On 2/17/2025 2:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Le lun. 17 févr. 2025, 22:53, Brent Meeker <[email protected]> a
écrit :
On 2/17/2025 5:15 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Feb 16, 2025 at 8:33 PM Brent Meeker
<[email protected]> wrote:
*>> There must be a fundamental reason why we can't make
predictions better than those allowed by HUP, and
self-locating uncertainty is that reason.*
/>//?? Most physicist think it's because conjugate operators
don't commute. /
*That is true but of no help whatsoever in explaining what's
actually going on. I want to know WHY momentum and position, and
energy and time are conjugate operators,I want to know why
Schrodinger's equation and the Born rule describe what we see in
experiments.
*
Seems more explanatory than "There are other worlds where....what?"
*>> If you make a record of which slit an electron went
through in the two slit experiment then you will not see
an interference pattern on a screen, but if you don't
make a record of it then you will. And if you make a
record and place the screen a light year away from the
slits but erase that record one second before the
electrons hit the screen then you will see an
interference pattern. This is certainly odd but it poses
no problem for Many Worlds.*
/> You only see the interference pattern after you know the
identity of the ones whose partner was erased. Otherwise you
could use it for faster than light signalling. /
*Also true but irrelevantto the subject at hand. *
/> But it's not subjective; the pattern is really there for
anyone to see./
*I agree, it's not subjective. Anyone could see the pattern,
anyone who is in a universe where _the information about which
slit the electrons went through before they hit the screen does
NOT exist_. But anyone in a universe _where that information DOES
exist_ will NOT see an interference pattern.*
/> //It's curious that you criticize QBism because it's not
explaining what's "actually going on"/
*I respect QBism, a.k.a. Shut Up And Calculate, more than
Copenhagen because it's more honest, it doesn't even attempt to
explain what's actually going on, Copenhagen attempts to do so
but the result is a ridiculous convoluted mess. Copenhagen fans
can't agree, even among themselves, what it's saying. *
/> but you like MWI versus spontaneous collapse//. Yet
spontaneous collapse does explain what's "actually going on". /
*That's why I think MWI and spontaneous collapse are the two
least bad quantum hypotheses that attempt to explain what's
actually happening; they may both be wrong but at least they're
clear and at least they try; the others just give up or hide
behind an opaque fog of bafflegab.*
It's a probability, so some things happen and others don't. A lot
clearer than "Everything happens and we don't know how it's a
probability."
Brent
Brent,
Sure, but saying “some things happen and others don’t” is just
labeling an outcome, not explaining why probability follows the Born
rule. If you take that as fundamental, fine, but that’s just
postulating rather than deriving it.
Once you accept probabilistic interpretation of Schoredinger's equation,
Gleason's theorem gives the Born rule for any number of possible
outcomes greater than two.
Brent
MWI doesn’t deny probability; it just reframes the question. The
challenge isn’t that “everything happens,” it’s understanding why
observers experience frequencies matching the Born rule. That’s what
self-locating uncertainty and measure attempts to address. If you
reject those approaches, what exactly is the alternative explanation
for why probabilities follow Born’s rule, rather than just assuming
they do?
Quentin
*
*
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