I noted the exception in my comment.
Brent
On 2/18/2025 2:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Brent,
Gleason’s theorem only works for Hilbert spaces with more than two
dimensions, so it doesn’t universally derive the Born rule. If the
Born rule were truly fundamental, it should emerge naturally even in
the two-outcome case. Instead, it must be assumed in single-world
views or justified through additional reasoning in MWI. Pointing to
Gleason’s theorem avoids addressing the very case where the issue is
most crucial.
Quentin
Le mar. 18 févr. 2025, 23:13, Brent Meeker <[email protected]> a
écrit :
On 2/17/2025 2:01 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Le lun. 17 févr. 2025, 22:53, Brent Meeker
<[email protected]> a écrit :
On 2/17/2025 5:15 AM, John Clark wrote:
On Sun, Feb 16, 2025 at 8:33 PM Brent Meeker
<[email protected]> wrote:
*>> There must be a fundamental reason why we can't
make predictions better than those allowed by HUP,
and self-locating uncertainty is that reason.*
/>//?? Most physicist think it's because conjugate
operators don't commute. /
*That is true but of no help whatsoever in explaining what's
actually going on. I want to know WHY momentum and position,
and energy and time are conjugate operators,I want to know
why Schrodinger's equation and the Born rule describe what
we see in experiments.
*
Seems more explanatory than "There are other worlds
where....what?"
*>> If you make a record of which slit an electron
went through in the two slit experiment then you
will not see an interference pattern on a screen,
but if you don't make a record of it then you will.
And if you make a record and place the screen a
light year away from the slits but erase that record
one second before the electrons hit the screen then
you will see an interference pattern. This is
certainly odd but it poses no problem for Many Worlds.*
/> You only see the interference pattern after you know
the identity of the ones whose partner was erased.
Otherwise you could use it for faster than light
signalling. /
*Also true but irrelevantto the subject at hand. *
/> But it's not subjective; the pattern is really there
for anyone to see./
*I agree, it's not subjective. Anyone could see the pattern,
anyone who is in a universe where _the information about
which slit the electrons went through before they hit the
screen does NOT exist_. But anyone in a universe _where that
information DOES exist_ will NOT see an interference pattern.*
/> //It's curious that you criticize QBism because it's
not explaining what's "actually going on"/
*I respect QBism, a.k.a. Shut Up And Calculate, more than
Copenhagen because it's more honest, it doesn't even attempt
to explain what's actually going on, Copenhagen attempts to
do so but the result is a ridiculous convoluted mess.
Copenhagen fans can't agree, even among themselves, what
it's saying. *
/> but you like MWI versus spontaneous collapse//. Yet
spontaneous collapse does explain what's "actually going
on". /
*That's why I think MWI and spontaneous collapse are the two
least bad quantum hypotheses that attempt to explain what's
actually happening; they may both be wrong but at least
they're clear and at least they try; the others just give up
or hide behind an opaque fog of bafflegab.*
It's a probability, so some things happen and others don't.
A lot clearer than "Everything happens and we don't know how
it's a probability."
Brent
Brent,
Sure, but saying “some things happen and others don’t” is just
labeling an outcome, not explaining why probability follows the
Born rule. If you take that as fundamental, fine, but that’s just
postulating rather than deriving it.
Once you accept probabilistic interpretation of Schoredinger's
equation, Gleason's theorem gives the Born rule for any number of
possible outcomes greater than two.
Brent
MWI doesn’t deny probability; it just reframes the question. The
challenge isn’t that “everything happens,” it’s understanding why
observers experience frequencies matching the Born rule. That’s
what self-locating uncertainty and measure attempts to address.
If you reject those approaches, what exactly is the alternative
explanation for why probabilities follow Born’s rule, rather than
just assuming they do?
Quentin
*
*
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