As I am french, I apologize if I don't write using a very clean english. I am system administrator, giving support to my users. I like dealing with the OS in-deep, so I am one of those that really dislike GUIs. I always used rpm as a command-line tool, reading man pages (that old troff !) in an xterm and ignoring rpm-disGUIsed. But I am really aware of the users' needs; I know that, when one doesn't know computers at all, Linux, Windows or else can quickly be overwhelming : I can see it almost every day in my company.
I think that we could say : who will use such tool ? I will use system administration tools, and I need them to be comfortable. A developer needs development tools, an environment, compilers, debuggers. An executive, a clerk will need a wordprocessor, a spreadsheet, databases, AND comfort in using that nasty box, a pretty wallpaper, a funny screensaver ( I like them too, but maybe with less importance :-) or he or she goes back to the pen and paper. Each tool must be designed with an accurate aim. Of course, problems arise when, for instance, an administrative tool must be planned for an administrator AND an end-user (everybody agrees ? pretty GUIs are intended to be used mainly by people not involved with the OS in-deep : that's to say almost everybody - well, by us administrators too, when we remember that we have been children and suddenly become childish) I personally often use tools heavily misconfigured, simply because sometimes I am lazy. I <myself> don't care because I am an old and experienced Unix user. But someone else would be horrified, and would not bear such conditions. About Mandrake GUIs, or RedHat GUIs, or all these emerging administering GUIs : my own opinion that I don't want to share with anybody, is that they are emerging : I have been afraid in the past, when they were not stable, while the GNU command-line tools were already strong and reliable. As I feel comfortable with my command-line, I don't look with much care to the news : maybe RedHat and Mandrake already have very strong graphic tools. Some day I will bother about it. So this is me, an individual, one of those very few techies. But if people enjoy the tools from Mandrake, the main battle is won ! Give them another choice than Windows ! Finally, two points : - such an opinion which was expressed about rpmdrake, for me is really important : GNU/Linux systems today aim to be designed for everybody, so we need to care particularly about an end-user which will maybe use GNU/Linux systems as he would with Windows (I don't mean the person who posted about rpmdrake - it's not so easy to express my ideas in english :-). - and here is the main point : from my point of vue, GNU/linux systems are trying to do what Windows did not do : trying to supply a traditional Unix system, robust and reliable, satisfying administrators and developpers; and in the same OS, a nice, pretty GUI, maybe sometimes Las Vegas flavored, so that we will try to take Microsoft out of business (THEY understood what is an end-user). How could everybody be satisfied ? How can we design tools that will be used by so different people ? I feel that discussions like this one are, and will be endless for years ... On Saturday 12 October 2002 22:38, Dale Huckeby wrote: > On Sat, 12 Oct 2002, Mark Weaver wrote: > > Piero Piutti wrote: > >> I have just joined this mailinglist and I've noticed that one of the > >> hottest topics is the "new look" rpmdrake. > >> > >> . . . > >> > >> Now it is very uncomfortable to use (at opposite of its predecessor > >> which was 100% user-friendly). > > > > Honestly, and I'm not attempting to chastise or malign anyone here for > > their opinions on this topic, but exactly is it thats so hard to use > > when it comes to the new presentation of rpmdrake? all the mods are in > > one place; they're easy to get to; they're presented in a clear and easy > > to understand manner which allows the user to know exactly what tool is > > being used to perform the task. The only thing I can possibly see is > > that they're no longer "together" accessible from *one* interface. > > > > I must conclude then that all this trouble is based solely on the fact > > that it's different, as in "not looking the same" thats causing all the > > heartache over this. The tools still work the same, they're all still > > using the same processes under the covers to get the job done. The added > > benefit here is that to do an update, install, uninstall, ( I can't > > remember now what the fourth things is) it's no longer necessary to have > > "more" stuff running then is actually necessary. > > Your "not looking the same" argument is baloney. I LIKE the look of the > new Mandrake Control Center. What I miss is being able to tab back and > forth between installed and uninstalled. As an end-user, not a programmer, > I wasn't bothered by having "more stuff running than is actually > necessary." I liked the convenience of that tabbing back and forth > FUNCTION. > > > Let me stress here. The _ONLY_ thing that has changed here *is* the > > look. nothing else that the user sees and/or uses has changed. All this > > railing on the programmers and decision-makers is groundless and > > childish. Notice here I am NOT labeling anyone who disagrees with my > > viewpoint as being childish. I only mean to point out that a mountain is > > being made out of a molehill. > > Being able to tab back and forth is to me a FUNCTION, not a look. And > it seems to me you ARE labelling the people who disagree with you as > childish. > > > Lets remember...this is _FREE_ software that is being released to the > > public with no strings attached. Instead of bitching and biting the > > hands that feed our appetites for more, newer, and better software we > > should be happy and enjoying the diversity in the progression of this > > distribution. They're not going to be able to totally please every > > Mandrake user each and every time the next level is released. > > It's not a matter of bitching and biting. It's a matter of saying what > we like and don't like. Surely that's not irrelevant to Mandrakesoft. > If enough people don't like something, it might behoove them to consider > changing it. As for the "no strings attached", last I heard Mandrakesoft > was in business to make money, and in fact has been in some difficulty > due to lack of same. In fact, as soon as that option was available I > ordered the 9.0 powerpack, despite the fact that all those packages are > available online and I have had 9.0 running on my computer for several > weeks. > > > We should maybe look for and focus on something that is in "real" need > > of improvement. > > > > I've seen this problem before. I'm a sysadmin/programmer where I work > > and every time we make a signifigant change to something it's never a > > good one in the eyes of the users as a whole. Plain and simple folks > > just don't like change that doesn't happen to make immediate sense to > > their way of thinking. However, when they're done bitchin and take the > > time to actually make use the new things or the changes they ultimately > > begin to see the logic and thought behind the change. > > Personally, I LIKE change. That's why I move to the next version as > soon as possible. That's why I run all the betas and release candidates > not on a spare, experimental machine, but on my one and only. I think > the same is true of many other people on this list. I think you're doing > me and them a disservice by ASSUMING they're against change instead of > taking their argument seriously and trying to understand what it is that > bothers them about the new rpmdrake. As an end-user I LOVE Mandrake 9.0 > but I don't like the new rpmdrake as well as its predecessor. no, it's > not THAT big a deal. I'm not going to go back to 8.2 over it. But I have > an opinion, one that's apparently shared by quite a few others on this > list, and I'm going to express it, your sneers notwithstanding. > > Dale Huckeby -- Robert Grasso @home --- UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things. -- Doug Gwyn
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