At 7:29 PM 09/19/02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
>I'm not following. Type in score breaks at spaces and hyphens. That is how
>it understands new syllables, no? You tell it. Can you re-ask this; I'm
>really not understanding the question you're posing. (Keep in mind I'm
>answering this question based on Finale's existing destructive lyrics
>editing.)
Proper behavior of hyphens relies on a correct understanding by Finale of
what the "next" syllable should be. If the syllable which follows the
hyphen is not found on a note later in the staff, the hyphen will not
appear properly. This may happen if extraneous syllables are introduced
into the text stream, as occurs in the example I cited (which now follows
quoted).
>>(For example, I enter four notes and type "hal-le-lu-jah" below them. Then
>>I notice the middle two notes are entered wrong. To fix them, suppose I use
>>Speedy Entry to delete them, and then re-enter two notes in insert mode.
>>Not the only way to do it, of course, but a reasonable possibility. Now I
>>see that I have deleted the "le-lu" syllables, so I re-type them. As a
>>result, I have lost the hyphen between "lu" and "jah". That's because the
>>original "le-lu-" are still in place in the text stream, which now reads
>>"hal-le-lu-le-lu-jah".)
>
>No.
No? I'm citing an example of how the current system works. The user
behavior described (entering lyrics, deleting the note, and then
re-entering) is not unreasonable, yet it results in a messed-up hyphen
which to the typical user will be inexplicable. If your system would allow
the same actions with different results, I don't see how.
> If the stream is interactive (it's gotta have *some* smarts) and based
>on a lyrics "pool", there are at least two useful options.
>1. The syllables disappear in both in-score and text stream. You must
>retype them. This is not desirable.
Agreed.
>2. The syllables change color and 'float' until you rubber-band reassign
>them or delete them. Most of the time such corrections will just mean
>reassignment.
OK. They still need to be deleted to fix the hyphen, but your
color/rubberband scheme is there to make this more evident in the UI. Good
enough.
>>- Can you use type-in-score to change the text to which a note is attached?
>
>Drag and attach. Those rubber bands again.
I didn't mean choose a different text to attach to. I mean, can you edit
the base text while in type-in-score mode? It sounds like you're saying
you can't. In that case, what happens when the type-in-score person notices
a typo and wants to fix it? Is he not allowed to?
>>If more than one note is attached to that syllable, would it not change
>>the text in all instances?
>
>No. The text is the text, from a pool. Any notes can be assigned to it. You
>could even reverse syllables (crossing 'rubber bands' and not changing the
>text) or drag-drop reverse syllables in the pool. The interaction of text
>and layout in Pagemaker is an interesting example of this, in how blocks of
>text can be broken, moved (etc.) and later re-attached, or the slip-editing
>features of video editors.
OK, fine, but the type-in-score people are going to want to be able to
select a text from score view and then alter it by typing. If this alters
the base text, and other notes are attached to the same base text, then
you've got a problem.
>>- Since lyrics are not assigned to notes, when you do Mass Copy, do the
>>lyrics not copy at all? Does Finale review the lyric text for assigned
>>notes and copy those assignments (ie, with the same result as currently)?
>>Or does Finale create new lyrics in the underlying text, and if so, where
>>are they placed in the text stream?
>
>There are a few solutions, and I can hear objections to any of them.
Yeah, I can hear them, too. That's why I think your proposed system
changes the underlying structure but doesn't get us any nearer to solving
the practical problems which are bothering people.
>There's no question that an arbitrary choice is made here. [...]
Ditto.
>If you really screw up and need to edit the master text in the pool, you
>have the same issue you'll have with any media pool -- you gotta go back
>and fix stuff. But Robert, I think, said that planning is a big part of it.
If one plans well, the current lyric system is fine. I think people are
suggesting that a good system ought to keep you out of trouble even if you
*aren't* careful.
>>Why make the drastic data
>>structure change if it makes little or no difference in dealing with the
>>existing problems?
>
>I'm suggesting these do solve quite a few existing problems. Make the text
>an element that is dipped into as needed. Let's say it has the features of
>hyphen and space defining syllables, with a (visual) nonbreaking space and
>hyphen pair as needed. Once you have that database, it's usable once, many
>times, or in any order, a piece at a time.
Isn't that the case right now? You can type text into the Edit Lyrics
window (on the template, even), and it's usable once or many times. I'm
not seeing how your suggestions make it any different.
>That way, assignments like italics, bold, font sizes, colors, etc., etc.,
>can be made as post-processing decisions, so to speak, without ever
>affecting the blocks in the lyrics pool.
Huh? I *want* to make text-style changes at the base text level. I do
that frequently, since one of the spacing techniques I sometimes employe is
to respace the music with lyrics set at a slightly smaller size and then
switch the lyrics back up to the size I prefer. Are you suggesting I have
to select all the individual syllables instead? That's why I like the Edit
Lyrics window, because I can edit large chunks of text at once in there.
>Using Finale's current ("old") paradigm, yes. Using the idea of
>non-destructive editing, no. The only time it is a true deletion is if it's
>deleted from the pool or the pool contents are seriously edited. The lack
>of planning can be damaging here to anyone's time and patience (if you've
>every tried to edit in Graphire Music Press, you know what I mean.)
So you're saying that you want type-in-score delete to work the same as
adjust-syllables delete (ie, delete the assignment and leave the base text
alone)? I have no problem with that, but I don't see why it requires
turning the data structure around.
>There are compromises. Adding a missing syllable in type-into-score mode
>would have to have some default condition on what happens.
Adding a missing syllable in type-in-score mode sounds like a very common
occurrance. If your default doesn't get it right, a lot of people are
going to be unhappy.
>It would require some non-Finale thinking to get past this. I hope I've
>explained enough of the concept of a 'lyrics pool' and non-destructive
>editing without having to dig deeper into the level of actually realizing
>some code! That I can't do anymore!
Unfortunately not. I think I'm still not understanding your scheme at all.
To me, it just sounds like you've taken the system that already exists and
turned it around so that notes attach to lyrics instead of lyrics attaching
to notes. I don't see what that accomplishes. I also see you adding little
features like rubberbands to the UI, which are fine, but they could be just
as easily added to the current system.
The whole thing sounds to me like it's an abstract database concept not
directly related to how one is likely to use lyrics in engraving music. I
want a system which is flexible enough to handle varied and unusual
situations, yes, but I don't want something so generic that it doesn't
directly address the basic issues of reconciling the logical and intuitive
ordering of lyrics (as they might appear in a libretto, perhaps) with the
position in which they must be placed into the score.
If as a side effect I can kludge barlines through the lyric function,
great, but I sure don't want the lyric function redesigned with that sort
of thing in mind.
>>Again, you're assuming the lyrics stay contiguous as intended. The problem
>>is that they don't.
>
>They don't have to. Two conditions need to be met:
>1. You can't destructively edit lyrics except in a specified text window
>within the text pool.
>2. All ownership needs to be shown (including elements which have
>disappeared, or elements which are floated awaiting assignment).
Obviously I'm just not understanding this at all. Let's back up. If a note
has a syllable and that syllable has a hyphen, how does the program know
where to draw the hyphen? Currently it does it by looking at the position
of the syllable which it recognizes as coming next in the text stream. If
there is no sequence of "nexts" in the text stream, what are you suggesting
instead?
mdl
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