At 6:30 PM 09/19/02, David W. Fenton wrote: >> If I were setting Mozart's Requiem, I'd enter the lyrics in their entirety, >> repeats and all (using copy-and-paste within the Edit Lyrics window where >> appropriate), then click-assign them all at once with option-click and >> shift as necessary. . . . > >You assume that the repetition is the same in all voices. It isn't.
No, I'm not assuming that at all. I enter the lyrics separately in a different verse for each voice. Where there is similarity, I may use copy-and-paste, but I certainly wouldn't click assign all four parts from the same verse. By habit, I never do that. Even on the occasions where the lyrics do match exactly, I'd rather keep then separate in case I want to make a change later. (I know the Mozart Requiem very well, by the way, having performed it once as a soloist, numerous times in the chorus, and once as rehearsal accompanist.) >You're lapsing into Mac-speak -- I have no idea what you mean by >OPTION-CLICK. I understand that it's one of the shift keys, but it is >peculiar to the Mac, and I don't know what it maps to on Windows, nor >what it does. Sorry. I don't know where the function is on PC. I'm sure it exists, but with a different keystroke. >It seems to me that Finale is prejudiced towards homophonic music, in >which there is one note per syllable and all the voices sing the text >at the same time. One might argue that homophonic music is inherently easier since it simplifies copying. Anyway, you're assuming that one is using the same text stream for all voices, which I think is the exception not the norm. I don't do that even for homophonic music. >For polyphonic, melismatic music, the assumption >breaks down. Which version of the text should I type in? The Soprano >version? The Alto version? The Tenor version? The Bass version? Each >has different repetitions and different melismas. You should enter them all separate. See, for example, the Coda sample file "De Lassus" which I cited earlier. >If you are recommending putting each in separately in EDIT LYRICS, >then I simply so no virtue over TYPE IN SCORE, except in terms of it >being "closer to the metal" in terms of the flaws in Finale's UI >implementation. That's one advantage, yes. I also prefer being able to do all the typing separate from the assigning. I find the multi-click-assign method to be faster than type in score for getting all the lyrics into place where I want them. Also, I like being able to view the text all in one place, organized into verses as I choose. And I like being able to type the lyrics in a format with line breaks and spacing to match the poetry, or whatever other visual scheme I find most helpful. >> I think the original assumption was that users who use Type In Score would >> never look at the Edit Lyrics windows at all. . . . > >A valid assumption, as until the point at which I had a problem, I >had not looked at it, ever. And I think a proper UI should not >*require* that you do so. I'll buy that. >I am not using an earlier version. My mistake. I was confused (and am still confused) by your description of syllables being ordered in the Edit Lyrics window to match the order they were entered. It is my understanding that that was only true in earlier versions. If you create a single bar with four quarter notes, and you type in four lyrics from right to left, do they not still appear in left-to-right order in the Edit Lyrics window? In MacFin 2002 they do. >In other words, you put them in in a manner that exhibits yet another >counterintuitive approach. Mozart's Requiem has only one "verse," and >the fact that you recommend putting it in as thought it does not >shows yet another adaptation to Finale's bollixed-up requirements. The only bollix here is that "verse" is a silly name for it. It's not a verse at all, it's a separate lyric compartment. I agree that "verse" is a dumb name, but complaining about it is about as meaningful as protesting, "But it's not a 'voice' at all, that's the piano part!" Are voices counterintuitive because they might be played by trumpets or guitars? "Layers" aren't really layers either, and many "articulations" aren't really articulations, etc, etc. If it makes you feel better, you can ignore the "verse" boxes altogether put all your lyrics in the areas labeled "section" instead. They behave exactly the same. >> I think that's how most users do it. That's how it's done on the Finale >> sample files. See, eg, "de Lassus", which incidentally also belies the two >> "assumptions" you suggested Finale makes about how lyrics will always be. > >I've not idea what your point of reference is. The CD which Coda ships has a folder named "Music Samples" which contains numerous sample files. The file I mentioned is in there. I am on MacFin 2002; perhaps it's different for WinFin 2003. >> That's fine if what displays in the score has an obvious order, but >> sometimes it doesn't. > >Sure it does! Everything in the top line of the score should come >first, followed by everything in the second line and so forth. Now who's making assumptions that all music follows a single, simple pattern? What if I've got a D.S. al Coda situation? I want the lyrics to be ordered as they'll be sung, not as they appear on the page. What if I've got an alternate lyric displayed below the regular one? What if I've used a separate staff for an optional cadenza? What if I've got a short divisi passage where I display separate syllables only for a few bars? What if I've got a verse/refrain situation where there are several lines stacked for the verse and one line centered for the refrain? What if I've got a sentence intoned on a single long note where I use a separate lyric item for some of the words in order to make it multi-deck? What if I've got pronunciation symbols which appear under some words but not others? What if I've got a short dialogue where two characters are sharing a staff with their lyrics at the same lyric baseline? Or contrariwise, what if the characters are on separate staves but I want the poetry to appear continuous? (An extreme example of this last would be the "Replying we sing, as one individual" section from G&S's Gondoliers, where it would be impossible to make the hyphens behave properly if the two voices aren't in interleaved in a single verse.) For most of these situations, I would employ separate verses. If you don't, then Finale has to make up an order for the texts, which may or may not turn out to be what was intuitive to you. But perhaps I now understand your point about lyrics appearing in the order they were entered. Maybe you are not referring to the order of the syllables within a voice at all, but only the order of the separate voices themselves. This didn't occur to me because it wouldn't have occurred to me to put all voices in the same verse. (Yes, yes, I know, "verses" aren't really verses.) Evidently, Finale expects them to be in separate verses as well, and that's why it didn't think to move your soprano part to the top. I suppose it might be adapted to rearrange the order them as you suggest. Better yet, the UI could be designed so that lyrics in different voices end up in different verses by default, since that will most likely be a better arrangement should you try to manipulate the lyrics later. >> As for next time, my recommendations are: (1) try out the >> option-click-assign and see if you like it. (2) Regardless of your input >> method, keep your separate parts in separate verses. You might have to >> alter a baseline, depending on what default document you're working from. > >Again, you are recommending doing things in the counterintuitive >ways. > >I understand that your advice is good. > >But you have to recognize that there's something fundamentally broken >in a program that requires you to jump through so many hoops to >accomplish a very straightforward task. OK, I'll recognize that the UI is broken, but I don't see that putting lyrics for different voices in different verses is such a big hoop. The text sung by the alto is separate from the text sung by the soprano; it does not follow after it consecutively. What is so counterintuitive about having them in separate compartments? Why is it intuitive to string them end to end? As for the multi-click-assignment, I was just suggesting it as a possibility which you might find more efficient once you've gotten used to it, very much like switching from Simple Entry to Speedy Entry. If you don't like it, fine. It is by no means required. Either choice is legitimate. Evidently, some users have been able to use type-in-score exclusively without getting caught in any of the traps. mdl _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
