Answer inline, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:18 AM > > > on 1/7/02 5:18 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to > >> sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here... > > > > How can you know? > > I hosted their project on my servers for the first couple of > years they were > alive and have had a boat load of conversations with Marc.
You sure seem to be well informed. =;o) > > I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I > > have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is > > not that obvious to me. > > > > I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that > > good. I do not like their documentation that much. > > > > JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for > > something with a lot of demand > > I think it is more than that though...they have worked to develop a > community and a LOT of interest. At least that is what their website > suggests. It could be a result of what you say, but Jakarta's > success isn't > necessarily because of our projects or our community...it is > because of the Apache name behind it. I think you overvalue Apache's name on that and undervalue the quality of what is done here. I "moved" here less than 2 years ago and I believe my POV is more impartial about that, since I was not immersed on Jakarta since day one as you did. If you want a detail account of how a newbie arrives and stays at Apache: The fact that Apache made the famous Apache Web server did not motivate me to get an immediate adept of its Java stuff at all. I thought: "So, they have Java. Having people that know how to make a Web server does not mean they know how to do anything else. Probably it is not even the same people." But since I had found Apache's Java page by accident, I decided to take a look. New to web development, JServ did not impress me at all. I wanted to use Java since Servlets and JSPs looked much better designed and easier to use than ISAPI Extensions and ASPs (yes... coming from the MS platform). Servlets looked even simpler and more powerful than using Delphi for the ISAPI extensions (I did not even consider using VC++). Since JServ looked so basic, I went on trying JRun (argh! it sure was buggy) and Sun's Java Web Server (argh! buggy and heavy and slooowww!!!). I took a look at a load of other Servlet engines. Some were way too expensive for what they were worth... or it was just not sure at all they were worth something at all. Others were too basic or fragile. Then I found out many people saying that JServ was very robust, found about Tomcat, tried both and started using JServ (and started getting into flame wars with Jon about TC 3.3 (o;= ). So I did not come here because of the Apache name, but because JServ had its own reputation for robustness and because Tomcat was almost there. (And I tested and played with Tomcat much more than with JServ to be sure of that.) It was the same with all other Java software and source code I am using. I tried to find alternatives everywhere, used Google, spent hours digging on Java publications and on source code. In the end most of what I use is Apache again. I once had a list of around 10 projects/project-families which Docs and Source I considered worth checking with some detail after a lot of pre-selection work (which already included taking a look at bits of code and reading a lot of docs). Among these project families were big monsters like JBoss, Exolab, Locomotive, etc. I even subscribed most JBoss lists and some from Exolab. In terms of the source code I adapted, everything I ended up using was Apache. Only recently did I integrate a couple of other classes. Only one non-Apache project taught me something really meaningful that I really used. (I learned a lot other stuff, of course. But I am not using it - most of it is JNDI and otherwise J2EE related.) In terms of libraries, lets take a look at my "lib" directory... Sun Java APIs, JDBC drivers, a couple of scripting engines (I recommend Pnuts - damn fast) and Apache stuff again! A Search Engine and a Logging API used in my company ended up coming to Apache - Log4J and Lucene. <btw-ot-remark> I currently use LogKit in my stuff, wrapped by (an adapted) Avalon's common logging interface. One size does not fit all and, unless one of them changes a lot, I would rather have both. </btw-ot-remark> That I ended up with Apache for almost everything as nothing to do with the Apache brand. It just has to do with: 1 - The quality of the product; 2 - This crazy and brilliant community. And yes, my eyes are not closed to the world outside Apache and I keep checking other tools and libraries. But I end up learning more about good "outside Apache" tools form Apache related sources than from all other sources together - which means that many others at Apache keep their eyes open to the "outside" world. > >, unlike Jakarta products like Tomcat or > > Velocity. > > Velocity isn't that successful compared with projects like Tomcat > or Struts. > There is only 500 people on the -user mailing list and 220 on the -dev > Velocity lists. Of course we don't have Sun marketing backing us though... > :-( LOL Velocity is young!!! It is the rising star of template engines. I sure know of a lot of people that moved from WebMacro to Velocity! (I did!) I used both WebMacro and FreeMarker in projects and I am sure that Velocity is the best! Hey Jon, me, after a huge flame war with you about TC3.3, moves to a project where you are very very active! Velocity HAS TO BE DAMN GOOD!!!!! > -jon Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
