Just a personal input/data point -- writing not as a Googler but as a "Python guru":-)
Currently writing the 3rd edition of Python in a Nutshell (in my copious personal time), I've recently finished the "serving HTTP" chapter (the book is already available in Early Release form at the O'Reilly website, check it out:-). For the purpose, I thoroughly tested lightweight frameworks (rich frameworks such as django, web2py, and the like, though I mentioned them, aren't really "my thang"). Specifically: falcon, flask, bottle, and webapp2. Of the four, webapp2 remains my favorite (admittedly I started out knowing it much better than the others, which may have biased me). Next in order of preference, falcon, bottle, flask -- all good, but the most popular, flask, is accruing so much extras that it barely qualifies as "lightweight" any more. If webapp2 becomes easy to offer patches for again, I'll spend personal time (once the Nutshell is finished -- give me a few more months!-) helping there -- indeed I'll volunteer to vet pull requests if gurus to vet them are needed -- to help keep out the kinds of deep integration with unrelated components (such as the admittedly superb templating framework jinjia2) which are fattening up flask:-(. I sure hope (very personal preference) that webapp2 isn't put out to pasture... should it be, I might either fork it, or give up and move to falcon for new projects (and maybe volunteer to help out on THAT framework). Again, just personal preferences -- but, ones based on almost 20 years' experience with Python (starting with a personal website project using CGI) and on being a Fellow of the PSF and a winner of the Frank Willison Memorial Award for contributions to Python:-). Alex On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Karl MacMillan <k...@strajillion.com> wrote: > > On Feb 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, 'Jon Parrott' via Google App Engine < > google-appengine@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > if you ask me, you really should just put webapp2 into maintenance only > mode and suggest people move on. There are no advantages over more popular > frameworks and plenty of downsides. > > In general we want to align with the Python community. Whether we update > our docs to point to Flask over webapp2 is currently a point of discussion > - but I'm personally for it. > > > If you don’t make the change (or maybe until), can I strongly suggest you > include some discussion that makes it clear the level of support for > webapp2. Like I said - I went with that option on the mistaken impression > that it was well supported by Google. That’s the _only_ thing that > irritates me about this whole situation. I believe the docs lead me down a > path without warning me of the true consequences. Even a basic “webapp2 is > community supported framework” description would make it clearer. > > No matter what we do there, there should be some way for people who are > currently using webapp2 currently to provide patches. > > > I’d certainly appreciate that. Despite my complaints, I’m not itching to > port all of my code off of webapp2 because it’s working fine. > > Karl > > Putting webapp2 in maintenance only mode is not currently our decision as > we do not own the package (it's a third-party package). If we do gain > ownership of it, we will likely put it into a community-supported model. > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:32 PM Karl MacMillan <k...@strajillion.com> > wrote: > >> On Feb 22, 2016, at 4:14 PM, 'Jon Parrott' via Google App Engine < >> google-appengine@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >> > Is that new? Last I looked I believe NDB was not supported. If I could >> suggest it would be helpful to use more specific terminology than Datastore >> on that page. >> >> It's not new as far as I know - ndb and db have traditionally be the way >> to access datastore in App Engine, so it's somewhat implied. I'll see if I >> can't make the docs a bit more clear there. >> >> >> Hmm - maybe I was wanting ndb in a non-compat python runtime. It’s been a >> while. >> >> > So - I’ll call your bluff. Tell me how to submit a patch for the issue >> I pointed to and I’ll happily do so. >> >> You make some excellent points. I will move webapp2 to github, take >> ownership of it, and I'll be happy to review and merge your patch as well >> as publish a new version of webapp2 to PyPI. This process takes some time, >> so I will update this list once that is done. >> >> >> Hah - fair enough. I’ll send you that patch when you’re ready. >> >> BUT - if you ask me, you really should just put webapp2 into maintenance >> only mode and suggest people move on. There are no advantages over more >> popular frameworks and plenty of downsides. >> >> One note - last I looked much of the session handling code was completely >> broken ( >> https://webapp-improved.appspot.com/api/webapp2_extras/sessions.html). I >> ended up just rolling my own after my initial bug report was ignored. >> >> Karl >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:01 PM Karl MacMillan <k...@strajillion.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On Feb 22, 2016, at 3:44 PM, 'Jon Parrott' via Google App Engine < >>> google-appengine@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> Are there plans to port over NDB for datastore access on managed VMs? >>>> >>> >>> There is on-going discussion about NDB for Cloud Datastore here >>> <https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/gcloud-python/issues/557#issuecomment-106952671>. >>> The tl;dr is that basically it's possible, it's planned, but its contingent >>> on the next release of the Cloud Datastore API and decoupling NDB from the >>> App Engine SDK. >>> >>> >>> Great. >>> >>> That being said, you can absolutely continue use NDB in Managed VMs by >>> using runtime: python-compat >>> <https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/managed-vms/python/migrating-an-existing-app> >>> . >>> >>> >>> Is that new? Last I looked I believe NDB was not supported. If I could >>> suggest it would be helpful to use more specific terminology than Datastore >>> on that page. >>> >>> Is webapp2 going to be deprecated >>>> >>> >>> There are no present plans that I'm aware of to deprecate webapp2. >>> Because webapp2 is a WSGI-compliant web framework and is not itself tied to >>> App Engine, you can use it in Standard, Managed VMs, and pretty much >>> anywhere else. It'll continue to work everywhere WSGI works. >>> >>> >>> Sure - I currently use it on GCE as well just to not use two frameworks. >>> But it is abandoned as far as I can tell - there are bugs that have not >>> been addressed in years. >>> >>> It's also an open-source project and patches are always welcome. >>> >>> >>> I’m sorry, but that’s a little disingenuous. As far as I can tell there >>> is _no_ activity on webapp2. I submitted a bug report that pointed to an >>> exact line of code that needed to be changed but there was no response ( >>> https://code.google.com/archive/p/webapp-improved/issues/102). It’s not >>> clear that there is any process to submit patches (contributing on the >>> website has no information - >>> https://webapp-improved.appspot.com/#contribute), there is no active >>> mailing list / discussion forum, the bug tracker is just an archive on >>> google code, and I can see no evidence that there is anyone other than a >>> Google employee that can commit. >>> >>> So - I’ll call your bluff. Tell me how to submit a patch for the issue I >>> pointed to and I’ll happily do so. >>> >>> Otherwise, please consider declaring that the project is abandoned and >>> stop pointing people to webapp2 in App Engine documentation since it’s a >>> dead end. >>> >>> Karl >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/google-appengine/HazEmXZRpiw/unsubscribe >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/AF77E164-0058-455F-9679-87FDB89C1926%40strajillion.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/AF77E164-0058-455F-9679-87FDB89C1926%40strajillion.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Google App Engine" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> >> To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/CAN6JEymD%2BEv3jnS7KRr6UN4zBwaHVogNuPrA78Wnq2%2B%2BXV%2B6TA%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/CAN6JEymD%2BEv3jnS7KRr6UN4zBwaHVogNuPrA78Wnq2%2B%2BXV%2B6TA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/google-appengine/HazEmXZRpiw/unsubscribe >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/6C7FB369-90C4-4866-9C24-7F21D1E68ADD%40strajillion.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/6C7FB369-90C4-4866-9C24-7F21D1E68ADD%40strajillion.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Google App Engine" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/CAN6JEyk4XWK9D35uF%2B_33q5y6iX8p%2BVx5YJ6q8sGUVvpNbqr_Q%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/CAN6JEyk4XWK9D35uF%2B_33q5y6iX8p%2BVx5YJ6q8sGUVvpNbqr_Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Google App Engine" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to google-appengine@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/6577D566-C74D-41C5-AD75-B479B8B64246%40strajillion.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-appengine/6577D566-C74D-41C5-AD75-B479B8B64246%40strajillion.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. 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