hi aftab, it is not based on 'pure' data of brutality we support/ oppose an issue. it is not based on the difference between the number of people killed by indian army and number of people killed by terrorists we take stand in kashmir issue.
it is the discourse on certain issue determines our stand. one supports indian army in kashmir is also part of the same discourse. nobody justify killings and violence unless it is in accordance with one's discursive position. Ahmed On 5/5/08, Afthab Ellath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > As I have already clarified to Salim, I never blamed anybody in this group > for his/her silence in the Kashmir Issue, but the attempt was, as Ranju > pointed out, to initiate a dialogue on a hidden issue... The fact of the > matter was the silence of the mainstream media and intellectuals, which > discuss Tibet, Burma, Iraq and Palestine in detail, i.e. when the problem is > not 'ours' and somebody else's and remain silent when question is raised > about the system that we ourselves are also responsible for... > > *If one doesn't know any thing at all about the 60 year old > Kashmir problem there are chances that one is an Islamophobe... If one > doesn't talk about cast violence at all one might be part of that violence > as well.. > > *I still believe that I didn't blame anyone for their lack of knowledge on > Kashmir issue or cast violence with this comment... We are not talking here > about the vast majority of the population, who are alienated from the > intellectual and social domain due to illiteracy, lack of resources, and > many many other historical and socio-political reasons.. It was about the > elites like me, who have these resources and time and is always in public > attention because of their claim of knowledge in the events around the > world... Is there not even a slight chance that one be an "Islamophobe" or > "Castist", even while one is not aware of that, when one (described with > the above attributes) makes this claim? We are talking about 80000+ extra > judicial killings and innumerous illegal bloody torture... and about > centuries of old and one of the most oppressive and repressive social system > here... I have sufficient reasons to be suspicious from my own > experiences... > > If a Pakistani or Bangladesi Muslim in similar circumstances claims that > he/she is not aware of the anti-blasphemy laws and the repression of the > Ahmadias and other minority groups (Hindus, Christians etc) or Taslima > Nasreen respectively, I believe, a minority group member there, will have > reasons to start a dialogue with such a person, with a suspicion of him/her > as "Islamo-Fascist" ... > > But in both the circumstances one can't be absolutely sure that one's > suspicion is true... But I think he may start with such an assumption based > on one's experience... > > > Ahmed, I agree with you that knowledge and active participation in a > discussion won't grant anybody any positions and with the membership in the > elites, who enjoys all the comforts of life, I have no intention to make > even a slightest claim regarding my middle class life... Nor with our > participation in the discussions or with our silence, we won't be able to > understand the pain of the mental and physical torture as far as we are not > subjected to it... But I think that will not still prevent us from talking > about our world... > > > Regards > Afthab > > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:08 AM, ahmed rafeek j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > *If one doesn't know any thing at all about the 60 year old > > Kashmir problem there are chances that one is an Islamophobe... If one > > doesn't talk about cast violence at all one might be part of that violence > > as well.. * > > > > i was questioning this: > > > > the more knowledge and active participation in discussions won't grant a > > position to one to blame others for the their silence or ignorance. > > > > Ahmed > > > > * * > > On 5/5/08, ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > i feel > > > it is not the question of how better one is placed or not. > > > attempt to initiate a debate on an issue need not be curbed by > > branding it > > > asa blame > > > by raising the issue of silence of mainstream discourse one is > > > critically/politically particiapting/initiating a debate. > > > blame it or not it is through blame that it develops...thgh onr cannot > > > escape the blame of being blmng! > > > > > > > > > On 5/5/08, ahmed rafeek j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > discourses determine one's position. not the opposite. we all, like > > > > those who are having no knowledge on kashmir, caste system and etc, > > > > are forced to take part in the same power mechanism of discourse. > > > > > > > > more dissident knowledge and active participation in greenyouth > > > > discussion won't deconstitute one's 'self'. nor do the silence. > > nobody > > > > is having the benevolence of granted space free from power mechanism > > > > in the name of her pro-kashmir/ pro-dalit stand. > > > > > > > > i dont consider myself any way better based on my 'enlightened' > > > > position on kashmir or dalit issues than my many friends who are > > less/ > > > > not enlightened, unless i am actively participated in any poltical > > > > struggle that might destabilize my 'self' that constituted by the > > > > power structure. > > > > > > > > so, think think n think before u blame others for their silence and > > > > lack of knowledge. > > > > > > > > Ahmed > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > There is absolutely no exhortation on anyone to comment on > > anything. > > > > > All that I personally implied is that only people who are on the > > giving > > > end > > > > > of the hegemonic spectrum usually afford silences. There are many > > who > > > claim > > > > > based on their experience (including the Govt of India at WCAR in > > Durban > > > and > > > > > afterwards too), that India pro-actively indulges in dalits and > > muslims > > > (the > > > > > anti-reservation scenes). These so-called "indulgences" at times > > though > > > are > > > > > well-intentioned are evidence of the structural violencee, (e.g- > > your > > > > > addressing Afthab as Sahib based on a presumption because his name > > is > > > > > Afthab). There are others who claim that caste, communal, gender > > or > > > other > > > > > hegemonies do not exist in their lives. Then there are others who > > are > > > > > silent!!!! > > > > > There is a huge difference between violence perpetrated within a > > power > > > > > matrix by people at different ends of the matrix - this is why for > > > instance > > > > > in criminal jurisprudence constitutional sagfeguards are given to > > the > > > > > accused, however horrendous the society may percieve the crime to > > be - > > > > > because of the power differential between an individual and the > > state. > > > In > > > > > that vein, there is a difference between RSS exhortation on > > Muslims to > > > prove > > > > > their patriotism and this thread on "silences" > > > > > I think its time for me to remain silent now and let others > > comment > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > > > On 03/05/2008, Murali K Warier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I didn't say that I don't know or have no comments, if that is > > what > > > you > > > > > imply, but take any issue, there are sufficient number of 'well > > > educated', > > > > > 'computer literate' people who do not know a thing about it. This > > is > > > from > > > > > personal experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't find any difference between 'you have to comment, else > > you are > > > an > > > > > Islamophobe' and the RSS's exhortation to Muslims that they need > > to > > > 'prove > > > > > their patriotism', or else they are traitors. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Murali > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Bobby Kunhu < > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we do not need to invoke the spirit of stalin or hitler, if > > one > > > claims > > > > > any part in the "indian" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people what > > they > > > don't > > > > > want to hear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Bobby Kunhu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. 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