One can support/oppose an issue... Claiming ignorance, when one very well knows that, is different...
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 3:25 PM, ahmed rafeek j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > hi aftab, > it is not based on 'pure' data of brutality we support/ oppose an issue. > it is not based on the difference between the number of people killed by > indian army and number of people killed by terrorists we take stand in > kashmir issue. > > it is the discourse on certain issue determines our stand. one supports > indian army in kashmir is also part of the same discourse. > > nobody justify killings and violence unless it is in accordance with one's > discursive position. > > Ahmed > > > > > > On 5/5/08, Afthab Ellath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > As I have already clarified to Salim, I never blamed anybody in this > > group for his/her silence in the Kashmir Issue, but the attempt was, as > > Ranju pointed out, to initiate a dialogue on a hidden issue... The fact of > > the matter was the silence of the mainstream media and intellectuals, which > > discuss Tibet, Burma, Iraq and Palestine in detail, i.e. when the problem is > > not 'ours' and somebody else's and remain silent when question is raised > > about the system that we ourselves are also responsible for... > > > > *If one doesn't know any thing at all about the 60 year old > > Kashmir problem there are chances that one is an Islamophobe... If one > > doesn't talk about cast violence at all one might be part of that violence > > as well.. > > > > *I still believe that I didn't blame anyone for their lack of knowledge > > on Kashmir issue or cast violence with this comment... We are not talking > > here about the vast majority of the population, who are alienated from the > > intellectual and social domain due to illiteracy, lack of resources, and > > many many other historical and socio-political reasons.. It was about the > > elites like me, who have these resources and time and is always in public > > attention because of their claim of knowledge in the events around the > > world... Is there not even a slight chance that one be an "Islamophobe" or > > "Castist", even while one is not aware of that, when one (described with > > the above attributes) makes this claim? We are talking about 80000+ extra > > judicial killings and innumerous illegal bloody torture... and about > > centuries of old and one of the most oppressive and repressive social system > > here... I have sufficient reasons to be suspicious from my own > > experiences... > > > > If a Pakistani or Bangladesi Muslim in similar circumstances claims that > > he/she is not aware of the anti-blasphemy laws and the repression of the > > Ahmadias and other minority groups (Hindus, Christians etc) or Taslima > > Nasreen respectively, I believe, a minority group member there, will have > > reasons to start a dialogue with such a person, with a suspicion of him/her > > as "Islamo-Fascist" ... > > > > But in both the circumstances one can't be absolutely sure that one's > > suspicion is true... But I think he may start with such an assumption based > > on one's experience... > > > > > > Ahmed, I agree with you that knowledge and active participation in a > > discussion won't grant anybody any positions and with the membership in the > > elites, who enjoys all the comforts of life, I have no intention to make > > even a slightest claim regarding my middle class life... Nor with our > > participation in the discussions or with our silence, we won't be able to > > understand the pain of the mental and physical torture as far as we are not > > subjected to it... But I think that will not still prevent us from talking > > about our world... > > > > > > Regards > > Afthab > > > > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:08 AM, ahmed rafeek j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > *If one doesn't know any thing at all about the 60 year old > > > Kashmir problem there are chances that one is an Islamophobe... If one > > > doesn't talk about cast violence at all one might be part of that violence > > > as well.. * > > > > > > i was questioning this: > > > > > > the more knowledge and active participation in discussions > > > won't grant a position to one to blame others for the their silence or > > > ignorance. > > > > > > Ahmed > > > > > > * * > > > On 5/5/08, ranju radha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > i feel > > > > it is not the question of how better one is placed or not. > > > > attempt to initiate a debate on an issue need not be curbed by > > > branding it > > > > asa blame > > > > by raising the issue of silence of mainstream discourse one is > > > > critically/politically particiapting/initiating a debate. > > > > blame it or not it is through blame that it develops...thgh onr > > > cannot > > > > escape the blame of being blmng! > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/5/08, ahmed rafeek j <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > discourses determine one's position. not the opposite. we all, > > > like > > > > > those who are having no knowledge on kashmir, caste system and > > > etc, > > > > > are forced to take part in the same power mechanism of discourse. > > > > > > > > > > more dissident knowledge and active participation in greenyouth > > > > > discussion won't deconstitute one's 'self'. nor do the silence. > > > nobody > > > > > is having the benevolence of granted space free from power > > > mechanism > > > > > in the name of her pro-kashmir/ pro-dalit stand. > > > > > > > > > > i dont consider myself any way better based on my 'enlightened' > > > > > position on kashmir or dalit issues than my many friends who are > > > less/ > > > > > not enlightened, unless i am actively participated in any poltical > > > > > struggle that might destabilize my 'self' that constituted by the > > > > > power structure. > > > > > > > > > > so, think think n think before u blame others for their silence > > > and > > > > > lack of knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > Ahmed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > There is absolutely no exhortation on anyone to comment on > > > anything. > > > > > > All that I personally implied is that only people who are on the > > > giving > > > > end > > > > > > of the hegemonic spectrum usually afford silences. There are > > > many who > > > > claim > > > > > > based on their experience (including the Govt of India at WCAR > > > in Durban > > > > and > > > > > > afterwards too), that India pro-actively indulges in dalits and > > > muslims > > > > (the > > > > > > anti-reservation scenes). These so-called "indulgences" at times > > > though > > > > are > > > > > > well-intentioned are evidence of the structural violencee, (e.g- > > > your > > > > > > addressing Afthab as Sahib based on a presumption because his > > > name is > > > > > > Afthab). There are others who claim that caste, communal, gender > > > or > > > > other > > > > > > hegemonies do not exist in their lives. Then there are others > > > who are > > > > > > silent!!!! > > > > > > There is a huge difference between violence perpetrated within a > > > power > > > > > > matrix by people at different ends of the matrix - this is why > > > for > > > > instance > > > > > > in criminal jurisprudence constitutional sagfeguards are given > > > to the > > > > > > accused, however horrendous the society may percieve the crime > > > to be - > > > > > > because of the power differential between an individual and the > > > state. > > > > In > > > > > > that vein, there is a difference between RSS exhortation on > > > Muslims to > > > > prove > > > > > > their patriotism and this thread on "silences" > > > > > > I think its time for me to remain silent now and let others > > > comment > > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > > > > > On 03/05/2008, Murali K Warier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I didn't say that I don't know or have no comments, if that is > > > what > > > > you > > > > > > imply, but take any issue, there are sufficient number of 'well > > > > educated', > > > > > > 'computer literate' people who do not know a thing about it. > > > This is > > > > from > > > > > > personal experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't find any difference between 'you have to comment, else > > > you are > > > > an > > > > > > Islamophobe' and the RSS's exhortation to Muslims that they need > > > to > > > > 'prove > > > > > > their patriotism', or else they are traitors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > Murali > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Bobby Kunhu < > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we do not need to invoke the spirit of stalin or hitler, if > > > one > > > > claims > > > > > > any part in the "indian" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Liberty, if it means anything, is the right to tell people > > > what they > > > > don't > > > > > > want to hear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Bobby Kunhu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Regards Afthab Ellath --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. 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