I think you missed the sarcasm. -----Original Message----- From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry Jeffery Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:53 AM To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine
They use their tools to make their games to make lots of money and game of the year... again. 2009/8/6 botman <botman.hlcod...@gmail.com>: > How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our > helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and > need our help. > > On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: >> They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of >> scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. >> >> garry >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nick<xnicho...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<saul.renni...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Seconded! >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> - Saul. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman<lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>>> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. >>>>> >>>>> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including >>>>> all my hard-earned research in this one? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris >>>>> <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work >>>>> fully >>>>>> with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >>>>>> lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had >>>>> trouble >>>>>> on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that >>>>> Faceposer >>>>>> requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely >>>>> lemons, >>>>>> not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry >>>>>> Pidcock >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>> >>>>>> Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper >>>>>> that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very >>>>> visual >>>>>> language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >>>>>> translated into complex hlsl). >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "Harry Jeffery"<harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming"< >>>>> hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. >>>>> =[ >>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald<voo...@voogru.com>: >>>>>>>> I like this one better. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >>>>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my >>>>>>>> screen!... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock<haz...@tpg.com.au> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >>>>>>>>> implemented >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> new feature. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> From: "Andrew Ritchie"<gotta...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >>>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >>>>>>>>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >>>>>>>>> Personally >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> see 4 different ones here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1) Engine features >>>>>>>>>> 2) Tools Capabilities >>>>>>>>>> 3) Tools Availability >>>>>>>>>> 4) Tools Presentation >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >>>>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's >>>>>>>>>> important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are >>>>>>>>>> modding >>>>>>>>>> their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve >>>>> a >>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> money and brought huge success but they were also developed around >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> mods >>>>>>>>>> to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an >>>>>>>> engine >>>>>>>>>> change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a >>>>> drastic >>>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>>> for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >>>>>>>>>> underway >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things >>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>>> of work, if not at all. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >>>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just >>>>> use >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >>>>>> converter >>>>>>>>>> written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a >>>>> specific >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >>>>>>>>>> Especially >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> tool >>>>>>>>>> can then use. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be >>>>> open >>>>>>>>>> source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at >>>>>>>>>> Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>> projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >>>>>> editor >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better >>>>> designed >>>>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>>>> However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of >>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>> benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around >>>>>> and >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have >>>>>>>>>> bugs >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and >>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>> example? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool >>>>> with >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> UI >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >>>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>>>> the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I >>>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what >>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> need. >>>>>>>>>> It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>> that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around >>>>> in >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> hex >>>>>>>>>> or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the >>>>>>>>>> technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors >>>>> hiding >>>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>>> the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the >>>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might >>>>> be, >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for >>>>>>>>> those. >>>>>>>>>> Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it >>>>>> up, >>>>>>>>>> HLMV >>>>>>>>>> too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about >>>>> simplifying >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>> lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was >>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious >>>>>>>>> reason. >>>>>>>>>> The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >>>>>> that >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>> about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>> develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to >>>>>>>>>> tackle. >>>>>>>>>> Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a >>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are >>>>> examples >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys >>>>>>>>>> mod >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >>>>>>>>>> falling >>>>>>>>>> back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> Valve >>>>>>>>>> games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears<benmea...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> Jed said 100%. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> great, thanks! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed<j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>> for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that >>>>> StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>>> supports. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >>>>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>>> it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >>>>>>>>>>>> automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled >>>>> against >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to >>>>> have >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >>>>>> Therefore >>>>>>>>>>>> SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> 3D >>>>>>>>>>>> app users themselves. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as >>>>> DAE, >>>>>>>>>>>> FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>>> compiler >>>>>>>>>>>> (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >>>>>> *addition* >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So why should they do it? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content >>>>>>>>>>>> out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example >>>>> DAE/FBX >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>> choice to create content. >>>>>>>>>>>> - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> format in the compiler. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >>>>>>>>>>>> write >>>>>>>>>>>> it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, >>>>> et >>>>>>>> al. >>>>>>>>>>>> to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once >>>>>>>>>>>> asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>> that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >>>>>>>>>>>> invested >>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >>>>>>>>>>>> Source >>>>>>>>>>>> license for their title was hanging on the availability of >>>>>> plug-ins >>>>>>>>>>>> for Max. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels >>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>> Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider >>>>> adoption >>>>>>>>>>>> which might result in more licensees and from a modders >>>>>>>>>>>> perspective, >>>>>>>>>>>> more people getting into it and maybe making the next >>>>>>>>>>>> CSS/TF2/Portal >>>>>>>>>>>> that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >>>>>> (and >>>>>>>>>>>> adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >>>>>>>>>>>> - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy >>>>>>>>>>>> mxtk >>>>>>>>>>>> GUI from Mete's HLMV. >>>>>>>>>>>> - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >>>>>> phase >>>>>>>>>>>> out SMD, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source >>>>> code >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from >>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>>> partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >>>>>>>>>>>> - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >>>>>>>> window >>>>>>>>>>>> like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible >>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> that developers can add support for model rendering in other >>>>> apps. >>>>>>>>>>>> - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end >>>>>>>>>>>> users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >>>>>> welcoming >>>>>>>>>>>> experience to inspire the next great ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but you get the general idea... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Jed >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez<bs.v...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh<minh...@telus.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>>>> meshes, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >>>>>> from >>>>>>>> 3d >>>>>>>>>>>> model / >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animation -> .mdl ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where >>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>> combine >>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple .smds to make an animation? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >>>>>>>>>>>>> formidable, >>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>> leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't >>>>>>>>>>> tell >>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>> you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >>>>>> having >>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>> with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> combining >>>>>>>>>>>>> animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still >>>>> pisses >>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>>> artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but >>>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>>>>>>>> they haven't replaced it entirely. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>> with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it >>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>>> of a backwards way. >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >>>>>>>>> 07/24/09 >>>>>>>>>> 18:24:00 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >>>>>> 07/25/09 >>>>>>> 18:01:00 >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
