Seconded! Thanks, - Saul.
2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman <lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> > I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. > > Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including > all my hard-earned research in this one? > > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris > <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: > > > My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work > fully > > with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the > > lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had > trouble > > on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that > Faceposer > > requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. > > > > I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely > lemons, > > not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D > > > > Chris > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry > > Pidcock > > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM > > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > > > Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper > > that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very > visual > > language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then > > translated into complex hlsl). > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > From: "Harry Jeffery" <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> > > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM > > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < > hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > > > > I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. > =[ > > > > > > 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <voo...@voogru.com>: > > >> I like this one better. > > >> > > >> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > > >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly > > >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM > > >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > > >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > >> > > >> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my > > >> screen!... > > >> > > >> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> > > >> > > >>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully > > >>> implemented > > >>> a > > >>> new feature. > > >>> > > >>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt > > >>> > > >>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. > > >>> > > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > > >>> From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> > > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM > > >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" > > >>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > > >>> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > >>> > > >>> > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. > > >>> Personally > > >>> > I > > >>> > see 4 different ones here. > > >>> > > > >>> > 1) Engine features > > >>> > 2) Tools Capabilities > > >>> > 3) Tools Availability > > >>> > 4) Tools Presentation > > >>> > > > >>> > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new > > >>> > features > > >>> or > > >>> > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's > > >>> > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games > > need > > >>> > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are > > >>> > modding > > >>> > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve > a > > >> lot > > >>> > of > > >>> > money and brought huge success but they were also developed around > > the > > >>> > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR > > these > > >>> > mods > > >>> > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an > > >> engine > > >>> > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add > the > > >>> > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to > > >>> > really > > >>> > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a > drastic > > >>> > change > > >>> > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get > > >>> > underway > > >>> > or > > >>> > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things > without > > >>> > a > > >>> > lot > > >>> > of work, if not at all. > > >>> > > > >>> > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I > > >> don't > > >>> > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically > > >>> > allowing > > >>> > the > > >>> > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just > use > > >>> > a > > >>> > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and > > converter > > >>> > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a > specific > > >> and > > >>> > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. > > >>> > Especially > > >>> if > > >>> > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that > > the > > >>> > tool > > >>> > can then use. > > >>> > > > >>> > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be > open > > >>> > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at > > >>> > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally > > >>> > personal > > >>> > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own > > editor > > >>> and > > >>> > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better > designed > > >>> > tool. > > >>> > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of > > any > > >>> > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around > > and > > >> do > > >>> > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have > > >>> > bugs > > >>> > but > > >>> > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and > lead > > >>> > by > > >>> > example? > > >>> > > > >>> > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool > with > > a > > >> UI > > >>> > or > > >>> > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is > > >> balancing > > >>> > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I > > >>> > feel > > >>> it > > >>> > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the > > >>> > way > > >>> it > > >>> > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what > they > > >>> > need. > > >>> > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who > > would > > >>> > need > > >>> > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back > to > > >>> > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around > in > > a > > >>> hex > > >>> > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the > > >>> > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors > hiding > > >> away > > >>> > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the > > >>> > user > > >>> > and > > >>> > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might > be, > > >>> > at > > >>> > this > > >>> > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for > > >>> those. > > >>> > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it > > up, > > >>> > HLMV > > >>> > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about > simplifying > > >> and > > >>> > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development > > >> could > > >>> > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious > > about > > >>> > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. > > >>> > > > >>> > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was > that > > >>> > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept > > >> would > > >>> > be > > >>> > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious > > >>> reason. > > >>> > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something > > that > > >> is > > >>> > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious > > >> enough > > >>> > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way > > >>> > users > > >>> > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to > > >>> > tackle. > > >>> > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a > bit > > >>> > of > > >>> a > > >>> > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are > examples > > >>> > of > > >>> > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys > > >>> > mod > > >>> is > > >>> > a > > >>> > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding > > >>> > the > > >>> > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just > > >>> > falling > > >>> > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best > > for > > >>> > Valve > > >>> > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. > > >>> > > > >>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears <benmea...@gmail.com> > > >>> > wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree > > >>> >> with > > >>> >> what > > >>> >> Jed said 100%. > > >>> >> > > >>> >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? > > >>> >> > > >>> >> great, thanks! > > >>> >> > > >>> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding > > support > > >>> >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that > StudioMDL > > >>> >> > supports. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from > > and > > >>> >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to > > >>> >> > support > > >>> >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not > > >>> >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled > against > > >> the > > >>> >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to > have > > >> one > > >>> >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. > > Therefore > > >>> >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by > > the > > >> 3D > > >>> >> > app users themselves. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as > DAE, > > >>> >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL > > >>> >> > compiler > > >>> >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in > > *addition* > > >> to > > >>> >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > So why should they do it? > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content > > >>> >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example > DAE/FBX > > >>> >> > is > > >>> >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. > > >>> >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of > > their > > >>> >> > choice to create content. > > >>> >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support > > the > > >>> >> > format in the compiler. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that > > >>> >> > write > > >>> >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, > et > > >> al. > > >>> >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once > > >>> >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 > > >> because > > >>> >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had > > >>> >> > invested > > >>> >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have > to > > >>> >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a > > >>> >> > Source > > >>> >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of > > plug-ins > > >>> >> > for Max. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels > like > > >>> >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider > adoption > > >>> >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders > > >>> >> > perspective, > > >>> >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next > > >>> >> > CSS/TF2/Portal > > >>> >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a > > >>> >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - > > not > > >>> >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start > > (and > > >>> >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) > > >>> >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy > > >>> >> > mxtk > > >>> >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. > > >>> >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually > > phase > > >>> >> > out SMD, etc. > > >>> >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source > code > > >> for > > >>> >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from > even > > >>> >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. > > >>> >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D > > >> window > > >>> >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible > so > > >>> >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other > apps. > > >>> >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end > > >>> >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm > > welcoming > > >>> >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > - Jed > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: > > >>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> > > wrote: > > >>> >> > > > > >>> >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates > > >>> >> > >> reference > > >>> >> > meshes, > > >>> >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight > > from > > >> 3d > > >>> >> > model / > > >>> >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? > > >>> >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where > you > > >>> >> > >> can > > >>> >> > combine > > >>> >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? > > >>> >> > > > > >>> >> > > > > >>> >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are > > >>> >> > > formidable, > > >>> >> > > it > > >>> >> > still > > >>> >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. > > >>> >> > > Don't > > >>> >> tell > > >>> >> > me > > >>> >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly > > having > > >>> >> > problems > > >>> >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows > > for > > >>> >> > combining > > >>> >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still > pisses > > >>> >> > > me > > >>> >> > > off > > >>> >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach > > of > > >>> >> > > most > > >>> >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but > I'm > > >>> >> > surprised > > >>> >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. > > >>> >> > > > > >>> >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too > > many > > >>> >> > problems > > >>> >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it > does > > >>> >> > > it > > >>> >> > > in > > >>> >> a > > >>> >> > bit > > >>> >> > > of a backwards way. > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > >> archives, > > >>> >> > please visit: > > >>> >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > >>> >> archives, > > >>> >> please visit: > > >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > > >>> > please visit: > > >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. > > >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > >>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: > > >>> 07/24/09 > > >>> > 18:24:00 > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > >>> please visit: > > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > >> please visit: > > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > >> please visit: > > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: > > 07/25/09 > > > 18:01:00 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
