I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject.
On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<saul.renni...@gmail.com> wrote: > Seconded! > > Thanks, > - Saul. > > > 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman <lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> > >> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. >> >> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including >> all my hard-earned research in this one? >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris >> <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: >> >> > My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work >> fully >> > with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >> > lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had >> trouble >> > on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that >> Faceposer >> > requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >> > >> > I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely >> lemons, >> > not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> > [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry >> > Pidcock >> > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >> > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> > >> > Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper >> > that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very >> visual >> > language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >> > translated into complex hlsl). >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------- >> > From: "Harry Jeffery" <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> >> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >> > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" < >> hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> > >> > > I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. >> =[ >> > > >> > > 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <voo...@voogru.com>: >> > >> I like this one better. >> > >> >> > >> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> > >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly >> > >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >> > >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >> > >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> > >> >> > >> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my >> > >> screen!... >> > >> >> > >> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> >> > >> >> > >>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >> > >>> implemented >> > >>> a >> > >>> new feature. >> > >>> >> > >>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >> > >>> >> > >>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >> > >>> >> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- >> > >>> From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> >> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >> > >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >> > >>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >> > >>> > >> > >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> > >>> >> > >>> > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >> > >>> Personally >> > >>> > I >> > >>> > see 4 different ones here. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > 1) Engine features >> > >>> > 2) Tools Capabilities >> > >>> > 3) Tools Availability >> > >>> > 4) Tools Presentation >> > >>> > >> > >>> > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >> > >>> > features >> > >>> or >> > >>> > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's >> > >>> > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >> > need >> > >>> > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are >> > >>> > modding >> > >>> > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve >> a >> > >> lot >> > >>> > of >> > >>> > money and brought huge success but they were also developed around >> > the >> > >>> > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >> > these >> > >>> > mods >> > >>> > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an >> > >> engine >> > >>> > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add >> the >> > >>> > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >> > >>> > really >> > >>> > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a >> drastic >> > >>> > change >> > >>> > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >> > >>> > underway >> > >>> > or >> > >>> > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things >> without >> > >>> > a >> > >>> > lot >> > >>> > of work, if not at all. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I >> > >> don't >> > >>> > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >> > >>> > allowing >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just >> use >> > >>> > a >> > >>> > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >> > converter >> > >>> > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a >> specific >> > >> and >> > >>> > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >> > >>> > Especially >> > >>> if >> > >>> > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that >> > the >> > >>> > tool >> > >>> > can then use. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be >> open >> > >>> > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at >> > >>> > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >> > >>> > personal >> > >>> > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >> > editor >> > >>> and >> > >>> > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better >> designed >> > >>> > tool. >> > >>> > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of >> > any >> > >>> > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around >> > and >> > >> do >> > >>> > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have >> > >>> > bugs >> > >>> > but >> > >>> > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and >> lead >> > >>> > by >> > >>> > example? >> > >>> > >> > >>> > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool >> with >> > a >> > >> UI >> > >>> > or >> > >>> > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >> > >> balancing >> > >>> > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I >> > >>> > feel >> > >>> it >> > >>> > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the >> > >>> > way >> > >>> it >> > >>> > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what >> they >> > >>> > need. >> > >>> > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >> > would >> > >>> > need >> > >>> > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back >> to >> > >>> > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around >> in >> > a >> > >>> hex >> > >>> > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the >> > >>> > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors >> hiding >> > >> away >> > >>> > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the >> > >>> > user >> > >>> > and >> > >>> > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might >> be, >> > >>> > at >> > >>> > this >> > >>> > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for >> > >>> those. >> > >>> > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it >> > up, >> > >>> > HLMV >> > >>> > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about >> simplifying >> > >> and >> > >>> > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development >> > >> could >> > >>> > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >> > about >> > >>> > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was >> that >> > >>> > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept >> > >> would >> > >>> > be >> > >>> > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious >> > >>> reason. >> > >>> > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >> > that >> > >> is >> > >>> > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious >> > >> enough >> > >>> > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >> > >>> > users >> > >>> > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to >> > >>> > tackle. >> > >>> > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a >> bit >> > >>> > of >> > >>> a >> > >>> > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are >> examples >> > >>> > of >> > >>> > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys >> > >>> > mod >> > >>> is >> > >>> > a >> > >>> > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >> > >>> > falling >> > >>> > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best >> > for >> > >>> > Valve >> > >>> > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears <benmea...@gmail.com> >> > >>> > wrote: >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree >> > >>> >> with >> > >>> >> what >> > >>> >> Jed said 100%. >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> great, thanks! >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >> > support >> > >>> >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that >> StudioMDL >> > >>> >> > supports. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >> > and >> > >>> >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >> > >>> >> > support >> > >>> >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >> > >>> >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled >> against >> > >> the >> > >>> >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to >> have >> > >> one >> > >>> >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >> > Therefore >> > >>> >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >> > the >> > >> 3D >> > >>> >> > app users themselves. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as >> DAE, >> > >>> >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >> > >>> >> > compiler >> > >>> >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >> > *addition* >> > >> to >> > >>> >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > So why should they do it? >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content >> > >>> >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example >> DAE/FBX >> > >>> >> > is >> > >>> >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >> > >>> >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >> > their >> > >>> >> > choice to create content. >> > >>> >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >> > the >> > >>> >> > format in the compiler. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >> > >>> >> > write >> > >>> >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, >> et >> > >> al. >> > >>> >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once >> > >>> >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >> > >> because >> > >>> >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >> > >>> >> > invested >> > >>> >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have >> to >> > >>> >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >> > >>> >> > Source >> > >>> >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of >> > plug-ins >> > >>> >> > for Max. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels >> like >> > >>> >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider >> adoption >> > >>> >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders >> > >>> >> > perspective, >> > >>> >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next >> > >>> >> > CSS/TF2/Portal >> > >>> >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >> > >>> >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >> > not >> > >>> >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >> > (and >> > >>> >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >> > >>> >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy >> > >>> >> > mxtk >> > >>> >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. >> > >>> >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >> > phase >> > >>> >> > out SMD, etc. >> > >>> >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source >> code >> > >> for >> > >>> >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from >> even >> > >>> >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >> > >>> >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >> > >> window >> > >>> >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible >> so >> > >>> >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other >> apps. >> > >>> >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end >> > >>> >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >> > welcoming >> > >>> >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > - Jed >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: >> > >>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> >> > wrote: >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >> > >>> >> > >> reference >> > >>> >> > meshes, >> > >>> >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >> > from >> > >> 3d >> > >>> >> > model / >> > >>> >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? >> > >>> >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where >> you >> > >>> >> > >> can >> > >>> >> > combine >> > >>> >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >> > >>> >> > > formidable, >> > >>> >> > > it >> > >>> >> > still >> > >>> >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >> > >>> >> > > Don't >> > >>> >> tell >> > >>> >> > me >> > >>> >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >> > having >> > >>> >> > problems >> > >>> >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >> > for >> > >>> >> > combining >> > >>> >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still >> pisses >> > >>> >> > > me >> > >>> >> > > off >> > >>> >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >> > of >> > >>> >> > > most >> > >>> >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but >> I'm >> > >>> >> > surprised >> > >>> >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. >> > >>> >> > > >> > >>> >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >> > many >> > >>> >> > problems >> > >>> >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it >> does >> > >>> >> > > it >> > >>> >> > > in >> > >>> >> a >> > >>> >> > bit >> > >>> >> > > of a backwards way. >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >>> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> > >> archives, >> > >>> >> > please visit: >> > >>> >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> > >>> >> archives, >> > >>> >> please visit: >> > >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >> > >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> > archives, >> > >>> > please visit: >> > >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > >>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >> > >>> 07/24/09 >> > >>> > 18:24:00 >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, >> > >>> please visit: >> > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > >> please visit: >> > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > >> please visit: >> > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > > please visit: >> > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >> > 07/25/09 >> > > 18:01:00 >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > please visit: >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > please visit: >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
