How else is VAVLe going to be successful unless they listen to our helpful comments? It's obvious they don't know what they are doing and need our help.
On 8/5/2009 5:47 PM, Garry Newman wrote: > They're probably too busy doing actual work to respond to a list of > scatterbrain pipe dream demands from a bunch of lazy modders. > > garry > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Nick<xnicho...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I like how valve has absolutely no response to make regarding this subject. >> >> On Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Saul Rennison<saul.renni...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> Seconded! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> - Saul. >>> >>> >>> 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman<lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com> >>> >>>> I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. >>>> >>>> Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including >>>> all my hard-earned research in this one? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris >>>> <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work >>>> fully >>>>> with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >>>>> lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had >>>> trouble >>>>> on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that >>>> Faceposer >>>>> requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >>>>> >>>>> I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely >>>> lemons, >>>>> not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry >>>>> Pidcock >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>> >>>>> Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper >>>>> that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very >>>> visual >>>>> language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >>>>> translated into complex hlsl). >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Harry Jeffery"<harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming"< >>>> hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>> >>>>>> I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. >>>> =[ >>>>>> 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald<voo...@voogru.com>: >>>>>>> I like this one better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >>>>>>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my >>>>>>> screen!... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock<haz...@tpg.com.au> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >>>>>>>> implemented >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> new feature. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> From: "Andrew Ritchie"<gotta...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >>>>>>>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >>>>>>>> Personally >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> see 4 different ones here. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1) Engine features >>>>>>>>> 2) Tools Capabilities >>>>>>>>> 3) Tools Availability >>>>>>>>> 4) Tools Presentation >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >>>>>>>>> features >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's >>>>>>>>> important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >>>>> need >>>>>>>>> doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are >>>>>>>>> modding >>>>>>>>> their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve >>>> a >>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> money and brought huge success but they were also developed around >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >>>>> these >>>>>>>>> mods >>>>>>>>> to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an >>>>>>> engine >>>>>>>>> change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add >>>> the >>>>>>>>> feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>> prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a >>>> drastic >>>>>>>>> change >>>>>>>>> for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >>>>>>>>> underway >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things >>>> without >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> lot >>>>>>>>> of work, if not at all. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just >>>> use >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >>>>> converter >>>>>>>>> written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a >>>> specific >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >>>>>>>>> Especially >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> tool >>>>>>>>> can then use. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be >>>> open >>>>>>>>> source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at >>>>>>>>> Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>> projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >>>>> editor >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better >>>> designed >>>>>>>>> tool. >>>>>>>>> However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of >>>>> any >>>>>>>>> benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around >>>>> and >>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have >>>>>>>>> bugs >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and >>>> lead >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> example? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool >>>> with >>>>> a >>>>>>> UI >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>>> the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I >>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what >>>> they >>>>>>>>> need. >>>>>>>>> It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >>>>> would >>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back >>>> to >>>>>>>>> Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around >>>> in >>>>> a >>>>>>>> hex >>>>>>>>> or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the >>>>>>>>> technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors >>>> hiding >>>>>>> away >>>>>>>>> the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the >>>>>>>>> user >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might >>>> be, >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for >>>>>>>> those. >>>>>>>>> Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it >>>>> up, >>>>>>>>> HLMV >>>>>>>>> too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about >>>> simplifying >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development >>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >>>>> about >>>>>>>>> rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was >>>> that >>>>>>>>> specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious >>>>>>>> reason. >>>>>>>>> The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >>>>> that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>> about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>> develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to >>>>>>>>> tackle. >>>>>>>>> Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a >>>> bit >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are >>>> examples >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys >>>>>>>>> mod >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >>>>>>>>> falling >>>>>>>>> back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best >>>>> for >>>>>>>>> Valve >>>>>>>>> games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears<benmea...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> Jed said 100%. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> great, thanks! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed<j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>> for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that >>>> StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>> supports. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >>>>>>>>>>> support >>>>>>>>>>> it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >>>>>>>>>>> automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled >>>> against >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to >>>> have >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>> version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >>>>> Therefore >>>>>>>>>>> SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >>>>> the >>>>>>> 3D >>>>>>>>>>> app users themselves. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as >>>> DAE, >>>>>>>>>>> FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >>>>>>>>>>> compiler >>>>>>>>>>> (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >>>>> *addition* >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So why should they do it? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content >>>>>>>>>>> out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example >>>> DAE/FBX >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> choice to create content. >>>>>>>>>>> - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> format in the compiler. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >>>>>>>>>>> write >>>>>>>>>>> it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, >>>> et >>>>>>> al. >>>>>>>>>>> to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once >>>>>>>>>>> asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>> that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >>>>>>>>>>> invested >>>>>>>>>>> a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have >>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >>>>>>>>>>> Source >>>>>>>>>>> license for their title was hanging on the availability of >>>>> plug-ins >>>>>>>>>>> for Max. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels >>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider >>>> adoption >>>>>>>>>>> which might result in more licensees and from a modders >>>>>>>>>>> perspective, >>>>>>>>>>> more people getting into it and maybe making the next >>>>>>>>>>> CSS/TF2/Portal >>>>>>>>>>> that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >>>>>>>>>>> dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >>>>> (and >>>>>>>>>>> adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >>>>>>>>>>> - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy >>>>>>>>>>> mxtk >>>>>>>>>>> GUI from Mete's HLMV. >>>>>>>>>>> - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >>>>> phase >>>>>>>>>>> out SMD, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source >>>> code >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from >>>> even >>>>>>>>>>> partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >>>>>>>>>>> - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >>>>>>> window >>>>>>>>>>> like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible >>>> so >>>>>>>>>>> that developers can add support for model rendering in other >>>> apps. >>>>>>>>>>> - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end >>>>>>>>>>> users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >>>>> welcoming >>>>>>>>>>> experience to inspire the next great ideas. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could go on but you get the general idea... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Jed >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez<bs.v...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh<minh...@telus.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >>>>>>>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>>>>> meshes, >>>>>>>>>>>>> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >>>>> from >>>>>>> 3d >>>>>>>>>>> model / >>>>>>>>>>>>> animation -> .mdl ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where >>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> combine >>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple .smds to make an animation? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >>>>>>>>>>>> formidable, >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>> leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't >>>>>>>>>> tell >>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>> you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >>>>> having >>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>> with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> combining >>>>>>>>>>>> animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still >>>> pisses >>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>> off >>>>>>>>>>>> quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>> artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but >>>> I'm >>>>>>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>>>>>>> they haven't replaced it entirely. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>> with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it >>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bit >>>>>>>>>>>> of a backwards way. >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>>>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>> archives, >>>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >>>>>>>> 07/24/09 >>>>>>>>> 18:24:00 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>> archives, >>>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>>> please visit: >>>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>>> please visit: >>>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >>>>> 07/25/09 >>>>>> 18:01:00 >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
