I'm wondering if, for some daft reason, Valve actually wants TF2 to slowly become quieter until it's eventually dead. Still, they haven't made any comment here so far which leads me to believe they don't give a care. I agree with what someone else said earlier though, more drastic methods might be needed to force or encourage Valve to take notice of us - the people involved in making the game what it was a short time ago.
On 6 February 2015 at 18:31, E. Olsen <ceo.eol...@gmail.com> wrote: > I think you are misunderstanding my meaning on the use of a client > "blacklist'. The blacklist would only be functional on YOUR personal > client. In other words, no hackers can get your server "blacklisted" across > the board, only players can blacklist your server, and ONLY for themselves > (i.e. they would be insuring that THEY don;t connect to it again). > > As far as a "server scoring system" - again, that is something that can > (and was) gamed (if it had truly worked as intended, Valve would have never > made this change in the first place)....but a client-only blacklist would > have the same effect, WITHOUT the possibility for a nefarious server > operator to influence the result. Good servers would get the traffic they > deserve, while bad servers would result in tons of players blacklisting > them. > > I think Valve HAD the right intention in mind - to give the players the > best experience they can -but where they went off the rails is that they > took the step of deciding FOR the players what they think the best > experience IS. The fact is - there are folks that like (or would like) > virtually every game type, from vanilla, to a 32-slot, all crit, instant > respawn spam-fest. The key to garnering a long-term player base (instead of > the short term F2P playerbase they are building now) is to insure that > players are exposed to every possible game type, and allow those same > players to OPT OUT of the ones they don't like, instead of the current > system of having them OPT IN to more choices. > > I really don't understand Valve's thinking, to be honest. They see all the > games that "lock" players into a particular experience (the battlefield > series comes to mind), and those games always have a beginning, middle, and > end to their player traffic, forcing annual updates/sequels just to keep > the player base interested. > > ...and those games don't have the built-in backend income that TF2 does. > TF2's traffic levels have been in a slight decline and/or static for > several years now, when the truth is they could be continually headed up if > more new players were exposed to all the diversity that community servers > have to offer. How many potential long-term players have been lost because > they quickly tired of the "vanilla" TF2 experience but didn't know there > was anything else out there simply because the quickplay button is > mis-labeled "Play Mutliplayer" (probably one of the worst UI decisions the > TF2 team ever made)? > > What if, instead, there were two buttons - one that said "Join a Valve > Server", and one that said "Join a Community Server"? A system like that > could do away with any and all "server scoring", or "rules" for a community > server to receive traffic, and leave it up to the players to blacklist any > servers they don't wish to be connected to again. > > I don't just want my community/servers to survive, I want TF2 to survive - > and funneling a bunch of F2P players with short attention spans into the > un-moderated chaos of Valve's servers is probably the worst thing they can > do to build the game's long-term traffic. > > On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 11:49 AM, 2xcombatvet <2xcombat...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Olsen, I agree with the blacklisting servers. But there are soo many >> scammers and hackers out there that if you are running a really good >> server. Some A holes could just come along and blacklist your server and >> negatively effect ur server that u worked so hard on... And trust me there >> are a lot!!!! Of people who go around and just ruin servers just for fun. >> >> >> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: "E. Olsen" <ceo.eol...@gmail.com> >> Date:02/06/2015 11:39 (GMT-05:00) >> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list < >> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> >> Cc: >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban >> >> That's my point, though. Even if there are servers who break the rules >> (there always will be), putting the power back into the hands of the >> players by making their personal blacklist work with both the server >> browser AND quickplay solves that problem all together. If the server IS >> breaking the rules, and that rule-breaking also detracts from the game >> environment, then more and more players will blacklist those servers, they >> will lose traffic, etc. etc. >> >> Let's keep in mind, some of those rules are now even being (technically) >> broken by Valve themselves. I asked on this very list a few months ago if >> the quickplay policy against class limits was still in effect, since Valve >> added the ability to do so via vote to their own servers, but got no reply. >> Does that mean every time a class limit vote passes on a Valve server, that >> they are technically in violation of their own policy? >> >> That's just an off-the-cuff example showing how certain things (like >> class limits) are ridiculous to have rules "against" for receiving player >> traffic. I've yet to see or hear of a single server who imposed class >> limits as a "punitive" measure - most server operators do so in order to >> tailor the experience to what their players want to see. In that, they are >> doing absolutely the right thing, and the players should be able to decide >> for themselves (via their own blacklist) if they like those "tweaks" a >> server operator makes, or if they want to never set foot on that server >> again. >> >> ...and frankly, that goes for most of the "rules" in place - >> customization was the lifeblood that kept people playing TF2 for years and >> years. Instant respawn, 32 players, custom maps, custom game modes....none >> of that is/was "bad" for the game. It was simply "different" - which means >> some people like it, and some don't....the only difference being that for >> the last couple of years, Valve has been pushing "their" version of what >> they think the game should be (which is made all the more tragic, as I >> doubt many of them play anything but DOTA these days), as opposed to >> allowing each individual player to decide on their own the game style/mode >> that they prefer. >> >> Valves' current approach to the game is synonymous with handing a >> restaurant patron a menu with a single meal option on it, and only telling >> them about their other hundreds of meal options if they happen to notice >> the fine print on the menu that tell them those options exist. The vast >> majority of people simple see that, and think "I guess that's all I can >> get", otherwise known as the default effect >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_effect_%28psychology%29>. >> >> Diversity should be brought back and encouraged again. All Valve need do >> is give the players a "Never show me that server again" button that works >> across the board, and they can sit back and watch the cream rise to the top. >> >> I'd love to see an active mapping & modding scene again, but this >> years-long push to homogenize the game is damaging to the very thing that >> made it great. >> >> It's been long enough, TF2 team. Time to start treating community servers >> with fairness again. >> >> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:52 AM, spacebur...@gmail.com < >> spacebur...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I get the feeling Valve simply doesn't trust the community to provide a >>> quality experience anymore. Some of it is justified, but lumping all the >>> community server providers with the likes of Saigns and Nighteam is hardly >>> fair. >>> >>> On 6 February 2015 at 13:30, Anthony James Duncan < >>> anth...@kinevonetwork.com> wrote: >>> >>>> To be honest the new quick play rules don’t even seem to be followed at >>>> all, An example being Skial now kicking people to make room of reserve >>>> slots if they so happen to dare to block ads when the server is full. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >>>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *E. Olsen >>>> *Sent:* 06 February 2015 02:11 >>>> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list >>>> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The thing is - the solution is as simple as can be. They don't need to >>>> re-invent the scoring system, add server grouping, or even more server >>>> penalties.....all they need to do is have a truly functional blacklist >>>> system that works across the board on a player's client (i.e. a server that >>>> is blacklisted will not appear in that player's server browser OR quickplay >>>> destinations). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That small change alone would do what should have been done in the >>>> first place - put the decision(s) about the quality of a server back in the >>>> player's hands. Truly bad servers would naturally lose traffic over time, >>>> and the good ones would rise to the top. Doing that would allow players to >>>> once again discover custom maps & game modes that are currently effectively >>>> hidden from them, AND give them the power to prevent themselves from ever >>>> being connected to a server they didn't like. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The problem with any kind of automated system is that there are always >>>> those folks who will figure out a way to game them - but players know a >>>> good gaming environment when they see it, and that's where the judgment >>>> should lie - with the players where it belongs. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:04 PM, 2xcombatvet <2xcombat...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I started cs go maybe a month ago after serving sometime in the >>>> military. I didn't enjoy matching making seemed pointless when u can get >>>> sounds and crates through PvP servers. So I got a server running 5v5 cevo >>>> config and my community has grown to 60+ people with regulars always on >>>> server. So I had to buy two servers now. Both are always full for the most >>>> part. I played a lot of cs 1.6 and TF1 didn't really get into tf2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: wickedplayer494 <wickedplayer...@gmail.com> >>>> Date:02/05/2015 18:42 (GMT-05:00) >>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list < >>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> >>>> Cc: >>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban >>>> >>>> I fully agree. I've seen some of my favorite servers drop like flies >>>> over the past few months (and by extension the last 2 years), and the >>>> assimilation of players into Valve-hosted servers is downright alarming. >>>> Having a Valve-dominated server ecosystem only makes sense for three >>>> things: Dota 2, CS:GO competitive matchmaking, and TF2 MvM Mann Up. It >>>> doesn't make sense for PvP. >>>> >>>> Truth be told, people are somewhat right about the game "dying", but >>>> only in some very, very specific components of the game, one of those being >>>> community-run servers. Here's an example: TrashedGamers' Chicago server. A >>>> few months ago, it would fill up every night with players. Now? You're >>>> lucky to find even 4 people playing on a good night. This is illustrated >>>> very well by the HLStatsX graphs for the server, found at >>>> http://stats.trashedgamers.org. Here's an image for people browsing >>>> very, very far into the future: http://i.imgur.com/u8FCWMJ.png >>>> >>>> What happened to the days of picking a server yourself through the >>>> browser? Is it *really* that hard for the community? I think at this >>>> point the only real solution is having to make people go through hoops to >>>> get to quickplay. All it has done is open a can of worms, which Valve has >>>> tried to clean up after (with the Policy of Truth memo long ago from >>>> Fletcher and other measures), but people were still trying to cheat the >>>> system, which forced the hand of Valve. Reducing its exposure would make it >>>> not worthwhile for people to keep trying to cheat the system. There should >>>> be a better emphasis placed on the server browser. To make it as usable, >>>> make scores visible in the browser, and let users decide for themselves >>>> (unless they go through those hoops to get to quickplay). That way people >>>> can pick a server that they believe looks good to them, instead of chancing >>>> that the server they get placed on looks good. While we're at it, add >>>> server grouping to the browser, so say if someone wants to view all the >>>> servers "Organization A" has, because they look better than "Organization >>>> B", they can pop open all of A's servers instead of needing to scroll >>>> through all of B's servers, leaving them hidden. Similar named servers that >>>> aren't grouped together by the server operator would be given a score >>>> penalty. >>>> >>>> On 2/5/2015 3:11 PM, Tim Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>> To the TF2 team, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It has now been over a year since the decision to essentially ban >>>> community servers from quickplay by defaulting to official ones. Here are >>>> some facts of what has happened since then. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Player gain dropped 4% from the year before. >>>> >>>> - UGC highlander teams dropped 17% >>>> >>>> - Highly reduced map variety from community servers. >>>> >>>> - Even top non-quickplay servers have drastically fewer players than in >>>> 2013. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You may have guaranteed new players a vanilla experience, but this is >>>> ruining the experience for the rest. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe nothing is being done because you do not see enough complaints >>>> about this from reddit or spuf. This is because the problem is obvious when >>>> someone connects to a pay to win server while it is not as obvious when a >>>> server is dying over the span of several months because official ones are >>>> getting all the new players. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Most of the people that I talked to even knew about this change so the >>>> thought about complaining about it never crossed their minds. But just >>>> because they never knew about it doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope you realize that this change is doing more harm than good. It >>>> may have stopped some complaints but this is hurting TF2 in the long run. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >
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