If you start breaking rules as somebody here suggested, all that will do is prove Valve right - that community servers are not to be trusted. There must be some other way to take action.
On 6 February 2015 at 21:08, Paul <ubyu....@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm wondering if, for some daft reason, Valve actually wants TF2 to slowly > become quieter until it's eventually dead. Still, they haven't made any > comment here so far which leads me to believe they don't give a care. I > agree with what someone else said earlier though, more drastic methods > might be needed to force or encourage Valve to take notice of us - the > people involved in making the game what it was a short time ago. > > On 6 February 2015 at 18:31, E. Olsen <ceo.eol...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I think you are misunderstanding my meaning on the use of a client >> "blacklist'. The blacklist would only be functional on YOUR personal >> client. In other words, no hackers can get your server "blacklisted" across >> the board, only players can blacklist your server, and ONLY for themselves >> (i.e. they would be insuring that THEY don;t connect to it again). >> >> As far as a "server scoring system" - again, that is something that can >> (and was) gamed (if it had truly worked as intended, Valve would have never >> made this change in the first place)....but a client-only blacklist would >> have the same effect, WITHOUT the possibility for a nefarious server >> operator to influence the result. Good servers would get the traffic they >> deserve, while bad servers would result in tons of players blacklisting >> them. >> >> I think Valve HAD the right intention in mind - to give the players the >> best experience they can -but where they went off the rails is that they >> took the step of deciding FOR the players what they think the best >> experience IS. The fact is - there are folks that like (or would like) >> virtually every game type, from vanilla, to a 32-slot, all crit, instant >> respawn spam-fest. The key to garnering a long-term player base (instead of >> the short term F2P playerbase they are building now) is to insure that >> players are exposed to every possible game type, and allow those same >> players to OPT OUT of the ones they don't like, instead of the current >> system of having them OPT IN to more choices. >> >> I really don't understand Valve's thinking, to be honest. They see all >> the games that "lock" players into a particular experience (the battlefield >> series comes to mind), and those games always have a beginning, middle, and >> end to their player traffic, forcing annual updates/sequels just to keep >> the player base interested. >> >> ...and those games don't have the built-in backend income that TF2 does. >> TF2's traffic levels have been in a slight decline and/or static for >> several years now, when the truth is they could be continually headed up if >> more new players were exposed to all the diversity that community servers >> have to offer. How many potential long-term players have been lost because >> they quickly tired of the "vanilla" TF2 experience but didn't know there >> was anything else out there simply because the quickplay button is >> mis-labeled "Play Mutliplayer" (probably one of the worst UI decisions the >> TF2 team ever made)? >> >> What if, instead, there were two buttons - one that said "Join a Valve >> Server", and one that said "Join a Community Server"? A system like that >> could do away with any and all "server scoring", or "rules" for a community >> server to receive traffic, and leave it up to the players to blacklist any >> servers they don't wish to be connected to again. >> >> I don't just want my community/servers to survive, I want TF2 to survive >> - and funneling a bunch of F2P players with short attention spans into the >> un-moderated chaos of Valve's servers is probably the worst thing they can >> do to build the game's long-term traffic. >> >> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 11:49 AM, 2xcombatvet <2xcombat...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Olsen, I agree with the blacklisting servers. But there are soo many >>> scammers and hackers out there that if you are running a really good >>> server. Some A holes could just come along and blacklist your server and >>> negatively effect ur server that u worked so hard on... And trust me there >>> are a lot!!!! Of people who go around and just ruin servers just for fun. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: "E. Olsen" <ceo.eol...@gmail.com> >>> Date:02/06/2015 11:39 (GMT-05:00) >>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list < >>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> >>> Cc: >>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban >>> >>> That's my point, though. Even if there are servers who break the rules >>> (there always will be), putting the power back into the hands of the >>> players by making their personal blacklist work with both the server >>> browser AND quickplay solves that problem all together. If the server IS >>> breaking the rules, and that rule-breaking also detracts from the game >>> environment, then more and more players will blacklist those servers, they >>> will lose traffic, etc. etc. >>> >>> Let's keep in mind, some of those rules are now even being (technically) >>> broken by Valve themselves. I asked on this very list a few months ago if >>> the quickplay policy against class limits was still in effect, since Valve >>> added the ability to do so via vote to their own servers, but got no reply. >>> Does that mean every time a class limit vote passes on a Valve server, that >>> they are technically in violation of their own policy? >>> >>> That's just an off-the-cuff example showing how certain things (like >>> class limits) are ridiculous to have rules "against" for receiving player >>> traffic. I've yet to see or hear of a single server who imposed class >>> limits as a "punitive" measure - most server operators do so in order to >>> tailor the experience to what their players want to see. In that, they are >>> doing absolutely the right thing, and the players should be able to decide >>> for themselves (via their own blacklist) if they like those "tweaks" a >>> server operator makes, or if they want to never set foot on that server >>> again. >>> >>> ...and frankly, that goes for most of the "rules" in place - >>> customization was the lifeblood that kept people playing TF2 for years and >>> years. Instant respawn, 32 players, custom maps, custom game modes....none >>> of that is/was "bad" for the game. It was simply "different" - which means >>> some people like it, and some don't....the only difference being that for >>> the last couple of years, Valve has been pushing "their" version of what >>> they think the game should be (which is made all the more tragic, as I >>> doubt many of them play anything but DOTA these days), as opposed to >>> allowing each individual player to decide on their own the game style/mode >>> that they prefer. >>> >>> Valves' current approach to the game is synonymous with handing a >>> restaurant patron a menu with a single meal option on it, and only telling >>> them about their other hundreds of meal options if they happen to notice >>> the fine print on the menu that tell them those options exist. The vast >>> majority of people simple see that, and think "I guess that's all I can >>> get", otherwise known as the default effect >>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_effect_%28psychology%29>. >>> >>> Diversity should be brought back and encouraged again. All Valve need do >>> is give the players a "Never show me that server again" button that works >>> across the board, and they can sit back and watch the cream rise to the top. >>> >>> I'd love to see an active mapping & modding scene again, but this >>> years-long push to homogenize the game is damaging to the very thing that >>> made it great. >>> >>> It's been long enough, TF2 team. Time to start treating community >>> servers with fairness again. >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 7:52 AM, spacebur...@gmail.com < >>> spacebur...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I get the feeling Valve simply doesn't trust the community to provide a >>>> quality experience anymore. Some of it is justified, but lumping all the >>>> community server providers with the likes of Saigns and Nighteam is hardly >>>> fair. >>>> >>>> On 6 February 2015 at 13:30, Anthony James Duncan < >>>> anth...@kinevonetwork.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> To be honest the new quick play rules don’t even seem to be followed >>>>> at all, An example being Skial now kicking people to make room of reserve >>>>> slots if they so happen to dare to block ads when the server is full. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: >>>>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *E. Olsen >>>>> *Sent:* 06 February 2015 02:11 >>>>> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The thing is - the solution is as simple as can be. They don't need to >>>>> re-invent the scoring system, add server grouping, or even more server >>>>> penalties.....all they need to do is have a truly functional blacklist >>>>> system that works across the board on a player's client (i.e. a server >>>>> that >>>>> is blacklisted will not appear in that player's server browser OR >>>>> quickplay >>>>> destinations). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That small change alone would do what should have been done in the >>>>> first place - put the decision(s) about the quality of a server back in >>>>> the >>>>> player's hands. Truly bad servers would naturally lose traffic over time, >>>>> and the good ones would rise to the top. Doing that would allow players to >>>>> once again discover custom maps & game modes that are currently >>>>> effectively >>>>> hidden from them, AND give them the power to prevent themselves from ever >>>>> being connected to a server they didn't like. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The problem with any kind of automated system is that there are always >>>>> those folks who will figure out a way to game them - but players know a >>>>> good gaming environment when they see it, and that's where the judgment >>>>> should lie - with the players where it belongs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 7:04 PM, 2xcombatvet <2xcombat...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I started cs go maybe a month ago after serving sometime in the >>>>> military. I didn't enjoy matching making seemed pointless when u can get >>>>> sounds and crates through PvP servers. So I got a server running 5v5 cevo >>>>> config and my community has grown to 60+ people with regulars always on >>>>> server. So I had to buy two servers now. Both are always full for the most >>>>> part. I played a lot of cs 1.6 and TF1 didn't really get into tf2 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: wickedplayer494 <wickedplayer...@gmail.com> >>>>> Date:02/05/2015 18:42 (GMT-05:00) >>>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list < >>>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> >>>>> Cc: >>>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban >>>>> >>>>> I fully agree. I've seen some of my favorite servers drop like flies >>>>> over the past few months (and by extension the last 2 years), and the >>>>> assimilation of players into Valve-hosted servers is downright alarming. >>>>> Having a Valve-dominated server ecosystem only makes sense for three >>>>> things: Dota 2, CS:GO competitive matchmaking, and TF2 MvM Mann Up. It >>>>> doesn't make sense for PvP. >>>>> >>>>> Truth be told, people are somewhat right about the game "dying", but >>>>> only in some very, very specific components of the game, one of those >>>>> being >>>>> community-run servers. Here's an example: TrashedGamers' Chicago server. A >>>>> few months ago, it would fill up every night with players. Now? You're >>>>> lucky to find even 4 people playing on a good night. This is illustrated >>>>> very well by the HLStatsX graphs for the server, found at >>>>> http://stats.trashedgamers.org. Here's an image for people browsing >>>>> very, very far into the future: http://i.imgur.com/u8FCWMJ.png >>>>> >>>>> What happened to the days of picking a server yourself through the >>>>> browser? Is it *really* that hard for the community? I think at this >>>>> point the only real solution is having to make people go through hoops to >>>>> get to quickplay. All it has done is open a can of worms, which Valve has >>>>> tried to clean up after (with the Policy of Truth memo long ago from >>>>> Fletcher and other measures), but people were still trying to cheat the >>>>> system, which forced the hand of Valve. Reducing its exposure would make >>>>> it >>>>> not worthwhile for people to keep trying to cheat the system. There should >>>>> be a better emphasis placed on the server browser. To make it as usable, >>>>> make scores visible in the browser, and let users decide for themselves >>>>> (unless they go through those hoops to get to quickplay). That way people >>>>> can pick a server that they believe looks good to them, instead of >>>>> chancing >>>>> that the server they get placed on looks good. While we're at it, add >>>>> server grouping to the browser, so say if someone wants to view all the >>>>> servers "Organization A" has, because they look better than "Organization >>>>> B", they can pop open all of A's servers instead of needing to scroll >>>>> through all of B's servers, leaving them hidden. Similar named servers >>>>> that >>>>> aren't grouped together by the server operator would be given a score >>>>> penalty. >>>>> >>>>> On 2/5/2015 3:11 PM, Tim Anderson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> To the TF2 team, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It has now been over a year since the decision to essentially ban >>>>> community servers from quickplay by defaulting to official ones. Here are >>>>> some facts of what has happened since then. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Player gain dropped 4% from the year before. >>>>> >>>>> - UGC highlander teams dropped 17% >>>>> >>>>> - Highly reduced map variety from community servers. >>>>> >>>>> - Even top non-quickplay servers have drastically fewer players than >>>>> in 2013. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You may have guaranteed new players a vanilla experience, but this is >>>>> ruining the experience for the rest. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Maybe nothing is being done because you do not see enough complaints >>>>> about this from reddit or spuf. This is because the problem is obvious >>>>> when >>>>> someone connects to a pay to win server while it is not as obvious when a >>>>> server is dying over the span of several months because official ones are >>>>> getting all the new players. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Most of the people that I talked to even knew about this change so the >>>>> thought about complaining about it never crossed their minds. But just >>>>> because they never knew about it doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I hope you realize that this change is doing more harm than good. It >>>>> may have stopped some complaints but this is hurting TF2 in the long run. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >
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