On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:40 AM, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (I am following up to this message, but including responses to another > of your messages. This has already become rather a mountain out of a > molehill as far as I am concerned.) > > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:01:38 +0530 > "Angad Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Raj Mathur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Hmm, not sure I agree with that. I see the issues at hand as being (a) > > > gratuitously pushing a product/service/group that has no relevance in > > > the current context and > > > a) In > http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg21486.html, > > there was a recommendation made by Mr. Gora for other linux distros, > without > > giving any reason to back his views, and so did I for opensolaris. What > is > > not in context here? > > b) In > http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg21510.html, > > there was a show of concern for creating awareness for opensource and so > I > > mentioned about our program and what it does to fulfill that purpose! > > How are either of these equivalent to the message I was complaining about, > namely > http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg21512.html In a) I was stating that if your 'one-line jocular post' is relevant to context, then even my 'one-line jocular post' is relevant to context. I was standing up against the statement that my post had 'no relevance in the current context', since it very much did, since I was suggesting the use of an (free and open source) operating system where even you suggested using 'other linux distributions'.. It was a reply to Raj's post, not yours, and thus need not have equivalence with anything you were talking about. <http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg21512.html> > That sounds like a marketing blurb, adds little of value to people on > this list, is a complete non-sequitur to the thread that it follows up > on, and is blatant astroturfing, at least by my reading of it. It is a blatant astroturfing because a) You think OpenSolaris is Sun proprietary software, though it very much not, and it is as open source as are any of the linux distributions out there. I need not to prove that here, you may head to opensolaris.org to know more or just google it. b) You think I get paid by Sun to astroturf on mailing lists. My posting about OpenSolaris was just an outcome of my passion for it and that's what I have been trying to explain here all this long, but you always associate my talking of opensolaris with my being a sun campus ambassador. Tomorrow you might even associate my talking of Java or Netbeans or any other open source initiative linked with Sun to be astroturfing, and if that's so then I'd rather not be on the list, since that is what I do most of the time and would automatically want to speak about it. Microsoft has been roundly condemned for such behaviour by its campus > ambassadors, > and I do not see why other companies should get a free pass. I don't know why you compare this with companies like Microsoft. I won't defend Sun vs. Microsoft here as it might be taken as me promoting Sun in someway. Again, just get the facts right first. Anyway I get your point, and it's right that companies should not be allowed to promote products over FOSS mailing list, BUT what I am continuously trying to express here is that I HAVE NOT done SO at ALL! I would have done so I would have promoted Solaris or MySQL enterprise subscription offers or something, but I just spoke about the campus ambassador program that I was associated with.. > I spent some time composing my original message, making sure to (i) cast > it as a request, and based on personal opinion, rather than as a formal > declaration on behalf of ILUG-D I appreciate that, but it does no good to the disrespecting message you sent across. , and (ii) not impute any motive to you, > other than pointing out an obvious conflict of interest. It is quite > possible to promote a product that one has a vested interest in, Again and again, again and agian, all of you, you, Raj .. everyone why do all of you called 'OpenSolaris' as sun's product! WHY! Since none of you are going to head over to opensolaris.org and get the facts right, I am taking the liberty of clearing this out right here: >From opensolaris.org: *"OpenSolaris is an operating system <http://opensolaris.com/get/index.html>(OS), an open source <http://src.opensolaris.org/source> project licensed under CDDL, and a community <http://opensolaris.org/>. The project's goals are innovation, collaboration, and the extension of OpenSolaris technology. OpenSolaris is free, open source, and well-suited for desktops, laptops, servers, and data centers. Who Develops OpenSolaris? OpenSolaris technical communities maintain kernel and userland consolidations and launch new technology projects. OpenSolaris is developed by communities working in the different projects. Each project focuses on one or more specific areas of the system. The OpenSolaris developer project is sponsored by Sun Microsystems, Inc.**" *On the other hand, we have Solaris 10 (sun.com/solaris), which is a product of Sun Microsystems, with support subscriptions for companies*. (Please note that I issue this information in the interest of clarification in this discussion and not to promote anything from Sun whatsoever!) * > but such promotion should be based on technical merit, and lack of > disclosure > of potential conflicts of interest is seriously unethical. 'Lack of disclosure of potential conflicts of interest'? -- FYI I do mention by being a sun employee in my signature (with a link to my sun blog). And as far as speaking of technical merit is concerned, I agree with that and that is why I replied to that mail saying that I am sorry I did not give reason to my one-liner,* but let me come and do it now!* ( http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg21553.html), but instead of listening to that, you people are after my life for other issues. So hippocratic. If you honestly do not see the difference between your message, and either > of your (a), and (b) examples above, I guess that we will just have to > agree > to disagree. For the record, (a) was a one-line jocular follow-up, is by no > means representative of my participation on this list, hardly constitutes a > promotion of any specific Linux distribution, and in any case I do not > derive > any financial benefit from promoting any Linux distribution. (b) This is > slightly more ambiguous, but not by a lot. The forwarded message does not > specifically promote a proprietary product, but is cast as an open source > (Linux) success story, and, if you will notice, the author starts out by > declaring that he works for HCL (full disclosure). I never said that mail promotes a proprietary product. > > > And, please drop your us against them attitude. It's not an us against them attitude. It's a self-respect and take-your-stand atittude! For example, other people have called out Ubuntu folk when they marginally > crossed the line on the > list, so this is not about you per se, but about what is acceptable on the > list. > > > (b) not clearly specifying that you get paid > > > for peddling that item, whatever it is. And if the latest > > > (proprietary) > > > > > > Proprietary??? > > > > I don't know why and how people are so uninformed here! > [...] > > I don't know why you are seemingly purposefully ignoring the essence > of the point, namely, *your* failure to disclose a potential conflict > of interest. > > Look, Angad, I am all in favour of people like you making a bigger > contribution to this list, ILUG-D, and Freed.in. Yes, in spite of > the name, we are primarily about FOSS, and not about Linux. I am > also quite prepared to believe that we do not do a good enough job > of welcoming new entrants. However, there are certain things that > I for one will not compromise on, and as far as this thread goes, I > absolutely do not see it as an example of unfriendliness from the > side of ILUG-D. > > Please feel free to disregard the remainder of this message, as this > thread is already turning into the equivalent of "But, daddy! He > started it first!" I am certainly unlikely to follow up further on > this part of the conversation. > > Coming back to JIIT as the venue for Freed.in 2008, I hope that you > do not dispute the following facts (a) that the ILUG-D meeting at > JIIT (which for us was a test case) was quite disappointing in terms > of attendance. There were 2 students from JIIT, out of your claim of > a 100+ strength of the JIIT LUG. You said you would want to discuss this offline and I did mention the reason for this to your offline mail, but I guess you want me to say it here too. There was no participation from our LUG since we had HOLIDAYS during those days when the meeting happened. NO student was on campus, and EVERYONE was at home! I have said this a million times now! > And, this after the meeting was rescheduled at your request. (b) After > that, besides email, you were > contacted at least a couple of times on the phone personally by me. I clear the issue our to-be-held phone conversation below in comlete detail along with the rest of the complete story. Those requests included asking for JIIT faculty to contact us, and/or > asking for contact information so that we could get hold of them. > Neither of these materialised. (c) However valid the reasons might be, > I think that balancing commitments that you have made is your problem. > Even if you were pre-occupied with exams at that time, we had exactly > zero follow-ups from you after the exams. > > You can choose to believe me, or not, but besides maybe Andrew, I > was the biggest proponent of a satellite conference at JIIT. > However, once it was mid-Nov. 2007, and we had to plan an event > with international speakers for Feb. 2008, we had no choice but to > cut our losses vis-a-vis JIIT. > > In spite of the above, you seem to have the unmitigated gall to claim > that somehow *we* fell down on the job by not involving you? Let me > contrast your attitude of entitlement to that of the students at RKGIT, > Ghaziabad, who ran a real local LUG of their own, took the trouble to > travel to ILUG-D meetings in Delhi, withstood much harsher criticism > at times, and as a consequence have been an integral part of ILUG-D, > and the Freed.in team since at least 2007. Sadly, none of them are > campus ambassadors of any kind. Maybe, there is a lesson in that. I don't see or use my being a campus ambassador of any kind as any benefit in any of this. Freed proposal for JIIT is a completely different topic and I don't know why you are mixing up the two, anyway, I have taken the time dig through the past (for no fruitful reason IMHO) and here is what had happened -> [November 2nd to November 8th 2007] Aditya Kumar Sharma (co-founder, JIIT-LUG) sends out "JIIT LUG proposal for freed.in 08" at : http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg19037.html. I mention in this thread that an ILUG-D meeting occured at JIIT in the month of October, 2007. Even in this thread, a voice raised the question, why wasn't there any LUG participation, and I reply "We were having our mid-sem break when the ILUG-D meeting took place so the college was totally deserted, there were no students and only few faculty which is why only the coordinators of our LUG attended the meeting.". I was also told that ILUG-D has support from Dr. Andrew of JNU and his department involved with OSS, and if a senior member of faculty is fully involved from JIIT in LUG activities it becomes easier. I immediately put forward the email addresses of our vice chancellor and H.O.D. Then Mr. Gora said that the difference is that RKGIT has been very proactive in their involvement with ILUG-Delhi and while the JIIT setup looks encouraging, I would still think that it makes sense to take things a step at a time and what we can do is a one-day satellite conference for developers. Then we were told to give a presentation at the next ILUG-Delhi meeting scheduled on the coming Sunday, 10th November 2007, and asked to get students from JIIT too. I replied saying that "We'll definitely prepare and give this presentation in this month's ILUG-D meeting. However, I wouldn't be able to come on this Sunday as I have a previous engagement. Again students have gone home for Diwali holidays and no one would come if the meeting is on Sunday :). I request that you reschedule the meeting to next week if possible (but not any later, as exams are starting from 26th). I have talked to Aditya. He can make it to the meeting and give the presentation this Sunday, if it is not rescheduled." -> [November 8th, 2007] I try calling up Mr.Gora from my landline on . but did not pick up the call, so I email him: Angad> Hi, I tried to call you up from my landline but couldn't get through. Please give me a missed when you are free :) Happy Diwali Regards Angad Gora> >From a Gurgaon (0124) number? Sorry, but I often do not answer calls where I do not know the caller. You could have replied to my SMS. Anyways, please get in touch whenever possible. I should be available after 10am tomorrow (Fri.). Looks like it is already too late for a meeting this weekend, or the middle of next week, and I will be out of town the week after that. However, maybe you can have a presentation at a meeting that Gaurav is trying to schedule for the 18th. Regards, Gora Angad> Sir, I don't have any balance on my mobile so called from landline. Please save my landline number - 0124-xxxxxxx. I'll call you from this number. I called but no one picked up. Aditya could have given the presentation if the meeting was held on November 10th, 2007. But as you can read in Mr. Gora's reply above, I was told that Gaurav Mishra is trying to call up a meeting on November 18th. So I was waiting for announcement mail for the meeting to be scheduled on November 18th, 2007. -> [November 11th 2007] Gaurav Mishra resigns from his post of general secretary of ILUG-D as he is leaving for Chandigarh for work. He also announces that All Meeting announcements and further communications would be done by new General Secretary or present members of ILUGD managemnt commitee. -> [November 17th 2007] Someone asks "is there any meeting tomorrow" and someone replies no notice from Gaurav or Gora, so no meet. -> [November 26th 2007] Our exams started -> Then there was no ILUG-D meeting in November. So, we never got an opportunity to put forward the presentation You saying that we didn't respond to your phone calls and did not come to any of the meets has all proved to be false. The mail archive is proof of all this. Truth can never be hidden for long. There was nothing said on the threads, as to why the November meet was never held and our end-semester exams sucked us in too. Then we had holidays in December. -> [December 15th, 2007] Mr. Gora starts a new thread "Plan for Freed.in 2008", http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/msg19567.html, the subject of much contrevarsy and the most discouraging element, which made us back off. Mr. Gora posted the ConcepDoc and asked everyone to look at it and comment or edit the doc. Aditya replied immediately to this mail saying: "Really sorry for the lack of communication between us, we had our end semester exams so that took the focus away, I understand it would be really hard to convince you now to let us at JIITU host Freed.in 2008 but we would be more than willing to host a satellite conference of Freed.in , we've already indicated what facilities we can provide, if there is a plan to host a smaller conference before of after Freed.in we at JIITU would be more than happy to have you here." But then, no one replied to him. As I said previously, ILUG-D has people who just like to pull each other's hair and as such it started off into a flame war on the point on something related to editing of the wiki. Niyam summed it up right and tried to end it, but there was further discussion about 'editing of wiki' and other off-topic non sense down the thread. Then the thread's focus shifted to the topic that why has Freed's focus shifted to "Knowledge Ecosystem". It was December 27th, 2007 when this happened. 12 days and no one had made a single reply to aditya's request! (which happened to be the first reply to the thread)! and by that time the discussion had moved to a more serious topic - the focus and direction of freed itself, and also the purpose of ILUG-Delhi and LUG's, as to sticking to LUG-ish affairs rather than social revolution, and social reform. I am not stating my opinion on that here as I don't want to start another flame war, but, my point is that no one replied to Aditya's post and it had turned into a discussion we would not want to be a part thereof. The discussion then moved to the freed mailing list. That's that. The whole story in vivid detail, with references to the pertaining mailing list thread discussion links from the mailing list archive and valid reasoning. I have no more to say. This has turned into a sort of court case and will never come to any conclusion. I simply do not want to misuse my quality time when I could do something productive. I just don't want to be blamed for reasons which are invalid and I think I have rather made more effort to justify myself than actually required for me to do. Let me out. Let me peacefully resign from this unscrupulous discussion! -- Angad Singh http://angadsingh.in http://blogs.sun.com/angad "The best way to predict future is to invent it" _______________________________________________ ilugd mailinglist -- ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd Archives at: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.user-groups.linux.delhi http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd@lists.linux-delhi.org/
