> As  one  of  my posts in this thread said, I don't have that list of
> networks/netmasks,  so  blocking  by  the  PTR  hostname  was a very
> effective equivalent.

It  was this (theoretical) RegEx example that provoked the bulk of the
traffic  on  this  thread, though now the topic has changed to another
(theoretical)  tactic  of  blocking  all  or  some  DSL IPs. The RegEx
concept,  to  its  strong  credit,  at  least was aimed at dynamic DSL
users,  i.e.  those  who  presumably  were  violating  ToS.  This  new
drop-all-DSL  concept  is far more flawed and, I believe, out of touch
with what non-gorilla businesses must do to survive.

> If  they  can  segregate their IP allocations so they they have some
> nets  as  dynamic  and  with the ISP's generic PTR hostname (this is
> what  AOL  and  I  would  target), and the have other nets for their
> legit  clients, then the latter would not be systematically blocked,
> while the former would be clearly in AOL and my crosshairs.

Like  I  said, hoping this was as far as you were saying you wanted to
go,  those  violating  an  existing  "no servers" ToS clause should be
eagerly,  voraciously  blocked.  But  you're  coming  at this from two
different  angles:  what're  you  going to put in place? Do you indeed
want to block these "no servers" servers only--or all DSL circuits, as
you  say  elsewhere?  Since  you  don't have access to the broken-down
netblock  list,  are  you  just  going  to "round up" and kill all DSL
connections as soon as you can find a way to match on any kind of DSL?
That's  your  call,  but yours is a far more draconian policy than AOL
has  shown  *any* evidence of keeping, so really "AOL" shouldn't be in
the  subject  line anymore. This doesn't mean the policy won't go over
with  *your*  ISP customer base, but I think you should need a big ol'
"YMMV"  before  suggesting  it  to corporate admins who may think that
since  an  experienced  person recommends it, it's good to go (next to
go: their jobs).

> Anybody  got  any  numbers  of DSL clients who want to run their own
> mailservers?  I  bet  it's  minuscule, both in number of IPs and the
> volume  legit msgs, in comparsion with the number of abusive IPs and
> the volumes of spam.

Bet  away,  but  if neither of us have any numbers, the jury is firmly
out--but  what's  "minuscule"? For SMEs in the NY Metro area, business
SDSL  is  extremely  common--but what's "common"? It all, as stated ad
nauseum, depends on the FP rate and user response. And since the total
number   of   individual   spammers   in   the   world   is   insanely
disproportionate  to the amount of mail they generate out of all mail,
that  ratio  is  going  to  carry over to probably any connection type
except dial-up. IOW, it's a tautology to say that, for circuit type X,
the  ratio  of  legit  messages/spam messages will be much, much, much
lower  than  the  ratio of legit customers/spammer customers. But that
wouldn't  lead  any  enterprise  to  outright block even the strongest
examples of this rule.

> DSL belongs to the telcos, world over.

>From  my  US  view,  it  belongs to the telcos because they killed/are
killing   the  independent  competition  through  poor  inter-provider
service,  then  followed  up  with  marketing  blitzes  masking shoddy
technology.  Such  tactics  are  almost  precisely what some of us are
suggesting AOL may be planning, though it's just a suggestion.

> I  really  can't  this  sinister  AOL motivation. they are not a big
> players  in DSL or broadband. Their rr unit is not even the dominant
> Internet/cable provider.

That  they  don't  dominate  now is far from evidence that they do not
have  plans  to  do  so,  and multiple posters have provided plausible
evidence  that,  while some anti-spam tactics would have their primary
payoff  in  customer  retention,  other  tactics  would  have stronger
effects  in  killing  broadband  competition.  This  may  not favor an
AOL-branded  service,  but  rather the co-branded service that AOL for
Broadband provides, with brilliant percentages for them.

On  the  other  hand,  this  may  never  work  out  that way at all. I
understand that the dial-up market is a sinkhole on which they overbet
long  ago,  and  I  think  that AOL for Broadband BYOA (Bring Your Own
Access)  is  the most honest thing I've seen from them in a while. Who
knows?  They  may slink off into being a very reliable and respectable
spamsafe mail hosting/childsafe web proxying entity, which would be an
interesting  development.  I'd  still  resent  them  for the hell they
caused when they were doing dial-up, but that would go away with time.

> They   aren't   stupid.  Blocking  is  always  imprecise,  always  a
> trade-off.

I think they are stupid and, in a relatively endearing way, desperate.
Certainly, this incident doesn't smack of smarts:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-1014827.html

> DSL depends totally on the wire distance to the CO, the physics, not
> the provider.

<sigh>.

*Of  course*  it depends on the quality of the provider. You evidently
did/do not experience DSL as would a field consultant or average small
business. See DSLReports, et al. for pages upon pages of evidence.

>> As  I  said  in  one  of  my posts, the right provider knows how to
>> connect  CPE  and  DSLAM  reliablyI  don't  give  a hoot about, and
>> generally  would  have  no  reason to trust--given the slim margins
>> that most DSL ISPs run on--

> exactly,  DSL belongs to the telcos, if not now, then med/long term,
> world  over.  The  LL  unbundling  is political window dressing, pro
> forma   game.   The  telcos  will  never  play  nice  with  the  DSL
> independents renting their copper.

I don't know part of my passage you're commenting on here, but you did
leave  out  the  most  important  part, the last phrase "...their SMTP
prowess." I'll say it again: whether telco or indy DSL provider, there
is  neither  empirical  nor  theoretical reasons to believe that their
SMTP skills and systems are superior to those of a small business with
bright IT.

-Sandy

P.S.  I  might actually have *encouraged* AOL for home use in the past
if  they  didn't  provide  such  a  vile  temptation  to small or solo
businesses,  to  whom  they  cannot  provide  reliable service. As the
personal  account  will  always  have far better payoffs for spammers,
their  extreme  defensive measures would be far more reasonable if the
only     incoming     traffic     were     personal-to-personal     or
spammer-to-personal.  The  presence of incoming business-critical mail
to  AOL  (yes,  the  term  is  used  in  boardrooms the world over) is
saddening. If it weren't for that phenomenon, there'd be somewhat less
to  argue  about,  since millions of 9-to-5 IT pros then couldn't care
less what they did with their mail.


------------------------------------
Sanford Whiteman, Chief Technologist
Broadleaf Systems, a division of
Cypress Integrated Systems, Inc.
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------------


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