Bob (Murphy) dear,
I also agree (in a non-icky, non-gushy way) sooo much with all you write -
except for that same one point that you originally disagreed on, of course!
:-)
Really, your example about how the list could be taken over by radical
animal rights activists, that is exactly what I felt too - but I seem to
come to one slightly different conclusion, that is that recently I have
begun to doubt whether self control alone will sort it all out.
How can we trust "self control" so confidently, if in fact we have already
lost so many people, including yourself, to "JC only"? Especially as they
admit it is only the nature of certain political arguments that's making
them do so? Is that the natural ebb and flow that we want to accept? And
to take your example, how would you get PETA members to apply self control?
I would be so happy if this JMDL spirit and self control sorted everything
out again, and people now say "look, it's getting better already" - but how
long before we have another crisis like this one? And what about the people
we've lost already?
The only way I could even begin to believe it, is if people like you and Bob
Mueller and many many others (Mags, Mark, Ken, etc etc) came back to NJC!
(What I mean is, it's fine for people to be on JC only if that's what
they've always wanted: just Joni info. But I'm concerned about all the
other people who wanted broader discussions and are now disappearing...)
I think if we end up with a separate PC list, that would be a worse outcome.
What will be considered Political? And I would not want to miss everything
political, just the excesses. If this was just my feeling, I'd be happy if
it were ignored, but from carefully reading all the replies (including
yours), it is clear that that is not the case.
One more thing, about that "we can just delete what we don't want to read"
argument. I think it only works to a point.
For some reason, it feels different, deleting (or in my case scrolling past)
a cricket message from Azeem, which leaves me with a good feeling because I
like to see him being enthousiastic about it, even if I don't know what a
cricket ball looks like, and don't want to know! Same with details about
guitars or tunings that I know nothing about - they're just great!
But with politics, we cannot claim ignorance so it sucks us in, I don't feel
so good having to delete those posts when there's too many of them, or when
they turn unpleasant. And worst of the worst, to see people I like and
respect attack other people I like and respect, is just the pits!
And - OK, one MORE thing! - I agree that it just doesn't make sense for
newcomers to resent the closeness that exists between "older" members. When
I carefully joined (to use Sarah's image of this being a virtual pub) I just
sat there quietly and observed for a while. I got a kick out of the
friendship that I saw between others. I never resented not getting it all
immediately myself, I felt I had to earn it - I still feel I have to earn
it, and that feels just fine! In fact nobody owes me or any newcomer
anything, it is a privilege to be taken into any group, and I am still
amazed how generous and welcoming this group really is.
I'll stop now. Les started this discussion without an NJC tag so I've kept
it that way, but I do try to respect the JC onlies and apologise if they
resent all these posts. Hopefully it won't be long!
Lieve.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 9:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The State of the List
(snip)
POLITICS
I prefer not to post political stuff here, but I don't mind that
others do .
. . up to a point. The political content has grown so much and has
gotten so
personal that, like Lieve, I agree that reading the list doesn't
feel good
anymore.
(snip)
One can argue that these are dire times, and that important issues
such as
Iraq need to be discussed here and now. But you know what? Any time
is always
"dire times" for somebody. There are people here who are, for
example,
vegetarians and post about that subject from time to time, which is
fine, of
course. But what would we do if radical PETA members joined the list
and were
relentlessly pushing their views here -- on the Joni Mitchell
Discussion
List! -- day in and day out? And what if they were constantly
engaged in
debate by the list's meat-eaters? Well, then we'd have the exact
same
situation we have now, but with a different topic.
My suggestion? Self-control. Post political content moderately. If
this
doesn't work for a predetermined period of time -- say three months
-- then
I'd hope that Les might think of adding the PC tag so that people
who don't
want to read political content can be spared having to wade though
all the
poop that gets posted. I would join that list today if it became
available.
Lieve also said:
<< I am thinking of a panel made up of, say, Les, Ashara and the 2
Bobs (M).
>>
Thanks, Lieve, for that vote of confidence in my policing abilities!
I have
often been told I look like a cop! ;-) I have to tell you though, I
HATE THIS
IDEA! And that's not just because Les (list owner), Ashara
(JMDL/JoniMitchell.com fundraiser and NE Jonifest planner), Bob
Muller
(covers king) and I (Joni in Fiction) all have other duties here. I
seriously
doubt that anyone on the list wants to become Director of Joniland
Security!
So . . . INCLUDE ME OUT!
CLIQUES/IN-HUMOR/ALLEGED INNER CIRCLE
John S wrote:
<< I know that there are groups within the list who are close
buddies - I
love that, I don't feel left out because I'm not one of them. >>
Amen. If I can't post about Jimmy's next water ballet or Ashara's
tofu habit
or Kakki's martinis or Bree's chocolate gifts, then I don't want to
be here.
I was once a newbie and I couldn't understand half of what I read
here . . .
what the hell Bob Muller's covers were all about, or when certain
people were
serious or joking . . . but I stayed around. That's part of the
discovery and
adventure of trying something new. If I moved to some small town in
Finland
tomorrow I wouldn't expect to be able to speak the language right
away, or to
know the local celebrities, politicians and other characters that
make up my
little village! But I would get myself a little phrase book, get the
papers,
listen to my new neighbors and then PARTICIPATE in my new life.
(snip)
As always, THANK YOU, LES, for putting up with us. Sometimes I
really do feel
bad for you because you generously let us all swim in your wonderful
pool
even though so many of us have been known to pee in it!
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