https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286
--- Comment #32 from NSLW <lukasz.wojnilow...@gmail.com> --- (In reply to Michał Dybczak from comment #28) > Why? One of the most common motivators for people is when we see something > we don't like, instead being passive and whiny, we take action to improve > things. Nothing shameful in that, in fact, this should be admirable, because > most people will only complain and won't even try to do anything. The need > to improve even one thing is how things start and it may evolve in something > more but it has to start somewhere. You wrote "fight". I think that word sets negative scene and attitude for discussion. I think there is nothing easier than to stand in majority and throw stones at minority here. I don't find it admirable. > Thank you for clarifying it. I was just being general because I don't have > all the facts and that is why I used the word MAYBE. I'm also an outside > person without means to know all such details but from what I can remember, > very few people were currently working on translators and very few were > major contributors - that is what I got from the discussion. Again, note I > wasn't giving any absolute statements showing that I accept I might be off > with this info. OK. One doesn't need to be inside person to know all this. The information is public and all one needs to do is to analyze it. I'm concerned that facts are based on what other people say, because I would like facts to be independent of how people processed them. > You are just nitpicking on the details hich is a bad attitude that is super > common among polish internet communities (of any kind). I guess this is some > flaw in our culture. It's very hard to discuss something seriously when > someone is constantly nitpicking and splitting hairs in two and it's a form > of an attack, which is not a way to discuss things constructively. By me bringing details is nitpicking for you because contribution in Polish translation is not what you wanted to discuss? > You seemed to miss the point. The system is so antiquated that it's not > comprehensible by modern standards and that simply creates a huge barrier > which I bounced off of it. I wanted to contribute because it feels fair to > try when I already voiced my opinion. I didn't even have chance to do that > because there was no one to help me with that, although I clearly asked for > it. Yes, this is so confusing that if you want fresh blood, you must guide > them like children. I expected some site, account with certain rights and > access to the files that I can work on plus some modern way of communication > on the project. > So I had a genuine desire to help or at least try to, yet I'm bashed that my > motivation is disappointing and that I didn't contribute anything. This is > absurd and a vicious, and unfair circle. Sorry, I based my observation on the fact that on kdei18n-pl-devel and kdei18n-pl-uwagi under your name I only found your request for changing translation of "krypta" and "zaniechaj" and in my inbox did not found any e-mail from you asking me to join translations. How did you try to get involved in translation then? > Well, I agree that I stated it too strongly. However, from my perspective it > looked like this: > > - I submitted the bug about the translation of "the vault" and had zero > response > - after a while I did see the corrected translation, I was happy, but I had > no way of knowing if me taking action was the trigger or maybe the > translator (you) realized the mistake on your own, or maybe someone > submitted that problem on other, more proper channels > - so in the end I didn't feel like my voice was heard, even if translation > was indeed fixed The information on discussion list might have been lost initially. That happens. You wrote to me directly and received response, that it will be corrected either in some definite time or as soon as you submit correction earlier to me. Have you read attached e-mail? > When I raised my voice about the Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj, I felt ignored again. > > This is probably a fault of the antiquated system. We don't know how to > communicate with each other (developers with users) so it creates unpleasant > situation on both sides: you feel as if your work was not apprciated, we > feel that our feedback is not appreciated or even heard either. What would you suggest to improve situation? > I'm happy to hear that my submission helped thou. Thank you for letting me > know. You're welcome. > I absolutely don't understand you now. If I was agreeing with you, there > would be no discussion or any reason to communicate in that case. Why > fighting for the argument is a bad thing? You do it, so why can't I? > Fighting for something doesn't mean that we can't establish any consensus > or understanding. After a fight you might reach consensus and understanding as you wrote. I see fight as not required to reach consensus and understanding. > When I was trying to > admit how good job you done and that you maybe have no enough contributors, > you commenedt I was ungrateful and aggitative... You gave me unsolicited praise and I've feel obliged to give praise in return. I think the discussion should not be about praising each other. I feel unjust because I didn't call you "ungrateful and aggitative". I would like you to be reading my sentences and not replacing words in them. > Can you imagine how frustrating it is when you compliment someone, try to > reach a hand and the other person just bashes you? Do you feel frustrated because through showing your appreciation you wanted to achieve trust and cooperation? > First, with so huge project there has to be a hierachy, otherwise there is > simply chaos. No bigger thing can arise from that. OK, you see it differently. As you've seen from the answer I gave Luigi Toscano, https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c26 I'm not hierarchical person. > Secondly, if you voulenteer, you are doing things not for yourself, > otherwise why publishing your work? So everything you do is affecting users. Please see my answer I gave Przemysław Formela https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c31 so that I mustn't duplicate content. > Third, a community member has a right to give a feedback, because this is > often the only way we can help. If we feel misunderstood or ignored, then > yeah, things may become too emotional, but there is a reason why this is > that way. If we could discuss on the same level with you it may have been > different but we can't, we don't have the knowldge and experience but we can > try to show you how important it is for us. I read so much off-topic text around it that I feel confused because I would like to focus on what difficulties do people have with using "zaniechaj". > There are thinhgs that indeed should be decided without discussion, but some > things need to be discussed. Both extremes are bad where either we talk but > not work or work but no communication appears, then work deralis from its > course. You are helping us so our feedback should be of value. The case of > Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj is such a case where community shouldn't be disregarded > and the decision shouldn't be just yours. I've got impression that we are making loops here. I believe I've answered you that earlier. > Thank you for your insights, this is interesting to know but I'm not sure > what are you trying to tell here. Are you comparing git system to overblown > burocracy? Gerrit (the system used there) is git system integrated with code review service. >From my experience, processing my simple 60 translation units by reviewers goes slow there. Now it's a week without any response. KDE is around 220 000 translation units and managing it by system like that, would cause massive slow down. > I don't thing you are listening to me either. So maybe I'll stop here with > the discussion and go to the point of this bug submission: > > 1. You wrote somehwere that "zaniechaj" is perfectly understandable and that > is good enough for you (I can't find the quote right now, the discussion got > a bit too complex to follow). > > This was not the case for me. When I first saw "Zaniechaj" I was starring at > it and was confused. What is it? What does it do? I didn't understand it. > The years of seeing Cancel=Anuluj (almost 24 years!!!) engraved so strongly > that seeing "Zaniechaj" in in this context was completely unclear. I was > starring a good few minutes on the window, seeing 3 buttons and trying to > decide which is the new Anuluj... Of course I figured it out eventually and > it wasn't that hard but the first experience was super confusing and it took > me some time to learn to click "zaniechaj" with certainty. For a long time I > was stopping to try to asses where is this Anuluj button now? > > So no, this wasn't clear at all. It is now but I still don't like it from > various of reasons. So you saw "zaniechaj" - new thing on your system - one day. Did you feel confused because you would like your system to be stable as to not change too much? > 2. You wrote: > > ""Zaniechaj" appeals to Polish language speaker. It's not a new technical > term, > it's also not an archaic word. In that sense it dejargonizes the language." > > Windows by being so long on the market and by being diminant system created > a standard and I'm sure I'm not the only one accepting that standard. The > confusion I wrote in previous point stem from the context and the years of > consistant usage - this is how the new language standards are created. I guess you're born in Windows (and not MacOS) standard. Do you feel used to it and would like to belong to it because it's prevailing? > "Zaniechaj" is OK word anywhere else but for Cancel button on a desktop > system? No, I've never seen that before so this word wasn't clear at all > when I saw it used like that for the first time. It seems that "anuluj" has special place for you. Do you see "anuluj" as jargon word then? > 3. You wrote elswhere: > > "Preserving use of Polish language is extremely important reason for me." > > The problem here is, you are completely disregarding history and the context > of that translation and usage of the world Anuluj. The language is a living > thing and over the years it became a new standard and you are trying to > force a translation outside of the context. There is no back in time at this > point. Please read what was already mentioned. According to linguist Mirosław Bańko "zaniechaj" fits in software context and could replace word "anuluj". > It's as if you translated a books for surgons by dejargonizing the language. > This would be an usuable crap. The same thing happened with Tolkien > translation when someone tried forcefully use polish words for names and > words everywhere possible. I bet you know the story and how people hated it. "Hansel and Gretel" has been translated into Polish with title included and I suspect few know the original title of this fable. The same with "Winnie Pooh". Please try to concentrate on success stories. > There is a very good reason to claim that Cancel is Anuluj in the desktop UI > world. Preserving Polish language is a noble goal but with that one is > already too late. The standard is already created. That is why we are > discussing here. I think it's never too late, too early, too risky, too high, too steep, too hard, etc. to pursuit noble goals. > 4. "Zaniechaj" is too similar to "Zastosuj". > > UI design is not always consistent so the buttons look different, there is > sometimes Cancel/OK pair and sometimes Cancel/Apply/OK, the buttons may have > differnt position, look (Gtk, Qt, libre UI, etc.). > > We relay on automatisation and habits. Having clearly differnt words > Anuluj/Zastosuj is a good practice whole Zaniechaj/Zastosuj is just a bad > lingusitical design so to speak. I agree that "Anuluj" is more different from "Zastosuj" than "Zaniechaj" but nevertheless I think they seem readily distinguishable when put together. I'm not an expert on human eye, but I believe it's trained to distinguish words very well. > 5. > > I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to > > abide to the standard of Polish language. I think it's nothing unusual > > because MacOS didn't abide to Windows standard for a relatively long period > > of time and we don't know why they've softened. > > But Windows did create standars for Polish language! Desktop PC systems > weren't a thing before. Windows played a vital role and it created a new > Polish standards for this specialization. MacOS didn't play and still > doesn't play any bigger role in Poland. This may be changing when the > society is becoming wealthier but this is a secondary phenomenon. Windows > created a standard and change our language already. I see, that you're justifying righteousness by strength of Windows, MacOS or wealthy people. Please read my opinion I gave Jarosław Staniek https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36780815/ so that I musn't duplicate content > 6. The new translation of a term should be caused by a need and I don't > think that community asked for it. The need to preserve the polish language > is unfortunatelly not something that community would share. Usability is > more important here and becaus of the standard plus the distinctivness, > Anuluj is far better, if not the only correct translation here. If one is adapted to something then his need for everything is to stay as it was, so that he mustn't adapt again. It's then important for one how to get by and not how to be correct. That way you would have no improvement. > 7. There are many things that are left for your decision where you can > fulfill preserving Polish language goal. However, Cancel button is too > important and there should be no freedom of translating it, not today. It's > a very strict and clear part of the UI that is super important, so it's > important to avoid any confusion and use widely accepeted standards. After reading that paragraph I feel confused because I cannot get any clarity from it. I would like to mirror it at you. Translating "cancel" is important to me to get this part software wording correct and I would like to do it today. > > I'm trying to help you put yourself into our shoes. We are confused and > unhappy with that translation. We are unhappy to a point to start a long and > sometimes unpleasant discussion. Months have passed and we are still not > forgetting and we are still not accepting the change. This should tell you > something. That paragraph tells me that I should feel guilty which disturbs my peace. I would like you to stop describing to me situations as you see it through your own eyes because it adds unneeded drama. > Your work is important to us and that is why we are talking. Your voluntary > service has a meaning because of us - users. It's already unpleasant for us > to fight for rights to be heard. You have the power to change the > code/translation but we are users of that code/translation so our opinion > should have weight in that case, even if we didn't contribute to the > translations over the past. In a way, we are trying to contribute to it > right now the only way we can. After you giving me the "power to change code/translation" I feel unease. KDE isn't my organization, translation could be changed by anyone and my only power is that I'm able maintain KDE Polish translations. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
