https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286
--- Comment #38 from NSLW <lukasz.wojnilow...@gmail.com> --- (In reply to przem.formela from comment #36) > > According to https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/ > > "The human brain is wired to see structure, logic, and patterns. It helps us > > make sense of the world. In the 1920s a group of German psychologists > > developed theories around how people perceive the world around them, called > > Gestalt principles." > > I think we might be over-stretching scope of gestalt principles which are > > about structure, logic, and patterns. I'm not sure if Luigi meant that > > specifically or in general, so I think we might slightly went off-topic > > here. Nevertheless thank you for your explanation. > > [...] > > "The principle of similarity states that when things appear to be similar to > > each other, we group them together. And we also tend to think they have the > > same function." > Isn't this exactly the case, though? I'm not sure after reading "Examples of the similarity principle" on https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/ Could you tell me why did you originally think that I ignored the rule of similarity? > On every other OS you can encounter > windows with up to three buttons: OK, Cancel, Apply. Person using Android, > Windows, Mac expects there to be these three buttons, named consistently > across all platforms. Because that's the pattern they know or, well, at > least I do. Further explanation in the next point. I get impression that you're using all those systems and have certain certain expectations and preferences to them. I used or worked in them as well. For me translation of word "cancel" wasn't the key to master those OS's. Nothing which I remembered from Windows has helped me to get around on MacOS. Waste bin on Android is not by default on my "desktop" and god knows how to add it there. Would you mind telling me why do you put such pressure on "cancel" being translated in the same way if Android, MacOS, and Windows have many basic quirks and features so different? For example, don't you want MacOS minimize/maximize/close buttons which are on the left side of window title bar to be on the right side like "in all other OS's" as well? > I know what both of these do. But I don't **read** button text, I **look** > at it. That's even one of principles of quick text reading, if I remember > correctly. > I'm not in a research mood to point to specific papers but I'm pretty sure > that's what people do most of the time, when interacting with UI elements as > well. > So, in this case, user doesn't read three buttons: "OK, Anuluj, Zastosuj". > They see "Button with OK, Button with A..j, button with Z...j". When we > switch from "Anuluj" to "Zaniechaj", we end up with two buttons having > "Z..j", thus disabling the ability to quickly estabilishing function of the > button with a glance and extending the time it takes to actually choose the > desired button. I'm not sure why have you replaced inside letters with dots. That conflicts with my need to see shape of a word or its upper/lower part to guess what's the word is. Is covering inside letters a method that allows you to read words faster? > > > The way you approach actual feedback given to you isn't community- > > > nor improvement-oriented. > > > > I presume that you don't see this change as making anything valuable to you. > > In our devel list I wrote: > > "My motivation is to promote the use of Polish language and enhance its > > quality > > in software." > > Don't you see it as improvement of Polish wording in software? > I'm sorry, but I really don't. "OK" is not a polish word. "Kontynuuj" isn't. > "Menu" isn't. I don't see a point in having well-known "Anuluj" replaced > with a word, which is "more Polish" by some standards I really don't > understand. You mention many outside words for which native replacements would be difficult to find. It's not difficult to find native replacement for "anuluj". It's why I think that word is redundant in our language and instead of helping Polish, it takes its distinctiveness. I looked at other languages in KDE to see if "OK" is spread only in Polish and found that it's spread all over the world :) There are some exceptions though: 1) In Ukrainian OK is translated as "Гаразд" which I believe means "dobrze" 2) In Spanish OK is translated as "Aceptar" 3) In Catalan OK is translated as "D'acord" which I believe means "zgoda" By that example, I would like you to see that even such popular and understandable word as OK has been replaced by local words. I think, that "D'acord" gives a special feeling that one uses Catalan. > I'm sorry, I didn't want to make you feel disrespected. It just seems to me > that in this case, Polish language and community might be at odds and your > work will benefit either of those, but not both. I find that paragraph well said. It makes me sad though because I expected that every Pole would like to have more Polish words in his vocabulary thus making his language more autonomous and thriving. > > Please don't try to make false accusations. I do not try to make people go > > away from KDE. > What I meant here is that, for me, this is an expected **result**. As I've > explained above and below, this decision impairs productivity. I get that you see some inherent qualities of "zaniechaj" as impairing productivity. I follow-up "above and below". > Having understandable labels is not enough for UI to be good. If it was, we > wouldn't need icons nor colors to differentiate elements. > I will understand what the button means when I read it, but I prefer to do > that without having to actually read it. I get, that you read "zaniechaj" every time and cannot do it otherwise now. Would you mind telling me what stops you from memorizing "zaniechaj" just as "anuluj"? > I'm pretty sure a person who never used a computer before and never will use > DE other than KDE won't have problems with your decision. They'll learn > quickly enough that "the second button always cancels" and when they'll want > to cancel, they'll use the second button. Easy-peasy. > But for people coming from any other graphical interface, this will be a > problem. The buttons might be ordered differently, so placement itself won't > be enough. Icons? Some DEs have those, some don't. Having at least this one > similarity helps tremendously when switching to KDE or working on many > different systems daily. >From above paragraph I get impression that clicking buttons is some arcade game. Thus it's difficult for me to relate because I see it as a thought process i.e. a question is asked, I want to answer it but have no freedom because my answers are predefined, so I have to choose one of them. In real life, if someone would ask me e.g. for a favour, I would have freedom to answer and could say: "OK", "Tak" (English Yes), "Zgoda" (English Agreed). All the answers aren't similar to each other but convey the same meaning. Both persons understand and don't limit themselves on used variants because it doesn't impair understanding. > > > https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/anulacja;13028.html > > > > Thank you, but what did you want to show with that example? > I wanted to show you that "Anuluj" and its derivatives can surely be > considered polish words, since they are part of Polish language's text > corpus. I get, that by seeing a word in Polish language text corpus is enough for you to consider word Polish. I don't agree with that. I think a word can be considered Polish if it stems from within Polish culture. The "Anuluj" clearly stems from Romance language culture. The word is in dictionary to explain its meaning. > In my opinion, there were probably many words that were part of polish > language that are not anymore because of "outside" (latin, french, english) > influences. Yet nothing wrong happened with the language, it's still Polish, > just a new version of it. I believe forcing this change on others just for > the sake of purity, whatever that exactly means, is not a good solution here. So you're conscious of outside influences and disappearing mother language words but see nothing wrong with it. Do you feel at ease because what's important to you is to be able to clearly communicate with whatever words are in circulation? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
