*sigh* :) This one's going to be a long one, so bare with me. --
1) Silky is just vocal and yeah he may go against the grain, but in the end he is a customer of Microsoft and whether I agree or disagree with his views, I'll still give him the time/day to voice them. As for the snowflake comment. We are in what, year 2? And already we are exceeding our critics expectations and more over, our competitors. The story with Silverlight will continue to get better as we aren't being reactive, we are keeping calm and pushing forward with what we think is a good bet. Our competitor has been reactive and are busy fighting fires on many fronts, and all the power to them. As from growing ground swell from 0 to where we are today, that has been an enormous effort undertaken and lists like this are a testament to this. The community and technology is growing, but we aren't just building a runtime - we are building a UX Platform all with interconnecting pieces (Tools, Services, Communities etc) and there is no "instant deploy" button (wish there was). 2) I need to pick my wording more carefully around you :) - It's not that "I don't get it" I disagree with it. There is millions upon millions of .NET friendly folks from around the world who are keen to explore/adopt the new Sivlerlight ecosystem as well as many thousands of folks whom are also keen to use both Flash and Silverlight. Right now, it's much easier conversation to work with the folks whom understand Microsoft tools & culture - or have invested in Microsoft technology already - than it is to worry about convincing the folks loyal to the Adobe brand that we have just as strong offering. Doesn't mean we won't spend our energy and time doing so, just that our existing customers are just as important as new customers. That's the simplicity of it all, grow but don't lose sight of the customers that gave you success in the first place. The overarching message is that this is not a zero sum game, you can use BOTH. If you don't like Silverlight or you think based on your own investment, skill set and resources made available that Flex is a better solution - then choose Flex. I'd rather you pick a solution that best suits your skills, budget and long term plans then one that is a forced fit. As this is a short term win, massive long-term loss. To put it in perspective, Barry you're in the top 1% of the Adobe developer pyramid, in that you have skills that have been nurtured and cultivated because you've spent time with the right people over the years (I know as I was also there alongside you). The trick isn't so much "why did company xyz choose Flex", I suspect you influenced the discussion or will influence it, but the real hurdle you will face is simple, finding another Barry as you don't scale. How many ActionScript 3.0 developers exist in Brisbane? How many .NET developers exist in Brisbane? This is where we see our difference, in that we aren't focused just on the runtime, we are also focused on ensuring there is a vibrant ecosystem. Silverlight's coming from behind, that's ok.. we'll get there eventually, especially when we have partners like Readify whom are teaching troops in multiple cities as well as whom foster this list. Flash has a lot of pro's and con's associated to it, you know I know them much better than most and if I weren't a Microsoft employee, I'd unload a blog post or two on what these are and where they sit. The fact is, I'm a blue badge and have to watch what I say and when - especially being a Product Manager now. I'd love to get knee deep into a compete debate, but it creates to much controversy and folks at times simply see it as "Microsoft vs Adobe" (not to mention Adobe staffers just got nuts at it) and it detracts away from the intent to air the concerns/misinformation associated to the technology. I will say this however, the experiences aren't always the same and we also have a platform agnostic approach. Silverlight IS x-platform and will continue to grow beyond the operating systems and into other areas (i.e. devices etc). Our intent is to not just be platform agnostic but also provide developers the ability to actually write once and deploy to many (do I need to remind you of the actual workflow in design to develop with Adobe technology). Flash, Flex, Flash Lite, AIR etc all don't offer this. It's still a fragmented conversation and even with Breeze / aka Adobe Connect it's still skewed. Our tools like Visual Studio 2008, will enable this to happen alongside Expression Studio, if it doesn't .. tell us as I guarantee you there are many ears keen to cover off blind spots we may have. 3) Why would we? Flex Framework maybe open source, but the runtime isn't, and so given our intent to fix the entire UX story around Microsoft technology, we are now building a platform to suite. In doing so, hitching our carriage behind a runtime that we have no control over or influence is simply too dangerous (both for us and our customers). Given Adobe/Macromedia mistakes of the past, we in turn are held hostage to the runtime's future evolution which in turn means our customers are as well. It doesn't stop with the runtime either, the actual SWF itself is owned by Adobe and they also decide its fate / future. Given the Software + Service strategy we have painted for our future, it just doesn't fit. We are committed to interoperability and with formats like OOXML & XAML it's clear we mean it. Some will disagree, that's fine, but we will push on head just the same as in the end these are ways to ensure that folks don't end up with past mistakes, like having binary .doc files that take a lot of effort to deserialize. Today, you get a docx file which is a zip file that can be leveraged by anyone - even Adobe are using docx with their acquired product - Buzzword. That's what makes us different, we are committed to interoperability and Adobe isn't. Adobe are welcome to use our technology and the bulk of their sales come from customers using Microsoft products, it's nice to on one hand denounce us while at the same time use us. We are annoyed yet delighted and that's the beauty of Microsoft, we have many faces to our products/services and don't buy into the "Us or Them" arguments. In the end Barry, this is a much bigger Petri dish and the Adobe community are measured in thousands. Microsoft community is measured in millions, it's the raw facts and it's not because we tricked the world into buying our products year after year. We do a lot of good along with our customers who exceed our expectations year after year. It's simply because we approach things with long term vision and never with a short term focus. If we make mistakes, we regroup, fix and get a release out the door as fast as humanly possible while keeping quality assurance as close to perfect as we can. You win some battles, and you lose some but you keep moving forward. Adobe and Microsoft will eventually go separate paths in this Silverlight vs. Flash debate. You saw hints of this at MIX08 where we went out of our way to show what you can't do with Flash. We will have a set of features that have "Me to" associated to it, but we're more excited about innovation and putting things right in this space, as that's where the true fun begins. 3D inside Flash is over-rated, as in the end only a handful understand how to use it and those that do, aren't doing much with it. Outsmart is probably the only company worldwide that has done something significant with 3D but could a mining company use Fake 3D to explode schematic diagrams for parts ordering? - nope. Let's talk about real 3D instead? -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barry Beattie Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:43 AM To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com Subject: Re: OT: Silky vs Microsoft was RE: [OzSilverlight] Silverlight 3.0 wishlist, now's your chance. ya poor bugga' Scott - you've really got your work cut out for you... 1) it's a shame that all the nice Silverlight folks on this list (yeah I've been lurking since it started) will have their passion undermined by short-sighted tossers like Silky. Sadly, while the numbers are small, there's still too many "Silky's" in the MS sphere with a blood-sucking mentality: too interested in get rich quick instead of growing the pie. These Silverlight ppl here get it - elsewhere most don't. (present company excepted) too busy to sell you controls instead of getting off collective backsides and just making it happen - many hands make light work of the sourcecode: http://code.google.com/p/flexvizgraphlib/ (**see below) I'm starting to think you haven't got a snowflakes chance in hell at the moment in trying to establish the same sort of web 2.0 collaboration and groundswell that Patrick and Downey and Stewart are tapping into - don't get me wrong, those guys are no angels nor towering intellects - but I am saying core ethos just isn't there in the same way as the ground-troups evangelism that sourounds Flex and AIR. I can say this coming from MS land - from VB5, VB6, ASP (classic), ASP.net... I offered to help turn this around - strengths and weaknesses from both camps, as you know, but time marches on and I gotta get back to the core and move on - the situation demands it. Good luck, man, you're gonna need it. 2) Silverlight features: you and I have been having the same argument for a year now, and I swear you still don't get it. you keep going on about there being more .NET developers where Silverlight can offer the part of the technology stack that Flash/Flex does while keeping it all inhouse. and I say "so what" a f'r'instance: the place I'm working at right now (yeah, I've moved) I'm developing a prototype for an app that will eventually be done in Flex. Not Silverlight. Why not? Apart from Silverlight not being ready for prime-time (for what they want), the answer is in the "bitmap manipulation" suggestion in the other thread. As soon as you make "some Silverlight runtimes are more equal than others" compromise, you're lost. It's not just pulling out the guts of the CLR for Silverlight - it's about making it _platform_agnostic_. Their supported SOE is Windows/IE and yet it makes more sense to go down a SWF path - not because of the fear of introducing the first Mac into the organisation, but to start tapping into the mobile space which they are now having to play catch-up on. with that little 1.something Mb runtime I can tap into everything from client-side PDF generation, through rich apps to powerful datavisualisations to Breeze videoconferencing/collaboration and on to 3D rich interfaces. And it's not just the fact the Flash runtime is everywhere - it's the assurance that the experiance will be identical no matter where I am or what machine I'm using. *THIS* is the choice I keep haranging you with. 3) an off-the-wall thought: (an analogy) some of the smartest (Cricket) batsmen - when facing stupidly quick fast bowlers - use the speed of the delivery to angle a shot for a cheap boundry - provide a "value-add" to the momentum created by the bowler at little cost to themselves... a la Sir Don Bradman. ... so ... ... for the life of me I can't work out why MS isn't using Adobe's pace attack. There is (or soon will be) enough open-source/published bits of the Flash/Flex runtime and libraries for MS to create their own version of controls and server products leveraging on to the Flash runtime. If you look at one way, Adobe are already leveraging off the Windows platform. Why not MS leverage off an Adobe one? Beat them at their own game providing better controls and development environment to run on a ubiquitous platform. Borland (Delphi) was doing the same leveraging off the Win32 runtime - It's nothing new. Will it sell more Windows licences? Man, that's a stale argument growing colder. The soutions are winning, not the platforms. best of luck in Redmond. call me for a beer before you leave. cheers barry.b ASP.net/ColdFusion analyist/programmer teacher/educational analyist Adobe User Group Manager - Brisbane (mutimedia tools) PS: "as i took 3 steps back financially to move from Australia to US to become a Product Manager for the Silverlight/WPF space." FWIW: While Scott and family won't starve, what he says is true. But then again, for Scott it's never been about the money - he's a pretty passionate guy where integrety is part of his ethos. b: over and out ** http://flexvizgraphlib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/vgExplorer/bin/VGExplorer.html# or perhaps (model-view-controller code generator) http://www.ericfeminella.com/blog/2008/03/31/cairngen-project-moved-to-google-code/ these are just a couple of (very) recent community projects I keep tabs on/help out with. ------------------------------------------------------------------- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net ------------------------------------------------------------------- OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net
