To avoid misunderstandings I suggest to use the terms for instruments in the
language of the most important region in which they were used. So I say
"Mandore" to the small 16/17 c. instrument because the main sources are in
France. See
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Instrumente/Mandore_Instrumente.html
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Mandore/Mandore_Musik/Mandore_Musik.html
(not completely finished - and only in German for the moment)
The "Mandora" is a German instrument.
Translations are so dangerous! What is a theorbo? In England, in France, in
Italy, in Germany? They are different instruments. Nowadays we need a clear
definition for all instruments in all centuries - not only the contemporary
ones. And so the use of the adequate language can give an important information
- perhaps with the prefix "French", "Italian"...
Best,
Andreas
Am 21.01.2013 um 19:01 schrieb Monica Hall:
> Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that
> the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature
> is 4 lines and the tuning matches.
>
> Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s -
> but how does he know that?
>
> I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact
> I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to
> Robert Spencer.
>
> The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
> is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
> napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
>
> And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately
> misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just
> been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason.
>
> Best
>
> Monica
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye" <boy...@appstate.edu>
> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Lutelist"
> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
>
>
>> Dear Monica,
>>
>> I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian
>> tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
>>
>> B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
>> (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
>> "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and
>> single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p.
>> 83]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> Thomassini 1645
>> Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte,
>> corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti
>> in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla
>> napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili
>> professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo
>> Thomassini)
>> 8-course lute in Italian tablature
>> 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
>> [RISM B/VII p. 107]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
>> [RISM B/VII p. 108]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>> ***
>>
>> These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully
>> realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of
>> courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even
>> that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the "real" 4c
>> guitar?
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>>> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the
>>> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by
>>> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown.
>>>
>>> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd
>>> that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces
>>> for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the
>>> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it
>>> was a small lute.
>>>
>>> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire
>>> for the 4-course guitar.
>>>
>>> Monica
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
>>> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
>>> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Monica,
>>>>
>>>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
>>>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right.
>>>>
>>>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg
>>>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it
>>>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly
>>>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped
>>>> instrument
>>>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible
>>>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default.
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>
>>>> Martyn
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>> To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38
>>>>
>>>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course
>>>> guitar
>>>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate
>>>> reference -
>>>> for
>>>> a small 4-course lute or mandora.
>>>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova
>>>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti del
>>>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57.
>>>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for
>>>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small
>>>> gittern/mandore-type instrument.
>>>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in Italy.
>>>> Monica
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>> To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM
>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had
>>>> forgotten
>>>> them
>>>> > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played
>>>> and
>>>> even
>>>> > written for.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sean
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > The link is at the very bttom.
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness"
>>>> <[3]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
>>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith"
>>>> > <[5]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM
>>>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar
>>>> pieces.
>>>> >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying
>>>> there
>>>> are
>>>> >> no pieces.<g>:
>>>> >> See [1][7]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last
>>>> two
>>>> >> pages)<<<snip>>>
>>>> >> References
>>>> >> 1. [8]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>>> >> 2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> >> 3. mailto:[10]lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> >> 4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> >> 5. mailto:[12]lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> >> 6. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> >> 7. mailto:[14]lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> >> 8. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> >> 9. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> > [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>> 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 3.
>>>> http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
>>>> 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 7. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>>> 8. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>>> 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Gary R. Boye
>> Professor and Music Librarian
>> Appalachian State University
>
>
