[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto

Mon, 21 Jan 2013 11:41:44 -0800 

On 21/01/2013 13:54, Monica Hall wrote:
Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown. 


The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd 
that a printed collection of lute music should include just four 
pieces for an instrument of a different type.   There are references 
to the "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) 
that it was a small lute.







Crawford Young (in 'A Performer's  Guide to Medieval Music') lists some 
of the names used up until the late 15th century for lute instruments, 
citole instruments and gittern instruments. Here are just some from the 
gittern list: chitarre, chitarra, quinterna, guisterne, chitarino, 
quiterne, ghiterra (not actually 'gittern'!) Here are some more names 
from medieval times for the little gittern from  Christian Rault: 
guinterne, gitarra, gyterne, ghiterra.




So I don't think that you have to worry that a' chitarra' is a little 
lute, it had been a little lute for centuries. The puzzle is why little 
figure-of-eight things were called guiterns, guitars etc.



Stuart



The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian 
repertoire for the 4-course guitar.


Monica



----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" 
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>

To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto




  Dear Monica,

  You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
  played in Italy'  and, of course, you're quite right.

  But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg
  lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it
  being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly

  far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped 
instrument

  - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible
  path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default.

  regards

  Martyn

  --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

    From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
    To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com>
    Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38

  I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course
  guitar

  but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate 
reference -

  for
  a small 4-course lute or mandora.
  Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova
  interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti del
  Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57.
  There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for
  figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small
  gittern/mandore-type instrument.
  There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in Italy.
  Monica
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com>
  To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
  >

  > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had 
forgotten

  them

  > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played 
and

  even
  > written for.
  >
  > Sean
  >
  >
  > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
  >
  > The link is at the very bttom.
  > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness"
  <[3]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
  > To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith"
  > <[5]lutesm...@mac.com>
  > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM
  > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
  >
  >
  >>  Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar
  pieces.

  >>  Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying 
there

  are
  >>  no pieces.<g>:
  >>  See [1][7]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39  Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last
  two
  >>  pages)<<<snip>>>
  >> References
  >>  1. [8]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
  >>  2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  >>  3. mailto:[10]lutesm...@mac.com
  >>  4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >>  5. mailto:[12]lutesm...@mac.com
  >>  6. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >>  7. mailto:[14]lutesm...@mac.com
  >>  8. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >>  9. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  > To get on or off this list see list information at
  > [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >
  >

  --

References

  1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
  2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

  3. 
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net

  4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
  6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  7. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
  8. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
  9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html






























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