There does seem to be some iconography from Italian sources. I realize this
page
http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html
is light on sources but I believe the matching guitar-shaped instrument and
violin intarsia is from the Gonzaga estate c.1507.
The intarsia is about 2/3 down the page just under the Girolamo Dai Libri
detail. It is difficult to count the pegs but the strings do appear doubled.
There are other small vihuela-like plucked instruments on the page of Italian
origin, too.
Sean
On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that
the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature is
4 lines and the tuning matches.
Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - but
how does he know that?
I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact
I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to
Robert Spencer.
The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately
misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just
been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason.
Best
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye" <boy...@appstate.edu>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Lutelist"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
> Dear Monica,
>
> I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian
> tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
>
> B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
> (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>
> GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
> "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and
> single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p.
> 83]
> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>
> Thomassini 1645
> Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte,
> corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti
> in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla
> napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili
> professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo
> Thomassini)
> 8-course lute in Italian tablature
> 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>
> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
> [RISM B/VII p. 107]
> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>
> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
> [RISM B/VII p. 108]
> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
> ***
>
> These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully
> realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of
> courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even
> that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the "real" 4c
> guitar?
>
> Gary
>
> On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the
>> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by
>> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown.
>>
>> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd
>> that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces
>> for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the
>> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it
>> was a small lute.
>>
>> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire
>> for the 4-course guitar.
>>
>> Monica
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
>> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Dear Monica,
>>>
>>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was
>>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right.
>>>
>>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg
>>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it
>>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly
>>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped
>>> instrument
>>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible
>>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default.
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Martyn
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>> To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com>
>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38
>>>
>>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course
>>> guitar
>>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate
>>> reference -
>>> for
>>> a small 4-course lute or mandora.
>>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova
>>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti del
>>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57.
>>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for
>>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small
>>> gittern/mandore-type instrument.
>>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in Italy.
>>> Monica
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>> To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had
>>> forgotten
>>> them
>>> > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played
>>> and
>>> even
>>> > written for.
>>> >
>>> > Sean
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>> >
>>> > The link is at the very bttom.
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness"
>>> <[3]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith"
>>> > <[5]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM
>>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar
>>> pieces.
>>> >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying
>>> there
>>> are
>>> >> no pieces.<g>:
>>> >> See [1][7]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last
>>> two
>>> >> pages)<<<snip>>>
>>> >> References
>>> >> 1. [8]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>> >> 2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>> >> 3. mailto:[10]lutesm...@mac.com
>>> >> 4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> >> 5. mailto:[12]lutesm...@mac.com
>>> >> 6. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> >> 7. mailto:[14]lutesm...@mac.com
>>> >> 8. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> >> 9. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> > [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>> 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> 3.
>>> http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
>>> 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>> 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> 7. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>> 8. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>> 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>> 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>> 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>> 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>> 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>> 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Gary R. Boye
> Professor and Music Librarian
> Appalachian State University
