Oh I agree! I can remember, from a few years ago, a conversation I had with a new assistant-teacher at the school for the blind that I attend. It was about spreadsheets and things like that. He wanted to know if I could access them on my braille note. Of course, that can't be done, and he was surprised by it, I think. And that made me stop and think about how truly locked in we are on those systems. If you wanted to play .ogg files on your braille note, too bad! Humanware isn't too fond of open formats. Nope, you can't install an app to fix that, or to even open .ogg files. You can't install codecs or anything to allow the "media player" to play it. You'll have to use a computer to convert the file to mp3 and all that wonderful stuff. There are countless other things that the Braille note locks you out of, but that's just one of many. That's why when people start whining about how iOs is so locked down, I think "uh, you haven't seen anything until you look at the blindness specific products". And because the blindy products can only be improved by the makers, they are very out of date. The braille plus 18 did it slightly better, but until they get all their bugs fixed, and update to android 4.2, they'll still be out-of-date. And don't get me started on the screen readers. When I got my first computer, a Dell laptop, I thought Window-eyes was so amazing and cool. Now though, we at our school rarely even use it. Now,we mostly use flaws, and even though I've told people time and time again that NVDA is good if you'll learn to use it, they still stick with the shark. The latest version implemented Vocalizer voices, which were already used in NVDA months earlier, and in Apple products years earlier. And even those voices aren't as good as Apple's in my opinion. The only thing I might miss from the windows world is Dectalk, but the Macintalk voices like Ralph and such are very close to Dectalk, so I'm not complaining. That's another thing I love about Apple. They rarely throw things away, they just improve upon things. I am currently using the Zarvox voice, and do love it, I use it sometimes when I have a headache and want a smooth voice. That's another thing. With many of the note takers, you can only use Eloquence. Personally, Eloquence has never been that remarkable to me. Its good, I suppose, but I don't see much amazingness in it besides supporting many languages, which eSpeak completely blows it away there, Vocalizer does too. Now though, some notetakers are switching to Ivona, which is a little better, but I'd prefer seroproc over that, at least from the demos and the Bushomatic thing, I could never get the live demo bar to work. So, I think that if notetaker companies would just make or use better operating systems, and not stick with the Windows CE stuff, which is out of date by like 3 or so years, then we'd probably have a better playing field. APH has gone a little better, in the original braille plus, they used Linux. In the BP18, they are using Android, but the software is still buggy, so I wouldn't recommend it at this time. But I think the company that should be held the highest in regard is Apple. Yes, I know, we've talked all about how they're so amazing and good, but truly, they've given us almost everything we could want as far as hardware and accessibility. We have computers, desktop and laptop, which are ALL accessible. We have phones, which are under the cost of a few cars and a mansion, no more mobile speak or talks. We have a PDA or small tablet, the iPod. We have a mini and a regular iPad, tablets. And they're even working on regular household appliances. And lets not forget about the Apple TV, which makes hulu accessible. So why have notetakers? I'd say, word processing. But I'm willing to bet that if we can get enough programmers who are blind onboard, we will have an accessible word processer. We will have an accessible MUD client. We will have all the programs and games and apps for iOS we want. So just have patients everyone, the Apple ride will succeed. sent from my Mac Mini with iCloud. Devin prater email and iMessage: d.pra...@me.com or r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com Skype: devinprater msn: devinpra...@live.com
On Feb 17, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: > Cheree Heppe here: > > Actually, to compare HumanWare and the likes of Freedom Scientific to models > of accessibility would be like comparing the warden of a prison to the leader > of a democracy. Both these are for profit entities which is fine, but both > do not conform to Windows or any other standards, except when absolutely > unaboidable. The reason these blindness accessibility businesses don't > conform is because they must set themselves apart from their competition. If > all of the screen reader makers, note taker builders and such followed a > standard protocol, as computer builders have been pressured by the market to > do, then, blind consumers would only have to compare based on performance. > Instead, we as a community sit through flashy demos and broad promises of > productivity only to discover, thousands of dollars and massive weeks of > struggle later, that the hype does not equal the performance. > > Remember, or maybe not, when computer builders sought to set themselves apart > by making differently configured keyboards and different command sequences > for their machines and software? The pressure of the consumer community > forced a leveling of that particular landscape so that all a consumer need > worry about involved the operation of the unit or program. > > The blindness gadgetry falls into the early mistaken mold of wanting to > distinguish itself by things other than strict performance. > > > Regards, > Cheree Heppe > > > Sent from my iPad Mini > > On 2013 Whe 16, at 20:59, Danny Noonan <da...@familynoonan.net> wrote: > >> That fine line between striving for fare access and thinking access should >> be the primary goal. Access first is HumanWare freedom and the like and I >> find using the App Store far easier and accessible than learning most of >> their offerings. >> >> It often seems to me the community is polarised between wanting to climb >> mountains and fly plains and expecting the world to totally conform to there >> wants and needs. I'll sit in the middle and work a little harder to learn >> how to do things and occasionally fail but remain truly great full for what >> I have. >> >> Thank you apple. Go ahead and make something pretty. Just so long as I can >> still use it efectively how Can I complain. You don't have to make it >> accessible at all! I will report bugs and make suggestions for improving and >> will grumble over things I don't like but I won't expect you and yours to >> make decisions based on me first. >> >> Danny. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 17/02/2013, at 1:56 AM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >> >>> Cheree Heppe here: >>> This fascinates me. Whenever a change in accessibility is made that >>> impairs us, somebody always apologizes for us by saying that we have to >>> make allowances for the visuals among us. Does that strike anyone as >>> backward thinking? >>> >>> Hanging accessibility on the visual appeal perceptions of a blind observer >>> implies that we as blind people have no idea of what is easy to use or what >>> is useful. Universal design does not mean me firster design, unless I'm >>> seriously misunderstanding the intent of the English language. >>> >>> The previous iteration worked. This iteration is convoluted and >>> restrictive. >>> >>> Earlier, Apple made the choice to ignor accessibility and ended up losing >>> the contract for the State of New York's schools because their newest >>> version of accessibility had narrowed the access so badly that those >>> needing the access couldn't use it and the Windows camp took precedence. >>> >>> I would hate to think that sort of slippage is re-asserting itself. >>> >>> My srance: The current iteration of IOS it flawed and moving farther into >>> that area. My thinking is that somebody in Apple is embarrassed to be >>> compared to a charity group pandoring to the disabled and, why don't the >>> Apple people realize that they have a normal public to satisfy, etc. >>> >>> Well, the fact remains that anyone has the potential to require disability >>> features. An accident, a careless inattention by our fellow man and we >>> have the accessibility paradigm staring us in the face. There are always >>> those pesky wars, where whole people come back with less than they left >>> with. >>> >>> Accessibility features aid everyone. There should not be a stigma in how >>> accessibility is introduced into a product. If there is doubt, the >>> accessibility tab in the IOS devices is way at the bottom of the list of >>> other modalities,. Accessibility should be intuitive and simple, so that >>> somebody newly faced with issues that already cloud their emothins and >>> judgment can just reach out and keep going with a slightly new form. >>> >>> The App Store isn't easy and isn't accessible. The IBooks store is iffy >>> and tedious to navigate as a blind user now and it didn't act that way >>> before the new IOS iteration. >>> >>> So, do I just return to paying my $75 or $50 fee and reading second hand >>> through BookShare? >>> >>> Anybody out there listening? I hope so, because Apple made a gigantic >>> stride toward equalizing the paying field. It must have really bothered a >>> few and maybe there are influences geared to making this new, shiny >>> equality a bit tarnished to turn those ungrateful blind types back toward >>> those who really know best how to care for and govern them. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Cheree Heppe >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>> >>> On 16/02/2013, at 2:31, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >>> >>> Well said, Alex. >>> Cheers, >>> Donna >>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree. While I don't use the iBook Store much, I use the App Store all >>>> the time. Once I got used to the new layout, I had no problems at all, and >>>> still don't. Yes, I preferred the old layout, but one thing we have to >>>> remember is that the iOS platform is geared toward being visually pleasing >>>> and easy to use. Putting accessibility on that should not limit Apple. >>>> That is, if it sells more devices and looks better to set things up the >>>> way they have done in iOS6, and if that new interface can be made totally >>>> accessible, then they have every right to make the change. Just because it >>>> is different, or not as easy to use at first glance, does not make it >>>> worse. For instance, one thing people forget to use in the new App Store >>>> is heading navigation, which lets you flick between the app and the >>>> selected information. You can also touch the left-most tab on the bottom, >>>> flick left once, and there's your adjustable picker of search results. >>>> Does Apple make mistakes? Yes, and plenty of them, but they sell millions >>>> of units and are trying to please a huge range of users. Do they make >>>> interfaces that are accessible but horrible to use? Yes (Garageband, for >>>> instance - you can use it, but not efficiently). Overall, though, they do >>>> their best, they have an amazing accessibility department, and, remember, >>>> Voiceover is still younger than most of the screen readers out there, yet >>>> it can easily compete with any of them. >>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Ricardo Walker <rwalker...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I must say, I'm at a total loss about iBooks and the app store. These >>>>> seem to be working fine for me on all my IOS devices. I remember a few >>>>> months back, when they first changed the app store there was accessible >>>>> issues. I think they fixed that in a month or less. And I've never had >>>>> any problems using the table index sliders. Just to be clear, I'm not >>>>> saying that you are not indeed having these issues. I'm just wondering, >>>>> could it be user error? >>>>> >>>>> Ricardo Walker >>>>> rica...@appletothecore.info >>>>> Twitter:@apple2thecore >>>>> www.appletothecore.info >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 10:57 PM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>>>> >>>>>> No need to make excuses for Apple. The IBooks store and the App Store >>>>>> have become significantly less accessible with the changing IOS >>>>>> versions. This doesn't have to happen and is a bad sign. In IBooks, >>>>>> there are horizontal rows of titles and at either end of those rows oone >>>>>> encounters a slider or something that when barely touched will shift the >>>>>> titles listings so that a blind user has a hell of a time determining >>>>>> what the list actually contains. >>>>>> >>>>>> The same slider in the contacts list on the IPhone works well because it >>>>>> somehow paces itself with the user's scrolling finger and is very usable. >>>>>> >>>>>> The App Store has these screen shots and a tiny place to flick up or >>>>>> whatever that in using the I-devices since 2010, I have not been able to >>>>>> master. The earlier iteration of the app store's accessibility worked >>>>>> so well that it was easy to read about the apps, move through a list and >>>>>> so on. I have barely used either the app store or IBooks store since >>>>>> these limitations became part of the IOS. >>>>>> >>>>>> These changes make it nearly impossible for a new blind user to get a >>>>>> confident sense of the potential for independent access that we got only >>>>>> a few IOS upgrades ago. This would be very off putting to me if I had >>>>>> acquired my I-device recently. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apple does not have to model its screen reader and access after the >>>>>> seriously broken JAWS example. I use JAWS at work and have never >>>>>> experienced a computer program so poorly equipped to do a job. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Cheree Heppe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15/02/2013, at 15:50, "Blake Sinnett" <frequency...@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> I would have to agree. Apple has lost some of their magic ever since the >>>>>> middle of last year. Things just seem to be breaking a little too often. >>>>>> iCloud, bugs in iOS 6, the maps fiasco... Who knows what'll happen next. >>>>>> Of course Tim's just taken over, so maybe after a while things'll smooth >>>>>> out. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens. >>>>>> >>>>>> Blake >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: <jshandr...@gmail.com> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:42 AM >>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> Subject: OT: iOS 6 Disappointment! >>>>>> >>>>>>> OT: iOS 6 disappointment! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is anyone else feeling a little sad about the iOS eco-system since >>>>>>> release in October. Don't get me wrong, there will always be issues. >>>>>>> However Apple has had so many issues. >>>>>>> First, you had the complete redesign of iBooks, App, iTunes store. In >>>>>>> the first release the blind community lost a lot of access, because we >>>>>>> didn't even have the ability to see ratings with the new software. >>>>>>> Second, you had the App store crashing when you would go into the >>>>>>> search area. This happened to everyone, not just our community. >>>>>>> thirdly, who can forget the map debacle. >>>>>>> You have devices going into recovery mode when you do a reset. >>>>>>> The 6. 1 update you now have exchange issue. The extreme 4s battery >>>>>>> issue, and now this morning people who use institutional accounts like >>>>>>> at schools. Individuals can bypass the no downloading option. >>>>>>> I just find this so sad. apple used to pay such close attention to >>>>>>> stability, clean UI, and of course accessibility. I still love my Apple >>>>>>> products, and hope things change under Jony Ive. Is anyone else feeling >>>>>>> slightly let down? This is just a short list, I know you could point >>>>>>> out more. I just pointed out a few which never should have happened! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> J.P. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Have a great day, >>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>>> mehg...@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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