LOL! your comparison of companies making blind specific products and companies making technology with built-in accessibility was hilarious. It is true, like comparing a Warden of a prison and a leader of a democracy. Rod
Sent from my iPhone with dictation software. Please excuse any spelling errors. On 17/02/2013, at 6:19 AM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: > Cheree Heppe here: > > Actually, to compare HumanWare and the likes of Freedom Scientific to models > of accessibility would be like comparing the warden of a prison to the leader > of a democracy. Both these are for profit entities which is fine, but both > do not conform to Windows or any other standards, except when absolutely > unaboidable. The reason these blindness accessibility businesses don't > conform is because they must set themselves apart from their competition. If > all of the screen reader makers, note taker builders and such followed a > standard protocol, as computer builders have been pressured by the market to > do, then, blind consumers would only have to compare based on performance. > Instead, we as a community sit through flashy demos and broad promises of > productivity only to discover, thousands of dollars and massive weeks of > struggle later, that the hype does not equal the performance. > > Remember, or maybe not, when computer builders sought to set themselves apart > by making differently configured keyboards and different command sequences > for their machines and software? The pressure of the consumer community > forced a leveling of that particular landscape so that all a consumer need > worry about involved the operation of the unit or program. > > The blindness gadgetry falls into the early mistaken mold of wanting to > distinguish itself by things other than strict performance. > > > Regards, > Cheree Heppe > > > Sent from my iPad Mini > > On 2013 Whe 16, at 20:59, Danny Noonan <da...@familynoonan.net> wrote: > >> That fine line between striving for fare access and thinking access should >> be the primary goal. Access first is HumanWare freedom and the like and I >> find using the App Store far easier and accessible than learning most of >> their offerings. >> >> It often seems to me the community is polarised between wanting to climb >> mountains and fly plains and expecting the world to totally conform to there >> wants and needs. I'll sit in the middle and work a little harder to learn >> how to do things and occasionally fail but remain truly great full for what >> I have. >> >> Thank you apple. Go ahead and make something pretty. Just so long as I can >> still use it efectively how Can I complain. You don't have to make it >> accessible at all! I will report bugs and make suggestions for improving and >> will grumble over things I don't like but I won't expect you and yours to >> make decisions based on me first. >> >> Danny. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 17/02/2013, at 1:56 AM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >> >>> Cheree Heppe here: >>> This fascinates me. Whenever a change in accessibility is made that >>> impairs us, somebody always apologizes for us by saying that we have to >>> make allowances for the visuals among us. Does that strike anyone as >>> backward thinking? >>> >>> Hanging accessibility on the visual appeal perceptions of a blind observer >>> implies that we as blind people have no idea of what is easy to use or what >>> is useful. Universal design does not mean me firster design, unless I'm >>> seriously misunderstanding the intent of the English language. >>> >>> The previous iteration worked. This iteration is convoluted and >>> restrictive. >>> >>> Earlier, Apple made the choice to ignor accessibility and ended up losing >>> the contract for the State of New York's schools because their newest >>> version of accessibility had narrowed the access so badly that those >>> needing the access couldn't use it and the Windows camp took precedence. >>> >>> I would hate to think that sort of slippage is re-asserting itself. >>> >>> My srance: The current iteration of IOS it flawed and moving farther into >>> that area. My thinking is that somebody in Apple is embarrassed to be >>> compared to a charity group pandoring to the disabled and, why don't the >>> Apple people realize that they have a normal public to satisfy, etc. >>> >>> Well, the fact remains that anyone has the potential to require disability >>> features. An accident, a careless inattention by our fellow man and we >>> have the accessibility paradigm staring us in the face. There are always >>> those pesky wars, where whole people come back with less than they left >>> with. >>> >>> Accessibility features aid everyone. There should not be a stigma in how >>> accessibility is introduced into a product. If there is doubt, the >>> accessibility tab in the IOS devices is way at the bottom of the list of >>> other modalities,. Accessibility should be intuitive and simple, so that >>> somebody newly faced with issues that already cloud their emothins and >>> judgment can just reach out and keep going with a slightly new form. >>> >>> The App Store isn't easy and isn't accessible. The IBooks store is iffy >>> and tedious to navigate as a blind user now and it didn't act that way >>> before the new IOS iteration. >>> >>> So, do I just return to paying my $75 or $50 fee and reading second hand >>> through BookShare? >>> >>> Anybody out there listening? I hope so, because Apple made a gigantic >>> stride toward equalizing the paying field. It must have really bothered a >>> few and maybe there are influences geared to making this new, shiny >>> equality a bit tarnished to turn those ungrateful blind types back toward >>> those who really know best how to care for and govern them. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Cheree Heppe >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>> >>> On 16/02/2013, at 2:31, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >>> >>> Well said, Alex. >>> Cheers, >>> Donna >>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree. While I don't use the iBook Store much, I use the App Store all >>>> the time. Once I got used to the new layout, I had no problems at all, and >>>> still don't. Yes, I preferred the old layout, but one thing we have to >>>> remember is that the iOS platform is geared toward being visually pleasing >>>> and easy to use. Putting accessibility on that should not limit Apple. >>>> That is, if it sells more devices and looks better to set things up the >>>> way they have done in iOS6, and if that new interface can be made totally >>>> accessible, then they have every right to make the change. Just because it >>>> is different, or not as easy to use at first glance, does not make it >>>> worse. For instance, one thing people forget to use in the new App Store >>>> is heading navigation, which lets you flick between the app and the >>>> selected information. You can also touch the left-most tab on the bottom, >>>> flick left once, and there's your adjustable picker of search results. >>>> Does Apple make mistakes? Yes, and plenty of them, but they sell millions >>>> of units and are trying to please a huge range of users. Do they make >>>> interfaces that are accessible but horrible to use? Yes (Garageband, for >>>> instance - you can use it, but not efficiently). Overall, though, they do >>>> their best, they have an amazing accessibility department, and, remember, >>>> Voiceover is still younger than most of the screen readers out there, yet >>>> it can easily compete with any of them. >>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Ricardo Walker <rwalker...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I must say, I'm at a total loss about iBooks and the app store. These >>>>> seem to be working fine for me on all my IOS devices. I remember a few >>>>> months back, when they first changed the app store there was accessible >>>>> issues. I think they fixed that in a month or less. And I've never had >>>>> any problems using the table index sliders. Just to be clear, I'm not >>>>> saying that you are not indeed having these issues. I'm just wondering, >>>>> could it be user error? >>>>> >>>>> Ricardo Walker >>>>> rica...@appletothecore.info >>>>> Twitter:@apple2thecore >>>>> www.appletothecore.info >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 10:57 PM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>>>> >>>>>> No need to make excuses for Apple. The IBooks store and the App Store >>>>>> have become significantly less accessible with the changing IOS >>>>>> versions. This doesn't have to happen and is a bad sign. In IBooks, >>>>>> there are horizontal rows of titles and at either end of those rows oone >>>>>> encounters a slider or something that when barely touched will shift the >>>>>> titles listings so that a blind user has a hell of a time determining >>>>>> what the list actually contains. >>>>>> >>>>>> The same slider in the contacts list on the IPhone works well because it >>>>>> somehow paces itself with the user's scrolling finger and is very usable. >>>>>> >>>>>> The App Store has these screen shots and a tiny place to flick up or >>>>>> whatever that in using the I-devices since 2010, I have not been able to >>>>>> master. The earlier iteration of the app store's accessibility worked >>>>>> so well that it was easy to read about the apps, move through a list and >>>>>> so on. I have barely used either the app store or IBooks store since >>>>>> these limitations became part of the IOS. >>>>>> >>>>>> These changes make it nearly impossible for a new blind user to get a >>>>>> confident sense of the potential for independent access that we got only >>>>>> a few IOS upgrades ago. This would be very off putting to me if I had >>>>>> acquired my I-device recently. >>>>>> >>>>>> Apple does not have to model its screen reader and access after the >>>>>> seriously broken JAWS example. I use JAWS at work and have never >>>>>> experienced a computer program so poorly equipped to do a job. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Cheree Heppe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15/02/2013, at 15:50, "Blake Sinnett" <frequency...@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> I would have to agree. Apple has lost some of their magic ever since the >>>>>> middle of last year. Things just seem to be breaking a little too often. >>>>>> iCloud, bugs in iOS 6, the maps fiasco... Who knows what'll happen next. >>>>>> Of course Tim's just taken over, so maybe after a while things'll smooth >>>>>> out. The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens. >>>>>> >>>>>> Blake >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> From: <jshandr...@gmail.com> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:42 AM >>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> Subject: OT: iOS 6 Disappointment! >>>>>> >>>>>>> OT: iOS 6 disappointment! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is anyone else feeling a little sad about the iOS eco-system since >>>>>>> release in October. Don't get me wrong, there will always be issues. >>>>>>> However Apple has had so many issues. >>>>>>> First, you had the complete redesign of iBooks, App, iTunes store. In >>>>>>> the first release the blind community lost a lot of access, because we >>>>>>> didn't even have the ability to see ratings with the new software. >>>>>>> Second, you had the App store crashing when you would go into the >>>>>>> search area. This happened to everyone, not just our community. >>>>>>> thirdly, who can forget the map debacle. >>>>>>> You have devices going into recovery mode when you do a reset. >>>>>>> The 6. 1 update you now have exchange issue. The extreme 4s battery >>>>>>> issue, and now this morning people who use institutional accounts like >>>>>>> at schools. Individuals can bypass the no downloading option. >>>>>>> I just find this so sad. apple used to pay such close attention to >>>>>>> stability, clean UI, and of course accessibility. I still love my Apple >>>>>>> products, and hope things change under Jony Ive. Is anyone else feeling >>>>>>> slightly let down? This is just a short list, I know you could point >>>>>>> out more. I just pointed out a few which never should have happened! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> J.P. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Have a great day, >>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>>> mehg...@gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
