Great post, Phil. And I just enjoyed reading Ron's qualified and revised opinion. Of course it's easy for some of us -- to come off "holier than thou," as if our own s*** doesn't stink. Some of us have had our share of "issues and problems" and "run-ins" with the hobby over the years. I myself have made a lot of mistakes and rude encounters, esp. during my "consumer activist" years in the late 90s and early 00s investigating auction house practices. And years ago I myself came close to ripping off my good friend Freeman Fisher during a time when I refused to believe in the Pulp Fiction advance one-sheet counterfeits. (I ultimately refunded his money and told him to keep the offending poster I sold him.) I vividly recall stories from others who questioned the "spots" above Uma Thurman's chest -- who in turn were brushed off and called "perverts" by these guys. But Dan, Bob, yourself, Bruce and many others who have policed the hobby -- far too many to mention who've handled a lot of material -- have been responsible bringing information to light to collectors. I don't care what alliances have been made or bridges re-built in the name of "harmony" or even "survival." The person in question today -- who's been reaping the benefit of a handful of "tepid-to-semi-glowing public testimonials" -- my goodness, he's one of the "better known" guys responsible for mixing bogus with good crap -- into your aptly put food chain metaphor. All of the efforts to defend their integrity is mixed in my head with the bogus Professor Powers website and other diversions in years past. I'm suddenly going to forget this? I admit, in the face of these puzzling testimonials, I DID ask myself: should I write off what happened as "water under the bridge" -- stuff that was part of the collective education of our hobby? Well, even though my opinion doesn't matter to a lot of people -- most obviously know my answer now. -kuz. -----Original Message-----Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:57:04 +0000From: p...@cinemarts.comsubject: Re: those testimonials for tlocepostersTo: mop...@sol03.american.eduwell, as we (as in professional dealers in original material and caring and knowledgable collectors) have been saying for a number of years, once these things get into the food chain of the hobby and are traded back and forth, it's going to get tougher and tougher.I was identifying suspect lobby sets 5 years ago - one of my customers paid out $1500 for several sets, and there was no question they were not the same as the originals in several aspects. He actually got a fair chunk of his money back as a refund after he let the seller know they were not the real thing.No one who has been around for the last 5 years or so can actually be shocked by any of this stuff now.... except the buyers years ago who knew nothing, were ripped off, bought fakes (one sheets, inserts, lobby sets) and now trying to cash in on their investment.... probably to keep their noses above water in the current climate.Sad but true. Round two started with the fakery of a KING KONG and a WEREWOLF OF LONDON.... that we have heard of, How many others out there wouldn't know how to look and see what it was they should be inspecting?I'm as glas I am old as I am and been in the business as long as I have. I reckon most young dealers are going to being pushing shit up hill with a thin stick in a year or two with this worthless fake junk even further entrenched in the food chain.Phil -----Original Message-----From: Bruce Hershenson [mailto:brucehershen...@gmail.com]sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 11:41 PMTo: mop...@sol03.american.edusubject: Re: [MOPO] those testimonials for tloceposters David, Sean, and Ari Thank God for voices of sanity! It is an odd coincidence that just today I sent an e-mail to all my consignors (for reasons explained within, that greatly relate to this discussion. I sent the following: "This is Bruce Hershenson. I am sending this e-mail to all of my consignors because a matter of great urgency just came to my attention. What is this important matter? It concerns the "minty white" lobby card sets I have reported on in my e-mail club twice over the past couple of years. I first became aware that the people responsible for the "minty white" insert reproductions had almost certainly branched out into lobby card reproduction sets, because I was consigned a number of sets that had the same telltale signs of the reproduction inserts (printed on a different paper stock that is glossy on front and back, a "minty white" appearance, and no sign of age). A few months later, I was consigned a bunch of new lobby card sets, which again included a lot of minty white sets, many titles of which were new to me, indicating that the people making these reproductions had likely made additional sets of different titles. I wrote a complete summary of what occurred with a list of all titles in my e-mail club message #408. If you have not read what I wrote there (or want to refresh your memory), go to http://www.emovieposter.com/club/returnmessage.php?id=474 (you will need to be a member of the e-mail club to view the message; if you are not a member go to http://www.emovieposter.com/mail/clubsignup.php to signup). While the e-mail club messages may not be of that much interest to you, you might want to scan each message each week (more so if you still do any buying or trading of movie posters, as you may find some information like the above that can be very useful). The reason I am sending this e-mail today is that I just received two large consignments from European collectors/dealers, and in BOTH consignments, were several of these minty white lobby card sets. Of course, I will not auction these and I have alerted these two individuals by direct e-mail, but the very fact that multiples of these fake sets are in European hands is very distressing to me! How did they get to Europe? One way is that the people responsible for these fakes regularly auctioned them on eBay, and they often sell for low prices that are "too good to be true", and sometimes the people who buy them are aware they may be fake, but think it is too much hassle to return them, especially since they did not spend that much money. Another way that these sets spread all over the world is that the people who printed them have a long history of "trading" them to dealers. They offer to trade their great titles (which they claim to have gotten in a "warehouse find") for dealers' slowest selling inventory, and apparently many dealers have made large trades in this fashion. Of course, they likely then go ahead and re-sell the fakes, and the people who buy from them are less cautious than they would be if they were dealing directly with the people who initially printed the fakes. Within a couple of weeks, I will be returning all "suspicious" items I have been consigned. I am not saying that I can say with 100% certainty that every single item I put aside as "suspicious" is surely a fake, but I have enough doubt that I am not willing to sell those items, and I will be returning them to the owners with a note explaining that I feel they are likely repros. In the meantime, I want to make certain that all of you who are offered complete lobby card sets from any source examine them very carefully, and also make certain that the person you get them from offers you an unconditional return policy. Note that we at eMoviePoster.com are selling many hundreds of complete lobby card sets that close this Tuesday. KNOW THAT WE EXAMINED EVERY SET VERY CAREFULLY, AND IF WE WERE IN THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT AS TO THE GENUINENESS OF ANY OF THEM, WE PUT IT ASIDE! And of course, we offer an unconditional return policy for anyone who disagrees with us (or has doubts of their own). I have a few final words about the fake lobby sets. The people who created them are getting more devious! Many of them are now found in plastic bags or glassine envelopes, similar to those actually used for lobby card sets of the 1960s to 1980s (I imagine there will soon be a market for genuine original plastic bags or glassine envelopes, which can then be re-used!). Also, a telltale sign of the fakes is that they have nothing whatsoever on the back, and that they show no signs of age. Some of the newest sets I have been sent have some pencil notations on the back, and some slight signs of aging, and I would think that the people who own these will start artificially aging them and marking them, to make them less suspicious. If any of you have any information to add to what I wrote above, please reply to me by e-mail, so I can share that additional information with my e-mail club (just under 5,000 members). And please be very careful when you buy lobby card sets, and if you DO get sold (or traded) any suspicious sets, please make sure to return them! Thanks very much.Bruce HershensonPresident, eMoviePoster.comP.O. Box 874West Plains, MO 65775http://www.emovieposter.com 417-256-9616" P.S. The above is what I sent. I find it fascinating that most of those here on MoPo who have praise make reference to "trades" they did. Obviously they have good feelings because they feel they made "great" trades, trading junk for good items! Bruce On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:43 PM, David Kusumoto <davidmkusum...@hotmail.com> wrote:
No, Sean, you are not alone. Had I more time to get involved in daily discussions, I would post more. But coming across yours, I feel compelled to comment on the "moral compass" issue. I equally object to dealing with a known seller of fakes, however allegedly "inadvertent," a.k.a. those whose testimonials have the effect of casting Mr. Loce's actions like an "honest mistake" or "just a part of doing business" in the competitive marketplace. I bought several minty whites from those guys many years ago and unloaded them all for free to friends who didn't care after I told them they were repros. (I didn't discover until LONG after I bought them that they were phony and figured my statute of limitations had run out seeking a refund for posters acquired for "too good to be true prices.") To me, it appears at MoPo we've been reading -- during the last two days -- testimonials from people who -- while not condoning the practice of selling fakes -- appear to shrug off the issue on the basis of their own personal, one-on-one dealings, e.g., sounding along the lines of, "I'm aware of the controversy associated with Mr. Loce, but because I haven't been ripped off personally (or by much) -- and because my communications with him have been cordial, friendly, etc., he appears to be an otherwise nice guy, blah-blah-blah - hence he hasn't been a crook to ME" -- with the word, "ME" being the emphasis. You get the feeling reading these testimonials that he's being re-cast as an "everyone makes mistakes" and "he's not all bad" guy because we're once again -- NOT HEARING from many of those too-g**-damn-quiet people who are afraid of him or who think it's bad manners among the "group-think" to throw a dealer or a customer -- under the bus for any reason. I am definitely sounding sanctimonious when I say I would not go out of my way to PUBLICLY defend a "friend" considered dodgy in many collecting harbors. (I might add, however, that I might approach or defend such a "friend" privately, one-on-one; but if a true "friend" accused of such behavior lacks contrition, it's safe to say I'd end that friendship.) To me, dealing with people who occasionally do business with shady characters, looking the other way so long as they themselves have not been personally ripped off -- reminds me of the time when Sue Heim's posters were stolen years ago by convicted felon Joe Hernandez and she had a list of dealers who knowingly bought the material "hot" without knowing that she personally was the victim. She had good manners and dealt with it in her own way. But she never forgot, esp. when people rushed to his defense or attempted to dilute the offenses in weird-ass ways. I would not want to be associated with, be friends with or do business with any person continuing to engage in transactions with others known for their deceptive practices. So what if you got your money back? It's not a wash just because you got some "good with bad." You simply cut your losses by being proactive or you got lucky. It's astonishing to read such rationalizations as if the guy is going through some sort of re-hab hence shouldn't be kicked too harshly. -kuz.-----Original Message-----Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:44:05 -0500From: slinkenb...@bellsouth.netsubject: Re: tlocepostersTo: mop...@sol03.american.edu I was always taught that when you can identify someone who knowingly sells reproductions as originals (for over a decade) at a minimum, and more than likely contributed to their manufacture, you should do everything you can to NOT deal with that person. The attitude here seems to be one of, well as long as he is pleasant about trying to rip me off, and as long as I can get a refund if I happen to discover his schemes I am ok in dealing with him. For some reason I don't have the attitude that it's ok to knowingly deal with someone who purposefully tries to pass off fake posters as being legitimate and who has driven countless numbers of people out of the hobby when they find out how they've been ripped off and no one warned them and/or others had the attitude of "oh yeah, most people have been ripped off by him before." I'm amazed by the lack of a moral center by the members of MoPo. But I guess that's just me. From: MoPo List [mailto:mop...@sol03.american.edu] On Behalf Of Michael BSent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:20 PMTo: mop...@sol03.american.edusubject: [MOPO] tloceposters he is getting play here. does anyone have his direct email so i can send him my want list?mbb Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
