I'm glad we did not trade anything special with this guy. Based on our one time
experience we did have our doubts, but he sounded reasonable.
We also asked him about the NSS statement in almost all auctions and this was
his reply:
A few things on your concerns ---- On the template used to list items on Ebay
I generally just say printed by NSS and excellent condition . Having been in
this business for over 35 years I do realize that NSS went out of business
quite awhile ago , just simpler when listing thousands of items to use the same
template . All my material is usually near mint / mint condition . Every once
in awhile something will slip by me in lesser condition but I will always
replace the product immediately . All my material does come from extremely
trustworthy sources and is original from studio & theater chain sources .
Occasionally something might slip by me in this area also because of the volume
I deal in ( What you see in my Ebay store in only a fraction of what I have -
close to one million units of posters & lobby cards ) .If there was anything
that was not to your liking for any reason at all I am quick to correct any
problems . I have no problem at all with sending your request to you first for
your approval . If there was something you were not happy with you could simply
send it back along with the material you would be sending me.
Does anyone have any experiences in dealing with Greg from Posterworld? We hear
a lot of the same stories about him too.
Thanks,
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: David Kusumoto
To: mop...@sol03.american.edu
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] those testimonials for tloceposters
Great post, Phil. And I just enjoyed reading Ron's qualified and revised
opinion. Of course it's easy for some of us -- to come off "holier than thou,"
as if our own s*** doesn't stink. Some of us have had our share of "issues and
problems" and "run-ins" with the hobby over the years. I myself have made a
lot of mistakes and rude encounters, esp. during my "consumer activist" years
in the late 90s and early 00s investigating auction house practices. And years
ago I myself came close to ripping off my good friend Freeman Fisher during a
time when I refused to believe in the Pulp Fiction advance one-sheet
counterfeits. (I ultimately refunded his money and told him to keep the
offending poster I sold him.) I vividly recall stories from others who
questioned the "spots" above Uma Thurman's chest -- who in turn were brushed
off and called "perverts" by these guys.
But Dan, Bob, yourself, Bruce and many others who have policed the hobby --
far too many to mention who've handled a lot of material -- have been
responsible bringing information to light to collectors. I don't care what
alliances have been made or bridges re-built in the name of "harmony" or even
"survival." The person in question today -- who's been reaping the benefit of
a handful of "tepid-to-semi-glowing public testimonials" -- my goodness, he's
one of the "better known" guys responsible for mixing bogus with good crap --
into your aptly put food chain metaphor. All of the efforts to defend their
integrity is mixed in my head with the bogus Professor Powers website and other
diversions in years past. I'm suddenly going to forget this? I admit, in the
face of these puzzling testimonials, I DID ask myself: should I write off what
happened as "water under the bridge" -- stuff that was part of the collective
education of our hobby? Well, even though my opinion doesn't matter to a lot
of people -- most obviously know my answer now. -kuz.
-----Original Message-----
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 04:57:04 +0000
From: p...@cinemarts.com
Subject: Re: those testimonials for tloceposters
To: mop...@sol03.american.edu
Well, as we (as in professional dealers in original material and caring and
knowledgable collectors) have been saying for a number of years, once these
things get into the food chain of the hobby and are traded back and forth, it's
going to get tougher and tougher.
I was identifying suspect lobby sets 5 years ago - one of my customers paid
out $1500 for several sets, and there was no question they were not the same as
the originals in several aspects. He actually got a fair chunk of his money
back as a refund after he let the seller know they were not the real thing.
No one who has been around for the last 5 years or so can actually be shocked
by any of this stuff now.... except the buyers years ago who knew nothing, were
ripped off, bought fakes (one sheets, inserts, lobby sets) and now trying to
cash in on their investment.... probably to keep their noses above water in the
current climate.
Sad but true. Round two started with the fakery of a KING KONG and a WEREWOLF
OF LONDON.... that we have heard of, How many others out there wouldn't know
how to look and see what it was they should be inspecting?
I'm as glas I am old as I am and been in the business as long as I have. I
reckon most young dealers are going to being pushing shit up hill with a thin
stick in a year or two with this worthless fake junk even further entrenched in
the food chain.
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Hershenson [mailto:brucehershen...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 2, 2009 11:41 PM
To: mop...@sol03.american.edu
Subject: Re: [MOPO] those testimonials for tloceposters
David, Sean, and Ari
Thank God for voices of sanity! It is an odd coincidence that just today I
sent an e-mail to all my consignors (for reasons explained within, that greatly
relate to this discussion.
I sent the following:
"This is Bruce Hershenson. I am sending this e-mail to all of my consignors
because a matter of great urgency just came to my attention. What is this
important matter? It concerns the "minty white" lobby card sets I have reported
on in my e-mail club twice over the past couple of years. I first became aware
that the people responsible for the "minty white" insert reproductions had
almost certainly branched out into lobby card reproduction sets, because I was
consigned a number of sets that had the same telltale signs of the reproduction
inserts (printed on a different paper stock that is glossy on front and back, a
"minty white" appearance, and no sign of age).
A few months later, I was consigned a bunch of new lobby card sets,
which again included a lot of minty white sets, many titles of which were new
to me, indicating that the people making these reproductions had likely made
additional sets of different titles. I wrote a complete summary of what
occurred with a list of all titles in my e-mail club message #408. If you have
not read what I wrote there (or want to refresh your memory), go to
http://www.emovieposter.com/club/returnmessage.php?id=474 (you will need to be
a member of the e-mail club to view the message; if you are not a member go to
http://www.emovieposter.com/mail/clubsignup.php to signup). While the e-mail
club messages may not be of that much interest to you, you might want to scan
each message each week (more so if you still do any buying or trading of movie
posters, as you may find some information like the above that can be very
useful).
The reason I am sending this e-mail today is that I just received two
large consignments from European collectors/dealers, and in BOTH consignments,
were several of these minty white lobby card sets. Of course, I will not
auction these and I have alerted these two individuals by direct e-mail, but
the very fact that multiples of these fake sets are in European hands is very
distressing to me!
How did they get to Europe? One way is that the people responsible for
these fakes regularly auctioned them on eBay, and they often sell for low
prices that are "too good to be true", and sometimes the people who buy them
are aware they may be fake, but think it is too much hassle to return them,
especially since they did not spend that much money. Another way that these
sets spread all over the world is that the people who printed them have a long
history of "trading" them to dealers. They offer to trade their great titles
(which they claim to have gotten in a "warehouse find") for dealers' slowest
selling inventory, and apparently many dealers have made large trades in this
fashion. Of course, they likely then go ahead and re-sell the fakes, and the
people who buy from them are less cautious than they would be if they were
dealing directly with the people who initially printed the fakes.
Within a couple of weeks, I will be returning all "suspicious" items I
have been consigned. I am not saying that I can say with 100% certainty that
every single item I put aside as "suspicious" is surely a fake, but I have
enough doubt that I am not willing to sell those items, and I will be returning
them to the owners with a note explaining that I feel they are likely repros.
In the meantime, I want to make certain that all of you who are offered
complete lobby card sets from any source examine them very carefully, and also
make certain that the person you get them from offers you an unconditional
return policy.
Note that we at eMoviePoster.com are selling many hundreds of complete
lobby card sets that close this Tuesday. KNOW THAT WE EXAMINED EVERY SET VERY
CAREFULLY, AND IF WE WERE IN THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT AS TO THE GENUINENESS OF ANY
OF THEM, WE PUT IT ASIDE! And of course, we offer an unconditional return
policy for anyone who disagrees with us (or has doubts of their own).
I have a few final words about the fake lobby sets. The people who
created them are getting more devious! Many of them are now found in plastic
bags or glassine envelopes, similar to those actually used for lobby card sets
of the 1960s to 1980s (I imagine there will soon be a market for genuine
original plastic bags or glassine envelopes, which can then be re-used!). Also,
a telltale sign of the fakes is that they have nothing whatsoever on the back,
and that they show no signs of age. Some of the newest sets I have been sent
have some pencil notations on the back, and some slight signs of aging, and I
would think that the people who own these will start artificially aging them
and marking them, to make them less suspicious.
If any of you have any information to add to what I wrote above, please
reply to me by e-mail, so I can share that additional information with my
e-mail club (just under 5,000 members). And please be very careful when you buy
lobby card sets, and if you DO get sold (or traded) any suspicious sets, please
make sure to return them!
Thanks very much.
Bruce Hershenson
President, eMoviePoster.com
P.O. Box 874
West Plains, MO 65775
http://www.emovieposter.com
417-256-9616"
P.S. The above is what I sent. I find it fascinating that most of those
here on MoPo who have praise make reference to "trades" they did. Obviously
they have good feelings because they feel they made "great" trades, trading
junk for good items!
Bruce
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:43 PM, David Kusumoto <davidmkusum...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
No, Sean, you are not alone. Had I more time to get involved in daily
discussions, I would post more. But coming across yours, I feel compelled to
comment on the "moral compass" issue. I equally object to dealing with a known
seller of fakes, however allegedly "inadvertent," a.k.a. those whose
testimonials have the effect of casting Mr. Loce's actions like an "honest
mistake" or "just a part of doing business" in the competitive marketplace. I
bought several minty whites from those guys many years ago and unloaded them
all for free to friends who didn't care after I told them they were repros. (I
didn't discover until LONG after I bought them that they were phony and figured
my statute of limitations had run out seeking a refund for posters acquired for
"too good to be true prices.")
To me, it appears at MoPo we've been reading -- during the last two days
-- testimonials from people who -- while not condoning the practice of selling
fakes -- appear to shrug off the issue on the basis of their own personal,
one-on-one dealings, e.g., sounding along the lines of, "I'm aware of the
controversy associated with Mr. Loce, but because I haven't been ripped off
personally (or by much) -- and because my communications with him have been
cordial, friendly, etc., he appears to be an otherwise nice guy, blah-blah-blah
- hence he hasn't been a crook to ME" -- with the word, "ME" being the
emphasis. You get the feeling reading these testimonials that he's being
re-cast as an "everyone makes mistakes" and "he's not all bad" guy because
we're once again -- NOT HEARING from many of those too-g**-damn-quiet people
who are afraid of him or who think it's bad manners among the "group-think" to
throw a dealer or a customer -- under the bus for any reason. I am definitely
sounding sanctimonious when I say I would not go out of my way to PUBLICLY
defend a "friend" considered dodgy in many collecting harbors. (I might add,
however, that I might approach or defend such a "friend" privately, one-on-one;
but if a true "friend" accused of such behavior lacks contrition, it's safe to
say I'd end that friendship.)
To me, dealing with people who occasionally do business with shady
characters, looking the other way so long as they themselves have not been
personally ripped off -- reminds me of the time when Sue Heim's posters were
stolen years ago by convicted felon Joe Hernandez and she had a list of dealers
who knowingly bought the material "hot" without knowing that she personally was
the victim. She had good manners and dealt with it in her own way. But she
never forgot, esp. when people rushed to his defense or attempted to dilute the
offenses in weird-ass ways. I would not want to be associated with, be friends
with or do business with any person continuing to engage in transactions with
others known for their deceptive practices. So what if you got your money
back? It's not a wash just because you got some "good with bad." You simply
cut your losses by being proactive or you got lucky. It's astonishing to read
such rationalizations as if the guy is going through some sort of re-hab hence
shouldn't be kicked too harshly.
-kuz.
-----Original Message-----
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:44:05 -0500
From: slinkenb...@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: tloceposters
To: mop...@sol03.american.edu
I was always taught that when you can identify someone who knowingly
sells reproductions as originals (for over a decade) at a minimum, and more
than likely contributed to their manufacture, you should do everything you can
to NOT deal with that person.
The attitude here seems to be one of, well as long as he is pleasant
about trying to rip me off, and as long as I can get a refund if I happen to
discover his schemes I am ok in dealing with him.
For some reason I don't have the attitude that it's ok to knowingly deal
with someone who purposefully tries to pass off fake posters as being
legitimate and who has driven countless numbers of people out of the hobby when
they find out how they've been ripped off and no one warned them and/or others
had the attitude of "oh yeah, most people have been ripped off by him before."
I'm amazed by the lack of a moral center by the members of MoPo.
But I guess that's just me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MoPo List [mailto:mop...@sol03.american.edu] On Behalf Of Michael B
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:20 PM
To: mop...@sol03.american.edu
Subject: [MOPO] tloceposters
he is getting play here. does anyone have his direct email so i can send
him my want list?
mbb
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