On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:25 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 03/01/21 22:34, J. Liles wrote:
Fillipe, you keep saying this "we the community" stuff. Who
elected you as the spokesperson for the community? That's part
of your problem. You think you're the self appointed
king/dictator of Linux audio.
I am not speaking for the community, nor I am leading anything. I
am rather bad at this.
When I wrote in my mail here about the "we community" I speak
about what I know of all the conversations on IRC, email and
forum threads.
So by community, I have to speak about the still sorta minority
of developers that still care about standalones and session
management.
We all came into an agreement after seeing some of your reactions
prior to the fork and reveal.
I am just the one talking here because the others are all tired
of all this drama, and just gave up trying to reason with you.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is *you* who are
difficult to deal with?
Yes, I know this from experience that I can be very hard to work
with.
Tend to be perfectionist, and caring about all the little
details, often too negative.
Often caring about the little details more than the bigger ones.
It is something I am trying to improve.
Maybe for you, try to be less accusatory?
There are many ways that *I* can think of that any reasonable,
technical goals of yours, mine and anyone else's regarding NSM
could be resolved. But please keep a little perspective here.
Sure, and disagreement is expected.
You were not smart enough to invent NSM, and yet you think
you're smart enough to improve when the person who was smart
enough to invent it disagrees with your "approach".
You were smart to invest NSM and had time dedicate for it, I am
grateful for that, thank you.
Please be reasonable as well.
I did not invest LASH, or LADISH, or JACK, or Qt, or many other
things. I dont see how that is an argument for anything..
NSM as in protocol, does not really need change. jackpatch has a
user-experience problem, but that might be unrelated to NSM itself.
The things I would like to improve are in regards of user
experience, the protocol can stay intact.
But please understand, when you ignore or even attack back
request to make the experience better for new users, how are we
supposed to act?
Nils went a step ahead and started his own GUI, yet you attack
him by not having contributing nothing of value.
So we are useless because we do not send patches for behaviour
you clearly do not want (like an export option in the SM GUI),
and yet if we go to do our thing while still respecting the NSM
protocol we are still treated like shit.
How does that many any sense??
(I would love to link to the issue/discussion in question here
regarding export option, but you removed github tickets)
I say your approach, but all you and your gang ever really came
to me with were demands that I implement things I have no and
see no use for. If you had a little skill in communication and a
little humility and a less blatant desire to bring everything
good and valuable in Linux audio under your anime umbrella, then
you could have easily gotten anything reasonable that you
wanted. Reasonable being the key word here. You can't go around
demanding people work for free to implement your poorly thought
out and unjustified whims.
An export/import option is not unreasonable, in my opinion (and
several others on the same github topic too).
You do not have a use for it, okay. So what is so bad if someone
else tries to do it?
When we open an issue/ticket on github, it is not with the
expectation that you do everything.
Sometimes tickets are just places for discussion.
Github tickets are not demands.
You have publicly slandered me, you have called my software
malware, etc. so don't pretend to be so innocent.
I do not recall ever saying such things, but I apologize. I did
not mean those things, and clearly do not think that.
Why would I willingly be packaging and using malware myself? That
doesnt make sense..
Again, I am sorry, I do not mean or meant to offend you in any
way. Maybe some rushed comment when conversation got heated?
In any case, I apologize for that.
You call my remarks "weird", and yet you're the one who names
all his programs after women (is that not "weird"?)
Oh that haha.
I guess it is just a little bias here. The reason for the C names
is just a cheap idea copy of G*, K*, Q* names that other
applications use.
Me being 11=12 years younger when I gave those names thought it
would be funny to have a suite of tools starting with C, because
it seems similar to Q for the use of the Qt toolkit.
I am not a native english speaker, coming up with good names is
hard for me.
So to remove bias, here are some other projects created by me
that do not have such names.
https://github.com/falkTX/Chibi (has C name, but not related to a
girl/woman)
https://github.com/falkTX/JackAss
https://github.com/falkTX/Hylia
https://github.com/falkTX/FluidPlug
https://github.com/falkTX/nooice
https://github.com/falkTX/los (fork of existing project,
play-on-words alike libre/openoffice)
https://github.com/DISTRHO/DPF
https://github.com/DISTRHO/DISTRHO-Ports
https://github.com/DISTRHO/DIE-Plugins
https://github.com/DISTRHO/Kars
https://github.com/DISTRHO/ProM
So perhaps there are more projects made without the C woman than
you realize. :)
Again, you can say whatever lies you want, but the proof of the
pudding is in the eating.
Please tell me any more "lies" you see. I like to be transparent,
I am trying to answer in truth to anything you might deem as a
lie here.
Other might see here it is actually the other way around.
Until I see patches for NSM, documentation patches documenting
the GUI API and your (python or whatever) GUI renamed to
something else and made dependent on NSM rather than attempting
to supplant it, then I and everyone else will know what the
truth of the matter really is and just how empty your words are.
Why would I make my application dependent on NSM?
I want my applications to be cross-platform, and work for
everyone, something you are against.
(At least it is what I understand from
https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/FAQ, forgive me if I am making the
wrong assumption here)
Carla does not intend to supplant anything, at maximum we could
say making jack-rack obsolete.
I do not see a need to change the name, but it is not totally out
of the question.
If you promise to be nicer back to me, I am willing to make that
rename without a second though. Do you have any suggestions for a
name? (and please be civil)
Also, not sure why you ask me personally to submit patches, when
you initially mentioned me as speaking for the "community".
So shouldnt the community be the one submitting patches?
There are a few things that Nils submitted, as seen in
https://github.com/original-male/non/pulls?q=is%3Apr+author%3Adiovudau
I did a few changes/fixes on the new-session-manager repo, as I
felt welcome there and that I could actually make a change.
See
https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager/commits?author=falktx
for the list, it is not much, but it is also not nothing.
Should I submit these back to the NON repo? Will they be accepted
them without me being shouted at?
Should I just accept every dumb idea and half-assed patch
without question? Is asking someone to explain themselves the
action of a tyrant? Come on.
You are fine to refuse any changes of course, but also please
understand that if many changes get rejected, devs will start
considering a fork as a necessity.
You're just trying to capitalize on the fact that I don't show
my boyish face on a github avatar or at LAC and can therefore be
painted as inhuman.
Who cares about the avatar? I do not like my own face, it is just
there because I am too lazy now to change.
I looks "boyish" I guess because it is just an old pic, I do not
like to take pictures so those I have are usually old.
You surely are human, your nickname is even original-male on
github, dont know where that nonsense comes from.
Dont hate yourself, or myself please. I am trying to be as
peaceful and nice here as I can, to a point where I am really not
sure what else to do. It is sad that I feel the need to write
"please be civil" to every single comment that I know can provide
a "gotcha" reply.
Let's all be friendly please?
The most disgusting thing about the whole affair is that you
pretend to be friendly. I don't need friends like you, Fillipe.
I'd rather surround myself with vipers.
And I am sorry you feel that way.
There are absolutely no hard feelings from my side, hope there is
a way to make it that from your side too.
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 1:38 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 2021-01-03 20:21, J. Liles wrote:
Actions speak louder than words, Fillipe.
Well yes, I am totally with you on that.
In acts of rage we do thinks that we later regret. 2020 has
been a lousy year for most people.
If you really had honor, skill, gratitude, and goodwill,
then you would contribute back to the project which you
have benefited from, rather than attempting to co-opt it in
order to win the empty accolades of Linux Audio Conference
attendees and pad your resume with the accomplishments of
others.
I really do not appreciate the personal attacks, I thought
we were past this.
But since you mention it, I can see where you come from with
some of these, but feel it is totally misguided.
I have not put any non-personal projects on my own CV, you
can see it for yourself at https://falktx.com/#cv
And you can even see the commit history for the CV
https://github.com/falkTX/falktx-web/commits/master/cv
I did take over the JACK project a bit too early, while I
was still too deep with some life issues and between jobs, I
feel guilty of that.
It took way too long from taking JACK to actually make a
proper release, and then come true to the promises to revive
the win/mac situation.
I have purposefully reduced my working hours just to have
some time to dedicate per week to open-source projects. Now
even at only 3 days per week.
So forgive me if I feel a little bit personally attacked
here. I never called you names or said swear words to you.
You know very well that we tried to have co-operation with
you in the NSM project. But all we got was friction,
sometimes even verbal abuse.
Maybe that is just how you think it should be done, but most
of the community does not think the same way.
There was more than 1 developer that intentionally did not
implement NSM support because they saw how hard it was to
get anything done and pushed for in NSM.
I tried to remain neutral all this time, promoting NSM all I
could.
The KXStudio repositories had NSM stuff up to date as much
as possible, I implemented NSM in my own tools and promoted
it as well within developers.
As an example, in the Sonoj 2019 talk about JACK, I publicly
mention that we need to push for NSM
https://media.ccc.de/v/sonoj2019-1902-jack-past-present-future
The only reason you didn't change the name of NSM to a
pandering sexy feminine name is that you wanted to keep the
acronym intact to maximize the disruptive effect on me and
my community of users and thwart efforts to get NSM
included in Debian.
Ignoring the weird remarks about sexism.. it is obvious why
the NSM name was kept.
Because we, in the community, truly believe in NSM to be a
good spec and the way to go forward in regards to session
management.
We want to push it forward and see it used a lot more, there
were just too many issues when dealing with its maintainer,
of course you.
Make no mistake, one of the big reasons NON/NSM is not in
Debian/Ubuntu is because of your actions and how you behave(d).
I do not mean this as any kind of personal attack, just wish
you would be able to see this really.
It is because we, the community, really like NSM and believe
in it, that we went with a fork, as the last resort.
We really appreciate all the work you put on it, and for the
rest of the NON suite too.
But as a maintainer, you were jeopardizing the project with
your behaviour.
Nils has some relevant things he said not a long while ago,
see
https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21772&p=121745#p121745
People can change though, so if you ever decide to give up
this campaign of deceit and disruption, then I'll happily
accept from you any useful and appropriate patches you care
to offer.
I would say the same, for the first part.
Some of the things are you saying are misguided, but
understandable that you feel hurt.
We hope you change to drop the personal attacks.
I am sorry the situation got to this point.
We love you, and your projects as well, specially NSM.
Really, please take care.
Wish you all the best.
Filipe Coelho
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 10:49 AM Filipe Coelho
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 2021-01-03 17:56, Richard wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 15:40:17 +0100
> Fredrik Vestermark <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just wanted to reach out with a big thank you to
J. Liles for your
>> hard work on developing Non and publishing it under
an open source
>> license. Thank you to everybody else involved too,
of course!
>>
>> As a community, we often forget that developing and
maintaining free
>> software costs a lot of time and nerves. If you too
feel like a
>> GitHub star is not enough appreciation for Non,
please consider a
>> donation via PayPal to show some ♥ and support Liles
great work:
>> https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/Donations
>>
>> Best regards and a happy new year,
>> Fredrik
> Thank you Frederik for reminding me about the
"Donations" page.
> Thank you too to Aaron Duerksen for making such a
complete bug report
> on that segfault when removing a control. It has
annoyed me for ages,
> most recently yesterday, but I couldn't have done as
good a job as you
> in tracking down the issue.
> And of course, thank you Jonathan for providing us
with such a capable
> suite of programs for exploring the worlds of sound
processing and
> making music. I'm an amateur at both, but boy, what
fun it is. I look
> forward to the exciting developments and possible
improvements which
> you may have time to share with us in the near future.
+1
We all appreciate your efforts, even if there are
things we disagree with.
Thank you. And happy new year to everyone by the way.
