Filipe, I've merged this PR (although I don't really agree with the approach, it is simple enough that I don't mind the superfluous lines of code). I've also submitted an issue to Carla to remind you to fix the icon problem at its source. .
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 5:50 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: > So actions do speak louder than words. > > I wanted to submit back some changes, but am somehow blocked from > participating on the github project completely, so a PR fails. > > Would be nice to get along. > > I went ahead with an alternative account to submit the first change. > See it at https://github.com/original-male/non/pull/294 > > Should be pretty straight forward. > It adds a new icon size possible for the GUI icons, and sets resolution of > the GUI icon so that FLTK/NTK can take care to scale it nicely. > Before a few icons would appear incorrectly or not at all. > > Thanks > On 04/01/21 00:28, Filipe Coelho wrote: > > On 03/01/21 23:58, J. Liles wrote: > > Too much to respond to here. I really find your messages confusing > Fillipe, because again there's such a stark difference between your actions > and your words. > > I am sorry for that, I dont mean it. Looking at one-self is sometimes the > hardest. > > > I believe that part of the problem may be that you are reading some kind > of emotional/constitutional subtext into simple factual statements like "X > is out of the scope of this project and furthermore X can be implemented > easily as a separate client/script/whatever than there is therefore no need > for X to be incorporated into the project." To me, this is a factual > statement about technological realities, informed by Unix philosophy and > general logic. To you, it seems, this is being interpreted as "Male is mean > and hates me and refuses to listen to reason." > > If you call people names and insult them, that is enough for me to think > you are completely opposed to an idea. > I do not have access to the github tickets, so cant quote from them. But > here is from an email you sent last year: > > > You're cowards without the balls to contribute back to a project that > benefited you greatly. You should be ashamed of yourselves. With friends > like these, who needs enemies? Were you hoping that I died from the virus, > you fucking bastards? > > This is not a one-off thing, abuse was common-place everytime we suggested > anything you deemed a bit more exotic. > > > That is a synthetic example, but I'll take a real one from your message > below: > > Why would I make my application dependent on NSM? > I want my applications to be cross-platform, and work for everyone, > something you are against. > (At least it is what I understand from https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/FAQ, > forgive me if I am making the wrong assumption here) > > Here is the text you're referring to: > Why don't you provide OS X or Windows binaries? > > Unlike, ahem, some other DAW projects, the direction of Non is not driven > by financial interests. Time and money spent aquiring[sic] the special > hardware and software to develop on closed platforms would, in my humble > opinion, be better spent on actually developing Non. > > You interpreted this statement as "male is against software being cross > platform and working for everyone." This is of course completely false. The > reality is that male doesn't run Mac OS or Windows and it would literally > be insane for him to spend thousands of dollars of his own time and money > to acquire a Mac or Windows machine and develop ports for them. If someone > else runs Mac OS or Windows and wants to port my software there, test it, > and send me patches, I would be happy to apply them. But to insist that I > support platforms I do not myself use or have access to is to make an > unreasonable demand of me. Can you see the truth in what I'm saying? Is > this a cultural/language barrier thing? If I called you a meanie for not > porting Carla to the Amiga for me, would you feel I was being reasonable? > > Well, if you read what I wrote more clearly, you would see the context. > > You wrote: > > Until I see ... [your] GUI renamed to something else and made dependent > on NSM rather than attempting to supplant it > > I commented that this is not possible for Carla, because you do not have > interest for cross-platform but I do. > So I cannot make Carla dependent on NSM because of that. > > > But nevertheless, if you want to bury the hatchet and cooperate, I'm all > for it. If there are patches to make NSMD work on Windows or Mac (although > I can't see why it wouldn't already work) then send 'em on over. If there > are patches to document or improve the GUI API, send those too. If you have > suggestions for how NSM could be packaged in a way that distros would > accept in order that you could use it as a dependency, well I'm all ears > man! A little help would be very much welcome. > > I can go through the changes made in the new repo and submit PRs, but I am > lacking in time due to 15 of January being tagged as "release day" and > still having a few things not quite ready. > > Let's start with something small. Which I just tried, but pull request > fails. Did you block me? > > See > https://github.com/original-male/non/compare/master...falkTX:imported-fixes-pt1?expand=1 > and you can do the PR yourself. > > Is this a good first step? > > > But if you come at me with some kitchen sink/bloat stuff, don't be > surprised if I ask for some justification (i.e. "there is literally no > better way to do this than to add it to NSM"). That is not unreasonable. > That is not done out of ill-will. It is simply done out of a detached, > professional interest in maintaining quality and suitability. > > That is quite reasonable, and I am all for it. > > The main thing we keep asking is to stop the personal attacks and > occasional verbal abuse. > > > On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:25 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 03/01/21 22:34, J. Liles wrote: >> >> Fillipe, you keep saying this "we the community" stuff. Who elected you >> as the spokesperson for the community? That's part of your problem. You >> think you're the self appointed king/dictator of Linux audio. >> >> I am not speaking for the community, nor I am leading anything. I am >> rather bad at this. >> >> When I wrote in my mail here about the "we community" I speak about what >> I know of all the conversations on IRC, email and forum threads. >> So by community, I have to speak about the still sorta minority of >> developers that still care about standalones and session management. >> We all came into an agreement after seeing some of your reactions prior >> to the fork and reveal. >> >> I am just the one talking here because the others are all tired of all >> this drama, and just gave up trying to reason with you. >> >> >> Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is *you* who are difficult to >> deal with? >> >> Yes, I know this from experience that I can be very hard to work with. >> Tend to be perfectionist, and caring about all the little details, often >> too negative. >> Often caring about the little details more than the bigger ones. >> >> It is something I am trying to improve. >> >> Maybe for you, try to be less accusatory? >> >> >> There are many ways that *I* can think of that any reasonable, technical >> goals of yours, mine and anyone else's regarding NSM could be resolved. But >> please keep a little perspective here. >> >> Sure, and disagreement is expected. >> >> >> You were not smart enough to invent NSM, and yet you think you're smart >> enough to improve when the person who was smart enough to invent it >> disagrees with your "approach". >> >> You were smart to invest NSM and had time dedicate for it, I am grateful >> for that, thank you. >> >> Please be reasonable as well. >> I did not invest LASH, or LADISH, or JACK, or Qt, or many other things. I >> dont see how that is an argument for anything.. >> >> NSM as in protocol, does not really need change. jackpatch has a >> user-experience problem, but that might be unrelated to NSM itself. >> >> The things I would like to improve are in regards of user experience, the >> protocol can stay intact. >> But please understand, when you ignore or even attack back request to >> make the experience better for new users, how are we supposed to act? >> >> Nils went a step ahead and started his own GUI, yet you attack him by not >> having contributing nothing of value. >> So we are useless because we do not send patches for behaviour you >> clearly do not want (like an export option in the SM GUI), and yet if we go >> to do our thing while still respecting the NSM protocol we are still >> treated like shit. >> How does that many any sense?? >> >> (I would love to link to the issue/discussion in question here regarding >> export option, but you removed github tickets) >> >> >> I say your approach, but all you and your gang ever really came to me >> with were demands that I implement things I have no and see no use for. If >> you had a little skill in communication and a little humility and a less >> blatant desire to bring everything good and valuable in Linux audio under >> your anime umbrella, then you could have easily gotten anything reasonable >> that you wanted. Reasonable being the key word here. You can't go around >> demanding people work for free to implement your poorly thought out and >> unjustified whims. >> >> An export/import option is not unreasonable, in my opinion (and several >> others on the same github topic too). >> >> You do not have a use for it, okay. So what is so bad if someone else >> tries to do it? >> When we open an issue/ticket on github, it is not with the expectation >> that you do everything. >> Sometimes tickets are just places for discussion. >> >> Github tickets are not demands. >> >> >> You have publicly slandered me, you have called my software malware, etc. >> so don't pretend to be so innocent. >> >> I do not recall ever saying such things, but I apologize. I did not mean >> those things, and clearly do not think that. >> >> Why would I willingly be packaging and using malware myself? That doesnt >> make sense.. >> >> Again, I am sorry, I do not mean or meant to offend you in any way. Maybe >> some rushed comment when conversation got heated? >> In any case, I apologize for that. >> >> >> You call my remarks "weird", and yet you're the one who names all his >> programs after women (is that not "weird"?) >> >> Oh that haha. >> >> I guess it is just a little bias here. The reason for the C names is just >> a cheap idea copy of G*, K*, Q* names that other applications use. >> Me being 11=12 years younger when I gave those names thought it would be >> funny to have a suite of tools starting with C, because it seems similar to >> Q for the use of the Qt toolkit. >> >> I am not a native english speaker, coming up with good names is hard for >> me. >> So to remove bias, here are some other projects created by me that do not >> have such names. >> >> https://github.com/falkTX/Chibi (has C name, but not related to a >> girl/woman) >> https://github.com/falkTX/JackAss >> https://github.com/falkTX/Hylia >> https://github.com/falkTX/FluidPlug >> https://github.com/falkTX/nooice >> https://github.com/falkTX/los (fork of existing project, play-on-words >> alike libre/openoffice) >> https://github.com/DISTRHO/DPF >> https://github.com/DISTRHO/DISTRHO-Ports >> https://github.com/DISTRHO/DIE-Plugins >> https://github.com/DISTRHO/Kars >> https://github.com/DISTRHO/ProM >> >> So perhaps there are more projects made without the C woman than you >> realize. :) >> >> >> Again, you can say whatever lies you want, but the proof of the pudding >> is in the eating. >> >> Please tell me any more "lies" you see. I like to be transparent, I am >> trying to answer in truth to anything you might deem as a lie here. >> >> Other might see here it is actually the other way around. >> >> >> Until I see patches for NSM, documentation patches documenting the GUI >> API and your (python or whatever) GUI renamed to something else and made >> dependent on NSM rather than attempting to supplant it, then I and everyone >> else will know what the truth of the matter really is and just how empty >> your words are. >> >> Why would I make my application dependent on NSM? >> I want my applications to be cross-platform, and work for everyone, >> something you are against. >> (At least it is what I understand from https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/FAQ, >> forgive me if I am making the wrong assumption here) >> >> Carla does not intend to supplant anything, at maximum we could say >> making jack-rack obsolete. >> I do not see a need to change the name, but it is not totally out of the >> question. >> If you promise to be nicer back to me, I am willing to make that rename >> without a second though. Do you have any suggestions for a name? (and >> please be civil) >> >> Also, not sure why you ask me personally to submit patches, when you >> initially mentioned me as speaking for the "community". >> So shouldnt the community be the one submitting patches? >> >> There are a few things that Nils submitted, as seen in >> https://github.com/original-male/non/pulls?q=is%3Apr+author%3Adiovudau >> I did a few changes/fixes on the new-session-manager repo, as I felt >> welcome there and that I could actually make a change. >> See >> https://github.com/linuxaudio/new-session-manager/commits?author=falktx >> for the list, it is not much, but it is also not nothing. >> Should I submit these back to the NON repo? Will they be accepted them >> without me being shouted at? >> >> >> Should I just accept every dumb idea and half-assed patch without >> question? Is asking someone to explain themselves the action of a tyrant? >> Come on. >> >> You are fine to refuse any changes of course, but also please understand >> that if many changes get rejected, devs will start considering a fork as a >> necessity. >> >> >> You're just trying to capitalize on the fact that I don't show my boyish >> face on a github avatar or at LAC and can therefore be painted as inhuman. >> >> Who cares about the avatar? I do not like my own face, it is just there >> because I am too lazy now to change. >> I looks "boyish" I guess because it is just an old pic, I do not like to >> take pictures so those I have are usually old. >> >> You surely are human, your nickname is even original-male on github, dont >> know where that nonsense comes from. >> Dont hate yourself, or myself please. I am trying to be as peaceful and >> nice here as I can, to a point where I am really not sure what else to do. >> It is sad that I feel the need to write "please be civil" to every single >> comment that I know can provide a "gotcha" reply. >> >> Let's all be friendly please? >> >> >> The most disgusting thing about the whole affair is that you pretend to >> be friendly. I don't need friends like you, Fillipe. I'd rather surround >> myself with vipers. >> >> And I am sorry you feel that way. >> >> There are absolutely no hard feelings from my side, hope there is a way >> to make it that from your side too. >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 1:38 PM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 2021-01-03 20:21, J. Liles wrote: >>> >>> Actions speak louder than words, Fillipe. >>> >>> Well yes, I am totally with you on that. >>> >>> In acts of rage we do thinks that we later regret. 2020 has been a lousy >>> year for most people. >>> >>> >>> If you really had honor, skill, gratitude, and goodwill, then you would >>> contribute back to the project which you have benefited from, rather than >>> attempting to co-opt it in order to win the empty accolades of Linux Audio >>> Conference attendees and pad your resume with the accomplishments of others. >>> >>> I really do not appreciate the personal attacks, I thought we were past >>> this. >>> >>> But since you mention it, I can see where you come from with some of >>> these, but feel it is totally misguided. >>> I have not put any non-personal projects on my own CV, you can see it >>> for yourself at https://falktx.com/#cv >>> And you can even see the commit history for the CV >>> https://github.com/falkTX/falktx-web/commits/master/cv >>> >>> I did take over the JACK project a bit too early, while I was still too >>> deep with some life issues and between jobs, I feel guilty of that. >>> It took way too long from taking JACK to actually make a proper release, >>> and then come true to the promises to revive the win/mac situation. >>> I have purposefully reduced my working hours just to have some time to >>> dedicate per week to open-source projects. Now even at only 3 days per week. >>> >>> So forgive me if I feel a little bit personally attacked here. I never >>> called you names or said swear words to you. >>> >>> You know very well that we tried to have co-operation with you in the >>> NSM project. But all we got was friction, sometimes even verbal abuse. >>> Maybe that is just how you think it should be done, but most of the >>> community does not think the same way. >>> There was more than 1 developer that intentionally did not implement NSM >>> support because they saw how hard it was to get anything done and pushed >>> for in NSM. >>> >>> I tried to remain neutral all this time, promoting NSM all I could. >>> The KXStudio repositories had NSM stuff up to date as much as possible, >>> I implemented NSM in my own tools and promoted it as well within developers. >>> As an example, in the Sonoj 2019 talk about JACK, I publicly mention >>> that we need to push for NSM >>> >>> https://media.ccc.de/v/sonoj2019-1902-jack-past-present-future >>> >>> >>> The only reason you didn't change the name of NSM to a pandering sexy >>> feminine name is that you wanted to keep the acronym intact to maximize the >>> disruptive effect on me and my community of users and thwart efforts to get >>> NSM included in Debian. >>> >>> Ignoring the weird remarks about sexism.. it is obvious why the NSM name >>> was kept. >>> Because we, in the community, truly believe in NSM to be a good spec and >>> the way to go forward in regards to session management. >>> >>> We want to push it forward and see it used a lot more, there were just >>> too many issues when dealing with its maintainer, of course you. >>> Make no mistake, one of the big reasons NON/NSM is not in Debian/Ubuntu >>> is because of your actions and how you behave(d). >>> >>> I do not mean this as any kind of personal attack, just wish you would >>> be able to see this really. >>> >>> It is because we, the community, really like NSM and believe in it, that >>> we went with a fork, as the last resort. >>> We really appreciate all the work you put on it, and for the rest of the >>> NON suite too. >>> But as a maintainer, you were jeopardizing the project with your >>> behaviour. >>> >>> Nils has some relevant things he said not a long while ago, see >>> https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21772&p=121745#p121745 >>> >>> >>> People can change though, so if you ever decide to give up this campaign >>> of deceit and disruption, then I'll happily accept from you any useful and >>> appropriate patches you care to offer. >>> >>> I would say the same, for the first part. >>> >>> Some of the things are you saying are misguided, but understandable that >>> you feel hurt. >>> We hope you change to drop the personal attacks. >>> >>> I am sorry the situation got to this point. >>> >>> We love you, and your projects as well, specially NSM. >>> Really, please take care. >>> >>> Wish you all the best. >>> >>> Filipe Coelho >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 10:49 AM Filipe Coelho <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2021-01-03 17:56, Richard wrote: >>>> > On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 15:40:17 +0100 >>>> > Fredrik Vestermark <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Hi, >>>> >> >>>> >> I just wanted to reach out with a big thank you to J. Liles for your >>>> >> hard work on developing Non and publishing it under an open source >>>> >> license. Thank you to everybody else involved too, of course! >>>> >> >>>> >> As a community, we often forget that developing and maintaining free >>>> >> software costs a lot of time and nerves. If you too feel like a >>>> >> GitHub star is not enough appreciation for Non, please consider a >>>> >> donation via PayPal to show some ♥ and support Liles great work: >>>> >> https://non.tuxfamily.org/wiki/Donations >>>> >> >>>> >> Best regards and a happy new year, >>>> >> Fredrik >>>> > Thank you Frederik for reminding me about the "Donations" page. >>>> > Thank you too to Aaron Duerksen for making such a complete bug report >>>> > on that segfault when removing a control. It has annoyed me for ages, >>>> > most recently yesterday, but I couldn't have done as good a job as you >>>> > in tracking down the issue. >>>> > And of course, thank you Jonathan for providing us with such a capable >>>> > suite of programs for exploring the worlds of sound processing and >>>> > making music. I'm an amateur at both, but boy, what fun it is. I look >>>> > forward to the exciting developments and possible improvements which >>>> > you may have time to share with us in the near future. >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>> We all appreciate your efforts, even if there are things we disagree >>>> with. >>>> >>>> Thank you. And happy new year to everyone by the way. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
