James This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my clients don't read this)
1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they don't have the ability to work for an outsource provider 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced with "No one got fired for buying Microsoft" Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, but what amazes me is M$ by there own admission didn't have a half decent dev system (which is the motivation behind C#) and they still dominate and secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears thatr corporates have swallowed hook line there .NET spin, We didn't require .NET to get platform portability across M$ platforms we needed M$ to put more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a pseudo JVM killer which can be bent to there own desires and 'we' are buying in not saying piss off Neven ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > You probably will (flame). > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more decision > makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ platform developed in > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for several TLAs > who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the development > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have little or > no understanding of the software industry and perceive that if the most > common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the crappy software and > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... ofcourse. > No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of software quality ... > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least fixable. > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider openoffice, linux > based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything based upon > opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; aided in no small > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about relative quality > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly tools are > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you demonstate in > your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose obvious > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as part of your > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$. > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the ability > to critically appraise situations and advise their clients objectively. I > would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ language/ company was not > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits in each > tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than other aspects of > the problem and solution domains. > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > Guys > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v 'Delphi' > Programmer is indicative > of the malaise that is infecting this industry. You wouldn't hire a plumber > based on wether > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds for > Programmers with > C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a wanting a person a narrow > field > of vision and they get one. > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > certification as a 'Qualification', > MSCE is not a qualification it is a product knowledge test. This is starting > to invade academic institutions in > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific training > schools, You don't study 'Relational > Database Theory' you are more likely to do Oracle 101. Having programmed in > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, Interbase, > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE > It would be interesting to note I wouldn't make the short list for a C# Job > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having been > screwed by M$ and bitching and > moaning to this effect have seen Microsoft launch another thinly disguised > plot for world domination and their response.... > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put your money > where your mouth was > > Neven > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. The only > > thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as to add them > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they insist on > > commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking every > > opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work anyway. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Dave Jollie > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > *: 09 306 6801 > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as well, since > > you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and > foremost, > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my CV/resume with > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range of > languages > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, and maybe > > Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the class libraries > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to decide on > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the remuneration. > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things like > Design > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that knowledge of > a > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Conor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open Road > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the market than > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy there are > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I don't see > any > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the .Net access > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - Swing, > > servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't have relevant > > experience. > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching language of > choice > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > institutions > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer about $45K > and > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I suspect > that > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi software > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that seems to > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I am > biased. > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C# and the > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception (by those > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better programmers > and > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get paid more > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do essentially the > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in the > bank. > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market place? How do > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it pay better > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would hope so. > > I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely used in NZ > and > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct perception - > are > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and vb.net? > Is > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in something > used > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less people > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Dave Jollie > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > J: 09 306 6801 > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > This communication contains information that is confidential and the > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please delete > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 9205441 > > immediately. If you are the intended recipient of this communication you > > should not copy, disclose or distribute this communication without the > > authority of enSynergy Limited. > > > > Any views expressed in this Communication are those of the individual > > sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views > of > > enSynergy Limited. > > > > Except as required by law, enSynergy Limited does not represent, warrant > > and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been > > maintained nor that the communication is free of errors, virus, > interception > > or interference. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" > Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/ > Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This electronic mail > message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is > privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient you are > advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of > the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this document in error, please notify the sender immediately and > destroy the message. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
