J Sorry
OK it was a little tongue in cheek, but I was realy getting at IT 'experts' who hop from company to company, building little empires where no-one challenges them because they know 10% more than the rest N ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Coulter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > Ok, Neven, I work in our "Internal" I department, yet I HAV worked for > an outsource provide. So I take acception to your first > "Law"...obviously I don't take it "Personally", its just that I get just > the same $$ if not a bit more, by working in an "internal" It dept. Plus > the works more regular, and no short term contracts. > If I was still single and had no kids to feed, I would still be > there....or should I ammend that to read, if TradeMe had not been > started and I needed reqular $$ to feed my buying off trademe habit, I > would still be there...hahaha > > Jeremy > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan > Sent: Friday, 27 June 2003 08:22 > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > James > > This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my clients > don't read this) > > 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they > don't have the ability to work for an outsource provider > > 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced with > "No one got fired for buying Microsoft" > > Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, but > what amazes me is M$ by there own admission didn't have a half decent > dev system (which is the motivation behind C#) and they still dominate > and secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears > thatr corporates have swallowed hook line there .NET spin, We didn't > require .NET to get platform portability across M$ platforms we needed > M$ to put more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a > pseudo JVM killer which can be bent to there own desires and 'we' are > buying in not saying piss off > > Neven > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > You probably will (flame). > > > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more > > decision makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ > > platform developed > in > > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for several > > TLAs who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the > development > > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have > > little or no understanding of the software industry and perceive that > > if the most common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the > > crappy software > and > > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... > > ofcourse. No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of > > software quality > ... > > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least > > fixable. > > > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider openoffice, > > linux based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything > > based upon opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; > > aided in no > small > > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about relative > quality > > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly > > tools > are > > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you demonstate > > in your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose obvious > > > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as part > > of > your > > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$. > > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the > > ability to critically appraise situations and advise their clients > > objectively. I would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ > > language/ company was > not > > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits in > > each tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than other > > > aspects > of > > the problem and solution domains. > > > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > Guys > > > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v 'Delphi' > > Programmer is indicative of the malaise that is infecting this > > industry. You wouldn't hire a > plumber > > based on wether > > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds for > > Programmers with C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a > > wanting a person a > narrow > > field > > of vision and they get one. > > > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > > certification as a 'Qualification', MSCE is not a qualification it is > > a product knowledge test. This is > starting > > to invade academic institutions in > > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific training > > schools, You don't study 'Relational Database Theory' you are more > > likely to do Oracle 101. Having programmed > in > > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, Interbase, > > > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE It would be interesting to note I > > wouldn't make the short list for a C# > Job > > > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having > > been screwed by M$ and bitching and moaning to this effect have seen > > Microsoft launch another thinly > disguised > > plot for world domination and their response.... > > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put your > money > > where your mouth was > > > > Neven > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. The > > > only thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as > > > to add > them > > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they insist > > > > on commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking > > > every opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work > > > anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > *: 09 306 6801 > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as well, > > > since you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and > > foremost, > > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my > > > CV/resume > with > > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range of > > languages > > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, and > > > maybe Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the > > > class > libraries > > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to > > > decide > on > > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the > > > remuneration. > > > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things > > > like > > Design > > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that > > > knowledge > of > > a > > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Conor > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > > there? > > > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open Road > > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the market > than > > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy > > > there > are > > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I don't > > > see > > any > > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the .Net > access > > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - > > > Swing, servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't > > > have > relevant > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching language > > > of > > choice > > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > > institutions > > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer about > > > $45K > > and > > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I > > > suspect > > that > > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi > software > > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that > > > seems > to > > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I am > > biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C# > > > and > the > > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception (by > > > those > > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better > programmers > > and > > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get > > > paid > more > > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do > > > essentially > the > > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in > > > the > > bank. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market place? > > > How > do > > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it pay > better > > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would hope > > > > so. I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely > > > used in NZ > > and > > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct > > > perception - > > are > > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and > > > vb.net? > > Is > > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in > > > something > > used > > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less people > > > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > J: 09 306 6801 > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > This communication contains information that is confidential and the > > > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please > delete > > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 > > > 9205441 immediately. 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