Sorry for over-quoting, but I think I must jump in and have a little rant of my own and use all of the previous posts as context...so I'm going to leave them there.
I don't have much of an idea of how saleable my skills are as a Delphi programmer, and I don't really care. I know that I have a reputation for delivering software (that works) to MY CUSTOMERS on time, within budget, and often with extra functionality that was not requested in the original spec...but has since been shown to be advantageous in the product that that my customers use. I don't have very many customers, but those I have typically have an IT department that is very respectful of what a Delphi developer can spit out. My colleagues and I will frequently express a CAN-DO attitude that other developers that write code for the same systems (but in other languages) cannot match. The customers (board room people) then end up with an impression of Delphi projects succeeding while other projects sometimes fail. Most of what we do exists in a heterogenous hardware/software/OS environment. Some of the files that we have to read and write are coded using EBCDIC. We have to handle tremendous data volumes. The software changes frequently and has to handle change management. Any computer language could probably do what we do, and there will be many pros and cons of what any particular design/development environment/methodology has to offer. There's a big BUT. The big but is that my customers are biased towards getting Delphi programs to do stuff. They are confidernt that the Delphi program will work, and it will be cheap to develop.This comes from a history of delivery and success. We get a lot of respect from our customers simply because we use Delphi as a development tool. So, there are a few NZ firms that think that if you write code in Delphi, it is going to work, it is probably going to easier to modify, and it is probably going to be able to address virtually any weird requirement that you can throw at it. Although I am probably guilty of embellishing the truth from time to time (of course we can make it run on Linux....of course we can make it run on .NET), the general perception is that the Delphi parts of the system can do whatever is required. If the customers like it, then what better perception could you ask for? Scout P.S., please don't screw up the customer perception by writing crap code. Of course you wouldn't, would you? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > James > > This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my clients don't > read this) > > 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they don't > have the ability > to work for an outsource provider > > 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced with "No > one got fired for buying Microsoft" > > Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, but what > amazes me is M$ by there own > admission didn't have a half decent dev system (which is the motivation > behind C#) and they still dominate and > secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears thatr > corporates have swallowed hook line > there .NET spin, We didn't require .NET to get platform portability across > M$ platforms we needed M$ to put > more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a pseudo JVM > killer which can be bent to there own > desires and 'we' are buying in not saying piss off > > Neven > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > You probably will (flame). > > > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more decision > > makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ platform developed > in > > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for several TLAs > > who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the > development > > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have little or > > no understanding of the software industry and perceive that if the most > > common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the crappy software > and > > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... ofcourse. > > No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of software quality > ... > > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least fixable. > > > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider openoffice, linux > > based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything based upon > > opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; aided in no > small > > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about relative > quality > > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly tools > are > > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you demonstate in > > your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose obvious > > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as part of > your > > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$. > > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the ability > > to critically appraise situations and advise their clients objectively. I > > would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ language/ company was > not > > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits in each > > tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than other aspects > of > > the problem and solution domains. > > > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > Guys > > > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v 'Delphi' > > Programmer is indicative > > of the malaise that is infecting this industry. You wouldn't hire a > plumber > > based on wether > > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds for > > Programmers with > > C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a wanting a person a > narrow > > field > > of vision and they get one. > > > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > > certification as a 'Qualification', > > MSCE is not a qualification it is a product knowledge test. This is > starting > > to invade academic institutions in > > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific training > > schools, You don't study 'Relational > > Database Theory' you are more likely to do Oracle 101. Having programmed > in > > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, Interbase, > > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE > > It would be interesting to note I wouldn't make the short list for a C# > Job > > > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having been > > screwed by M$ and bitching and > > moaning to this effect have seen Microsoft launch another thinly > disguised > > plot for world domination and their response.... > > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put your > money > > where your mouth was > > > > Neven > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. The only > > > thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as to add > them > > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they insist on > > > commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking every > > > opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > *: 09 306 6801 > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as well, since > > > you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and > > foremost, > > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my CV/resume > with > > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range of > > languages > > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, and maybe > > > Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the class > libraries > > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to decide > on > > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the remuneration. > > > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things like > > Design > > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that knowledge > of > > a > > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Conor > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open Road > > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the market > than > > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy there > are > > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I don't see > > any > > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the .Net > access > > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - Swing, > > > servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't have > relevant > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching language of > > choice > > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > > institutions > > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer about $45K > > and > > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I suspect > > that > > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi > software > > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that seems > to > > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I am > > biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C# and > the > > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception (by those > > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better programmers > > and > > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get paid > more > > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do essentially > the > > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in the > > bank. > > > > > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market place? How > do > > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it pay > better > > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would hope so. > > > I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely used in NZ > > and > > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct perception - > > are > > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and vb.net? > > Is > > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in something > > used > > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less people > > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > J: 09 306 6801 > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > This communication contains information that is confidential and the > > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please > delete > > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 9205441 > > > immediately. 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