Sorry Neven, I deleted the email before I got a chance to reply...of my
web mail that is.
But yes, I agree totally with your explination.
Jeremy
-----Original Message-----
From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:13:18 +1200
Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there?
> J
>
> try
> PostMessage
> except
> Apologise('J')
> end
>
> N
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeremy Coulter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:45 PM
> Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> there?
>
>
> > Ok, Neven, I work in our "Internal" I department, yet I HAV worked
> for
> > an outsource provide. So I take acception to your first
> > "Law"...obviously I don't take it "Personally", its just that I get
> just
> > the same $$ if not a bit more, by working in an "internal" It dept.
> Plus
> > the works more regular, and no short term contracts.
> > If I was still single and had no kids to feed, I would still be
> > there....or should I ammend that to read, if TradeMe had not been
> > started and I needed reqular $$ to feed my buying off trademe habit,
> I
> > would still be there...hahaha
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan
> > Sent: Friday, 27 June 2003 08:22
> > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic
> > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> there?
> >
> >
> > James
> >
> > This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my clients
> > don't read this)
> >
> > 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they
> > don't have the ability to work for an outsource provider
> >
> > 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced
> with
> > "No one got fired for buying Microsoft"
> >
> > Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product,
> but
> > what amazes me is M$ by there own admission didn't have a half decent
> > dev system (which is the motivation behind C#) and they still
> dominate
> > and secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears
> > thatr corporates have swallowed hook line there .NET spin, We didn't
> > require .NET to get platform portability across M$ platforms we
> needed
> > M$ to put more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a
> > pseudo JVM killer which can be bent to there own desires and 'we' are
> > buying in not saying piss off
> >
> > Neven
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM
> > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> there?
> >
> >
> > > You probably will (flame).
> > >
> > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more
> > > decision makers (those purchasing software) see the language/
> > > platform developed
> > in
> > > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for
> several
> > > TLAs who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as
> the
> > development
> > > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have
> > > little or no understanding of the software industry and perceive
> that
> > > if the most common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up
> the
> > > crappy software
> > and
> > > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ...
> > > ofcourse. No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of
> > > software quality
> > ...
> > > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least
> > > fixable.
> > >
> > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider openoffice,
> > > linux based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or
> anything
> > > based upon opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception
> thing;
> > > aided in no
> > small
> > > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about
> relative
> > quality
> > > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly
> > > tools
> > are
> > > "better" and the comfort zone of many people.
> > >
> > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you
> demonstate
> > > in your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose
> obvious
> >
> > > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as
> part
> > > of
> > your
> > > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$.
> > > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the
> > > ability to critically appraise situations and advise their clients
> > > objectively. I would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/
> > > language/ company was
> > not
> > > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits
> in
> > > each tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than
> other
> >
> > > aspects
> > of
> > > the problem and solution domains.
> > >
> > > Just had to get that off my chest ....
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m.
> > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic
> > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> > > there?
> > >
> > >
> > > Guys
> > >
> > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v
> 'Delphi'
> > > Programmer is indicative of the malaise that is infecting this
> > > industry. You wouldn't hire a
> > plumber
> > > based on wether
> > > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds
> for
> > > Programmers with C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a
> > > wanting a person a
> > narrow
> > > field
> > > of vision and they get one.
> > >
> > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product
> > > certification as a 'Qualification', MSCE is not a qualification it
> is
> > > a product knowledge test. This is
> > starting
> > > to invade academic institutions in
> > > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific
> training
> > > schools, You don't study 'Relational Database Theory' you are more
> > > likely to do Oracle 101. Having programmed
> > in
> > > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++,
> > > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL,
> Interbase,
> >
> > > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE It would be interesting to note I
> > > wouldn't make the short list for a C#
> > Job
> > >
> > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having
> > > been screwed by M$ and bitching and moaning to this effect have
> seen
> > > Microsoft launch another thinly
> > disguised
> > > plot for world domination and their response....
> > > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put
> your
> > money
> > > where your mouth was
> > >
> > > Neven
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> > there?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense.
> The
> > > > only thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so
> as
> > > > to add
> > them
> > > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they
> insist
> >
> > > > on commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of
> taking
> > > > every opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I
> work
> > > > anyway.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the feedback guys.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Dave Jollie
> > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT
> > > >
> > > > *: 09 368 4259
> > > > *: 09 306 6801
> > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM
> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic
> > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> > > > there?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as
> well,
> > > > since you've got to sell yourself for any potential job?
> > > >
> > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and
> > > foremost,
> > > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my
> > > > CV/resume
> > with
> > > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range
> of
> > > languages
> > > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#,
> and
> > > > maybe Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the
> > > > class
> > libraries
> > > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to
> > > > decide
> > on
> > > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the
> > > > remuneration.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things
> > > > like
> > > Design
> > > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that
> > > > knowledge
> > of
> > > a
> > > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Conor
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m.
> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic
> > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> > > > there?
> > > >
> > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open
> Road
> > > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the
> market
> > than
> > > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy
> > > > there
> > are
> > > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I
> don't
> > > > see
> > > any
> > > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the
> .Net
> > access
> > > > and good training resources.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets -
> > > > Swing, servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates
> don't
> > > > have
> > relevant
> > > > experience.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching
> language
> > > > of
> > > choice
> > > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few
> > > institutions
> > > > still teach in C++.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer
> about
> > > > $45K
> > > and
> > > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I
> > > > suspect
> > > that
> > > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi
> > software
> > > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that
> > > > seems
> > to
> > > > be coming from Europe and the US.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I
> am
> > > biased.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Stephen
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m.
> > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic
> > > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out
> there?
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C#
> > > > and
> > the
> > > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception
> (by
> > > > those
> > > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better
> > programmers
> > > and
> > > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get
> > > > paid
> > more
> > > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do
> > > > essentially
> > the
> > > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in
> > > > the
> > > bank.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market
> place?
> > > > How
> > do
> > > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it
> pay
> > better
> > > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would
> hope
> >
> > > > so. I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely
> > > > used in NZ
> > > and
> > > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct
> > > > perception -
> > > are
> > > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and
> > > > vb.net?
> > > Is
> > > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in
> > > > something
> > > used
> > > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less
> people
> >
> > > > competing for the work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Dave Jollie
> > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT
> > > >
> > > > *: 09 368 4259
> > > > J: 09 306 6801
> > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~
> > ~~~~
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > This communication contains information that is confidential and
> the
> >
> > > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party.
> > > >
> > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication
> please
> > delete
> > > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9
> > > > 9205441 immediately. If you are the intended recipient of this
> > > > communication you should not copy, disclose or distribute this
> > > > communication without the authority of enSynergy Limited.
> > > >
> > > > Any views expressed in this Communication are those of the
> > > > individual sender, except where the sender specifically states
> them
> > > > to be the views
> > > of
> > > > enSynergy Limited.
> > > >
> > > > Except as required by law, enSynergy Limited does not represent,
> > > > warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication
> > > > has been maintained nor that the communication is free of errors,
> > > > virus,
> > > interception
> > > > or interference.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > -
> > > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List -
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
> > > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic"
> > > Web Archive at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
> > > Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This
> electronic
> > > mail message and any accompanying attachments may contain
> information
> > > that is privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended
> > > recipient you
> > are
> > > advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or
> > > reproduction
> > of
> > > the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you
> > > have received this document in error, please notify the sender
> > > immediately and destroy the message.
> > >
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > ---
> > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List -
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
> > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic"
> > Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
> >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> -
> > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
> > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic"
> > Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
> >
> >
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
> To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with body of "unsubscribe offtopic"
> Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz
To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with body of "unsubscribe offtopic"
Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
