It amazes me that Commodores outsell Falcons too, but what can I say the world is full of idiots who listen to marketing over fact.
Just be glad we are the informed minority, and push Delphi's cause as often as possible. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2003 9:11 am To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? Trevor The only thing to add is that in a world dominated by Microsoft the fact that Delphi exists is testament to how good it is. But it amazes me that we are outnumbered 3 to 1 by VB Programmers Neven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > Sorry for over-quoting, but I think I must jump in and have a little rant of > my own and use all of the previous posts as context...so I'm going to leave > them there. > > I don't have much of an idea of how saleable my skills are as a Delphi > programmer, and I don't really care. I know that I have a reputation for > delivering software (that works) to MY CUSTOMERS on time, within budget, and > often with extra functionality that was not requested in the original > spec...but has since been shown to be advantageous in the product that that > my customers use. > > I don't have very many customers, but those I have typically have an IT > department that is very respectful of what a Delphi developer can spit out. > > My colleagues and I will frequently express a CAN-DO attitude that other > developers that write code for the same systems (but in other languages) > cannot match. > > The customers (board room people) then end up with an impression of Delphi > projects succeeding while other projects sometimes fail. > > Most of what we do exists in a heterogenous hardware/software/OS > environment. Some of the files that we have to read and write are coded > using EBCDIC. We have to handle tremendous data volumes. The software > changes frequently and has to handle change management. > > Any computer language could probably do what we do, and there will be many > pros and cons of what any particular design/development > environment/methodology has to offer. > > There's a big BUT. > > The big but is that my customers are biased towards getting Delphi programs > to do stuff. They are confidernt that the Delphi program will work, and it > will be cheap to develop.This comes from a history of delivery and success. > We get a lot of respect from our customers simply because we use Delphi as a > development tool. > > So, there are a few NZ firms that think that if you write code in Delphi, it > is going to work, it is probably going to easier to modify, and it is > probably going to be able to address virtually any weird requirement that > you can throw at it. Although I am probably guilty of embellishing the > truth from time to time (of course we can make it run on Linux....of course > we can make it run on .NET), the general perception is that the Delphi parts > of the system can do whatever is required. > > If the customers like it, then what better perception could you ask for? > > Scout > > P.S., please don't screw up the customer perception by writing crap code. > Of course you wouldn't, would you? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:21 AM > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > James > > > > This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my clients > don't > > read this) > > > > 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they don't > > have the ability > > to work for an outsource provider > > > > 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced with > "No > > one got fired for buying Microsoft" > > > > Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, but > what > > amazes me is M$ by there own > > admission didn't have a half decent dev system (which is the motivation > > behind C#) and they still dominate and > > secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears thatr > > corporates have swallowed hook line > > there .NET spin, We didn't require .NET to get platform portability across > > M$ platforms we needed M$ to put > > more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a pseudo JVM > > killer which can be bent to there own > > desires and 'we' are buying in not saying piss off > > > > Neven > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > You probably will (flame). > > > > > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more > decision > > > makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ platform developed > > in > > > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for several > TLAs > > > who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the > > development > > > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have little > or > > > no understanding of the software industry and perceive that if the most > > > common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the crappy software > > and > > > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... > ofcourse. > > > No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of software quality > > ... > > > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least fixable. > > > > > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider openoffice, > linux > > > based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything based > upon > > > opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; aided in no > > small > > > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about relative > > quality > > > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly tools > > are > > > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > > > > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you demonstate in > > > your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose obvious > > > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as part of > > your > > > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$. > > > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the > ability > > > to critically appraise situations and advise their clients objectively. > I > > > would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ language/ company was > > not > > > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits in > each > > > tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than other > aspects > > of > > > the problem and solution domains. > > > > > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > > > Guys > > > > > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v 'Delphi' > > > Programmer is indicative > > > of the malaise that is infecting this industry. You wouldn't hire a > > plumber > > > based on wether > > > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds for > > > Programmers with > > > C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a wanting a person a > > narrow > > > field > > > of vision and they get one. > > > > > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > > > certification as a 'Qualification', > > > MSCE is not a qualification it is a product knowledge test. This is > > starting > > > to invade academic institutions in > > > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific training > > > schools, You don't study 'Relational > > > Database Theory' you are more likely to do Oracle 101. Having programmed > > in > > > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > > > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, Interbase, > > > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE > > > It would be interesting to note I wouldn't make the short list for a C# > > Job > > > > > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having been > > > screwed by M$ and bitching and > > > moaning to this effect have seen Microsoft launch another thinly > > disguised > > > plot for world domination and their response.... > > > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put your > > money > > > where your mouth was > > > > > > Neven > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. The > only > > > > thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as to add > > them > > > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they insist > on > > > > commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking every > > > > opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > > *: 09 306 6801 > > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as well, > since > > > > you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and > > > foremost, > > > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my CV/resume > > with > > > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range of > > > languages > > > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, and > maybe > > > > Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the class > > libraries > > > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to > decide > > on > > > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the remuneration. > > > > > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things like > > > Design > > > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that knowledge > > of > > > a > > > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Conor > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > > > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open Road > > > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the market > > than > > > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy there > > are > > > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I don't > see > > > any > > > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the .Net > > access > > > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - Swing, > > > > servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't have > > relevant > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching language of > > > choice > > > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > > > institutions > > > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer about > $45K > > > and > > > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I > suspect > > > that > > > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi > > software > > > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that > seems > > to > > > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I am > > > biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C# and > > the > > > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception (by > those > > > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better > programmers > > > and > > > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get paid > > more > > > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do essentially > > the > > > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in the > > > bank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market place? > How > > do > > > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it pay > > better > > > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would hope > so. > > > > I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely used in > NZ > > > and > > > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct > perception - > > > are > > > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and > vb.net? > > > Is > > > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in > something > > > used > > > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less people > > > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > > J: 09 306 6801 > > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > This communication contains information that is confidential and the > > > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please > > delete > > > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 > 9205441 > > > > immediately. If you are the intended recipient of this communication > you > > > > should not copy, disclose or distribute this communication without the > > > > authority of enSynergy Limited. > > > > > > > > Any views expressed in this Communication are those of the individual > > > > sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the > views > > > of > > > > enSynergy Limited. > > > > > > > > Except as required by law, enSynergy Limited does not represent, > warrant > > > > and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been > > > > maintained nor that the communication is free of errors, virus, > > > interception > > > > or interference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > > - > > > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz > > > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" > > > Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/ > > > Notice of Legal Status and Confidential Information: This electronic > mail > > > message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is > > > privileged and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient you > > are > > > advised that any use, review, dissemination, distribution or > reproduction > > of > > > the information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > > > received this document in error, please notify the sender immediately > and > > > destroy the message. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > - > > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz > > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" > > Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/ > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- - > New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz > To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" > Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 5/06/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 5/06/2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Zealand Delphi Users group - Offtopic List - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.delphi.org.nz To UnSub, send email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body of "unsubscribe offtopic" Web Archive at: http://www.mail-archive.com/offtopic%40delphi.org.nz/
