Ok, Neven, I work in our "Internal" I department, yet I HAV worked for an outsource provide. So I take acception to your first "Law"...obviously I don't take it "Personally", its just that I get just the same $$ if not a bit more, by working in an "internal" It dept. Plus the works more regular, and no short term contracts. If I was still single and had no kids to feed, I would still be there....or should I ammend that to read, if TradeMe had not been started and I needed reqular $$ to feed my buying off trademe habit, I would still be there...hahaha
Jeremy -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan Sent: Friday, 27 June 2003 08:22 To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? James This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my clients don't read this) 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they don't have the ability to work for an outsource provider 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced with "No one got fired for buying Microsoft" Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, but what amazes me is M$ by there own admission didn't have a half decent dev system (which is the motivation behind C#) and they still dominate and secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears thatr corporates have swallowed hook line there .NET spin, We didn't require .NET to get platform portability across M$ platforms we needed M$ to put more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a pseudo JVM killer which can be bent to there own desires and 'we' are buying in not saying piss off Neven ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > You probably will (flame). > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more > decision makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ > platform developed in > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for several > TLAs who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the development > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have > little or no understanding of the software industry and perceive that > if the most common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the > crappy software and > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... > ofcourse. No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of > software quality ... > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least > fixable. > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider openoffice, > linux based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything > based upon opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; > aided in no small > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about relative quality > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly > tools are > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you demonstate > in your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose obvious > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as part > of your > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$. > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the > ability to critically appraise situations and advise their clients > objectively. I would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ > language/ company was not > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits in > each tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than other > aspects of > the problem and solution domains. > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > Guys > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v 'Delphi' > Programmer is indicative of the malaise that is infecting this > industry. You wouldn't hire a plumber > based on wether > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds for > Programmers with C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a > wanting a person a narrow > field > of vision and they get one. > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > certification as a 'Qualification', MSCE is not a qualification it is > a product knowledge test. This is starting > to invade academic institutions in > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific training > schools, You don't study 'Relational Database Theory' you are more > likely to do Oracle 101. Having programmed in > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, Interbase, > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE It would be interesting to note I > wouldn't make the short list for a C# Job > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having > been screwed by M$ and bitching and moaning to this effect have seen > Microsoft launch another thinly disguised > plot for world domination and their response.... > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put your money > where your mouth was > > Neven > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. The > > only thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as > > to add them > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they insist > > on commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking > > every opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work > > anyway. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Dave Jollie > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > *: 09 306 6801 > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as well, > > since you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and > foremost, > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my > > CV/resume with > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range of > languages > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, and > > maybe Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the > > class libraries > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to > > decide on > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the > > remuneration. > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things > > like > Design > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that > > knowledge of > a > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Conor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open Road > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the market than > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy > > there are > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I don't > > see > any > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the .Net access > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - > > Swing, servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't > > have relevant > > experience. > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching language > > of > choice > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > institutions > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer about > > $45K > and > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I > > suspect > that > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi software > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that > > seems to > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I am > biased. > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C# > > and the > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception (by > > those > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better programmers > and > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get > > paid more > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do > > essentially the > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in > > the > bank. > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market place? > > How do > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it pay better > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would hope > > so. I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely > > used in NZ > and > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct > > perception - > are > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and > > vb.net? > Is > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in > > something > used > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less people > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Dave Jollie > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > J: 09 306 6801 > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > This communication contains information that is confidential and the > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please delete > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 > > 9205441 immediately. 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