Quite a good analogy really. It's quite possible for two houses to look similar and perform roughly the same job but to be very different in terms of quality. Particularly if one is built on poor/non existant foundations and is likely to slide down the hill the first time there's a little rain...
David. > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Paul Mckenzie > Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2003 10:27 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > Unfortunately there are management that think - "it looks like a house, > therefore it should work". > Dare I mention all the leaky homes... > > Regards > Paul McKenzie > Analyst Programmer > SMSS Ltd. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Sugrue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:12 AM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Indeed. I liken it to Draftsperson vs Architects. A Draftsperson can > > draw a house, an Architect can design a house. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Behalf Of Phil Middlemiss > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2003 10:03 am > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Someone once said "VB makes the easy things easier, Delphi makes the > > hard > > things easier". I wonder how many of the VB "Programmers" are competent > > software designers, and how many are just playing "plug the pieces > > together"... > > > > While it's true that you can do both with Delphi, I get the impression > > from > > the Delphi community that, generally, Delphi is used as a more "serious" > > tool by more informed developers. I think that Delphi is *perceived* as > > more > > of a professional tool, and that VB is perceived as being easier for the > > newbie programmer. This is, of course, the perception that I think the > > developers have, not the management. > > > > Phil. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Sugrue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:33 AM > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > It amazes me that Commodores outsell Falcons too, but what can I say > > the > > > world is full of idiots who listen to marketing over fact. > > > > > > Just be glad we are the informed minority, and push Delphi's cause as > > > often as possible. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan > > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2003 9:11 am > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > Trevor > > > > > > The only thing to add is that in a world dominated by Microsoft > > > the fact that Delphi exists is testament to how good it is. > > > > > > But it amazes me that we are outnumbered 3 to 1 by VB Programmers > > > > > > Neven > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Trevor Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:46 PM > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > > > Sorry for over-quoting, but I think I must jump in and have a little > > > rant > > > of > > > > my own and use all of the previous posts as context...so I'm going > > to > > > leave > > > > them there. > > > > > > > > I don't have much of an idea of how saleable my skills are as a > > Delphi > > > > programmer, and I don't really care. I know that I have a > > reputation > > > for > > > > delivering software (that works) to MY CUSTOMERS on time, within > > > budget, > > > and > > > > often with extra functionality that was not requested in the > > original > > > > spec...but has since been shown to be advantageous in the product > > that > > > that > > > > my customers use. > > > > > > > > I don't have very many customers, but those I have typically have an > > > IT > > > > department that is very respectful of what a Delphi developer can > > spit > > > out. > > > > > > > > My colleagues and I will frequently express a CAN-DO attitude that > > > other > > > > developers that write code for the same systems (but in other > > > languages) > > > > cannot match. > > > > > > > > The customers (board room people) then end up with an impression of > > > Delphi > > > > projects succeeding while other projects sometimes fail. > > > > > > > > Most of what we do exists in a heterogenous hardware/software/OS > > > > environment. Some of the files that we have to read and write are > > > coded > > > > using EBCDIC. We have to handle tremendous data volumes. The > > > software > > > > changes frequently and has to handle change management. > > > > > > > > Any computer language could probably do what we do, and there will > > be > > > many > > > > pros and cons of what any particular design/development > > > > environment/methodology has to offer. > > > > > > > > There's a big BUT. > > > > > > > > The big but is that my customers are biased towards getting Delphi > > > programs > > > > to do stuff. They are confidernt that the Delphi program will > > work, > > > and > > > it > > > > will be cheap to develop.This comes from a history of delivery and > > > success. > > > > We get a lot of respect from our customers simply because we use > > > Delphi as > > > a > > > > development tool. > > > > > > > > So, there are a few NZ firms that think that if you write code in > > > Delphi, > > > it > > > > is going to work, it is probably going to easier to modify, and it > > is > > > > probably going to be able to address virtually any weird requirement > > > that > > > > you can throw at it. Although I am probably guilty of embellishing > > > the > > > > truth from time to time (of course we can make it run on Linux....of > > > course > > > > we can make it run on .NET), the general perception is that the > > Delphi > > > parts > > > > of the system can do whatever is required. > > > > > > > > If the customers like it, then what better perception could you ask > > > for? > > > > > > > > Scout > > > > > > > > P.S., please don't screw up the customer perception by writing crap > > > code. > > > > Of course you wouldn't, would you? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:21 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my > > > clients > > > > don't > > > > > read this) > > > > > > > > > > 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because > > they > > > don't > > > > > have the ability > > > > > to work for an outsource provider > > > > > > > > > > 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been > > replaced > > > with > > > > "No > > > > > one got fired for buying Microsoft" > > > > > > > > > > Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, > > > but > > > > what > > > > > amazes me is M$ by there own > > > > > admission didn't have a half decent dev system (which is the > > > motivation > > > > > behind C#) and they still dominate and > > > > > secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears > > > thatr > > > > > corporates have swallowed hook line > > > > > there .NET spin, We didn't require .NET to get platform > > portability > > > across > > > > > M$ platforms we needed M$ to put > > > > > more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a pseudo > > > JVM > > > > > killer which can be bent to there own > > > > > desires and 'we' are buying in not saying piss off > > > > > > > > > > Neven > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You probably will (flame). > > > > > > > > > > > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more > > > > decision > > > > > > makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ platform > > > developed > > > > > in > > > > > > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for > > > several > > > > TLAs > > > > > > who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the > > > > > development > > > > > > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have > > > little > > > > or > > > > > > no understanding of the software industry and perceive that if > > the > > > most > > > > > > common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the crappy > > > software > > > > > and > > > > > > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... > > > > ofcourse. > > > > > > No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of software > > > quality > > > > > ... > > > > > > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least > > > fixable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider > > > openoffice, > > > > linux > > > > > > based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything > > > based > > > > upon > > > > > > opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; aided > > > in no > > > > > small > > > > > > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about > > > relative > > > > > quality > > > > > > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest > > costly > > > tools > > > > > are > > > > > > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > > > > > > > > > > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you > > > demonstate > > > in > > > > > > your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose > > > obvious > > > > > > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as > > > part > > > of > > > > > your > > > > > > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty > > $$. > > > > > > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; > > the > > > > ability > > > > > > to critically appraise situations and advise their clients > > > objectively. > > > > I > > > > > > would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ language/ > > > company > > > was > > > > > not > > > > > > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably > > merits > > > in > > > > each > > > > > > tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than > > other > > > > aspects > > > > > of > > > > > > the problem and solution domains. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi > > out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys > > > > > > > > > > > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v > > > 'Delphi' > > > > > > Programmer is indicative > > > > > > of the malaise that is infecting this industry. You wouldn't > > hire > > > a > > > > > plumber > > > > > > based on wether > > > > > > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see > > adds > > > for > > > > > > Programmers with > > > > > > C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a wanting a > > > person a > > > > > narrow > > > > > > field > > > > > > of vision and they get one. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of > > product > > > > > > certification as a 'Qualification', > > > > > > MSCE is not a qualification it is a product knowledge test. This > > > is > > > > > starting > > > > > > to invade academic institutions in > > > > > > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific > > > training > > > > > > schools, You don't study 'Relational > > > > > > Database Theory' you are more likely to do Oracle 101. Having > > > programmed > > > > > in > > > > > > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > > > > > > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, > > > Interbase, > > > > > > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE > > > > > > It would be interesting to note I wouldn't make the short list > > for > > > a > > > C# > > > > > Job > > > > > > > > > > > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry > > having > > > been > > > > > > screwed by M$ and bitching and > > > > > > moaning to this effect have seen Microsoft launch another > > thinly > > > > > disguised > > > > > > plot for world domination and their response.... > > > > > > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually > > put > > > your > > > > > money > > > > > > where your mouth was > > > > > > > > > > > > Neven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi > > out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of > > sense. > > > The > > > > only > > > > > > > thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as > > > to > > > add > > > > > them > > > > > > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they > > > insist > > > > on > > > > > > > commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of > > taking > > > every > > > > > > > opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work > > > anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > > > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > > > > > *: 09 306 6801 > > > > > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi > > > out > > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as > > > well, > > > > since > > > > > > > you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first > > > and > > > > > > foremost, > > > > > > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my > > > CV/resume > > > > > with > > > > > > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable > > range > > > of > > > > > > languages > > > > > > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, > > > and > > > > maybe > > > > > > > Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the > > class > > > > > libraries > > > > > > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me > > to > > > > decide > > > > > on > > > > > > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the > > > remuneration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of > > things > > > like > > > > > > Design > > > > > > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that > > > knowledge > > > > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi > > > out > > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / > > Open > > > Road > > > > > > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the > > > market > > > > > than > > > > > > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its > > infancy > > > there > > > > > are > > > > > > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I > > > don't > > > > see > > > > > > any > > > > > > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the > > > .Net > > > > > access > > > > > > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets > > - > > > Swing, > > > > > > > servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't > > > have > > > > > relevant > > > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching > > > language > > > of > > > > > > choice > > > > > > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > > > > > > institutions > > > > > > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer > > > about > > > > $45K > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. > > I > > > > suspect > > > > > > that > > > > > > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of > > Delphi > > > > > software > > > > > > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise > > > that > > > > seems > > > > > to > > > > > > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, > > but > > > I am > > > > > > biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus > > > C# > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception > > > (by > > > > those > > > > > > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better > > > > programmers > > > > > > and > > > > > > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers > > get > > > paid > > > > > more > > > > > > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do > > > essentially > > > > > the > > > > > > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars > > > in > > > the > > > > > > bank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market > > > place? > > > > How > > > > > do > > > > > > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does > > it > > > pay > > > > > better > > > > > > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - > > would > > > hope > > > > so. > > > > > > > I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely > > > used in > > > > NZ > > > > > > and > > > > > > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct > > > > perception - > > > > > > are > > > > > > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# > > and > > > > vb.net? > > > > > > Is > > > > > > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in > > > > something > > > > > > used > > > > > > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less > > > people > > > > > > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > > > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > > > > > J: 09 306 6801 > > > > > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ~~~~ > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > This communication contains information that is confidential > > and > > > the > > > > > > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication > > > please > > > > > delete > > > > > > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 > > 9 > > > > 9205441 > > > > > > > immediately. 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