He.
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Nicolas Williams
<Nicolas.Williams at sun.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 07:34:22PM +0200, Martin Bochnig wrote:
>> I asked a question.
>> I was polite.
>> I didn't repeatedly apologize for things that I said in the _past_?
>
> Well, you did put the word 'community' in double quotes ("scare quotes")
> and 'lol' in the subject, and your e-mail was a bit of a tirade. ?I
> could see how someone might find that offensive. ?Can't you?
Ok, it was a mistake after a long day/night, when I was quite at the
end already.
I once again made the mistake that I blamed others for something
simply based on my *assumptions*.
Rather than first asking a few polite questions.
However, part of the story was the private communication with a Sun
employee I had 2 days ago, which wasn't very friendly, either (from
the other side first).
On the other hand: I know that a drop can poison an ocean.
However, please notice the positive language parts, not only the negative ones.
Such as "Dear OS/Net crowd" ... "Thank you" etc.
> At any rate, while project teams are supposed to use open project lists
> on opensolaris.org and/or community lists, it's not generally the case
> that _all_ project team communications happen in the open. ?I imagine
> that's often the case in other communities too (e.g., in the IETF we
> often have design teams doing work in private and then publishing their
> work -- the _process_ is open, but not all team communications need to
> be). ?That would often be a result of practicality: it's easy to call a
> teammate, talk to them in the hallway, IM them, ...; whereas using
> e-mail for every communication increases latency.
Ok, I do understand this.
> Perhaps we should encourage i-teams to use logged IRC channels / jabber
> rooms more, but even so we're bound to have phone calls and hallway
> discussions that are, by their very nature, not open.
>
> What *is* open is the development _process_. ?Meaning:
>
> ?- design reviews (these are not formally part of the Solaris
> ? development process nowadays, but i-teams often do these in the open)
>
> ?- architectural reviews
>
> ?- code reviews
>
> C-team review is often not conducted in the open, I think, but then
> c-team reviews are not terribly interesting from a community openness
> p.o.v.
Ok, maybe it could even constitute a security risk to discuss all the
potential vulnerabilities in the open.
>
> Unlike Linux we don't have one big kernel list with enormous traffic.
> Instead we split discussions up into multiple lists, as Liane explained.
I like the way in which Liane responded. I was happy with it.
I also read the docs, but I cannot always read everything, can you?
Frequently I help others on lists like xwin-, driver- or opensolaris-.
I sure know about mail.opensolaris.org.
I'm on 15 lists.
Some are mouse dead, others are not.
I thought of on-discuss to *be* one of those specialized lists.
I thought of it as the list for the global OS/Net gatekeepers.
It sure is, but not much of those things gets discussed in the open.
That's all I objected to.
I admit that I used the wrong tone (based on my private communication
from earlier).
I explicitly apologize for this.
>> I wondered about the purpose of this list. And about the differences
>> to other lists such as caiman in terms of traffic.
>
> on-discuss is for general issues rlating to ON, such as general build
> questions.
Ok, so I misunderstood what it stands for and hopelessly waited for
messages that would never come.
>> I said that I think many things are still being discussed on internal lists.
>> That's not true?
>
> Not for ON specifically, no.
>
> Nowadays we only use internal lists for customer support issues where
> the person posting the initial message believes that the subject is a
> private matter. ?Often the poster will get told to use an open list and
> not name the customer.
Ok, then I still do not understand everything, but
* I believe you
* trust you / Sun
* it relieves me and I am glad to hear it.
>> I am not participating in *any* project?
>
> I wouldn't know. ?Are you?
>
> Nico
Not any OS/Net project (yet!), that is true.
But not being involved in any OS/Net undertaking is not equal to doing
nothing at all:
I'm not directly a newbie.
In 2006 I created the MartUX SPARC-Distro,
Later I joined or co-created projects.
My profile:
http://www.opensolaris.org/viewProfile.jspa?id=1246
I must look up my SCA number.
Beyond Xorg, conary and the SPARC-LiveCD I repeatedly asked for others
to help me with broadening DRI/DRM support on x86 (on driver- and
xwin-), but nobody was or is interested.
I initiated it already, and described it.
And again, whenever I have a minute, am reading mails and a user needs
help, I support him.
This doesn't make me an OS/Net engineer.
But I'm certainly not "ghosting lists", as somebody claimed.
Regards and thanks,
%martin
