Helmut - I'm against the very notion of 'memes' because they are non-semiosic.
They are akin to solid material particles - and the cognitive process does not
swallow solid material particles. It transforms them within the semiosic
process. Again, memes are non-semiosic and not amenable to semiosis; you
swallow them.
I don't get your binary sets of
Meme-vs - rational belief
Diffusion - vs -narrative
Diffusion is a process; narrative is a 'thing'.
Meme is a 'thing'; a rational belief is a conclusion arrived at via reason.
Edwina
----- Original Message -----
From: Helmut Raulien
To: h.raul...@gmx.de
Cc: cl...@lextek.com ; Peirce-L
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 1:10 PM
Subject: Aw: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best
Morality)
Supplement:
Sorry that I always add supplements, but now there is something about
diffusion I want tio add: A crystal of potassium permanganate diffuses in water
and turns it pink, but in oil it does not. A meme or an idea diffuses only when
it is put into a proper social environment, that is a social system with a
structure that allows the idea to diffuse (and copy itself). That is why I
think, that the diffusion concept is not wrong, but neither complete.
Clark, Edwina, Stephen, List,
I do not see, that there is an either-or, regarding memes and rational
beliefs, or diffusion versus narratives, or subconscious versus conscious
structure-elements. I think, that there is both, and that it always is good to
make the subconscious conscious, that is, to uncover memes to see where they
come from. Many of them are myths, that is lies- and these lies may have been
told deliberately, or they may have come up by a social systems own dynamics,
as any system intends to reinforce itself. Anyway, to make the subconscious
conscious is the way of psychoanalysis, and I do not see, what is so wrong
about it, fundamentally. Of course, it is bad to have a wrong analysis, and
Freud probably was wrong in many places (eg., that a child is
polymorph-pervert). But I think, it is very good to replace a diffusion with a
narrative- if the narrative is telling the truth, and if this can be made sure.
Can it? By scientific method?
Best,
Helmut
"Clark Goble" <cl...@lextek.com>
On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca> wrote:
Clark - I prefer not to think of Jung. You wrote:
"the sorts of things structuralism dealt with in treating the mind as
literature were correct."
I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
In most ways psychoanalysis is treating the mind (especially dreams) as if
they were a literary work to be interpreted with the various ways literature
was interpreted. That’s why even though Jung, Freud and company aren’t
typically taken seriously in science they still are in literature departments.
The way a person interprets literature simply is quite different from say
what goes on in contemporary psychology or cognitive science.
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