[EVDL] EVLN: Psst. Hey, buddy, want to buy a black-market used EV battery?

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093810_electric-car-batteries-what-happens-to-them-after-coming-out-of-the-car
Electric-Car Batteries: What Happens To Them After Coming Out Of The Car?
By John Voelcker  Aug 12, 2014

[image  
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla_100325170_m.jpg
Tesla Motors - Model S lithium-ion battery pack

http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/2011-chevrolet-volt_100323478_s.jpg
Lithium-ion battery pack for 2011 Chevrolet Volt

http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/2011-nissan-leaf_100345418_s.jpg
Lithium-ion battery pack of 2011 Nissan Leaf, showing cells assembled into
modules

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/honda-smart-home-at-uc-davis-california_100461630_l.jpg
Photovoltaic solar panels on roof of Honda Smart Home at UC-Davis,
California
]

It's one of the recurring questions asked by electric-car skeptics: Yeah,
but what about all those battery packs? Won't they just end up in landfills?

We know already that the 12-Volt lead-acid car battery appears to be the
most-recycled consumer good in the world--though that's largely for safety
reasons, as lead is far more toxic than the materials in lithium-ion
batteries. 

More recently, hybrid car-makers have had programs to take back and safely
dispose of used or damaged high-voltage battery packs for 15 years. Those
nickel-metal-hydride cells contain precious metals with a known recycling
value.

But for the much higher-capacity lithium-ion batteries used in electric
cars, the answers may be slightly different.

A new report from the Mineta Transportation Institute at San Jose State
University in California suggests that 20 years hence, there may be 1.3
million to 6.7 million used battery packs from electric cars.

According to the report, as covered in Recycling International (via
ChargedEVs), roughly 85 percent of those could be suitable for "post-vehicle
use," with the remaining 15 percent likely damaged beyond repair.

There may not be a business model in recycling them, however: The materials
in a lithium-ion battery pack are relatively inexpensive, and even with
technological breakthroughs, the report estimates that only 20 percent of
the cost of recycling could be recouped by selling the recovered materials.

Instead, the value will lie in secondary uses--depending, of course, on what
value the market assigns to a used pack.

The report suggests that while this area is "less well-defined," repurposing
the packs for other uses could be economical at a cost of $83 to $114 per
kilowatt-hour.

For a 24-kWh used pack out of a Nissan Leaf, then, the value might range
from $2,000 to $2,750.

The replacement cost of a new Leaf pack (on which Nissan has said it loses
money today) is $5,500, assuming the old pack is turned back to Nissan (and
the electric-car maker has its own plans for secondary-use businesses as
well).

One potential application might be bundling a used electric-car battery with
photovoltaic solar panels for home use, allowing homeowners not only to
generate renewable electricity but to store it.

The average U.S. home uses 32 kWh a day, so a Leaf battery pack that may
have 16 kWh of usable capacity left could power the home for a substantial
portion of its day.

And forward-looking electric utilities are considering the opportunities to
decouple such homes from the grid temporarily during periods of peak demand,
reducing the utility's peak load.

One thing is certain, however: As Nissan is already doing, every maker of
plug-in electric cars will have a program to take back used or damaged
battery packs.

Some of them will see the value in repairing them--replacing defective
modules and putting them back into stock as remanufactured parts--while
others may set up separate businesses to sell them for secondary uses.

Which means it's only a matter of time until a "black market" emerges. Psst,
buddy: Wanna buy a used electric-car battery?
[© greencarreports.com]




For all EVLN posts use:
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http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/8629/20140818/tesla-increases-model-s-evs-warranty-coverage.htm
Tesla-S' unlimited mileage warranty for eight years
...
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/08/tesla-removes-mileage-limits-on-drive-unit-warranty-program/
Tesla removes mileage limits on drive unit warranty program

http://dailyfusion.net/2014/08/x-rays-ev-battery-materials-31163/
X-Rays Track Chemical Reactions in EV Battery Materials

http://www.gazettextra.com/20140807/janesville_police_consider_buying_electric_motorcycle
$18k Janesville police  e-motorcycle the ~same cost as a squad car

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Aug/France-to-offer-1-euros-scrappage-for-EV-purchases/0438015820
France offering €10k scrapping of a diesel ice for an EV purchase
...
http://www.ibtimes.com/france-may-give-diesel-car-owners-1-euros-switch-electric-vehicles-1656682

http://www.suin

[EVDL] EVLN: Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV (video)

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/11/jay-leno-harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle-video/
Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV
By Chris Bruce  Aug 11th 2014

[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyJr8BoklC0
Harley-Davidson Project LiveWire - Jay Leno's Garage
Jay Leno's Garage Aug 10, 2014
Harley is inviting you to ride their first electric-engined motorcycle and
tell them what you think.


images  
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/harley-davidson-livewire-first-ride/
gallery
]

Harley-Davidson shocked the motorcycling world when it unveiled its Livewire
electric bike concept earlier this year. It seemed to go from vague rumors
to a full-on, existing piece of machinery in just a matter of days. Even
more amazing, the company immediately launched a test-ride campaign
throughout the US to gather the opinions of the brand's fans. Of course, if
you're Jay Leno, such exotic machinery comes straight to your front door –
because he is a huge fan, for starters, though the popularity of Jay Leno's
Garage likely doesn't hurt, either. This week, he takes a look at the future
of Harley and even takes it for a ride.

While it's rideable, the Livewire is still very much a concept that is still
in development. The range is limited to a little over 50 miles for the demo
units, and the top speed right now is limited to 92 miles per hour. Leno
actually seems a little dubious about the Harley at first when he's checking
it out in his garage and openly points out some of the design features that
grate on him.

Once he throws a leg over it for a ride, though, some of those little
complaints seem to melt away. In its current state, Leno compares the ride
of the Livewire to that of a 500cc bike, and he especially loves the
regenerative braking and lack of noise. It might not be perfect in Jay's
mind right now, but he definitely warms to the idea. 
[© autoblog.com]
...
http://stupiddope.com/2014/08/12/jay-leno-rides-harley-davidson-livewire-ev-video/
Jay Leno Rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV | Video
[2014/08/12]
...
https://autos.yahoo.com/news/jay-leno-test-drives-electric-harley-davidson-livewire-163043820.html
'If it passes the critical eye of Jay Leno, its good enough for you'
August 13, 2014
...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2014/08/15/electric-motorcycles-go-mainstream-harleys-livewire/
Harley Livewire e-Motorcycle plays up a youthful, hip appeal
August 15, 2014




For all EVLN posts use:
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http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/8629/20140818/tesla-increases-model-s-evs-warranty-coverage.htm
Tesla-S' unlimited mileage warranty for eight years
...
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/08/tesla-removes-mileage-limits-on-drive-unit-warranty-program/
Tesla removes mileage limits on drive unit warranty program

http://dailyfusion.net/2014/08/x-rays-ev-battery-materials-31163/
X-Rays Track Chemical Reactions in EV Battery Materials

http://www.gazettextra.com/20140807/janesville_police_consider_buying_electric_motorcycle
$18k Janesville police  e-motorcycle the ~same cost as a squad car

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2014/Aug/France-to-offer-1-euros-scrappage-for-EV-purchases/0438015820
France offering €10k scrapping of a diesel ice for an EV purchase
...
http://www.ibtimes.com/france-may-give-diesel-car-owners-1-euros-switch-electric-vehicles-1656682

http://www.suindependent.com/news/id_6403/Driving-from-St-George-to-Vegas-for-free?-Tesla-introduces-vehicle-charging-stations-on-Sunset-Blvd-.html
St. George UT Supercharger EVSE = Tesla Driving to Vegas for free
+
EVLN: Psst. Hey, buddy, want to buy a black-market used EV battery?


{brucedp.150m.com}



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV (video)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

The Livewire is getting good reviews in the mainstream motorcycle press,
but it remains to be seen if that means anything.  It is being trotted
around the country to be shown to Harley riders and dealers for feedback.
 Sorry if this seems closed-minded, but that's hardly the most open-minded
or forward thinking crowd.  There are already reports that the response has
been varying degrees of "WTF?".

Some Harley dealerships have more floor space devoted to Harley-labeled
boots, vests, chain wallets, ashtrays and phones that go VROOM when they
ring than motorcycles.  I just can't see that demographic bending their
heads around such an alien concept as an eMC.  Harley is a cult, and it's
just not wise to introduce anything that will lead to rifts among the
devoted.

I'm thinking a new brand is in order, sort of like Toyota and Lexus cars
are sold in different dealerships.  But that's a pretty big undertaking.
 Maybe the Livewire is just the tip of the spear in a Harley attempt to
expand to new markets?

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV (video)

[Bruce EVangel Parmenter via EV]

>  Maybe the Livewire is just the tip of the spear in a Harley attempt to
> expand to new markets? <

You may have something there. HD has a history of doing that with
varying degrees of success. You have to give them credit for having the
nards to do that. 

Back when HD originally made their announcement, my take was also WTF. I
mean HD is well know for ice motorcycles, and there are already plenty
of e-motorcycle companies on the market vying for business. So, why
would HD, as an e-motorcycle beginner, jump into a more-mature-than-them
e-motorcycle market?

As far as I know, there is no CARB requirement that makes motorcycle
companies sell e-versions for credits like with four wheel vehicles. So
again, why is HD doing this? Is it a token effort to show they could
('we made an e-motorcycle, but no one wanted it ...'). Is there some
other method to their madness?

At EVS-20
http://brucedp03.150m.com/evs-20/
John Deer (well known for their farming and other well made equipment)
had brought a small fc-hybrid Gator vehicle
http://brucedp03.150m.com/evs-20/IMG_0292.jpg

I talked to the JD rep, and asked why they made one, when clearly they
did not have a strong market need to.. He said their R&D engineers
wanted to show that they could do it. So, was that money and time JD
spent (wasted) on that vehicle's development justified as PR, or was it
a toy for their engineer's amusement ('look what we made! ... '). As far
as I know, JD never pursued serious marketing of that vehicle, but sold
plenty of its ice versions.

So, we are back full circle ... Why did HD make an e-motorcycle?
While I hope they did it for the best reasons: more EVs on the road, but
most large established ice-product companies do not try to sell EVs.


{brucedp.150m.com}
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTF
...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nards
...
http://www.deere.com/wps/dcom/en_INT/products/equipment/gator_utility_vehicles/gator_utility_vehicles.page
...
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87981&p=irol-livewire





-
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014, at 04:28 AM, Chris Tromley wrote:
> The Livewire is getting good reviews in the mainstream motorcycle press,
> but it remains to be seen if that means anything.  It is being trotted
> around the country to be shown to Harley riders and dealers for feedback.
>  Sorry if this seems closed-minded, but that's hardly the most
>  open-minded
> or forward thinking crowd.  There are already reports that the response
> has
> been varying degrees of "WTF?".
> 
> Some Harley dealerships have more floor space devoted to Harley-labeled
> boots, vests, chain wallets, ashtrays and phones that go VROOM when they
> ring than motorcycles.  I just can't see that demographic bending their
> heads around such an alien concept as an eMC.  Harley is a cult, and it's
> just not wise to introduce anything that will lead to rifts among the
> devoted.
> 
> I'm thinking a new brand is in order, sort of like Toyota and Lexus cars
> are sold in different dealerships.  But that's a pretty big undertaking.
>  Maybe the Livewire is just the tip of the spear in a Harley attempt to
> expand to new markets?
-

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV (video)

[Chris Tromley via EV]

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> So
> ​ ​
> again, why is HD doing this? Is it a token effort to show they could
> ('we made an e-motorcycle, but no one wanted it ...'). Is there some
> other method to their madness?


​FWIW, not only are the prototypes very effective and well thought out as
an eMC.  They are also very well finished.  All the details have been
tweaked to give the appearance of production motorcycles.  There is nothing
to give the impression of a prototype like machined-from-solid parts or
hand formed panels.  There are 20 bikes on this tour, and it appears there
was at least some expensive tooling used to make them.  This is a fairly
large scale effort.

Chris
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV (video)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Maybe the Livewire is just the tip of the spear in a Harley attempt to
expand to new markets?


Bruce EVangel Parmenter via EV wrote:

You may have something there. HD has a history of doing that with
varying degrees of success. You have to give them credit for having the
nards to do that.


After all, Harley has made golf carts, "meter reader" cars, military 
vehicles, and other things well away from the traditional "Harley" 
motorcycle crowd.


It might be a good strategy to establish yourself in a new market with a 
high-profile product that's bound to get a lot of press. Announce the 
"real product" later.


--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Lee Hart via EV]

Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:

What, as a matter of interest, is an acceptable amount of resistance in a 
battery or cell terminal connection?  MW


It depends on the current, how long it has to carry it, and how large 
and effective the terminals are at radiating the heat produced.


But in general, the resistance had better be a small fraction of the 
internal resistance of the cell or battery itself; otherwise, most of 
your energy will be thrown away as heat before it ever gets to your load!


Most EV-size cells and batteries have an internal resistance of a few 
milliohms. As a rule of thumb, you want your inter-battery connection 
resistance to be under 10% of this. For example, if your cell is 3 
milliohms, that means 0.3 milliohms cell-to-cell.


--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
as heat.


Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:

At EVERY connection?  In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
nearly 350W of heat!


No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You 
will discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that 
good with aluminum terminals!


--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno rides Harley-Davidson Livewire EV (video)

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am not sure you are giving HD the company enough credit.  There
engineering is quite good, but they also know their market and have mined
it very well.  They will not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

HD riders imagine themselves to be outsiders, and indeed some really are.
 I can see the E bike appealing to some, and opening up a new market.
Livewire (a good name) is an interesting way for them to break their mold
without breaking their mold.  If they built a stylish production E
motorcycle line that is better then ICE,  just as Tesla has - that would be
a pretty smart move.

WTF, would become "I would like that in my garage, too."  Right now HD owns
the market of overpriced motorcycles with looks and coolness (matter of
opinion - I am an an old British 2 cylinder guy and prefer Nortons), HD
could be a leader in electric bikes with looks and coolness, too.  Seems
like that have a head start for now.


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Chris Tromley via EV 
wrote:

> The Livewire is getting good reviews in the mainstream motorcycle press,
> but it remains to be seen if that means anything.  It is being trotted
> around the country to be shown to Harley riders and dealers for feedback.
>  Sorry if this seems closed-minded, but that's hardly the most open-minded
> or forward thinking crowd.  There are already reports that the response has
> been varying degrees of "WTF?".
>
> Some Harley dealerships have more floor space devoted to Harley-labeled
> boots, vests, chain wallets, ashtrays and phones that go VROOM when they
> ring than motorcycles.  I just can't see that demographic bending their
> heads around such an alien concept as an eMC.  Harley is a cult, and it's
> just not wise to introduce anything that will lead to rifts among the
> devoted.
>
> I'm thinking a new brand is in order, sort of like Toyota and Lexus cars
> are sold in different dealerships.  But that's a pretty big undertaking.
>  Maybe the Livewire is just the tip of the spear in a Harley attempt to
> expand to new markets?
>
> Chris
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>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Martin,
Delivering 300A at 120V is 36,000 Watts, so losing 350W in the wiring
and terminal connections means only 1% loss in the grand scheme of
things.
A single traffic light turning red in front of you so you have to stop
and again accelerate up to speed is likely a bigger difference in the
efficiency of a trip...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:08 AM
To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>> Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
>> magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
>> give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
>> as heat.

Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
> At EVERY connection?  In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
> nearly 350W of heat!

No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You 
will discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that 
good with aluminum terminals!

-- 
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

This all points to why packs of small cells (laptop cells is probably a
misnomer these days) that have conductors welded to them (as with Tesla)
are a better solution.

Has anyone tried assembling a pack like:
https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=5943603287809906194&oid=100767276460953028406

This is the battery I bought for my Organic Transit ELF.

A friend of mine who designs a lot of automation for soldering, inductive
heating and welding said you might be able to do this with a 240VAC spot
welder. For example:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#spot-welders/=tckvx1

That battery could be welded up on a conveyor in really high volumes.  The
connection is stainless steel to stainless steel, no need for grease and
goo, no sanding, no loosening.



On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
>> Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
>>> magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
>>> give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
>>> as heat.
>>>
>>
> Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
>
>> At EVERY connection?  In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
>> nearly 350W of heat!
>>
>
> No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You will
> discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that good with
> aluminum terminals!
>
>
> --
> You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
> something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
> -- R. Buckminster Fuller
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Question on how to measure resistance.   If you use an ohm meter to 
measure resistance, I presume it is using a 1mA or smaller current.  In 
electronics applications, that's probably fine.  But in a situation 
where typical current is in the hundreds of amps, will taking a 
measurement that way be reliable?


It seems that for low current, you will be measuring more-or-less the 
best path through the circuit - in this case from terminal to cable.  
That is, there may be small areas with good metal contact and lots of 
areas with lesser contact or none.  With high current, won't those good 
contact areas become overloaded and their resistance increase?


If so, then I presume a better way to measure resistance under high 
current would be exactly that: apply high current and measure the 
voltage drop.


Anyone care to validate or invalidate this?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Sent: 19-Aug-14 9:15:36 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -


Martin,
Delivering 300A at 120V is 36,000 Watts, so losing 350W in the wiring
and terminal connections means only 1% loss in the grand scheme of
things.
A single traffic light turning red in front of you so you have to stop
and again accelerate up to speed is likely a bigger difference in the
efficiency of a trip...

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via 
EV

Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:08 AM
To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

 Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
 magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
 give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
 as heat.


Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:

 At EVERY connection? In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
 nearly 350W of heat!


No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You
will discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that
good with aluminum terminals!

--
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
 -- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Roland via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> From: Peri Hartman via EV 
> 
> Question on how to measure resistance.   If you use an ohm meter to 
> measure resistance, I presume it is using a 1mA or smaller current.

Which would mean you're looking for microvolts, which would be lost in induced 
noise.

As you surmise the only reasonable way to measure milliohm resistance is with 
amps or tens of amps.

 Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes. -- Henry David Thoreau
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Martin WINLOW via EV]

Cor,  It wasn't the losses I was aghast at it was the thought of having a 
mini-stove going in my battery box!

I was also wondering if the easiest way of measuring the cell terminal 
connection resistance would be to disconnect the pack and just put a large 
resistor across it sufficient to draw half an amp or so but what ever it was, 
very carefully measure the current flow (and keep monitoring it in case it 
changes as the resistor value changes with heat) and then measure your voltage 
drops across each connection.  Much the same as other have suggested, just a 
bit more 'regulated', maybe.  MW


On 19 Aug 2014, at 17:15, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> Martin,
> Delivering 300A at 120V is 36,000 Watts, so losing 350W in the wiring
> and terminal connections means only 1% loss in the grand scheme of
> things.
> A single traffic light turning red in front of you so you have to stop
> and again accelerate up to speed is likely a bigger difference in the
> efficiency of a trip...
> 
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:08 AM
> To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -
> 
> Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>> Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
>>> magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
>>> give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
>>> as heat.
> 
> Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
>> At EVERY connection?  In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
>> nearly 350W of heat!
> 
> No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You 
> will discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that 
> good with aluminum terminals!
> 
> -- 
> You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
> something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
>   -- R. Buckminster Fuller
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Peter Gabrielsson via EV]

You need a very expensive spot welder to weld lithium cells in cans without
damaging them. Bill Dube is the expert on this topic but I don't think he's
on the list anymore. There's some info on this page:
http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_Batterypacks.html

The harbor freight welder is a good way to end up with a lithium fire.




On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> This all points to why packs of small cells (laptop cells is probably a
> misnomer these days) that have conductors welded to them (as with Tesla)
> are a better solution.
>
> Has anyone tried assembling a pack like:
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=5943603287809906194&oid=100767276460953028406
>
> This is the battery I bought for my Organic Transit ELF.
>
> A friend of mine who designs a lot of automation for soldering, inductive
> heating and welding said you might be able to do this with a 240VAC spot
> welder. For example:
> http://www.mcmaster.com/#spot-welders/=tckvx1
>
> That battery could be welded up on a conveyor in really high volumes.  The
> connection is stainless steel to stainless steel, no need for grease and
> goo, no sanding, no loosening.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Lee Hart via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> >
> >> Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
> >>> magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
> >>> give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
> >>> as heat.
> >>>
> >>
> > Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
> >
> >> At EVERY connection?  In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
> >> nearly 350W of heat!
> >>
> >
> > No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You will
> > discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that good
> with
> > aluminum terminals!
> >
> >
> > --
> > You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
> > something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
> > -- R. Buckminster Fuller
> > --
> > Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Jan Steinman via EV]

From: Roland via EV 
> 
> Attach a milliamp meter shunting that one link that was torque...

It seems to me that what you mean is a milliVOLT meter.

A milliammeter has a low internal resistance that can give you errors if you 
don't have a good connection between it and the test circuit.

A millivoltmeter has high internal resistance, which means it's going to be 
immune to orders-of-magnitude changes in its probe contact resistance, albeit 
somewhat balanced by greater sensitivity to electrical noise.

 Court challenges over cow-share programs and regulatory efforts to further 
restrict the availability of raw milk have met heavy consumer resistance, in 
spite of biased media coverage that merely reports government propaganda. -- 
Ron Schmid
 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 
 (Send email to qu...@bytesmiths.com to get a random quote, or 
quo...@bytesmiths.com to get 50 random quotes. Put a word in the Subject line 
to filter for that word.)

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Re: [EVDL] Conversion advice

[ph...@bill-collins.net via EV]

Thanks for all the advice.  I'll probably keep the DC system since selling it
for a good price seems unlikely.

I appreciate hearing the different viewpoints, it's given me a lot to think
about.

Bill
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

ality. To change
>> something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
>>  -- R. Buckminster Fuller
>> --
>> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
>> ___
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>> group/NEDRA)
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>>
>>
>>
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*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
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To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
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<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Cor van de Water via EV]

ave to stop
>> and again accelerate up to speed is likely a bigger difference in the
>> efficiency of a trip...
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Chief Scientist
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:08 AM
>> To: Martin WINLOW; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -
>>
>> Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  Depends on your current. Typically I would say in the order of
>>>>  magnitude of 0.1 mOhm (milliOhm) because a 300A current will then
>>>>  give 30mV drop, which produces 300A x 0.03V = 9 Watt of power loss
>>>>  as heat.
>>>>
>>>
>> Martin WINLOW via EV wrote:
>>
>>>  At EVERY connection? In a 120V lithium pack that 's 38 x 9 =
>>>  nearly 350W of heat!
>>>
>>
>> No; Cor has it right. And, 0.1 milliohms is a *good* connection. You
>> will discover that it is damnably difficult to make a connection that
>> good with aluminum terminals!
>>
>> --
>> You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change
>> something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
>>  -- R. Buckminster Fuller
>> --
>> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>
>>
>>
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-- 
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*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2014 at 14:09, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> However, you need to make 300A steadily while you read the drop.  I am not
> sure how you guy would do that at home. 

With a dummy load - something that dumps current as heat, and something to 
carry the heat away.  

There are many ways to make one.  I made mine with a fan and heat strips 
from a derelict heat pump.  Others have used electric water heater elements, 
or even coat hanger wire in a barrel of water.  You'll find several 
discussions of this in the archive.

But honestly, unless you're trying to eke out the very last meter of range, 
you don't need all this.  Drive the car on a hilly route.  Pop the battery 
cases open and (carefully) feel each terminal (hand over, not on, at first). 
The hottest ones need attention.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2014 at 12:20, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> Has anyone tried assembling a pack like:
> https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=5943603287809906194&oid=100767276460953028406

Don't know.  Can't see it.  :-(

Folks, if you want the EVDL membership to see your pictures, please don't 
post them where we have to log in to see them.  

There are many websites where you can post pictures that don't require the 
viewer to log in.  There are even some where you can post without logging 
yourself.  Using exclusive "walled gardens" like Google Plus and Facebook 
isn't much better than taping up pictures on the bulletin board in an  
apartment complex laundry room.  Only people who already know you well 
(online) can see them.

Please see point 5 in the list conventions :

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Suggestions :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photo_sharing_websites

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

Is it easy to create exactly 10 amps?  (not rhetorical)
Don't many chargers vary a good bit depending on the load the work into?
In which case, you need to have a second instrument for the current
measurement, and it needs to be sufficiently accurate and steady.

I measure four wire resistance all the time for temperature measurements
using platinum RTDs and thermistors.  It is the only way to go for
accuracy.

My main point is to know and understand if your instrument is up to the
task.


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> It is not a problem to create a known current in the order of 10 Amps
> either by using the existing charger on the vehicle or an external power
> supply. That produces a 1mV drop for a 0.1 Ohms resistance.
> Since the measurement does not need to be extremely accurate,
> you just want to verify that all connections are in the 0.1 mOhm range
> and none are more than double that, you can suffice with pretty simple
> instrumentation that allows you to distinguish between 1 and 2 mV, while
> you send that approx 10 Amps through the connection, either by actually
> charging
> or with external means. You just need to take care to always probe on the
> same spot on the battery terminal (preferably as close as possible to the
> cell themselves, so the Alu or copper contact would be good if you can
> reach it, the alu nut around that contact would be the next best thing.
> Read up on 4-point resistance measurement (Kelvin sensing) if you are
> not familiar with how the sensing points will influence the measurement:
> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_8/9.html
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>
> ​SNIP
>
-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Cor van de Water via EV]

David, others,
I don't know what happened - I just used "Reply"
but noticed that the message looked weird letter type,
even in my Outlook client.
I hope this message is just plain text, so all can see it now.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de
Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:54 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

It is not a problem to create a known current in the order of 10 Amps
either by using the existing charger on the vehicle or an external power
supply. That produces a 1mV drop for a 0.1 Ohms resistance.
Since the measurement does not need to be extremely accurate,
you just want to verify that all connections are in the 0.1 mOhm range
and none are more than double that, you can suffice with pretty simple
instrumentation that allows you to distinguish between 1 and 2 mV, while
you send that approx 10 Amps through the connection, either by actually
charging
or with external means. You just need to take care to always probe on
the same spot on the battery terminal (preferably as close as possible
to the cell themselves, so the Alu or copper contact would be good if
you can reach it, the alu nut around that contact would be the next best
thing.
Read up on 4-point resistance measurement (Kelvin sensing) if you are
not familiar with how the sensing points will influence the measurement:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_8/9.html

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Cor van de Water via EV]

The pic shows a staggered set of 6p8s cells with Nickel? weldeedd strips
on the column of parallel cells.
It appears that there are 2 of these sets total in the pack (a white
separator can be seen between the two layers) so apparently it is total
16 series, which would make it a pack of 51V or 60V depending on the
cell technology. If the cells are 3Ah then it would be an 18Ah pack of
about 1kWh

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

On 19 Aug 2014 at 12:20, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> Has anyone tried assembling a pack like:
>
https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=5943603287809906194&oid=1007672764609
53028406

Don't know.  Can't see it.  :-(

Folks, if you want the EVDL membership to see your pictures, please
don't 
post them where we have to log in to see them.  

There are many websites where you can post pictures that don't require
the 
viewer to log in.  There are even some where you can post without
logging 
yourself.  Using exclusive "walled gardens" like Google Plus and
Facebook 
isn't much better than taping up pictures on the bulletin board in an  
apartment complex laundry room.  Only people who already know you well 
(online) can see them.

Please see point 5 in the list conventions :

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv

Suggestions :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photo_sharing_websites

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

Sorry about the picture.  I don't have another file service.  I will put
the image on my webpage if it still works.

Cor has it right.  It is 16 "cells" making a 48V pack of LFP.  The cells
are each a group of parallel cells. Sold as a 20Ah pack (who know how
accurate that is) and it does indeed put out about 1kWh.  The groups have a
strip of stainless (my presumption) with 4 tiny spot welds on between the
strip and each individual cell.  The 16 cells are connected in series with
shorter strips also spot welded in place.

It is clear that with the right combination of voltage and current that you
can weld them together without starting a fire.  What that combination is,
I can say, but it won;'t be a very powerful setup and there is no real
reason why it has to be expensive.

I guess no one has tried this, yet?  It seems pretty effective from an end
user POV.


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> The pic shows a staggered set of 6p8s cells with Nickel? weldeedd strips
> on the column of parallel cells.
> It appears that there are 2 of these sets total in the pack (a white
> separator can be seen between the two layers) so apparently it is total
> 16 series, which would make it a pack of 51V or 60V depending on the
> cell technology. If the cells are 3Ah then it would be an 18Ah pack of
> about 1kWh
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 11:58 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -
>
> On 19 Aug 2014 at 12:20, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried assembling a pack like:
> >
> https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=5943603287809906194&oid=1007672764609
> 53028406
>
> Don't know.  Can't see it.  :-(
>
> Folks, if you want the EVDL membership to see your pictures, please
> don't
> post them where we have to log in to see them.
>
> There are many websites where you can post pictures that don't require
> the
> viewer to log in.  There are even some where you can post without
> logging
> yourself.  Using exclusive "walled gardens" like Google Plus and
> Facebook
> isn't much better than taping up pictures on the bulletin board in an
> apartment complex laundry room.  Only people who already know you well
> (online) can see them.
>
> Please see point 5 in the list conventions :
>
> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
>
> Suggestions :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_hosting_services
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_photo_sharing_websites
>
> Thanks.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

se everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
>
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Peri Hartman via EV]

62.html>

 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 *Warren Buffet*

 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
 Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 (919) 513-0418 Desk

 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 






--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google 
Phone

(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2014 at 15:57, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

>  I don't have another file service.

The following are not official EVDL recommendations, but rather my personal 
suggestion.  They used to be official EVDL recommendations, but a few people 
found things to gripe about with them.  Now my official recommendation is to 
see the Wikipedia lists of filesharing services.  But I personally have used 
the 3 below and have been satisfied with them within the limits and cautions 
stated on each one.

I like imagebin http://imagebin.org/ pretty well.  However, paranoid 
browsers have fits over it, because apparently a few slimy users have 
figured out how to post malware there.  (My pix there do not have malware.)  
It requires no signup or login.  Just upload what you have and anyone can 
view it.  It has unobtrusive ads, if any.  You need javascript to post, but 
not to view photos. One big downside of imagebin is that your upload is 
temporary.  Their database holds 5000 photos, and new ones push older ones 
out.  Typical life of your photo is around 2 weeks.

tinypic.com also requires no signup or login, either to upload or view.  
However, I think its ads are probably more aggressive.  (I don't know, I use 
various ad-blocking schemes on my computer, so I see none.)  It also 
requires javascript to post and view.  Photos on tinypic eventually vanish 
if they're not accessed now and then.  I just checked a photo I uploaded 
there in 2008, and it's still online, but a video clip I sent around 2002 is 
gone.

uploadhouse.com is a third site which requires no membership or logins, 
either to upload or view.  You do need javascipt to upload, but not to view 
the uploaded pictures. I don't know what the ads are like there either, but 
they do push their own hosting service pretty hard.  Also, make sure you get 
the URL right, because they allow (often VERY) NSFW pictures.

Hope this helps.  Sorry for taking up bandwidth, but it's for EVDL business.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Peri Hartman via EV]

se NEDRA
 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

 ___
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 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)





 --
 Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
 happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
 *Dalai Lama *


 Tell me what it is you plan to do
 With your one wild and precious life?
 Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

 To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
 Thomas A. Edison
 <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>


 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 *Warren Buffet*


 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> 
Google


 Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 (919) 513-0418 Desk

 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 






--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *


Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*


Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google 
Phone


(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain 
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?

Dalai Lama

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
Warren Buffet

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com




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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/19/2014 01:58 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 19 Aug 2014 at 12:20, Michael Ross via EV wrote:


Has anyone tried assembling a pack like:
https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=5943603287809906194&oid=100767276460953028406

Don't know.  Can't see it.  :-(

Folks, if you want the EVDL membership to see your pictures, please don't
post them where we have to log in to see them.

The above URL worked for me.

Please inform me if my Google+ page is not visible to all:
https://plus.google.com/102434734002949174273/posts

Perhaps one has to be logged on to Google?  I didn't think so.


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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2014 at 16:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> This should be viewable by anyone
> https://sites.google.com/site/michaeleross/misc

This one works fine for me.  (I do have javascript enabled for Google; it 
might be required for this page.)

Thanks for setting it up!  The two snipurl links said they were invalid.

It's an interesting battery.  I take it that's some kind of BMS top right in 
the first photo?  

What kind of cells are they?  I mean what size, chemistry, brand?  Did you 
assemble the battery yourself?  How did you fasten the links?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

The website is now working.  I forgot to save the changes.

I am not branching out to more services.  Better for me to learn how to use
Google and whatever new stuff they have added.  I used Google Picasaweb for
years without any trouble.  The images I linked to were migrated to G+.  I
am guessing that I am looking at them logged in as me, and the URL is
different when others try to go there.  I need to figure out how to view G+
as not me.


Peri has been able to see this now:
https://sites.google.com/site/michaeleross/misc


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:44 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 19 Aug 2014 at 15:57, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> >  I don't have another file service.
>
> The following are not official EVDL recommendations, but rather my personal
> suggestion.  They used to be official EVDL recommendations, but a few
> people
> found things to gripe about with them.  Now my official recommendation is
> to
> see the Wikipedia lists of filesharing services.  But I personally have
> used
> the 3 below and have been satisfied with them within the limits and
> cautions
> stated on each one.
>
> I like imagebin http://imagebin.org/ pretty well.  However, paranoid
> browsers have fits over it, because apparently a few slimy users have
> figured out how to post malware there.  (My pix there do not have malware.)
> It requires no signup or login.  Just upload what you have and anyone can
> view it.  It has unobtrusive ads, if any.  You need javascript to post, but
> not to view photos. One big downside of imagebin is that your upload is
> temporary.  Their database holds 5000 photos, and new ones push older ones
> out.  Typical life of your photo is around 2 weeks.
>
> tinypic.com also requires no signup or login, either to upload or view.
> However, I think its ads are probably more aggressive.  (I don't know, I
> use
> various ad-blocking schemes on my computer, so I see none.)  It also
> requires javascript to post and view.  Photos on tinypic eventually vanish
> if they're not accessed now and then.  I just checked a photo I uploaded
> there in 2008, and it's still online, but a video clip I sent around 2002
> is
> gone.
>
> uploadhouse.com is a third site which requires no membership or logins,
> either to upload or view.  You do need javascipt to upload, but not to view
> the uploaded pictures. I don't know what the ads are like there either, but
> they do push their own hosting service pretty hard.  Also, make sure you
> get
> the URL right, because they allow (often VERY) NSFW pictures.
>
> Hope this helps.  Sorry for taking up bandwidth, but it's for EVDL
> business.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2014 at 15:48, Willie2 via EV wrote:

> Please inform me if my Google+ page is not visible to all:
> https://plus.google.com/102434734002949174273/posts
> 
> Perhaps one has to be logged on to Google?  I didn't think so.
> 

 I had no trouble seeing your page, and I'm not logged in to Google.

When I place the cursor over the pictures, a link to "Willie McKernie's 
photos" pops up.  If I left-click on that link (presumably to see more 
photos of that item), I get your entire photo album, not just the item 
pictured.  

If I right-click on the link and try to open it in a new tab (the way I 
prefer), nothing is viewable without a login.   Go figure.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/19/2014 04:00 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

The website is now working.  I forgot to save the changes.

I am not branching out to more services.  Better for me to learn how to use
Google and whatever new stuff they have added.  I used Google Picasaweb for
years without any trouble.  The images I linked to were migrated to G+.  I
am guessing that I am looking at them logged in as me, and the URL is
different when others try to go there.  I need to figure out how to view G+
as not me.

http://gphangouts.com/googleplusurl.html

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think I gave the URL to view when viewed as me logged in as me.  I
haven't sorted out how to get the public URL.  I think it used to be
obvious, but I have lost the method :-(

This battery was purchased through Alibaba from China.  The cells are 18650
size LiFePO4.

I believe I saw in image of a Tesla pack opened up and it had multiple
thousands of these in it.  (I have head they use 6000 or 700 laptop cells)
  I am sorry I don't recall where I saw that.  Maybe EVTV?

Seems like welding is the only way to get the sort of reliability you need
if there are no threaded connections.   Clamping, as with funky old D cell
flashlights, is clearly not the way to go.

Yes it is a BMS placed inside the pack.  Then they duct taped and hot glued
their way to a reasonably presentable pack.

I did not build this myself - that is what I was wondering - if anyone here
has tried this sort of thing.  I really don't think it would be too
difficult once you knew the recipe.

Here is another link that might take you to an album of battery images:
https://plus.google.com/photos/100767276460953028406/albums/5857562724939978177?banner=pwa

My intention is that it be visible to anyone, and it says that is so, but I
may still be sharing the wrong URL.  I will put a few more images at the
website.


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:53 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 19 Aug 2014 at 16:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > This should be viewable by anyone
> > https://sites.google.com/site/michaeleross/misc
>
> This one works fine for me.  (I do have javascript enabled for Google; it
> might be required for this page.)
>
> Thanks for setting it up!  The two snipurl links said they were invalid.
>
> It's an interesting battery.  I take it that's some kind of BMS top right
> in
> the first photo?
>
> What kind of cells are they?  I mean what size, chemistry, brand?  Did you
> assemble the battery yourself?  How did you fasten the links?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Willie2 via EV]

On 08/19/2014 04:13 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 19 Aug 2014 at 15:48, Willie2 via EV wrote:


Please inform me if my Google+ page is not visible to all:
https://plus.google.com/102434734002949174273/posts

Perhaps one has to be logged on to Google?  I didn't think so.


  I had no trouble seeing your page, and I'm not logged in to Google.

When I place the cursor over the pictures, a link to "Willie McKernie's


Did I misspell my own name?  I'm not surprised.

Google+/Picasa's most attractive feature for me is that new photos taken 
with an Android device can be automagically uploaded whenever that 
device gets internet access.  Then, new photos can very easily be 
"shared".  Also, photos are first presented with modest resolution and 
the viewer can decide whether or not to look at higher resolutions.


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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Michael Ross via EV]

 summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Dennis Miles via EV]

You tube " eSamba " is a series of videos about converting a VW van it a
"Samba" which was a passenger version of the VW Vanagon. There are a large
number of videos abu a number of them are building a "TESLA Style" battery
pack. (TESLA uses 6831 individual cells !) Go to: http://youtu/be/esamba
 and that will get you in the stadium...

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> I think I gave the URL to view when viewed as me logged in as me.  I
> haven't sorted out how to get the public URL.  I think it used to be
> obvious, but I have lost the method :-(
>
> This battery was purchased through Alibaba from China.  The cells are 18650
> size LiFePO4.
>
> I believe I saw in image of a Tesla pack opened up and it had multiple
> thousands of these in it.  (I have head they use 6000 or 700 laptop cells)
>   I am sorry I don't recall where I saw that.  Maybe EVTV?
>
> Seems like welding is the only way to get the sort of reliability you need
> if there are no threaded connections.   Clamping, as with funky old D cell
> flashlights, is clearly not the way to go.
>
> Yes it is a BMS placed inside the pack.  Then they duct taped and hot glued
> their way to a reasonably presentable pack.
>
> I did not build this myself - that is what I was wondering - if anyone here
> has tried this sort of thing.  I really don't think it would be too
> difficult once you knew the recipe.
>
> Here is another link that might take you to an album of battery images:
>
> https://plus.google.com/photos/100767276460953028406/albums/5857562724939978177?banner=pwa
>
> My intention is that it be visible to anyone, and it says that is so, but I
> may still be sharing the wrong URL.  I will put a few more images at the
> website.
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:53 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> > On 19 Aug 2014 at 16:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >
> > > This should be viewable by anyone
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/michaeleross/misc
> >
> > This one works fine for me.  (I do have javascript enabled for Google; it
> > might be required for this page.)
> >
> > Thanks for setting it up!  The two snipurl links said they were invalid.
> >
> > It's an interesting battery.  I take it that's some kind of BMS top right
> > in
> > the first photo?
> >
> > What kind of cells are they?  I mean what size, chemistry, brand?  Did
> you
> > assemble the battery yourself?  How did you fasten the links?
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EVDL Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> > reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
> *Dalai Lama *
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
> With your one wild and precious life?
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 550-2430 Land
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Peter C. Thompson via EV]

There's a long build thread for this on DIYElectricCar including a 
lot of videos.


http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/1958-vw-bus-panel-1st-ev-80329.html?highlight=esamba

Cheers, Peter!

On 8/19/14, 3:30 PM, Dennis Miles via EV wrote:

You tube " eSamba " is a series of videos about converting a VW van it a
"Samba" which was a passenger version of the VW Vanagon. There are a large
number of videos abu a number of them are building a "TESLA Style" battery
pack. (TESLA uses 6831 individual cells !) Go to: http://youtu/be/esamba
  and that will get you in the stadium...

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:


I think I gave the URL to view when viewed as me logged in as me.  I
haven't sorted out how to get the public URL.  I think it used to be
obvious, but I have lost the method :-(

This battery was purchased through Alibaba from China.  The cells are 18650
size LiFePO4.

I believe I saw in image of a Tesla pack opened up and it had multiple
thousands of these in it.  (I have head they use 6000 or 700 laptop cells)
   I am sorry I don't recall where I saw that.  Maybe EVTV?

Seems like welding is the only way to get the sort of reliability you need
if there are no threaded connections.   Clamping, as with funky old D cell
flashlights, is clearly not the way to go.

Yes it is a BMS placed inside the pack.  Then they duct taped and hot glued
their way to a reasonably presentable pack.

I did not build this myself - that is what I was wondering - if anyone here
has tried this sort of thing.  I really don't think it would be too
difficult once you knew the recipe.

Here is another link that might take you to an album of battery images:

https://plus.google.com/photos/100767276460953028406/albums/5857562724939978177?banner=pwa

My intention is that it be visible to anyone, and it says that is so, but I
may still be sharing the wrong URL.  I will put a few more images at the
website.


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:53 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:


On 19 Aug 2014 at 16:10, Michael Ross via EV wrote:


This should be viewable by anyone
https://sites.google.com/site/michaeleross/misc

This one works fine for me.  (I do have javascript enabled for Google; it
might be required for this page.)

Thanks for setting it up!  The two snipurl links said they were invalid.

It's an interesting battery.  I take it that's some kind of BMS top right
in
the first photo?

What kind of cells are they?  I mean what size, chemistry, brand?  Did

you

assemble the battery yourself?  How did you fasten the links?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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--
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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-- next part -

Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

To take this to a traction pack, I would want to try a similar design
where strings of cells are spot welded in parallel for the desired
current load. As I understand it, you can put as many in parallel as you
want and control them with a single BMS unit.


Well... There are those that believe this, and it is certainly done.

However, think about failure modes: Sooner or later, a cell will fail. 
What happens if one of the cells in parallel shorts? All the rest will 
dump all their stored energy into that one shorted cell. That is very 
likely to result in a burst cell or even a fire. And packed like this, 
once one cell starts burning, it can set the rest on fire.


When laptop manufacturers connected their cells directly in parallel, 
there were some dramatic failures and fires. Since then, reputable 
manufacturers are using cells with *internal* fuses and safety devices. 
Hobbyists and el-cheapo manufacturers aren't likely to use such cells.


--
The principal defect in a storage battery is its modesty. It does not
spark, creak, groan, nor slow down under overload. It does not rotate.
It works where it is, and will silently work up to the point of
destruction without making any audible or visible signs of distress.
-- Electrical Review, 1902
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Is it easy to create exactly 10 amps?  (not rhetorical)
Don't many chargers vary a good bit depending on the load the work into?
In which case, you need to have a second instrument for the current
measurement, and it needs to be sufficiently accurate and steady.

I measure four wire resistance all the time for temperature measurements
using platinum RTDs and thermistors.  It is the only way to go for
accuracy.

My main point is to know and understand if your instrument is up to the
task.


If you need high precision, then you will indeed need good equipment.

However, if the goal is just to find bad/weak connections, then a 10% or 
even 20% measurement accuracy is sufficient. In most cases, the 
*difference* in resistance between connections is the important point.


For example, I'll use a battery charger that has a built-in ammeter. 
That ammeter is probably no better than 10% accuracy. I'll charge the 
pack as a whole, and quickly connect my meter probes across the posts at 
each end of my inter-cell jumpers, looking for any that have an 
unusually high resistance.


If I need higher precision, I also have a Simpson 1699 micro-ohmmeter. 
It's basically an accurate 1 amp current source, a DC amplifier that can 
read voltages down into the microvolts, and a meter with 6 ranges 
calibrated in milli-ohms.

--
The principal defect in a storage battery is its modesty. It does not
spark, creak, groan, nor slow down under overload. It does not rotate.
It works where it is, and will silently work up to the point of
destruction without making any audible or visible signs of distress.
-- Electrical Review, 1902
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Cor van de Water via EV]

My own pack charger, when plugged into a 110V 15A circuit, 

will chug away, starting at 12-13 Amps and over the course of hours,

mostly be doing some 11 Amps around 130-135V into the pack,

maxing out the circuit pretty effectively. When the pack starts to get

full and the (flooded) batteries go to 2.5V per cell, the current drops to

under 5A which will last another few hours till the charger times out.

The main charging period where the current is around 11A is more than

enough accurate to calmly measure all battery connections for any

excessive voltage drop, it does not make a difference whether the

current is 10 or 11 or 12 Amps. You want to detect a connection that

has way more resistance than the others, so as long as current stays

pretty stable, all you need to do is compare between connections to

see if there are outliers.

 

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com> 
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info 
<http://www.cvandewater.infom> 
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626



From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:20 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

 

Is it easy to create exactly 10 amps?  (not rhetorical)

Don't many chargers vary a good bit depending on the load the work into?  

In which case, you need to have a second instrument for the current 
measurement, and it needs to be sufficiently accurate and steady.

 

I measure four wire resistance all the time for temperature measurements using 
platinum RTDs and thermistors.  It is the only way to go for accuracy. 

 

My main point is to know and understand if your instrument is up to the task.

 

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
wrote:

It is not a problem to create a known current in the order of 10 Amps
either by using the existing charger on the vehicle or an external power 
supply. That produces a 1mV drop for a 0.1 Ohms resistance.
Since the measurement does not need to be extremely accurate,
you just want to verify that all connections are in the 0.1 mOhm range
and none are more than double that, you can suffice with pretty simple
instrumentation that allows you to distinguish between 1 and 2 mV, while you 
send that approx 10 Amps through the connection, either by actually charging
or with external means. You just need to take care to always probe on the same 
spot on the battery terminal (preferably as close as possible to the cell 
themselves, so the Alu or copper contact would be good if you can reach it, the 
alu nut around that contact would be the next best thing.
Read up on 4-point resistance measurement (Kelvin sensing) if you are
not familiar with how the sensing points will influence the measurement:
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_8/9.html


Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626  

​SNIP

-- 

Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, 
or should I help others gain happiness?  

Dalai Lama 

 

Tell me what it is you plan to do

With your one wild and precious life?

Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

 

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.

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<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> 

 

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.

Warren Buffet

 

Michael E. Ross

(919) 550-2430 Land

(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones>  Google Phone

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Ben Apollonio via EV]

True enough, but if a 200Ah cell fails shorted, it still has 200Ah to dump all 
by itself, which is likely to be equally catastrophic.  I think the probability 
of occurrence is higher with 200 1Ah cells than with 1 200Ah cell, but the end 
result is the same.

On the other hand, if you DO take precautions to isolate the parallel cells in 
a fault, you can limit the total energy released to the amount stored in a 
single cell (or a handful of small cells).  If I recall correctly, Tesla does 
this, including firewalls between modules, which is how they can get away with 
using 1000's of cells in a single pack.

-Ben

On Aug 19, 2014, at 7:32 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> To take this to a traction pack, I would want to try a similar design
>> where strings of cells are spot welded in parallel for the desired
>> current load. As I understand it, you can put as many in parallel as you
>> want and control them with a single BMS unit.
> 
> Well... There are those that believe this, and it is certainly done.
> 
> However, think about failure modes: Sooner or later, a cell will fail. What 
> happens if one of the cells in parallel shorts? All the rest will dump all 
> their stored energy into that one shorted cell. That is very likely to result 
> in a burst cell or even a fire. And packed like this, once one cell starts 
> burning, it can set the rest on fire.
> 
> When laptop manufacturers connected their cells directly in parallel, there 
> were some dramatic failures and fires. Since then, reputable manufacturers 
> are using cells with *internal* fuses and safety devices. Hobbyists and 
> el-cheapo manufacturers aren't likely to use such cells.
> 
> -- 
> The principal defect in a storage battery is its modesty. It does not
> spark, creak, groan, nor slow down under overload. It does not rotate.
> It works where it is, and will silently work up to the point of
> destruction without making any audible or visible signs of distress.
>   -- Electrical Review, 1902
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Jay Summet via EV]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 08/19/2014 07:54 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV wrote:
> True enough, but if a 200Ah cell fails shorted, it still has 200Ah
> to dump all by itself, which is likely to be equally catastrophic.
> I think the probability of occurrence is higher with 200 1Ah cells
> than with 1 200Ah cell, but the end result is the same.
> 
> On the other hand, if you DO take precautions to isolate the
> parallel cells in a fault, you can limit the total energy released
> to the amount stored in a single cell (or a handful of small
> cells).  If I recall correctly, Tesla does this, including
> firewalls between modules, which is how they can get away with
> using 1000's of cells in a single pack.
> 
> -Ben

The eSamba guy is using a piece of "fuse wire" to each cell, so that
if a single cell shorts out, the fuse wire blows. I believe the
assumption is that the then isolated cell won't be able to start
ITSELF on fire if it is not drawing current from all the other
parallel cells  I'm not sure if that is actually the case or not

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Dennis Miles via EV]

The cells in the TESLA pack are a group in parallel then the parallel
groups are wired in series for the desired voltage, The key to pack
survival when a cell fails is a fusible link (Correctly sized short length
of wire) in series with each and every cell then any malfunctioning cell is
isolated when the link opens. (Reducing pack capacity about 2%.)

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
>> To take this to a traction pack, I would want to try a similar design
>> where strings of cells are spot welded in parallel for the desired
>> current load. As I understand it, you can put as many in parallel as you
>> want and control them with a single BMS unit.
>>
>
> Well... There are those that believe this, and it is certainly done.
>
> However, think about failure modes: Sooner or later, a cell will fail.
> What happens if one of the cells in parallel shorts? All the rest will dump
> all their stored energy into that one shorted cell. That is very likely to
> result in a burst cell or even a fire. And packed like this, once one cell
> starts burning, it can set the rest on fire.
>
> When laptop manufacturers connected their cells directly in parallel,
> there were some dramatic failures and fires. Since then, reputable
> manufacturers are using cells with *internal* fuses and safety devices.
> Hobbyists and el-cheapo manufacturers aren't likely to use such cells.
>
> --
> The principal defect in a storage battery is its modesty. It does not
> spark, creak, groan, nor slow down under overload. It does not rotate.
> It works where it is, and will silently work up to the point of
> destruction without making any audible or visible signs of distress.
> -- Electrical Review, 1902
> --
> Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
>
> ___
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Peri Hartman via EV]

So, if you want individual fusible cells, then a bus bar on both 
terminals won't work.   One side can be spot welded but the other side 
needs the fuse wire - or something.  Not sure how that could be done in 
this model.  Does Tesla really have each cell fused?


Part of my idea is to make each module easy to connect and swap out, if 
needed.  Also easy to pack into a tray.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
To: "Lee Hart" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 19-Aug-14 5:29:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -


The cells in the TESLA pack are a group in parallel then the parallel
groups are wired in series for the desired voltage, The key to pack
survival when a cell fails is a fusible link (Correctly sized short 
length
of wire) in series with each and every cell then any malfunctioning 
cell is

isolated when the link opens. (Reducing pack capacity about 2%.)

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

* You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

* NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Lee Hart via EV  
wrote:



 Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

 To take this to a traction pack, I would want to try a similar 
design

 where strings of cells are spot welded in parallel for the desired
 current load. As I understand it, you can put as many in parallel as 
you

 want and control them with a single BMS unit.



 Well... There are those that believe this, and it is certainly done.

 However, think about failure modes: Sooner or later, a cell will 
fail.
 What happens if one of the cells in parallel shorts? All the rest 
will dump
 all their stored energy into that one shorted cell. That is very 
likely to
 result in a burst cell or even a fire. And packed like this, once one 
cell

 starts burning, it can set the rest on fire.

 When laptop manufacturers connected their cells directly in parallel,
 there were some dramatic failures and fires. Since then, reputable
 manufacturers are using cells with *internal* fuses and safety 
devices.
 Hobbyists and el-cheapo manufacturers aren't likely to use such 
cells.


 --
 The principal defect in a storage battery is its modesty. It does not
 spark, creak, groan, nor slow down under overload. It does not 
rotate.

 It works where it is, and will silently work up to the point of
 destruction without making any audible or visible signs of distress.
 -- Electrical Review, 1902
 --
 Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm

 ___
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Jay Summet via EV]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1



On 08/19/2014 09:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> So, if you want individual fusible cells, then a bus bar on both 
> terminals won't work.   One side can be spot welded but the other
> side needs the fuse wire - or something.  Not sure how that could
> be done in this model.  Does Tesla really have each cell fused?
> 
> Part of my idea is to make each module easy to connect and swap
> out, if needed.  Also easy to pack into a tray.
> 

Why not pressure fit?  Have a whole bunch of springs mounted on a
board spaced appropriately for your cells. You'd probably need a lot
of screws to hold the board flat (unless it was an especially thick
and rigid material).

You would still have to solder/weld a wire/fuse to each spring..but
you could do that at high temperatures without risking cell damage.

The contact/connection may not be as good as bolt on terminals, but
for 18650 cells you could probably get away with it without excessive
force. Flashlights do it all the time(I know, I know...lower
current...)

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Dennis Miles via EV]

Peri,  Watch the video, You Tube title is: " eSamba EP 29  TESLA style
fuses " The many parallel packs in series  depend upon each pack not having
multiple failures, one or two in each pack are no problem there are about
50 cells in each parallel group.  If a catastrophic failure should happen
and a cascade of the cell fuses blow, the car just stops and you get the
battery pack replaced under warranty the first 8 years or 100,000 miles.
(in a TESLA)

Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
<http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
<http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 9:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> So, if you want individual fusible cells, then a bus bar on both terminals
> won't work.   One side can be spot welded but the other side needs the fuse
> wire - or something.  Not sure how that could be done in this model.  Does
> Tesla really have each cell fused?
>
> Part of my idea is to make each module easy to connect and swap out, if
> needed.  Also easy to pack into a tray.
>
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Dennis Miles via EV" 
> To: "Lee Hart" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 19-Aug-14 5:29:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -
>
>  The cells in the TESLA pack are a group in parallel then the parallel
>> groups are wired in series for the desired voltage, The key to pack
>> survival when a cell fails is a fusible link (Correctly sized short length
>> of wire) in series with each and every cell then any malfunctioning cell
>> is
>> isolated when the link opens. (Reducing pack capacity about 2%.)
>>
>> Dennis Lee Miles
>>
>> (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*
>>
>> * Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.*
>>
>> *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*
>>
>> *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
>> intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*
>>
>> * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
>> <http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss> *
>>
>> * NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8
>> <http://youtu.%20be/Pz9-TZtySh8>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Lee Hart via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>>
>>>   To take this to a traction pack, I would want to try a similar design
>>>>  where strings of cells are spot welded in parallel for the desired
>>>>  current load. As I understand it, you can put as many in parallel as
>>>> you
>>>>  want and control them with a single BMS unit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>  Well... There are those that believe this, and it is certainly done.
>>>
>>>  However, think about failure modes: Sooner or later, a cell will fail.
>>>  What happens if one of the cells in parallel shorts? All the rest will
>>> dump
>>>  all their stored energy into that one shorted cell. That is very likely
>>> to
>>>  result in a burst cell or even a fire. And packed like this, once one
>>> cell
>>>  starts burning, it can set the rest on fire.
>>>
>>>  When laptop manufacturers connected their cells directly in parallel,
>>>  there were some dramatic failures and fires. Since then, reputable
>>>  manufacturers are using cells with *internal* fuses and safety devices.
>>>  Hobbyists and el-cheapo manufacturers aren't likely to use such cells.
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  The principal defect in a storage battery is its modesty. It does not
>>>  spark, creak, groan, nor slow down under overload. It does not rotate.
>>>  It works where it is, and will silently work up to the point of
>>>  destruction without making any audible or visible signs of distress.
>>>  -- Electrical Review, 1902
>>>  --
>>>  Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
>>>
>>>  ___
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>>>  http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>>>  For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (
>>> http

Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 19 Aug 2014 at 21:18, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

> The contact/connection may not be as good as bolt on terminals, but
> for 18650 cells you could probably get away with it without excessive
> force. Flashlights do it all the time...

Does anyone here have experience with the screw-terminal 38140 cells offered 
by Headway (and perhaps some of their less well known Chinese competitors)? 
Their vendors even offer complete kits with hardware for grouping and 
linking cells.

But then you might be falling back into the problems of loosening and 
corroding connections, I suppose.  

They also seem to be a bit more expensive per watt-hour than some other 
LiFePO4 cells, but that might be because I don't know where to look.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] CALB bolt terminals getting hot -

[Dennis Miles via EV]

Flashlights only have a current draw of half an amp. The 18650 cells are
typically used at FIVE amps. And I often have to shake my flashlights to
clean the contacts before they attain normal brightness. (That indicates
they a corroding.) About two years ago I recall seeing a spot-welding
system and strapping for the 18650 cells, the welder was only about $200
and for building a $7,000 to $10,000 pack, it would seem a reasonable price
to pay. I haven't searched for it yet but it had a video so searching on
You Tube for "spot weld batteries" might lead to a possible solution...


Dennis Lee Miles

(*evprofes...@evprofessor.com )*

* Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.*

*Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)*

*Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are
intelligent enough,  **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!*

*  You Tube Video link:  http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss
 *

*NEW You Tube Video link: *http://youtu. be/Pz9-TZtySh8



On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 10:35 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 19 Aug 2014 at 21:18, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
>
> > The contact/connection may not be as good as bolt on terminals, but
> > for 18650 cells you could probably get away with it without excessive
> > force. Flashlights do it all the time...
>
> Does anyone here have experience with the screw-terminal 38140 cells
> offered
> by Headway (and perhaps some of their less well known Chinese competitors)?
> Their vendors even offer complete kits with hardware for grouping and
> linking cells.
>
> But then you might be falling back into the problems of loosening and
> corroding connections, I suppose.
>
> They also seem to be a bit more expensive per watt-hour than some other
> LiFePO4 cells, but that might be because I don't know where to look.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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>
>
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UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)