[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My view is that the claims Sting makes for his CD > are false and misleading > especially to an audience new to this repertoire. Has anyone ever considered that for Sting to perform the music as many of us think he should - i.e. the same way we want to do it ourselves - would in fact be for him selling out - i.e. changing his style to please a particular set of people? Take it for what it is: Sting singing songs; songs that happen to be close to our collective heart, but songs none the less. I don't think anyone out there is going to be misled. People who like Sting are going to buy the album because its a Sting album, NOT because its a John Dowland album to be carefully listened to in order to carefully appreciate the minute subtleties of this heretofore unknown renaissance composer's philosophy of life. As for the claims of HIPper than HIP, we're the only ones who care at all. Classical musicians (which in this case includes us) are the only ones who think of CDs as being classified by composer or genre anyway. For instance, have you ever seen a Madonna ablum entitled, "Works Composed by Contemporary Songwriters Who's Names are Relatively Unknown Outside the Music Business?" Nope, its just the new Madonna album which is going to sell even if she sings "Twinkle, twinkle little star." For what its worth, I'm glad Sting's doing something more worthwhile. Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 04:48:49 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Andrew Lawrence-King has been sticking his double-harp everywhere he could, > > including Biber. > Go bark up that tree. > RT > I am not an expert on historical harps and maybe a double-harp is not the historically correct instrument. But I must say that ALK has a feeling for ensemble playing that is totally lacking on the Dowland CD. This is probably caused mostly due to the recording method, which from videos seems to have been a typical rock set-up with them seperated acoustically. The TV performances are much better, probably due to this. In the end, I as it seems most of the listeners who do not have a personal connection to the project or are sting fans, find the CD interesting before they hear it, but in the end musically unsatisfying. In a couple of months the media will have forgotten about it and in the end as I have said I don't think this CD will bring the big lute boom (sadly). But maybe that is good because if it means we have to return to the sort of 19th century view of music history that Sting favours. I personally think that the basis of any approach that claims, as sting does to be "closer than how anybody else to how the music would have sounded" need to be based on more serious research. If I was so interested in how the music sounded then maybe a single strung strung lute, vocal compression, digital reverb and such close miking are not the answer. In the end I would never say that my approach is closer than what anybody else has done. My view is that the claims Sting makes for his CD are false and misleading especially to an audience new to this repertoire. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
> > Nobody here (apart from Sting) is claiming to have the ultimate way. > > I think if I say a single strung archlute is the wrong instrument for > performing this music in a HIP way, then until someone can give me > evidence that such > an instrument existed then I am not being elitest or purist. > > Mark Andrew Lawrence-King has been sticking his double-harp everywhere he could, including Biber. Go bark up that tree. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
At 06:36 AM 10/10/2006, Francesco Tribioli wrote: >I've decided: I'll remove all my octaves, and double strings, and gut >strings. I'll get an archlute and will try the pop lutenist career. Perhaps >Mark and me could found a new group named "The HIP Police" and the >repertoire will be Sting music arranged for two archlutes. RT, if you are >clever we might even allow you to play the bass line on your own axe ;^))) Actually, our lamented friend Dawn Culbertson, who passed away far too young, used to do Iggy Pop songs and other such on the lute. It wasn't a schtick, she loved the music and she loved the lute. Well, she knew it had a funny side, clearly, but she was also deeply serious about it. Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
> Those who claim to know what is "authentic," and who see themselves >> as the sole arbiters of taste in early music, would do well to >> consider what happened the last time their oh-so-precious historical >> principles were applied for real What happened was that the lute held a dominant position in European music for two or three centuries. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 13:40:02 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Actually I already suggested to my Duo-Partner to start an action "A > tribute to Sting" for lutenists and to perform hits by Police and Sting on > Lute(s). > > I would offer to collect all contributions :) > > Best wishes > Thomas Sorry not interested in this repertoire is too old fashioned :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Actually I already suggested to my Duo-Partner to start an action "A tribute to Sting" for lutenists and to perform hits by Police and Sting on Lute(s). I would offer to collect all contributions :) Best wishes Thomas >> Yesterday Sting was neither off tune nor out of tempo. >> RT >Pheewww! What a relief. > >I've decided: I'll remove all my octaves, and double strings, and gut >strings. I'll get an archlute and will try the pop lutenist career. Perhaps >Mark and me could found a new group named "The HIP Police" and the >repertoire will be Sting music arranged for two archlutes. RT, if you are >clever we might even allow you to play the bass line on your own axe ;^))) > >Francesco > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
- Original Message - From: "David Rastall" :> Those who claim to know what is "authentic," and who see themselves > as the sole arbiters of taste in early music, would do well to > consider what happened the last time their oh-so-precious historical > principles were applied for real, back in the days when they weren't > history, when the "old ones" were still the current ones: the lute > died. We don't want it to die again. I think the lute died for the same reason all the soft voiced insturments died, i.e. the plucked keyboards (spinets, clavichords, harpsichords, etc), the violas da gamba, and at the same time. When the concert hall was invented in the early 18th century, the idea was to put as many rear ends in as many seats as possible. Thus the loud voiced instruments fell into favor. I'm not sure I know what these "oh-so-precious historical principles" are that killed the lute. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Yesterday Sting was neither off tune nor out of tempo. RT - Original Message - From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:54 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting >> ...To sing out of tune or out of tempo is wrong, HIP or >> not HIP. >> >> >> To play outside an accepted temperament is wrong?, or to use > One thing is to use a different temperament, one thing is to be out of > tune > in the chosen temperament. Something like a "temperament inegal" was never > invented 8^)) > >> "notes inegal" at your own personal discretion is wrong? >> Maybe, maybe not. > "Notes inegal" doesn't absolutely mean out of tempo. All the contrary, > they > reinforce the beat and give more impulse to the rhythm if compared with > equal notes. > >> music is. I'm not sure this will be a good service to >> the lute world and >> that the curiosity it will spin in some of the >> listeners will be prevalent. >> >> >> Well, okay, I've purposely avoided giving my opinion of >> Sting's Dowland, because I feel that it's not relevant to >> these discussions. Regarding "distorted ideas," can you say >> for sure that the Elizabethans had the same ideas on vocal >> technique, lute technique or instrumentation as we do? Maybe > Let me reverse the question. Do you think that Elizabethan professional > singers, which were paid very very much only to sing and play music, would > be so imprecise and lazy? > >> they did sound just like our CD heroines and heroes of today, >> and maybe they didn't. It's an open question. Always will be. > Sure, but there are, in my opinion, some limits. Actually we know > something > about the way they played and sang even if of course no one was there. We > have original instruments and we have a good guess about the stringing, we > have treatises about vocality, for example Caccini, which give many hints > about interpretation. Some things work only with a particular kind of > vocality and with a good enough preparation. I don't believe that Sting > has > the necessary vocal ability to do for example a trillo as Caccini > suggests. > Yes, Caccini is Italian and we are talking of England, but musicians > travelled and technical novelty and fashions with them and as I said the > courtly singers were highly trained musicians. Said this, perhaps in some > English country manor there might surely have been some man that may have > sang as Sting sings. Perhaps he was considered a bad singer as well I > think > we should consider Sting in this recording (I really love the other Sting > music by the way). If we don't admit there are these (quite broad) limits, > we could play the galute as I said. All in all could you exclude that some > maker in the Renaissance ever built a galute like instrument? Perhaps > someone has played something of similar and so, if we do now, we can claim > to be HIP. Everything would be fine and could be sold as the true and > right > way to perform ancient music. I've written "distorted ideas" because Sting > said that his particular way to sing and play this music, which is > actually > quite bad under many musical respects and also quite different from what > we > know of historical performance, is the real and right way to do it. > > All the best > > Francesco > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Now, thanks to Sting, lutenists know how jazz musicians have felt for years.After the Modern Jazz Quartet retired, Milt Jackson was interviewed, and during the interview he complained, "We worked for twenty years and made what a kid who's played guitar for a month and knows six chords makes in a night." Later during an interview John Lewis was asked about Milt Jackson's remark. He said, "I thought we made a good living. That's show business. We're musicians, not show people." Sting is show business. Gary - Original Message - From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 2:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting > > I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in > > Germany have already exceeded 30. > > RT > There is an incredible amount of advertising of this CD here in Italy too. > Every morning after the radio news there is an extract of Come again sang by > Sting with the advise of buying the CD "in the best CD shops". > This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music > and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No one knows > who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music is but > the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as this CD > like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs recorded by > specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is > something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not the > music. > > Francesco > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 10/7/2006 > >
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 03:26:33 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Not much HIP there, but it sure was hip. > > Eugene > I agree I have the box set with the "King Henry's Madrigal." Probably a Jethro Tull plays Dowland, without absolutely any attempt at being authentic would be better listening than Sting half-baked approach and in the end get more people interested in the music. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
- Original Message - From: Rob Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, October 9, 2006 5:51 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting > David, > > Not mention Jethro Tull doing the BWV 996 Bouree' on flute. > > Now, that's interpretation! Jethro Tull, of course, is a rock band and not a flutists. Even more exciting for me was their later, rather heavy, progressive rock instrumental setting of Henry VIII's "Pastyme with good companye" as "King Henry's Madrigal." Not much HIP there, but it sure was hip. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Hello Stephen, > > I'm not certain what you meant by that last statement. If > you mean that no curiosity will be generated because of the > 'bad sound/music', or maybe you meant that less curiosity > will be generated than if the sound/music was 'good': I will > politely disagree. What I wanted to say is that I'm not sure that the balance between the positive aspect of all this (the curiosity for the Dowland music that surely this CD will produce in some listeners) and the negative aspect (what I called the "distorted idea" it gives of ancient music) is toward the positive side. > It's been said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity." > > > If Sting arouses curiosity, it will mostly be curiosity among > people who have never heard of the lute. Some of those > people will be intrigued enough to search for more "lute" > music, either in music shops or on the internet. What will > they find? More music exactly like what Sting has done? Or > something closer to what people on this list consider > authentic "lute" music. Yes, or they might think that it sounds very bad and will never buy a lute CD anymore. Or they might be so much used to that way of performing this music to think that is the real way to do and will reject "authentic lute music" as boring and uninspiring. If this CD sells very well, as it seems, there might be some other rock musician that may follow Sting in this path (I don't think so but, who knows, money is money) and that way of performing might be the way people will expect for this music. > I was intrigued with the "lute" when I heard the Lachrimae > Antiquae cut from Dances of Dowland by Julian Bream, > Lutenist. I recorded the LP from my local public library > onto cassette tape. I didn't copy the notes on the > recording's jacket, so I don't know exactly what instrument > Mr Bream was playing. I listened the lute the first time through the Ragossnig LPs. Played with the nails I guess and not very HIP for what we know now but at the time very good and evocative. > Listening to the cassette tape now, I'm wondering if Mr Bream > was playing with nails, on nylon strings, on a guitar in lute > tuning. > Not very HIP to lutenists if that is indeed the case. Or > maybe his playing was miked to closely. Who knows? > > But it was Mr Bream's recording (and his Lute Music of > Dowland recording, also copied to cassette tape from a public > library LP) that brought me to the lute (over a decade later > after making those cassette recordings) when I decided to > return to 'personal' music (making music by and for myself). > I researched the lute on the internet and found this list, > among other resources. That's all right, but in any case you had access to very good performance and to a very good and inspiring musician. Maybe the instrument wasn't right but the music was played very well. > I'm now playing a Renaissance G Lute, double gut strung in > unison on 1, 2, and 3, double gut strung octave on 4, 5, and > 6, in quarter comma meantone temperament, with A=415Hz, and > thumb out. Quite a different sound from Mr Bream's recordings. > > Thanks to Mr Bream, my soul is singing again. No one else > may ever hear me play, but I don't care. I have come home to > the lute and it's mellow, intimate sound. > > You can be certain that people hearing Sting's CD will be > visiting this list at some time. > > Perhaps strongly critiquing Sting will discourage these > curious searchers from the lute and the lute community. > Perhaps it would be wiser to welcome Sting's efforts, welcome > the publicity, and most certainly welcome the curious searchers. Who knows... It might be and I don't pretend to be right. We will see. Best regards, Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
David, Not mention Jethro Tull doing the BWV 996 Bouree' on flute. Now, that's interpretation! Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:45 PM To: Howard Posner Cc: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting On Oct 9, 2006, at 3:34 PM, Howard Posner wrote: > That's too bad. You missed Ronn and Mick Jagger doing Ferrabosco. Uh, which Ronn Wood that be...??? Hah! Sir Mick, accompanied on period instruments by master Ronnie and master Keith, wth master Charles beating out the tactus. But, wait a minute...don't we already have that? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 3:34 PM, Howard Posner wrote: > That's too bad. You missed Ronn and Mick Jagger doing Ferrabosco. Uh, which Ronn Wood that be...??? Hah! Sir Mick, accompanied on period instruments by master Ronnie and master Keith, wth master Charles beating out the tactus. But, wait a minute...don't we already have that? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Think yourselves lucky, folks - tonight on French TV they had a whole show of variety stars singing opera classics. I just couldn't find the on button To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Robert Margo wrote: > Actually, Daniel, what I would like to hear about is the McFarlane > workshop, > which I very much wanted to attend but couldn't get away for. That's too bad. You missed Ronn and Mick Jagger doing Ferrabosco. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Actually, Daniel, what I would like to hear about is the McFarlane workshop, which I very much wanted to attend but couldn't get away for. Robert Margo On 10/9/06, Daniel Shoskes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> > >> Art is art and artists shouldn't be ranked like world tennis players. > >> Nevertheless I don't think it is too unreasonable to at least > >> think in > >> terms of broad bands of technical and artistic ability. No need to > >> quibble about specifics, but there is definitely an "A" list that > >> includes people like POD, McFarlane, Hoppy, Satoh, Lindberg, Barto, > >> Stubbs and North. > > > > I must say that I find the "A" list quite arbitrary and unbalanced > > for my > > own taste, but if it is based on personal perception and values, > > I'm ok with > > that. > > > Wow, I thought at least my A list would be non-controversial. Shows > that I may need exposure to more diverse opinions. > > > > > > > The way you put it makes it difficult to answer... > > I'll place Edin in the "A" list, but probably wouldn't take as a > > parameter > > these two recordings. > > His live performances are of a much higher level that what he shows > > on the > > cds. > > In that case, he wouldn't be the first performer to have lousy > recordings but sound better in person and I reserve all further > judgement of his skills, outside the evidence of these 2 CD's, until > I have the pleasure of hearing him live myself. > > Finally, yesterday as part of a weekend lute workshop with Ronn > McFarlane at my home, I performed in the student concert with an > amateur soprano doing Dowland (If my complaints..., from the third > book of Sting) and Campion. If anyone would enjoy the Schadenfreude > of ripping my performance to shreds (leave the singer out of this!!!) > I would be glad to send them an mp3 off list. > > DS > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
>> >> Art is art and artists shouldn't be ranked like world tennis players. >> Nevertheless I don't think it is too unreasonable to at least >> think in >> terms of broad bands of technical and artistic ability. No need to >> quibble about specifics, but there is definitely an "A" list that >> includes people like POD, McFarlane, Hoppy, Satoh, Lindberg, Barto, >> Stubbs and North. > > I must say that I find the "A" list quite arbitrary and unbalanced > for my > own taste, but if it is based on personal perception and values, > I'm ok with > that. > Wow, I thought at least my A list would be non-controversial. Shows that I may need exposure to more diverse opinions. > > > The way you put it makes it difficult to answer... > I'll place Edin in the "A" list, but probably wouldn't take as a > parameter > these two recordings. > His live performances are of a much higher level that what he shows > on the > cds. In that case, he wouldn't be the first performer to have lousy recordings but sound better in person and I reserve all further judgement of his skills, outside the evidence of these 2 CD's, until I have the pleasure of hearing him live myself. Finally, yesterday as part of a weekend lute workshop with Ronn McFarlane at my home, I performed in the student concert with an amateur soprano doing Dowland (If my complaints..., from the third book of Sting) and Campion. If anyone would enjoy the Schadenfreude of ripping my performance to shreds (leave the singer out of this!!!) I would be glad to send them an mp3 off list. DS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Francesco Tribioli wrote: > ...To sing out of tune or out of tempo is wrong, HIP or > not HIP. To play outside an accepted temperament is wrong?, or to use "notes inegal" at your own personal discretion is wrong? Maybe, maybe not. > The point is that he is bringing to a wide audience music that in > my opinion > sounds bad because it's badly performed, with some sort of hybrid > instruments and hybrid technique and poor vocal technique. As he > has access > to a lot more people than any of the professional lutenists in the > world, > all those people listening at his CD will get a distorted idea of > what early > music is. I'm not sure this will be a good service to the lute > world and > that the curiosity it will spin in some of the listeners will be > prevalent. Well, okay, I've purposely avoided giving my opinion of Sting's Dowland, because I feel that it's not relevant to these discussions. Regarding "distorted ideas," can you say for sure that the Elizabethans had the same ideas on vocal technique, lute technique or instrumentation as we do? Maybe they did sound just like our CD heroines and heroes of today, and maybe they didn't. It's an open question. Always will be. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Hi Daniel, > >> >> Edin is an specialized lutenist (one of the best around, I should add), >> ... >> > Ariel: I wish Edin, the CD and any spill off into the lute community at > large great financial and artistic success. But I have to say that your > comment really gets under my skin. Do you mean that Edin is tops at his > published specialty (Bach and Britten on an archlute)? Then I would > completely agree. Do you honestly believe however that he is one of the > best professional lutenists around or at least a top Dowland interpreter? > If so, do you have any criteria other than friendship? I do believe that Edin is one of the best lute players today, and not necessary a Dowland expert. I heard him playing many different times, and I don't think friendship is the main criteria here, but of course feel free to thing the opposite. I love the way he plays Weiss, Zamboni, and Bach, for instances. For other music, I'd go for other players, I guess. In any case, Daniel, don't take my words so personally. I'm a professional player like many other on the list, and my taste and criteria do not have to be shared by anyone else. I never meant to disqualify other people, obviously. I just gave my opinion on Edin's playing. > > Art is art and artists shouldn't be ranked like world tennis players. > Nevertheless I don't think it is too unreasonable to at least think in > terms of broad bands of technical and artistic ability. No need to > quibble about specifics, but there is definitely an "A" list that > includes people like POD, McFarlane, Hoppy, Satoh, Lindberg, Barto, > Stubbs and North. I must say that I find the "A" list quite arbitrary and unbalanced for my own taste, but if it is based on personal perception and values, I'm ok with that. There is another top group who aren't quite as well > known or broadly recorded but whose recordings really impress me, like > Wilson, Eguez, Held, and Lislevand. Same as in "A", to be honest. There are others whom I have > heard in person and on the occasional recording that also play at a very > high level like Richard Stone, Andrew Maginley, David Dolata, Scott > Pauley, Lucas Harris, amongst others. Of course everyone on the lutelist > will have a different personal preference list, and I know that Roman can > produce a list of people whose names I have never heard of and whose > names would yield extremely high Scrabble scores whom I have never heard > play but I am sure are very talented. The Scrabble thing is good! ; =) I guess I'm one of Roman's list. > > Nevertheless, do you believe that based on his 2 recordings, Edin's > technical and artistic levels exceed those of the arbitrary and highly > personal list I just came up with? > The way you put it makes it difficult to answer... I'll place Edin in the "A" list, but probably wouldn't take as a parameter these two recordings. His live performances are of a much higher level that what he shows on the cds. Of course, you may not like him. Some people consider some players to be simply amazing, while many other find them awful. This is quite obvious, and that very same thin thing applies to Edin's job. If Edin's thing wasn't as successful, we wouldn't be talking on the same terms, I'm sure. Just in case, I have my own musical life (although not with pop stars) and I'm Edin's friend as well as I'm Mascardi or Egüez friend. I have no deeper reasons or motivations to defend him. Saludos, A To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 5:47 AM, ariel abramovich wrote: > > Edin is an specialized lutenist (one of the best around, I should > add), ... > Ariel: I wish Edin, the CD and any spill off into the lute community at large great financial and artistic success. But I have to say that your comment really gets under my skin. Do you mean that Edin is tops at his published specialty (Bach and Britten on an archlute)? Then I would completely agree. Do you honestly believe however that he is one of the best professional lutenists around or at least a top Dowland interpreter? If so, do you have any criteria other than friendship? Art is art and artists shouldn't be ranked like world tennis players. Nevertheless I don't think it is too unreasonable to at least think in terms of broad bands of technical and artistic ability. No need to quibble about specifics, but there is definitely an "A" list that includes people like POD, McFarlane, Hoppy, Satoh, Lindberg, Barto, Stubbs and North. There is another top group who aren't quite as well known or broadly recorded but whose recordings really impress me, like Wilson, Eguez, Held, and Lislevand. There are others whom I have heard in person and on the occasional recording that also play at a very high level like Richard Stone, Andrew Maginley, David Dolata, Scott Pauley, Lucas Harris, amongst others. Of course everyone on the lutelist will have a different personal preference list, and I know that Roman can produce a list of people whose names I have never heard of and whose names would yield extremely high Scrabble scores whom I have never heard play but I am sure are very talented. Nevertheless, do you believe that based on his 2 recordings, Edin's technical and artistic levels exceed those of the arbitrary and highly personal list I just came up with? DS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Monday 09 October 2006 9:28 am, you wrote: > The point is that he is bringing to a wide audience music that in > my opinion sounds bad because it's badly performed, with some sort > of hybrid instruments and hybrid technique and poor vocal > technique. As he has access to a lot more people than any of the > professional lutenists in the world, all those people listening at > his CD will get a distorted idea of what early music is. I'm not > sure this will be a good service to the lute world and that the > curiosity it will spin in some of the listeners will be prevalent. Hello Francesco, I'm not certain what you meant by that last statement. If you mean that no curiosity will be generated because of the 'bad sound/music', or maybe you meant that less curiosity will be generated than if the sound/music was 'good': I will politely disagree. It's been said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity." If Sting arouses curiosity, it will mostly be curiosity among people who have never heard of the lute. Some of those people will be intrigued enough to search for more "lute" music, either in music shops or on the internet. What will they find? More music exactly like what Sting has done? Or something closer to what people on this list consider authentic "lute" music. I was intrigued with the "lute" when I heard the Lachrimae Antiquae cut from Dances of Dowland by Julian Bream, Lutenist. I recorded the LP from my local public library onto cassette tape. I didn't copy the notes on the recording's jacket, so I don't know exactly what instrument Mr Bream was playing. Listening to the cassette tape now, I'm wondering if Mr Bream was playing with nails, on nylon strings, on a guitar in lute tuning. Not very HIP to lutenists if that is indeed the case. Or maybe his playing was miked to closely. Who knows? But it was Mr Bream's recording (and his Lute Music of Dowland recording, also copied to cassette tape from a public library LP) that brought me to the lute (over a decade later after making those cassette recordings) when I decided to return to 'personal' music (making music by and for myself). I researched the lute on the internet and found this list, among other resources. I'm now playing a Renaissance G Lute, double gut strung in unison on 1, 2, and 3, double gut strung octave on 4, 5, and 6, in quarter comma meantone temperament, with A=415Hz, and thumb out. Quite a different sound from Mr Bream's recordings. Thanks to Mr Bream, my soul is singing again. No one else may ever hear me play, but I don't care. I have come home to the lute and it's mellow, intimate sound. You can be certain that people hearing Sting's CD will be visiting this list at some time. Perhaps strongly critiquing Sting will discourage these curious searchers from the lute and the lute community. Perhaps it would be wiser to welcome Sting's efforts, welcome the publicity, and most certainly welcome the curious searchers. Kind Regards, "The Other" Stephen Stubbs Champaign, IL US To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote > Could you please provide some specific examples? I recall reading > such discussions back when the term was "authentic music" and people > really went overboard, but I haven't seen these types of quotes more > recently from HIP writers in magazines such as EMA. Well, maybe I'm just living in the past. God knows, in the lute community I certainly would be in good company! DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 9:18 AM, David Rastall wrote: > > > I'll tell you another interesting phenomenon. The HIP purists in the > early-music community, who set themselves above the commercial > mainstream believing in effect that only others from their particular > world are competent to critique what they do, are nevertheless very > quick to stand in judgement over what goes on in the commercial > mainstream when they think that their own blinkered little world may > be affected by it in some way. Could you please provide some specific examples? I recall reading such discussions back when the term was "authentic music" and people really went overboard, but I haven't seen these types of quotes more recently from HIP writers in magazines such as EMA. DS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Joe, As someone else pointed out, Nigel does both of the first two. I don't know about a true first course, but he did actually record with a NINE-course lute, as Dowland called for. I think it _may_ have had a double chanterelle. But he has no qualms using nylgut. Chris --- Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just a question about how far the "hip" people go: > Does anyone play Dowland > using Thumb-out technique (as he seems to have > favored) or with unison > stringing on their lutes (as he seems to have > favored) Or with double > chanterelles (as was apparently the fashion re. "The > Schoole of Musicke")? > > > Joseph Mayes > > > On 10/9/06 8:35 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 14:22:20 > Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > > >> become > >> something less than beautiful? > > > > when divisions are played like the Can she excuse > divisions on the sting CD. > > Sounds like they were played with a knife and fork > and the speed varying with > > the ability to play a particular passage. > > > > I listen to the radio performance yesterday with a > few friends and the whole > > room burst into laughter at the point. > > > > That would be a nasty comment, if it were an > amateur player, but considering > > he is supposed to be a specialist player, you tend > to ask, who gives people > > these titles. I am sorry but POD can play that > fast and it still sounds like > > music. > > > > Mark > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 16:18:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I'm not sure if that's HIP > or just self-indulgence. A little of both, I guess For all the poking fun at sting & co I think all this HIP paranoia is even more amusing. Nobody here (apart from Sting) is claiming to have the ultimate way. I think if I say a single strung archlute is the wrong instrument for performing this music in a HIP way, then until someone can give me evidence that such an instrument existed then I am not being elitest or purist. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
> the modern world. Otherwise, what is the point of the > 20th-century lute revival? Simply to amass information for Passing over your easy irony and attacks to the HIP police 8^), in my opinion, the point is to play music in a way that is the closest possible to the way it might have sounded, for a number of reasons related to music of course, not to some kind of blind decision. Otherwise it would be pointless to try to understand how the ancient lutenists played, to try to use the strings they used and so on. Let's pick up a galute, amplify it and go around saying it's a lute and that what we are playing is lute music. If this is ok for you, ok then, there is no reason to discuss anymore. What is the point of the 20th century revival of gamba? Or of the baroque oboe when there is the modern one which is much more in tune? Or traversiere or any other of the "ancient" instruments. Do you think that the players of these instruments are so worried about the survival of them? I don't think so, they simply play them trying to follow the original practice and try to do it well and this is the best guarantee of their survival. It seems to me there is a sort of feeling of inferiority in the lute world that doesn't seem to belong to other instrument players, as if we should always apologize or justify us for playing an ancient instrument with its own technique. It seems that to play the "old" way and the "old" lute music in a decent way would be the death of the lute. See, if this is true and really the survival of the lute is something that cares to him, why Sting & C. didn't *compose* new music for it? It would have been a wonderful idea and really a way to promote the instrument without any need to sell for "authentic" and "the right way" something that is nothing different than a bad performance of ancient music. > its own sake? Or satisfy the whims of a few heads-in- > the-sand purists? Perhaps, but if Sting can bring the lute About the head in the sand I would say that if one thinks that the Sting CD is well performed than really he has the head in the sand as his hears seem to work so and so... To sing out of tune or out of tempo is wrong, HIP or not HIP. > to a wider audience than we can, then he has succeeded where > we have failed. The point is that he is bringing to a wide audience music that in my opinion sounds bad because it's badly performed, with some sort of hybrid instruments and hybrid technique and poor vocal technique. As he has access to a lot more people than any of the professional lutenists in the world, all those people listening at his CD will get a distorted idea of what early music is. I'm not sure this will be a good service to the lute world and that the curiosity it will spin in some of the listeners will be prevalent. Taco said: > As long as there is a niche for a group of people sharing their sensitivity for a better dowland performance or a 'slow food' restaurant, I really don't mind. and me too. 8^) All the best Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 8:51 AM, Joseph Mayes wrote: > Just a question about how far the "hip" people go: Does anyone play > Dowland > using Thumb-out technique (as he seems to have favored) or with unison > stringing on their lutes (as he seems to have favored) Or with double > chanterelles (as was apparently the fashion re. "The Schoole of > Musicke")? Double *gut* chanterelles at that! I do play my 10-course thumb-out occasionally. Thumb-under gives me a better tone, but thumb-out gives me better articulation. So when I'm in a mood to make Dowland sound like renaissance music I'll play thumb-under, and when I feel like playing him with a more Baroque flavor, I'll go for the thumb-out sound. I'm not sure if that's HIP or just self-indulgence. A little of both, I guess. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 15:20:49 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > The HIP purists Are you talking about sting here - the man with "the normal" voice or maybe Edin who says they ONLY uses instruments based on historical models. It seems very important fro them to be doing the "right thing" I do not think what "hip" players do is always the only answer and in the end there are always many grey areas. Sting and Edin are in fact quite open to take their modern approach. What they are doing is cross-over and if you are into that thing, have fun and enjoy. I just find it amusing that they make claims of "authenticity" which are more absurd than anything I have ever heard from "hip" players. Don't forget we are talking about Sting, the man who dissaproves of almost all of modern music. I ask myself, who is living in the past and who is a purist ? Have any of you had a look at sting.com, a quote from the masters words are posted each day the "Sting quote of the day" Today was a real thigh slapper "Music is its own reward. I don't measure my success and happiness by sales figures. I could, but I don't. I never fret if one record didn't sell as well as the last one. I'm nourished by playing music. It's my route to spirituality." The best bit is "I could, but I don't." Any of you who have seen the TV series The office, will recognise the David Brent quality of this comment. wishes Mark "To be Ozzie Osbourne, it's not so bad. It could be worse. I could be Sting." -Ozzie Osbourne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 9, 2006, at 5:03 AM, Francesco Tribioli wrote: > This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music > and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No > one knows > who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music > is but > the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as > this CD > like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs > recorded by > specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is > something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not > the music. I'll tell you another interesting phenomenon. The HIP purists in the early-music community, who set themselves above the commercial mainstream believing in effect that only others from their particular world are competent to critique what they do, are nevertheless very quick to stand in judgement over what goes on in the commercial mainstream when they think that their own blinkered little world may be affected by it in some way. Those who claim to know what is "authentic," and who see themselves as the sole arbiters of taste in early music, would do well to consider what happened the last time their oh-so-precious historical principles were applied for real, back in the days when they weren't history, when the "old ones" were still the current ones: the lute died. We don't want it to die again. Poke fun at Sting if you want to, but consider that you might not hear that question, "what's a lute?" quite so often any more. I have a great deal of respect and love for the lute, and I recognize the value of all the research that has been done in order to bring it back from the dead. But I also feel that it is inevitable that we are bound to re-invent the lute in the modern world. Otherwise, what is the point of the 20th-century lute revival? Simply to amass information for its own sake? Or satisfy the whims of a few heads-in- the-sand purists? Perhaps, but if Sting can bring the lute to a wider audience than we can, then he has succeeded where we have failed. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
I thinkif my memory serves me correctly- that later in life - Dowland did play thumb out. But how about Paul O'dette playing theorbo and baroque lute thumb under?(this is based on second hand sightings) although I did see him years back play theorbo thumb under. You know, after listening to the Sting thing on the BBC I listened to the Early Music Show - they had some stuff on from the Brighton Early Music Festival. A group did some..ah hem.. pop tunes. Good Lord! Rolf L.'s group's new cd does some interesting things with the 'New Music" ..one of the tunes sounds like a bebop tune! Gotta goI'm arranging some "Police" tunes for broken consort - I'm kinda hesitant about adding vocals - but - there's Sting's vocal style and nuances to "copy" I hope the performance will be hip enough. SS --- Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just a question about how far the "hip" people go: > Does anyone play Dowland > using Thumb-out technique (as he seems to have > favored) or with unison > stringing on their lutes (as he seems to have > favored) Or with double > chanterelles (as was apparently the fashion re. "The > Schoole of Musicke")? > > > Joseph Mayes > > > On 10/9/06 8:35 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 14:22:20 > Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > > >> become > >> something less than beautiful? > > > > when divisions are played like the Can she excuse > divisions on the sting CD. > > Sounds like they were played with a knife and fork > and the speed varying with > > the ability to play a particular passage. > > > > I listen to the radio performance yesterday with a > few friends and the whole > > room burst into laughter at the point. > > > > That would be a nasty comment, if it were an > amateur player, but considering > > he is supposed to be a specialist player, you tend > to ask, who gives people > > these titles. I am sorry but POD can play that > fast and it still sounds like > > music. > > > > Mark > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 14:54:09 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Just a question about how far the "hip" people go: Does anyone play Dowland > using Thumb-out technique (as he seems to have favored) or with unison > stringing on their lutes (as he seems to have favored) Or with double > chanterelles (as was apparently the fashion re. "The Schoole of Musicke")? > > > Joseph Mayes Nigel North does both of the first things and the last is something I would love to try. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Just a question about how far the "hip" people go: Does anyone play Dowland using Thumb-out technique (as he seems to have favored) or with unison stringing on their lutes (as he seems to have favored) Or with double chanterelles (as was apparently the fashion re. "The Schoole of Musicke")? Joseph Mayes On 10/9/06 8:35 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 14:22:20 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt > [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > >> become >> something less than beautiful? > > when divisions are played like the Can she excuse divisions on the sting CD. > Sounds like they were played with a knife and fork and the speed varying with > the ability to play a particular passage. > > I listen to the radio performance yesterday with a few friends and the whole > room burst into laughter at the point. > > That would be a nasty comment, if it were an amateur player, but considering > he is supposed to be a specialist player, you tend to ask, who gives people > these titles. I am sorry but POD can play that fast and it still sounds like > music. > > Mark > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 14:22:20 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > become > something less than beautiful? when divisions are played like the Can she excuse divisions on the sting CD. Sounds like they were played with a knife and fork and the speed varying with the ability to play a particular passage. I listen to the radio performance yesterday with a few friends and the whole room burst into laughter at the point. That would be a nasty comment, if it were an amateur player, but considering he is supposed to be a specialist player, you tend to ask, who gives people these titles. I am sorry but POD can play that fast and it still sounds like music. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
one of the first posters i ever bought was a copy of the "mona lisa" and i learned a lot from it - much more than i was able to i learn from the original when it was brought to new york in 1960-something and i was whisked past it briefly, along with thousands of others in line. i learned about "sfumatura" from it and - because of the endless speculation over her mysterious smile - i learned that great painting is more than just what meets the eye. no matter how often i see it in reproduction, it's still beautiful: t-shirts, tea mugs, aprons, etc., etc.. i don't think there's any single image on the planet more reproduced than that painting - but it's still beautiful. assuming that the negative comments on sting's dowland recordings are artistic in nature and can be applied to art in general, at what point does the reproduction of any art - assuming it's done well - become something less than beautiful? at what point does its appreciation become something less than genuine? .. when it's mass produced and available to all? - bill ___ Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" The Wall Street Journal http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
>> Edin is an specialized lutenist (one of the best around, I should add), >> and >> >> Sting knows about Dowland (and about singing) as much as many so called >> professional singers. >> > > These are all very vague terms, what is a specialized lutenist and when > you > say sting knows about Dowland, I would say he knowledge is mot very deep. > > In the booklet to the CD (yes I have heard it and it is "Junk") he says > that > Dowland wrote so many verses for Come again. Well if he would have had a > look > at a facsilile he would have seen that the last 4 verses are an alternate > text > and not to be sung with the first two. > > I think Edin is a specialised lutenist, he seems to have specialised in > being > as unauthentic as possible. > > Another thing I know know from a secure source that he often uses single > strung archlutes with a very high tension. There is also a video of him > using such > an instrument in the recording session. > > Just a last word I think anyone can use any instrument they want and play > how > they want, but when they go around saying they play authentic instruments > and > base their playing on research that is so faulty then this is not being > "wild", "experimental" or "open-minded" it is just selling something under > false > name. > > For a project that shuns the early music movement ability to know anything > about how the music may have sound it is extrordinary how many statements > they > make about how "authentic" theor performances are. > > Just a thought, lute playing was always an expensive thing, but have pity > on > the sting fans who want to play the lute, they now have to have a PA > system > and effects board to get the sound of the CD. But they at least save money > on > strings, back to the old pyramid days and you only need half of them! > Mark You know, Mark, I am reminded by an Oscar Wilde's dictum, something like- "It is common to commiserate with a stranger's trouble, but it takes a really fine nature to appreciate a friend's success." RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 09.10.2006 11:49:29 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Edin is an specialized lutenist (one of the best around, I should add), and > > Sting knows about Dowland (and about singing) as much as many so called > professional singers. > These are all very vague terms, what is a specialized lutenist and when you say sting knows about Dowland, I would say he knowledge is mot very deep. In the booklet to the CD (yes I have heard it and it is "Junk") he says that Dowland wrote so many verses for Come again. Well if he would have had a look at a facsilile he would have seen that the last 4 verses are an alternate text and not to be sung with the first two. I think Edin is a specialised lutenist, he seems to have specialised in being as unauthentic as possible. Another thing I know know from a secure source that he often uses single strung archlutes with a very high tension. There is also a video of him using such an instrument in the recording session. Just a last word I think anyone can use any instrument they want and play how they want, but when they go around saying they play authentic instruments and base their playing on research that is so faulty then this is not being "wild", "experimental" or "open-minded" it is just selling something under false name. For a project that shuns the early music movement ability to know anything about how the music may have sound it is extrordinary how many statements they make about how "authentic" theor performances are. Just a thought, lute playing was always an expensive thing, but have pity on the sting fans who want to play the lute, they now have to have a PA system and effects board to get the sound of the CD. But they at least save money on strings, back to the old pyramid days and you only need half of them! Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Monday 09 October 2006 11:03, you wrote: > > I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in > > Germany have already exceeded 30. > > RT > > There is an incredible amount of advertising of this CD here in Italy too. > Every morning after the radio news there is an extract of Come again sang > by Sting with the advise of buying the CD "in the best CD shops". > This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music > and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No one knows > who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music is but > the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as this CD > like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs recorded by > specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is > something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not the > music. > > Francesco > Not just music, art in general. The holywood productions sell by millions even if it's cliche crap, while quality productions of many european movies reach only a limited number of people. Literature (think of the millions of Da Vinci code books) and food dito story (think of the mc donalds food 'art'). As long as there is a niche for a group of people sharing their sensitivity for a better dowland performance or a 'slow food' restaurant, I really don't mind. taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Caro Francesco, Sad as it may be for some, different market laws determine success of a certain product, and its quality has little to do with that. Regarding the cd itself, I must say that I find your characterization of "a piece of junk" a bit too extreme, if not a bit offensive. Edin is an specialized lutenist (one of the best around, I should add), and Sting knows about Dowland (and about singing) as much as many so called professional singers. I've heard dozens of lute/lute songs cd's that I find terribly unpleasant, but would never dare to call them publicly a piece of junk. Of course, you have the right to do it. I don't think we should be angry about this cd' success. Let's wait a bit and see whether it helps to promote what we've been doing. I think that there're other seriously alarming things in cultural world to worry about. Have anyone in the list actually heard the full CD? Saludos, Ariel. - Original Message - From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 11:03 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting >> I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in >> Germany have already exceeded 30. >> RT > There is an incredible amount of advertising of this CD here in Italy too. > Every morning after the radio news there is an extract of Come again sang > by > Sting with the advise of buying the CD "in the best CD shops". > This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music > and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No one > knows > who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music is but > the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as this CD > like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs recorded by > specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is > something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not the > music. > > Francesco > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
> I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in > Germany have already exceeded 30. > RT There is an incredible amount of advertising of this CD here in Italy too. Every morning after the radio news there is an extract of Come again sang by Sting with the advise of buying the CD "in the best CD shops". This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No one knows who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music is but the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as this CD like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs recorded by specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not the music. Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Where do you click to find Sting in this link? If you have already translated the introduction, how about posting it to the lutenet? On Oct 8, 2006, at 8:29 AM, magnus andersson wrote: > Sting appeared on Swedish television today. =0A=0Ahttp://www.tv4.se/ > player/categories.aspx?progId=0&itemId=% > 20&treeId=1003&displayTreeId=10031=0A=0Afor a complete translation > of the introduction, please drop me a note and I'll translate it > for you.=0A=0AI must say I found it quite amusing listening to > Edin's showing of the lute during the interview set.=0A=0A=0Abest > wishes/ Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 08.10.2006 01:30:04 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Sting appeared on Swedish television today. Hi, thanks for the link, the live performances sound much much better than the CD does. I listened to the CD a couple of days ago and the lute does sound much more like a classical guitar than a lute.Maybe due partly to the single strings used probably only on a few tracks, but mainly due to the extreme close miking and lute playing that is heavily classical guitar infleunced.The sound is more like an electro-acoustic guitar than a lute. There is a also a heavy use of effect processing that sometimes gives the lute an almost keyboard like sound, for instance at the end of the first piece. Sting's vocals also sound better live without the extreme close miking. But in the end his theory of a "normal" voice is destroyed by his use of microphones, it would be interesting to hear the whole thing with a less extreme microphone set-up. Dowland would not have sung like Domingo, but he also didn't carry a PA system around with him. I think my first shock reaction was due to the press releases announcing a quite pure approach without modernisation, but in the end it is a pop production accompanied with a classical/romantic approach . Which is perfectly fine, no law against it, and as such works quite well, I would personally have been more interesting in hearing how a pop performer would have sounded in a more "hip" enviroment. If he does sell 300,000 in Germany then great and probably it will convince more concert organisers to believe in early music and particulary renaissance music. I just hope that we don't see a sort of Pavorotti and friends mentality happening, with all of it's mind numbing dullness. The moment that the music buisness smells that big sales are involved strange things can happen, but lets hope that the POD and Nigel Norths of this world also gain from a possible lute revolution. Interesting to see if Sting fans who first hear Dowland from their "hero" explore early music outside of this CD. I came to the lute through the guitarist of Yes saying he listened to a lot of lute music and particulary Julian Bream. But as Sting's attitude seems to be that he doesn't particulary like any early music performances except his own and Edin's, (Which is an opinion that he has every freedom to have) that may not happen. What is a fact, is that Sting is getting more media attention for his CD than probably than all other lutenists together in the last 20 years, this may be a good or bad thing, it may make no impression or change the way a large proportion of our society view the lute. What I find particulary interesting is that for all of it's modernisms the CD seems to get reviews that place it firmly for listeners who would normally listen to early music. This is something I did not expect them to say... The WAZ (Westdeutsche Zeitung) wrote... "This musical experiment is not for everyman with it's antiquated gravity, but will be loved by those who like "greensleeves" and shakespeare sonnets" In the end this whole "Sting Thing" is an interesting point to see where early music and lute laying stands at the moment and how the world views or ignores what the early music world is doing. As I said in my first mail I find Sting's emphasis on the words challenging and I am sure their is much more for early music singers to do in this direction, but his use of microphones, makes his experiments hard to take serious. If he has sold 300,000 in Germany alone then I am sure we can expect a second album quite soon, maybe he goes for a more "organic" approach next time. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Sting appeared on Swedish television today. =0A=0Ahttp://www.tv4.se/player/categories.aspx?progId=0&itemId=%20&treeId=1003&displayTreeId=10031=0A=0Afor a complete translation of the introduction, please drop me a note and I'll translate it for you.=0A=0AI must say I found it quite amusing listening to Edin's showing of the lute during the interview set.=0A=0A=0Abest wishes/=0Amagnus=0A=0A=0A- Original Message =0AFrom: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>=0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Saturday, October 7, 2006 3:52:15 PM=0ASubject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting=0A=0A=0AI have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in Germany have already =0Aexceeded 30.=0ART =0A=0AGreat news, more people now know who Dowland is and the stage is set to do something a bit more daring with his music=0A=0AMark=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATo get on or off this list see list information at=0Ahttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lu! te-admin/index.html=0A=0A--=0A=0A --
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in Germany have already exceeded 30. RT Great news, more people now know who Dowland is and the stage is set to do something a bit more daring with his music Mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
>> Hi,
>>
>> there is also an article in the Guardian about Stings Dowland
>> project at
>>
>> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1884639,00.html
>>
> "- the condition whereby musicians d'un certain age refuse to accept
> the inevitable (that talent and inspiration are finite qualities for
> 99 per cent of artists), and start dabbling, pompously and long-
> windedly, outside their comfort zone."
>
> "Sting's take on the oeuvre of melancholic Elizabethan composer
> lutist John Dowland, sounds a bit as if Sting has been caught
> moonlighting at one of those olde-worlde theme restaurants where
> people dress up as serving wenches or Henry VIII. There's not even a
> cheeky hidden track, a nod to former Police fans like myself
> ('Walketh on the Moon'?), to lighten the mood a little. Which sort of
> says it all really."
>
> Priceless
I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in Germany have already
exceeded 30.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Oct 7, 2006, at 5:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there is also an article in the Guardian about Stings Dowland
> project at
>
> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1884639,00.html
>
"- the condition whereby musicians d'un certain age refuse to accept
the inevitable (that talent and inspiration are finite qualities for
99 per cent of artists), and start dabbling, pompously and long-
windedly, outside their comfort zone."
"Sting's take on the oeuvre of melancholic Elizabethan composer
lutist John Dowland, sounds a bit as if Sting has been caught
moonlighting at one of those olde-worlde theme restaurants where
people dress up as serving wenches or Henry VIII. There's not even a
cheeky hidden track, a nod to former Police fans like myself
('Walketh on the Moon'?), to lighten the mood a little. Which sort of
says it all really."
Priceless
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Hi, there is also an article in the Guardian about Stings Dowland project at http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1884639,00.html Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Normally the shows are kept up on "Listen again" for a week... It's a concert, not the CD - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting > Yet another interview! For those of you lucky enough to have access to BBC > radio, Sting has made it to Radio 3's Early Music Show, tomorrow at 1pm > (FM > 90.2 - 92.4 MHz). The whole programme seems to be devoted to Dowland. > CB > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Yet another interview! For those of you lucky enough to have access to BBC radio, Sting has made it to Radio 3's Early Music Show, tomorrow at 1pm (FM 90.2 - 92.4 MHz). The whole programme seems to be devoted to Dowland. CB -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
On Sep 27, 2006, at 5:15 AM, Thomas Schall wrote: > Except the quoted remark I would share everything Sting said in that > interview. > Possibly someone can translate it? http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
In einer eMail vom 26.09.2006 22:16:28 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Hi Mark, > > Except the quoted remark I would share everything Sting said in that > interview. > Possibly someone can translate it? > > Best wishes > Thomas > The interview is only an excerpt from the full version that comes out on Thursday. It is pretty much the usual Sting stuff, he knows everything, he is the super musician blah, blah, blah, he does say he is not a prophet, but he does know that pop and rock music are over. Thanks for the info. Damn I have tickets to see Muse, She Wants Revenge and Placebo. could have saved the money if only I had listened to sting. Not the sort of ambassador for the lute we need to get a younger audience interested. Evil minds would maybe think it is all the attempt of an ageing rock star in the face of more interesting innovative musicians. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting
Hi Mark, Except the quoted remark I would share everything Sting said in that interview. Possibly someone can translate it? Best wishes Thomas -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. September 2006 22:07 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] The last word goes to Sting Hi, I may have overshot the "Mark" that you usually know, in the last few days. I have a bad cold at the moment maybe extreme HIPness is also a viral infection. So I will let the "Maestro" Sting have the last words taken from an interview online at about his Dowland project... http://www.stern.de/unterhaltung/musik/570529.html?q=sting "Fakt ist, dass wir derzeit am Ende des Pop stehen, der dauernd monotoner wird. Der Rock liegt im Sterben." my attempt at a translation "It is a fact, that we are at the end of pop music, that is becoming more monotone. Rock music lies dieing" A strange comment when you consider that at least here in Germany innovative Rock albums such as the the latest CD's by Muse (who have also claimed to be infleunced by renaissance music) or Billy Talent went straight to the top of the charts, but he has told us the the "truth" so I am sure he knows what he is doing with his archlute :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
