[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)
Let's say: Bass line and chords played by guitars or keyboards. I hate to see Stage Pianos excluded from the continuo gig :) On 12.09.19 23:28, Howard Posner wrote: The rhythm guitar and bass Sent from my iPhone On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams wrote: If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm guitarist in a modern band? Leonard Williams -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)
The rhythm guitar and bass Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams > wrote: > > If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a > non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm > guitarist in a modern band? > Leonard Williams > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?
Dear Jorg, I play continuo on theorbo and other plucked instruments and also employ the mandora/gallichon in nominal D tuning with a string length of 75cm (and also the large calchedon in nominal A tuning with sl 98cm) where the instrument is appropriate - ie mostly second to last quarter of the 18thC. There are quite a lot of songs and concerted instrumental works from the mid-18thC for the smaller instrument as obbligato with fully written out accompaniments and these provide good sources for the suitable style of continuo realisations on this instrument. Of course, the repertoire where the smaller gallichon/mandora (ie D or later E nominal) is most appropriate is not really the baroque period but the pre-classical with its longer harmonic lines and where things like measured arpeggios etc are increasingly employed. Indeed, much like some early five/six string/course guitar sources of the late 18th/early 19th C (eg Porro, Scheidler, De Call, Molitor, et als). As you remark, the instrument can be quite loud and thus provides a good continuo instrument for this later period (especially for works from German-speaking lands - but not exclusively). Incidentally, the usual intervals are not the same as on the renaissance lute (with a third between the fourth and third course) but as on the guitar (with the third between the third and second course). regards Martyn On Thursday, 12 September 2019, 08:17:00 BST, Jörg Hilbert wrote: Dear all, I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it's quite sonorous. Has anybody experiences with this? Thanks Jörg To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo in D (renaissance tuning)?
I do on occasion. I have a huge 10-course in D 78cm or something similar). Sometimes I chicken out and play transposed parts. If the D-lute stint is a bit longer I bite the bullet and play at pitch. Not so difficult (but I play easy continuo on it: early Italian music), no complicated high baroque. David On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 09:16, Jörg Hilbert <[1]hilbert.jo...@t-online.de> wrote: Dear all, I have got a big Mandora in D (renaissance tuning, NOT d-minor, NOT theorobo). I may try to play some continuo with it as it's quite sonorous. Has anybody experiences with this? Thanks Jörg To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:hilbert.jo...@t-online.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
Otherwise music students is a fantastic page turning technology. Max Max Langer, PhD 20 rue Diderot 38000 Grenoble France +33 631 94 21 92 On 15 March 2017 at 17:53, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: > A melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal > with a full score. Too many page turns. > > A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when > did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in > modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've > played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, > often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the > Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in > (relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least > some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was > published as part music; continuo is just another part book. > > Guy > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of howard posner > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners > > It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo > part. I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page > turns. > >> On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong >> wrote: >> >> Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, >> Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full >> score, assuming both have the same figures? > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
A melody line is handy, especially for recitative but I'd rather not deal with a full score. Too many page turns. A related question: what did continuo players use back in the day, i.e., when did we start publishing part music as a score? That's a common practice in modern editions, but most of the 16th and early 17th century music that I've played in various wind bands was originally published as individual parts, often in separate books (Gesualdo being a notable exception). Most of the Baroque music I've played (mainly opera and orchestral continuo) was in (relatively) modern editions, so I'm not sure about the originals. At least some Baroque music that I'm familiar with (Castello, for example), was published as part music; continuo is just another part book. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:17 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part. I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns. > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong > wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, > Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full > score, assuming both have the same figures? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
When accompanying a soloist, I prefer to see his/part. Otherwise bass part is more convenient. But I can live with either score or part. Recits are the exception: I want to read these along. David On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 at 17:19, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: It's always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part. I've done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns. > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong <[2]edward.y...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, >Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full >score, assuming both have the same figures? To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
It’s always nice to have the score, or the melodic line, in the continuo part. I’ve done a lot of cutting and pasting to avoid inconvenient page turns. > On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong > wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, > Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full > score, assuming both have the same figures? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo: Score vs Part; also Page-Turners
Hello Edward, There have been positive comments on this list about using a tablet and foot-operated page turner. I’m thinking adopting this solution when the next iPad Pro is released, which I believe will be within a few weeks. Miles > On Mar 15, 2017, at 9:25 AM, Edward Chrysogonus Yong > wrote: > > Dear Lutenetters who play basso continuo, > Is there a preference either way for playing from bass part or full > score, assuming both have the same figures? > I find that playing from a score means I can get my bearings better but > have to flip pages more, no easy task when both hands are occupied with > playing. That's when I sometimes wish I either played from a bass part > to reduce page turns or had a page-turner. Does anyone use a > page-turner? > Curious to hear your thoughts. > From sunny Singapore, > Edward C. Yong > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Continuo duets for two continuo instruments?
On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:53:54 +0300, wikla wrote > Dear (continuo-)lutenists, > > there are (at least) two examples of duets for two continuo > instruments - only the numbered bass line written - but meant to be > played as otherwise all improvised duet. The one I remembered and > also found in the Net, is by > G. Strozzi, see http://www.continuo.ca/files/Strozzi%20-%20Sonata%20di%20basso%20solo.pdf > > There is at least one other similiar case - got also it nearly 20 > years ago from S. Stubbs (if memory serves...). And it also is in my > bookshelf, I know that, but I cannot find it... Anyone has any idea? Hmm, I don't know about "Continuo Duet" - but there are the of course the partimento duets by Pasquini, maybe you think of these? > Next month in a music course I might have possibility to play with a > professional baroque harpist, and this kind of improvisation stuff > could be most enjoyable! And I've done these two in a course in > Bremen in the beginning on 90's... I'll use the Pasquini ones in a course next weekend :-) HTH RalfD -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well, not only in keyboard continuo there shouldn't be no limits; also
plucked continuo is free - the only "limit" is that when it is good
(subjective!) it serves the the soloist/ensemble/orchestra/... And also
"serving" is subjective. Of course usually mastering the style and
conventions of the period help achieving the goal... But being only
"pedant" doesn't guarantee art...
All the best,
Arto
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:27:03 -0400, "Roman Turovsky"
wrote:
> There seems to be no "generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo
> practice" included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as
> evidenced by its graduates.
> RT
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> To: "Christopher Wilke" ; "Roman Turovsky"
>
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
>
>
>
> Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
part)
> of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did
put
> in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo
> world...
>
> MH
>
> --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
>
> From: Roman Turovsky
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "Christopher Wilke"
>
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
>
>
> If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
> there are no generally acceptable limits for
> keyboard continuo practice.
> RT
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> To: "Christopher Wilke"
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
>
>
>>
>>
>> Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
>> continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
>> say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
>> suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
>> keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
>> practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
>> that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
>> any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
>> parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
>> mind.
>>
>> Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
>> some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
>> heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
>> grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
>> the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
>> instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
>> song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
>> the amplification.
>>
>> This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
>> defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
>> popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
>> thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
>> sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
>> intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
>> it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
>>
>> MH
>> --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
>>
>> From: Christopher Wilke
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>> To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
>>
>> Cc: "Lutelist"
>> Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
>>
>> --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't think really these people really make any attempt
>> > to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
>> > any relevant knowledge at all.
>> >
>> > Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>> >
>> > Cynically
>> >
>> > Monica
>> >
>> I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
>> things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very
>> helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
>> tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
>> think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
>> historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
>> with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
>> essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
>> if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
>> of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
>> playing."
>> Chris
>> Christopher Wilke
>> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
>> www.christopherwilke.com
>> >
>> > - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
>> <[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> > Sent: Friday, April 01,
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
On a broader front - it troubles me that so many people - not just
musicians - seem unable to make a clear distinction between fact and
fiction. Both intellectually and morally I see this as a problem! --
Monica
As a victim of unfortunate news concerning a concert mate [Three
fingers??!! That's horrible and must be soo painful!] I must agree.
Especially today.
Sean
ps, he's ok but I had already rewritten the concert program in my
head ;^)
Eugene
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say
'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott
Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant
as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of
historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the
problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from
what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to
be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world
and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a
sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than
with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible
without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to
generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't think really these people really make any attempt
> to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
> any relevant knowledge at all.
>
> Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>
> Cynically
>
> Monica
>
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a
very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I
don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is
accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After
all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any
number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
playing."
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
>
> - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>
>
> > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
> >>> I came across this
> CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
> >>> "Bon voyage" some time
> ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
> tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
> album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
> year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
> this album, Echo de Paris:
> >>
> >> [4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
> >>
> >> It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
> and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
> very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
> pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
> Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
> Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
I think there may be a little confusion amongst the few recordings
referenced here. Compared to "Echo de Paris" or Ensemble Kapsberger, The
Foscarini Experience is downright tame in their interpretive approach to
Foscarini. Where they've wandered is asserting a particular painting is
known to portray Foscarini accompanied by triangle and violone and then
riffing into a whimsical historical fantasy in liner-note narrative from
there.
Yes...What really bothers me is not the way in which they play the music -
which in its way is enjoyable. It is that they have deliberately put into
circulation information about Foscarini and his music which is entirely
false. I think this should be a matter for concern.
On a broader front - it troubles me that so many people - not just
musicians - seem unable to make a clear distinction between fact and
fiction. Both intellectually and morally I see this as a problem!
Monica
Eugene
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as
you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort
of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't think really these people really make any attempt
> to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
> any relevant knowledge at all.
>
> Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>
> Cynically
>
> Monica
>
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
playing."
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
>
> - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>
>
> > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
> >>> I came across this
> CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
> >>> "Bon voyage" some time
> ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
> tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
> album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
> year with an opera singer)
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
I think there may be a little confusion amongst the few recordings
referenced here. Compared to "Echo de Paris" or Ensemble Kapsberger, The
Foscarini Experience is downright tame in their interpretive approach to
Foscarini. Where they've wandered is asserting a particular painting is
known to portray Foscarini accompanied by triangle and violone and then
riffing into a whimsical historical fantasy in liner-note narrative from
there.
Eugene
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:56 AM
> To: Christopher Wilke
> Cc: Lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
>
>
>
>Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
>continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
>say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
>suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
>keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
>practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
>that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
>any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
>parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
>mind.
>
> Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
>some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
>heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
>grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
>the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
>instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
>song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
>the amplification.
>
> This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
>defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
>popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
>thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
>sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
>intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
>it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
>
>MH
>--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
>
> From: Christopher Wilke
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
> To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
>
> Cc: "Lutelist"
> Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
>
>--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think really these people really make any attempt
>> to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
>> any relevant knowledge at all.
>>
>> Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>>
>> Cynically
>>
>> Monica
>>
>I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
>things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very
>helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
>tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
>think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
>historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
>with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
>essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
>if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
>of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
>playing."
>Chris
>Christopher Wilke
>Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
>www.christopherwilke.com
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
><[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>>
>>
>> > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
>> >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
>> >>> I came across this
>> CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
>> >>> "Bon voyage" some time
>> ago.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
>> tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
>> album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
>> year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
>> this album, Echo de Paris:
>> >>
>> >> [4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
>> >>
>> >> It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
>> and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
>> very fluently (but perhaps,
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
There seems to be no "generally acceptable limits for keyboard continuo
practice" included in the curriculum of the Bologna conservatory, as
evidenced by its graduates.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Christopher Wilke" ; "Roman Turovsky"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most part)
of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair I did put
in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord continuo
world...
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky wrote:
From: Roman Turovsky
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "Christopher Wilke"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Christopher Wilke"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't think really these people really make any attempt
> to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
> any relevant knowledge at all.
>
> Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>
> Cynically
>
> Monica
>
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
playing."
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
>
> - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>
>
> > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
> >>> I came across this
> CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
> >>> "Bon voyage" some time
> ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
> tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
> album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
> year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
> this album, Echo de Paris:
> >>
> >> [4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
> >>
> >> It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
> and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
> very fluently (bu
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Well by generally accepted I mean by the generality (ie for the most
part) of keyboard players not necessarily all of them - and to be fair
I did put in the rider that all was not perfect even in the harpsichord
continuo world...
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Roman Turovsky wrote:
From: Roman Turovsky
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "Christopher
Wilke"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 15:02
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize
that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Christopher Wilke" <[2]chriswi...@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
>
>
> Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say
'great
> continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin
in,
> say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as
you
> suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
> keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of
historical
> practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem
is
> that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from
what
> any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be
a
> parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
> mind.
>
>Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world
and
> some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
> heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a
sort of
> grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than
with
> the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
> instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
> song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible
without
> the amplification.
>
>This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
> defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to
current
> popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
> thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to
generate
> sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
> intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
> it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
>
> MH
> --- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke <[4]chriswi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> From: Christopher Wilke <[5]chriswi...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>, "Monica Hall"
> <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
>
> --- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > I don't think really these people really make any attempt
> > to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
> > any relevant knowledge at all.
> >
> > Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
> >
> > Cynically
> >
> > Monica
> >
> I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
> things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a
very
> helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
> tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I
don't
> think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
> historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is
accord
> with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
> essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After
all,
> if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any
number
> of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
> playing."
> Chris
> Christopher Wilke
> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
> www.christopherwilke.com
> >
> > - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
> <[2][10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[3][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
> >
> >
> > > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> > >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
> > >>> I came across this
> > CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
> > >>>
[LUTE] Re: Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
If you ever see, say, Guido Morini doing live continuo you'd realize that
there are no generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice.
RT
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Christopher Wilke"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Continuo and the Foscarini Experience
Interesting thoughts Chris - but I don't think people would say 'great
continuo playing' if one busked in the style of, say, Scott Joplin in,
say, a Bach Mass setting. In fact, the evidence is not as scant as you
suggest and in practice there are generally acceptable limits for
keyboard continuo practice (often based on what we know of historical
practice). As far as I understand from the discussion, the problem is
that the 'Foscarini Experience' performance is so far away from what
any audience might have heard ('experienced') at the time as to be a
parody, or rather a travesty, of what the composer may have had in
mind.
Of course all is not perfect even in the keyboard continuo world and
some harpsichord players seem to find it hard to resist things like
heavy regular arpeggiation in, say, a Vivaldi slow movement - a sort of
grafted on harpsichord concerto but it's still much better than with
the lute/theorbo where electronic amplification of the individual
instrument can often be the norm thus allowing a sort of fancy lute
song style accompaniment which in practice would be inaudible without
the amplification.
This sort of 'experience' by FE is surely an admission of artistic
defeat rather than a triumph of individualism - by pandering to current
popular music fashions (much simple rhythmic movement and a lot of
thrashing about) it seems as though the ensemble is trying to generate
sales by satisfying the lowest common denominator - nothing
intrinsically wrong with this of course, but hackles must rise when
it's promoted as being close to what was heard at the time
MH
--- On Fri, 1/4/11, Christopher Wilke wrote:
From: Christopher Wilke
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
To: "Stuart Walsh" , "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Lutelist"
Date: Friday, 1 April, 2011, 13:58
--- On Fri, 4/1/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't think really these people really make any attempt
> to play the music in a "historically informed way"..or have
> any relevant knowledge at all.
>
> Everyone is just fooled by their virtuosity.
>
> Cynically
>
> Monica
>
I think we have to make a distinction between the scholarly side of
things and the artistic aspect. "Historically informed" is not a very
helpful critical term. Deciding who is "historically informed-er"
tells us little about the artistic worth of the performance. I don't
think it is necessarily invalid for a performer, in light of scant
historical evidence, to bring in aspects of performance done is accord
with modern principles (i.e. improvisation) as a substitute for
essential subjects treated only ambiguously in the texts. After all,
if you're one of the well-respected harpsichord players in any number
of baroque ensembles, they call this sort of thing "great continuo
playing."
Chris
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
>
> - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:06 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Foscarini Experience again
>
>
> > On 31/03/2011 22:08, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> >> On 31/03/2011 19:53, Monica Hall wrote:
> >>> I came across this
> CD by the group Foscarini Experience with the title
> >>> "Bon voyage" some time
> ago.
> >>
> >>
> >> I looked around to see if I could hear some of the
> tracks as samples. Couldn't find anything but I did find an
> album by 'Private Musicke' (who played at Edinburgh last
> year with an opera singer) and there are some samples from
> this album, Echo de Paris:
> >>
> >> [4]http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC24173#listen
> >>
> >> It's interesting that the one solo of Corbetta's
> and the several of Bartolotti are played actually as solos -
> very fluently (but perhaps, at the gushing rather than the
> pinched, end of the spectrum) whereas Foscarini (and
> Briceno) get a complete makeover. Actually playing through
> Foscarini you struggle to find anything musically coherent
> at all - but on this album, his (ahem) music bursts
> forth as colourful, radiant and beguilingly tuneful.
> >
> > (i.e. this is all rather curious...where did all these
> arrangements come from - and arrangements of what in the
> first place?)
> >>
> >>
> >> Stuart
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> In the liner notes it
> mentions an
> >>> illustration which
> features Foscarini on a wagon playing
[LUTE] Re: continuo figures
I guess everybody knows that, when Vivaldi was asked to add continuo figures to his work, he accepted, but added the comment "per li coglioni", which is definitely not a nice way to define "not experienced continuo players" ;-) David Tayler on 05/09/10 21.11 wrote: I have pondered this very question, including specifically whether the 10s and so on are a way of indicating voices in single or reentrant tuning. The 10s are often in the wrong voice for good counterpoint. My feeling is as follows: 1. it is possible the the compound figures may have a special meaning for lute, but hard to prove. There could have been a style of descant accompaniment with a wider ranging "right hand" 2. The sharps, sharp 3's, etc are just sharps. 3. And, lastly, the figures are not the composer's intent. I truly believe, based on supporting evidence, that house figures were intended for amateur musicians who could not harmonize at sight. At best, they are a snapshot of a possibility for a realization, not standard continuo practice. In this regard, the figures are like Alphabet notation--they simplify the possibilities. I don't use these figures, except on a basic awareness level. Unfigured bass is the standard for 17th century music. I did once have someone ask me after a concert, facsimile in hand, why I had changed a figure in Caccini--I changed a # to a 4-3--and after I explained that the figures were not intended for experienced continuo players, I got a very long, cold stare. So be careful! :) dt At 03:25 AM 9/5/2010, you wrote: I am working on some (father and daughters') Caccini songs. Sometimes they use the figure #3 and sometimes just #. In Le Nuove Musiche (1601/1602) it appears the rule is #3 if preceeded by 4. To distinguish from 11 #10, presumably. And just # when it's a chord that has to have a major third. In Nuove Musiche e nuova maniera di scriverle (1614) I fail to see consistency in this rule. Daughter Francesca in her Libro Primo (1618) seems to be following the rule I would tentatively distill from Le Nuove Musiche: 4 #3 to prescribe melodic suspension/release, to distinguish from 11 #10 in the other octave. And just # to mark a major third in the chord. Any thoughts on this? I will check with Einstein and Freiberg in a minute, but am hoping for more recent studies and players' points of view. David -- *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
The Novello is the Dart Edition, I belive, which is not too bad, but has way too many page turns! There is, to my knowledge, no suitable modern edition, but the Bartlett has at least most of the original marks. And way less page turns. I did find the missing chacony, which is a very funny story. Another fun Dido tidbit is that the triplets are always performed at double speed, so that the opera is 2 beats shorter than composed. dt At 06:23 AM 10/26/2009, you wrote: >I'm using an edition by Novello. > > > > It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you > will be performing. There are a some editorial choices/additions > that are made in Dido; > > >I didn't know there were numbers with guitars, nice to know. My >decision to use a guitar is simply because it is the only baroque >instrument I have! However I noticed that the opera has many nice >places to use the guitar (chorus and dances). > > indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with > "gittars," indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are > not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years > later, > and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or > some other way). So proceed with caution if you're going to use > some > other version. > >That's what I am about to do... > > Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using > the lower parts to figure the bass). > >-- >To get on or off this list see list information at >[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > >References > >1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Re: getting your hands on the Bartlett edition--I had heard unhappy rumors about King's Music and recently came across this article. Looks like the music may still be available, but King's Music is no more. Very unfortunate. http://indianapublicmedia.org/harmonia/death-early-music-publishing-company/ Best to all, jeff - Original Message - From: "Bruno Correia" To: "List LUTELIST" Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo I'm using an edition by Novello. It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you will be performing. There are a some editorial choices/additions that are made in Dido; I didn't know there were numbers with guitars, nice to know. My decision to use a guitar is simply because it is the only baroque instrument I have! However I noticed that the opera has many nice places to use the guitar (chorus and dances). indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with "gittars," indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years later, and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or some other way). So proceed with caution if you're going to use some other version. That's what I am about to do... Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using the lower parts to figure the bass). -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
I'm using an edition by Novello. It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you will be performing. There are a some editorial choices/additions that are made in Dido; I didn't know there were numbers with guitars, nice to know. My decision to use a guitar is simply because it is the only baroque instrument I have! However I noticed that the opera has many nice places to use the guitar (chorus and dances). indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with "gittars," indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years later, and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or some other way). So proceed with caution if you're going to use some other version. That's what I am about to do... Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using the lower parts to figure the bass). -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Ah! That's what I thought... Thanks. 2009/10/26 David Tayler <[1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> Get the Bartlett Edition.. Although it must be said that continuo is a cut and paste profession. dt At 09:02 PM 10/25/2009, you wrote: >A quesion for continuo experts: I am about to play continuo (5 course >guitar) on Dido and Aeneas (Purcell). Unfortunately I received a full >score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this format. Is >there a version for bass and the top line? That would save paper and >make everything much easier (no page turns...). > > > >Regards. > >-- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Get the Bartlett Edition.. Although it must be said that continuo is a cut and paste profession. dt At 09:02 PM 10/25/2009, you wrote: >A quesion for continuo experts: I am about to play continuo (5 course >guitar) on Dido and Aeneas (Purcell). Unfortunately I received a full >score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this format. Is >there a version for bass and the top line? That would save paper and >make everything much easier (no page turns...). > > > >Regards. > >-- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Dear Bruno On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:02 AM, Bruno Correia wrote: > guitar) on Dido and Aeneas (Purcell). Unfortunately I received a full > score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this format. Is > there a version for bass and the top line? There's a King's Music bc part, it's easy to play from. But don't throw away your score yet, as you'll need it to figure the part. It has a few figures, but far from all. David PS: On the Soud Clips page of my web site you can listen to what I did for one of the guitar dances. -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
On Oct 25, 2009, at 9:02 PM, Bruno Correia wrote: > Unfortunately I received a full >score of the opera, which is very hard to acompany in this > format. Is >there a version for bass and the top line? That would save paper > and >make everything much easier (no page turns...). It might also give you a version that differs from the one that you will be performing. There are a some editorial choices/additions that are made in Dido; indeed, if I remember right, the numbers with "gittars," indicated in the 1689 Josiah Priest school libretto, are not in the surviving score, which dates from at least 50 years later, and have to be added (by repeating the music from vocal numbers or some other way). So proceed with caution if you're going to use some other version. Safer to take the time to photocopy and cut up the part (after using the lower parts to figure the bass). -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
Perhaps that is a better term, but some basso sequente parts do not double the treble. In addition, colla parte is a style of continuo playing, whereas some seguente parts can also be simply composite bass parts. The famous resolution of Palestrina's works by organ would fall more into a colla parte style, or even "short score", but for renaissance music short score is not as persuasive as full parts, whereas in Handel it is necessary. If there is a technical term for "figured upper parts", that would be great, of course, perhaps basso seguente is a better fit, however those really high parts would not be practical on a bass instrument (not so high parts could be doubled on a five string cello, but the sound is not always persuasive). Therfore they are not "basso". And, since these cases explicitly introduce new material, they are not exactly "seguente." (see below on barring as an alternate meaning for "seguente") By that definition, one could refer to a Continuo part itself as basso seguente, especially for bass sonatas. Some scholars posit that there is no real difference historically for the early 17th century (CF the Grove Article, by no means complete), but that is not how we use the terms now. Later music, such as Handel, is of course different. However, we use the term slightly differently than Banchieri, and even Banchieri uses different terms, such as barittono. According to the "unbarred" definition of basso seguente, much later music would not be so defined, but the term is historically specific to older music, as opposed to basetto. The barring question may of course refer obliquely to the absence of rests, and my reading of the Cartela rests on my limited grasp of idiomatic Italian. The fundamental question remains, however, as to what to do with the figures, since they are not always doubled by parts. dt At 06:11 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote: You seem to be describing a "basso seguente." =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Stravinsky's Chamber Concerto in E flat (Dumbarton Oaks), performed by the Orchestre Philharmonique des Pays de Loire; Marc Soustrot, conductor. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
There are many examples of figures which do not double any of the voices. This means that they were either played or ignored, by they are not "kibitzing" figures. These additional figures also fall into several categories. Some of these imply, by there shape and structure, additional melodic lines. Others, which are more complex, reveal fully structured chordal progressions. Since these figures do not double the other parts--and, if you think about it, how could they in a fugal allegro where only one part is playing in the beginning--I cannot think of a way NOT to play them that would justify their inclusion. In my own group, we normally play these pieces on the organ, the figures appear therefore in the organ. However, I have on occasion played them on the archlute. You can certainly argue that many of these high figures are not lutelike, but they exist and should be played--or ignored, that is an aesthetic choice, oi course. Sometimes we say--I know these upper parts are figured with unique harmonies, but I don't like the sound. Example--I just now played a Legrenzi piece with undoubled figures, Sonata quarta, m77. Hey, there is a figure for the the seguente part doubling the viola. However, there are thousands of examples, from all periods, all parts. Another famous "naked" figure--this time over the bass--is from the beginning of the second movement of the opening of Corelli's Christmas concerto. When we see all of these types of figures in the bass part--where they seem "normal--a brief extra part, so to speak, we then see them in the Solo cello parts, then in the basso seguente parts for viola, then the basso seguente for second and first violins. These figures paint a complete and compelling picture of harmonization practices of the time, replete with sevenths. The examples are far too numerous and complete to ignore, and they appear in music from all countries as well. Similarly, on a smaller scale, are the numerous and highly structured examples of figured rests. dt At 03:37 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> We know that continuo players often played with the treble players >> before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in >> the colla parte parts. > > How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means > colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly > continuo, I should say. The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too much in openings of fugues, is my motto. David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
You seem to be describing a "basso seguente." =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Stravinsky's Chamber Concerto in E flat (Dumbarton Oaks), performed by the Orchestre Philharmonique des Pays de Loire; Marc Soustrot, conductor. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:10 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo Question We know that continuo players often played with the treble players before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in the colla parte parts. The figures show many things, but the two that jump out are first that these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard. dt At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > What's up guys, > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, > where > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know > what > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > Any suggestions? Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with fugues is a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry and b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
> "David van Ooijen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] scripsit > The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what > the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you > like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of > the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too > much in openings of fugues, is my motto. Should be everyone's ^_^ Can't find chapter and verse right now, but contemporary sources (most probably tutors on continuo) had it that continuo in the sense of David's 'play what you like within these figures' was not supposed to start before the cue of the 3rd part. Mathias References 1. 3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> We know that continuo players often played with the treble players >> before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in >> the colla parte parts. > > How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means > colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly > continuo, I should say. The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too much in openings of fugues, is my motto. David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
"David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > We know that continuo players often played with the treble players > before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in > the colla parte parts. How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly continuo, I should say. David, would you mind to give one or two examples, btw? Mathias > The figures show many things, but the two that > jump out are first that > these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the > chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be > doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although > generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard. > dt > > > > At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: > >"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > What's up guys, > > > > > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > > > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > > > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > > > Any suggestions? > > > >Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with > >fugues is > > > >a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry > >and > >b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. > > > >Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
We know that continuo players often played with the treble players before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in the colla parte parts. The figures show many things, but the two that jump out are first that these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard. dt At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: >"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > What's up guys, > > > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > > Any suggestions? > >Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with >fugues is > >a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry >and >b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. > >Mathias > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
David, Matthias, Roman, thanks for your input on my continuo question. Best, Davidr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
There is no easy answer. You can play colla parte, or course, the ultimate challenge for any lute music, or double the lower voices, or you can just figure it. If it is a later Baroque piece, there will many interlocking 7ths and 9ths, and in these cases I often will play the sevenths so that they resolve, rightly or wrongly, on the next big beat chord. (as in "tea for two"). That avoids constantly doubling the resolution, which often does not sound good or creates ensemble or dynamic issues. I also use the big archlute for these types of pieces, to keep the sevenths and ninths high in the stack and to avoid octave resolutions--a big problem IMHO on many recordings with theorbo continuo, where the extra voice doubles the leading tone or the 7th in the wrong octave. 9ths are a bit less fussy, they can sound OK as a 2nd, and are often figured as a "2". dt At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: >"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > What's up guys, > > > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > > Any suggestions? > >Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with >fugues is > >a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry >and >b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. > >Mathias > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > What's up guys, > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > Any suggestions? Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with fugues is a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry and b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany
It already is - teh text comes with english translation. Thomas - Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "rodrigo demetrio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English? Rob On 17/04/2008, "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in D minor tuning. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany
"Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English? > > Rob Rainer Luckhardt of Seicento music and I took care that this was done with the 1st edition. The English translation comes as an extra booklet. Mathias > > Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from > > Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in > > D minor tuning. > > -- > > Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany
Is there any possibility that this will be translated into English? Rob On 17/04/2008, "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from > Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in > D minor tuning. > -- > Mathias > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: continuo playing in Germany
"rodrigo demetrio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Dear lute players, > I am new in this forum. > I would like to have information about lute continuo playing in Germany at > the end of XVII century. Many sources of solo lute music are in d tuning but > I don't find continuo sources which speak about the appropriated instruments > and tunings used at that time. > Can anybody help me? > Many thanks! > Rodrigo Please excuse tze shameless ad: Order Fundamenta der Lauten-Musique from Deutsche Lautengesellschaft. It's a tutor for continuo with 11c lute in D minor tuning. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!
Furthermore, the text often dictates much of what's going on musically (which notes should be stressed, etc.). We do a lot of Italian songs, and the singers our continuo band works with know a lot more about Italian (pronunciation and meaning) than most of the instrumentalists, certainly much more than I (a lot of what little I know I've picked up from the singers). Guy -Original Message- From: Daniel Winheld [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 8:37 AM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen! "Singers are the best, because normally they don't know anything of the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the boss with the singers..." My experience has been that when playing with someone who has the lead role and has to breathe, you are most definitely NOT the boss- merely an at-will employee who can and will be terminated any time. Even with the Soprano I Live With, and +30 years-old marriage contract. The rhythm and pulse thing is sometimes a defense, however. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!
"Singers are the best, because normally they don't know anything of the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the boss with the singers..." My experience has been that when playing with someone who has the lead role and has to breathe, you are most definitely NOT the boss- merely an at-will employee who can and will be terminated any time. Even with the Soprano I Live With, and +30 years-old marriage contract. The rhythm and pulse thing is sometimes a defense, however. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!
> it seems that the more I learn, the less I know! By the way, just that seems to be the proper (and VERY classical) way of learning! (Compare for ex. what Blaise Pascal wrote about knowledge.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!
On 12/18/2007, "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've been trying to teach myself continuo for most of this year, and > I'm having a terrible time with it: it seems that the more I learn, > the less I know! Don't worry! Just play 3rds when you don't know what to do. And take care to know, when there is a 4-3. There play the 3rd only after whatsoever confusion and dissonance... ;-) Arto PS It is utterly important that you have practice! Even the recorder players will do... ;.) Singers are the best, because normally they don't know anything of the rhythm and pulse; you normally will be the boss with the singers... And take care you know those things then... :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo is the king/queen!
On Dec 18, 2007, at 3:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ...Start playing > continuo! It is hard, really hard, in the beginning, but it is > worth of > all the troubles! I'll take your word for it that it's worth it in the end, Arto. ;-) I've been trying to teach myself continuo for most of this year, and I'm having a terrible time with it: it seems that the more I learn, the less I know! David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Sounds fine to me. Regarding timing, lute and harpsichord players often adjust the immediacy of their plucking action by delaying the beat slightly. I've had to do this deliberately on many occasions. For instance, with strings - they start bowing, THEN the note appears. When we pluck, it jumps out immediately. The consequence is that we sound early compared to everyone else. I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to, David, when you talk about lute players being the last to the bar - or are you saying we are still trying to figure out the figures? That happens too ;-) Rob MacKillop www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
On the issue of parallels in continuo playing, I think it is a good thing that there is a lot of diversity in continuo realization, and a lot of choices. As far as practical matters, because at a certain point one has to play the stuff, the big issue for me is timing--in a mixed continuo group the lute is alas usually the last one to the bar (and the first to the pub, of course). One can hear this on many recordings quite clearly. So in the end, in the system that I teach, I simplify some of the rules to allow for quicker and smoother shifts. Everyone has to learn all the figures, and for that you need only play the Matthew passion, one Handel OPera and one Rameau opera. Unfigured bass is of course another story. My system is designed with a minimum of parallels, and allows the player to learn a more complicated system with very few parallels after the timing has been resolved. But in the beginning, it is not parallel free. After testing out many solutions, I find that there are certain voicings that work better and quicker, and have fewer parallels. Obviously, if you use moveable chords, you will have parallels. Next I would say that if you can play without parallels, you then have the choice. Also, sometimes a bad doubling is worse than a bad parallel. From a professional point of view, some of the orchestras that I play with would definitely not rehire a player who played parallels, so that is a consideration as well. You would not get a note in the mail :) Other orchestras would neither know nor care. Listening to recordings, the thing that bugs me more than the parallels is the timing, and that frequently the lute and the harpsichord (or harp, organ, etc.) play different chords, although this can be very nice in the case of 5/3 plus 6/3 =6/5/3. I think we are fortunate that although there are some prescriptive systems touted about, at this time we can still play pretty much what we want. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
But be forwarned: the theorbo examples are transcirbed without taking a proper re-entrant tuning into consideration ... David - Original Message - From: "ariel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo > Excellent, David, thanks! > > - Original Message - > From: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lutelist Net" ; "ariel" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo > > >>> As you may have read, I'm only interested in a certain repertoire, and I >>> do >> >> There's a German edition with all early 17th century sources of continuo >> nicely listed and analysed. Very thorough, one volume 'Traktate und >> Vorworte' and a second volume 'Notenbeispiele'. Lute sources are >> included. german required, but perhaps what you're looking for: >> >> Irmtraut Freiberg >> "Der Frühe Italienische Generalbass dargestellt anhand der Quellen von >> 1595 bis 1655' >> Olms 2004 >> www.olms.de >> >> It wasn't all that expensive, although I conveniently forgot what I paid >> for it exactly, but in any case it is the kind of book a good library >> should have or can order for you. >> >> David >> >> >> >> David van Ooijen >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> www.davidvanooijen.nl >> >> >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Gracias Alfonso, I'm afraid you've got me wrong here. I'm not interested in learning positions only, as I haven't done that either playing XVI th century music. I was wondering if some fellow player has done a systematic work writing down things in a practical way. As you may know, jazz players do take care of voice leading too, in a different way. It is not about playing a chord here or there according to their will. In that respect there're a few common elements. As you may have read, I'm only interested in a certain repertoire, and I do not expect to become a continuo player in the next future. I'm involved with other repertoires, but I thought it would be good to get familiar with this sort of things too. I'm familiar with g' tunning, know where the notes are, know how things occur in counterpoint terms, so theorbo or guitar I'm afraid I'll keep them aside. In any case, thanks for your comments. I'll see if I get along with it. Salud, Ariel. > Dear Ariel, > > I think that you starting up from a wrong concept. Playing continuo is > not about learning positions for chords but reading a bass and adding the > right harmonies to it as a result of counterpoint and correct voice > leading. If you think in "chords positions" like jazz players do, you > are going to create poor voice-leading and many parallel harmonies. You > will have to be able to develop a very good sense of harmony for each > time and style. Learn early Baroque harmony and counterpoint to start > with (very much different than the "standard" xviii century harmony we > learn in the conservatory) and then apply this knowledge to find the > right connexions of chords indicated by the bass (and cyphers when > present). That is the way to go. With time it will come automatically. > Playing continuo on the lute, archlute or theorbo is a very different > matter as playing chords in baroque guitar style. > I wish you lots of success in your new endeavor, > Many greetings, > > Alfonso > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Dear Ariel, I think that you starting up from a wrong concept. Playing continuo is not about learning positions for chords but reading a bass and adding the right harmonies to it as a result of counterpoint and correct voice leading. If you think in "chords positions" like jazz players do, you are going to create poor voice-leading and many parallel harmonies. You will have to be able to develop a very good sense of harmony for each time and style. Learn early Baroque harmony and counterpoint to start with (very much different than the "standard" xviii century harmony we learn in the conservatory) and then apply this knowledge to find the right connexions of chords indicated by the bass (and cyphers when present). That is the way to go. With time it will come automatically. Playing continuo on the lute, archlute or theorbo is a very different matter as playing chords in baroque guitar style. I wish you lots of success in your new endeavor, Many greetings, Alfonso To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
Hi Ariel, and welcome to the 17th century... Nigel North's book on continuo instruments is worth tracking down. There are second-hand copies available from here: http://www.amazon.com/Continuo-Playing-Archlute-Theorbo-Music/dp/0253314151/ ref=sr_1_1/002-5357019-7358431?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185485761&sr=8-1 It has chapters on theory, practice, organology, and lots of exercises and examples for various instruments. It is not perfect, but is still a good book to read and work through. Although primarily written for the theorbo, the following book is very interesting: http://www.utorpheus.com/utorpheus/product_info.php?cPath=3_35&products_id=4 75 - Cadenze e passage diversi intavolati per Tiorba, dal manoscritto estense G239. It is very like a jazz tutor in that it shows various ways of moving from, for example, a G Major chord to a C Major chord, or a ii/V/I sequence. The theorbo tablature has been transcribed into Grand Staff (treble and bass) so it is possible to utilize these passages on any instrument. This is a great way to learn stylistic passages. Again from Ut Orpheus, but of use only to theorbo players is 'A Tutor For The Theorbo' by Francesca Torelli. Italian or English texts available. I find it a frustrating book, with some questionable statements, but some useful stuff too. There is not much in this area, so it is worth reading as much as you can. Ariel, I know you are a first-rate musician, so I am confidant that the best thing you could do is just get stuck in. Use your ears and brain, start simple and build up complexity as you grow in confidence. You will have no problem at all. Rob MacKillop www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: ariel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 26 July 2007 19:32 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Continuo Dear friends, I've recently become interested in early seventeenth century continuo playing. I don't have professional ambitions with the subject, but I'd like to give it a serious try this summer. I'm starting to collect some published material, and would like to know if there's any book which is a must having. Found some really useful stuff on the web, and would like to know if there's anyone who has done (or knows about) a sort of a chord chart for g' tunning (for a ten course or an archlute, for instances), which takes care of proper voice leading, as you can see in many jazz guitar methods, to give an example. I will really appreciate any advice from players of all levels here! Thanks in advance, Ariel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo
I hope you don't mind if I say a few words. I have a baroque lute (d minor tuining 13 course) and from the first day I had it I began to learn the notes in all the positions on the fretboard I did the same thing on the renaissance lute and also on one vihuela in a (now I have a vihuela in G) and I think that this is the greatest thing to discover yourself the chords in all positions and to improvise on them. Also a very important thing that I've done is that I've learned some grounds like: La Folia, Passacaglia, Ciaconna etc and I was trying to improvise upon them and in this way I've created a very strong image on the base and the function of the chords. ariel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear friends, I've recently become interested in early seventeenth century continuo playing. I don't have professional ambitions with the subject, but I'd like to give it a serious try this summer. I'm starting to collect some published material, and would like to know if there's any book which is a must having. Found some really useful stuff on the web, and would like to know if there's anyone who has done (or knows about) a sort of a chord chart for g' tunning (for a ten course or an archlute, for instances), which takes care of proper voice leading, as you can see in many jazz guitar methods, to give an example. I will really appreciate any advice from players of all levels here! Thanks in advance, Ariel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. --
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
Howard and Mathias: many thanks for your input on my continuo question(s). Much appreciated. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
> Minor seventh chords? I thought they would have been rarely used > back then. One way, that is true, certainly: chords weren't used at all. A minor seventh more often than else resolves into a major sixth. > I have one more question: where do I have to go to find editions of > sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not > some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? Facsimiles by S.P.E.S. or from TREE edition come to mind. Albert Reyerman recently published a facsimile of music (madrigals) by Verovio with parts and figured bass in grand staff and written out lute accompaniment in tablature. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 11:07 America/Los_Angeles, Mathias Rösel wrote: > >> fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and >> ninths > > Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine > chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or > 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz. We were talking about what to do when those notes are in the melody parts. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 06:43 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall wrote: > Minor seventh chords?- I thought they would have been rarely used back > then.- I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a > major third. A dominant seventh is, strictly speaking, a seventh chord on the dominant. Excuse the lecture if you already know about this, but there is a set of defaults known as the "rule of the octave," which says that in the absence of figures you play a root position chord on the all the diatonic notes of the scale except the third and seventh (some sources also include the sixth) which take a first inversion (i.e. the figure 6), and all raised tones also take a 6. So in C major, D, will be minor, and so will E and A if they are root position and not 6 chords (i.e. e minor and a minor and not C major and F major), which will be the case if they have a seven under them. So in this passage from a Telemann recorder sonata in C: E A D G C 7 7 7 7 You get four sevenths in a row, and three of them are minor sevenths. There are similar passages in Corelli, I'm sure. > So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could > have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe > even the last person to have used that sheet music? All are possible, and you probably listed them in decreasing order of probability. And it can get a lot more complicated than that. If you're lucky, the modern editor will tell you all about it. For your immediate purposes, it's not critical; if you're learning how to play a 7-6 suspension, it doesn't really matter who wrote it. > --I have one more question:--where do I have to go to find editions of > sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not > some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? Why not start here: http://icking-music-archive.org There's probably lots of good stuff in Gordon Callon's online archive, for which I don't seem to have the URL. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Oct 29, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Howard Posner wrote: >> Under the bass notes are lots of indications for >> dominant 7th and 9th chords > > probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky... Minor seventh chords? I thought they would have been rarely used back then. I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a major third. > I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, > original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful. So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe even the last person to have used that sheet music? I have one more question: where do I have to go to find editions of sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
> > if the 7th or 9th is being > > supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should > > *not* be playing it? I for one leave them out in that case. My rule is: Play it the easiest possible way. If the upper voice has it, why should I double it? > Surely the mere presence of > a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in > the continuo. You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. In certain cases, I do avoid major thirds for that very reason. With suspensions in particular. Sounds better IMHO when the soloist resolves. On the other hand, if the accompanied voice does not provide thirds figured in the bass line, continuo will make sure to supply them. > fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and > ninths Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
David Rastall wrote: > My attempts to teach myself continuo continue... > > I'm looking at a sonata by Corelli: two instrumental parts plus > basso continuo. Under the bass notes are lots of indications for > dominant 7th and 9th chords probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky... > , at places where the 7ths and 9ths appear > in the instrumental parts. That's no problem. I can find the > harmonies okay, but my question is: if the 7th or 9th is being > supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should > *not* be playing it? I think the definitive answer is "maybe." Surely the mere presence of a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in the continuo. You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. On the other hand, I don't think a figure that doubles a melody note makes the note required in the continuo. It's a matter of style, or, in your case, just what sort of lesson you want to give yourself that day. > I'm > thinking that perhaps those 7's and 9's under the bass are > editorial. Maybe the editor worked backwards: starting with the > upper parts, and figuring the bassline accordingly. Or did Corelli > really want all those 7ths and 9ths doubled in the continuo part? Unless you answer your first question with a hard and fast rule one way or the other, the completeness of the figures doesn't settle the question -- fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and ninths, and more figures don't necessarily mean you have to play them. For what it's worth, Corelli's trio sonatas acquired more figures as the years went on. In Chrysander's preface to his edition (now available in a Dover reprint) he notes that the later Dutch and English editions had more figures than the earlier Italian editions. I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful. In Couperin's publications, the figures amount to a sort of short score; you can just about create the upper lines from the figures. It's probably best to resist the temptation. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
The figures are not editorial. If you look at the facsimiles of Corelli's published opuses (opera?) you'll see that they're all heavily figured. You are not generally required to play ALL the figures, they're just to let you what's happening above. Of course it usually sounds great in Corelli to grab all the suspensions you can, but it works just as well to have the other parts clash against you. One caveat: there are places where a dissonance is set up in the upper voice and not resolved. In this case it's usually good to double the dissonance and resolve it properly. This almost never happens in Corelli, though, as his voice leading is superb. One last thing: they're not really ninth chords like Chuck Berry, in that they don't have a seventh in them and they don't have dominant function. They're just triads in which the octave of the bass is delayed. That's why it's okay to leave it out. On the other hand, since 7 often (Not always) resolves to 6, in this case you really shouldn't play a triad as it never sounds good. If you can't do the 7-6, just play a third above the base. CW To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo with baroque lute
"Charles Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Tree Editions have just published "Technique-building studies for baroque > lutenists" by Wlfred Foxe that contains both scales and cadences in common > keys > together with other exercises. It may be worth looking at Giesbert as well. yes, Giesbert is a good hint, indeed, but solely for chord shapes, not for continuo playing. Furthermore, there are Fundamenta der Lautenmusique, which is a contemporaneous tutor for continuo playing on an 11c lute. Available from www.lautengesellschaft.de (click on Publikationen). Nigel North's fab book on Continuo Playing, which has some lines about on playing continuo on the baroque lute, too. -- All the best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
For some of the early continuo treatises (*not* lute specific) with parallel translations into several modern European languages, see here: http://www.bassus-generalis.org/ Daniel Heiman On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:01:41 +0200 LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > but an excellent book on the subject is "Continuo Playing According > to > > Handel." > > This is available in the Oxford Early Music Series with a running > > > commentary > > by David Ledbetter. A chance to learn continuo playing from a > master. > > Or see Bach's 'General bass regeln'. facsimile and English > translation. > Published in the same series. SImilar content. > > C.P.E. Bach's 'Versuch' might be a little late, but is excellent, of > course. > > Olms in Germany recently published a two part book with all (?) > Italian > 1595-1655 continuo sources translated and supplied with examples. > But the > writer (Irmtraut Freiberg) didn't understand theorbo-tuning. Silly. > Good > thing Kapsberger is included, though. > > David > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: continuo
> but an excellent book on the subject is "Continuo Playing According to > Handel." > This is available in the Oxford Early Music Series with a running > commentary > by David Ledbetter. A chance to learn continuo playing from a master. Or see Bach's 'General bass regeln'. facsimile and English translation. Published in the same series. SImilar content. C.P.E. Bach's 'Versuch' might be a little late, but is excellent, of course. Olms in Germany recently published a two part book with all (?) Italian 1595-1655 continuo sources translated and supplied with examples. But the writer (Irmtraut Freiberg) didn't understand theorbo-tuning. Silly. Good thing Kapsberger is included, though. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
You may also try ABE Books, an excellent source of new and (more often) used books. They are at abebooks.com. You can search by title, author, keyword. Leonard Williams On 10/10/05 3:59 AM, "Benjamin Stehr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Dennis, > >> I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be >> found? > > You can also order it directly from Indiana University Press as "print on > demand": > http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/books/0-253-31415-1.shtml > > Or, if a few weeks are enough for you to work through the book just ask > a local library to get it for you. The ISBN is 0-253-31415-1 > > Benjamin > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Hi Dennis, >I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be >found? You can also order it directly from Indiana University Press as "print on demand": http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/books/0-253-31415-1.shtml Or, if a few weeks are enough for you to work through the book just ask a local library to get it for you. The ISBN is 0-253-31415-1 Benjamin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Doug lives in the Boston area. I heard a rumor he will be teaching at the LSA Lute Fest next Summer in Cleveland. Nancy Carlin > >Hi folks, > > > >Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo? > >Hi Dennis, > >Nigel's books has already been mentioned as a definitive source for study. >But if you're looking for a teacher I can recommend Doug Freundlich. >Trouble is I don't know where either you or he lives so that may be a moot >point. I want to say Doug is in the Chicago area. Someone else can probably >correct me. Barring getting Nigel's book, which I highly recommend, seeking >out a teacher in your area is the best thing to do. > >Regards, >Craig > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Dennis wrote: >I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found? You can find it used from Amazon.co.uk Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Nigel North's book is great. I haven't heard about a new edition, though. Those old French treatises are generally not so helpful (Fleury, Delair etc.) Bartelomi is pretty good though. I think it was 1669. I'm not sure if there's a facsimile available. In addition to those realizations by Castaldi, there's a whole book of villanelle by Kapsberger with guitar alfabeto, b.c. line, and theorbo tablature. It's a little hard to know what to make of them though. Also, you might find Kapsberger book 3 useful. There are two theorbo continuo manuscripts that are quite handy. There's one in the New York Public library that's basically just fingering tables (there are some interesting shapes). The other is the so-called Modena ms, which has many, many ways of ornamenting various. It's a treasure trove of early Italian theorbo style, very florid. It is a really great source, and it's been published in a modern edition. Charlie Weaver To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
I had heard that there were plans for a second edition. Anyone know about it?
There certainly would be planty demand.
- Original Message -
From: guy_and_liz Smith
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; dc
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 3:48 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo
I just checked Amazon.com, and there are a couple of copies available (from
private dealers).
- Original Message -
From: dc<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu<mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 9:34 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo
Thanks to all of you for the fine suggestions. I should have added that
I've been playing continuo on keyboard instruments for years and years, so
what I'm interested in is the specific theorbo-style continuo. I'm in
France (near Fontainebleau).
I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found?
Dennis
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html<http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
--
--
[LUTE] Re: continuo
I just checked Amazon.com, and there are a couple of copies available (from private dealers). - Original Message - From: dc<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu<mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 9:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo Thanks to all of you for the fine suggestions. I should have added that I've been playing continuo on keyboard instruments for years and years, so what I'm interested in is the specific theorbo-style continuo. I'm in France (near Fontainebleau). I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found? Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html<http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> --
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Thanks to all of you for the fine suggestions. I should have added that I've been playing continuo on keyboard instruments for years and years, so what I'm interested in is the specific theorbo-style continuo. I'm in France (near Fontainebleau). I see North's book is out of print. Any advice on where it can be found? Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Doug Freundlich lives in the Boston area. He teaches at the Longy School of Music inCambrudge, near Harvard Square. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 10:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo Dennis wrote: >Hi folks, > >Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo? Hi Dennis, Nigel's books has already been mentioned as a definitive source for study. But if you're looking for a teacher I can recommend Doug Freundlich. Trouble is I don't know where either you or he lives so that may be a moot point. I want to say Doug is in the Chicago area. Someone else can probably correct me. Barring getting Nigel's book, which I highly recommend, seeking out a teacher in your area is the best thing to do. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Dennis wrote: >Hi folks, > >Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo? Hi Dennis, Nigel's books has already been mentioned as a definitive source for study. But if you're looking for a teacher I can recommend Doug Freundlich. Trouble is I don't know where either you or he lives so that may be a moot point. I want to say Doug is in the Chicago area. Someone else can probably correct me. Barring getting Nigel's book, which I highly recommend, seeking out a teacher in your area is the best thing to do. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Hi One thing I did years ago, prior to North's book and other continuo tutors being published was to take madrigal collections with keyboard reductions and read the bottom 3 or 4 parts or just read them from a choral score, then go back and take just the bass line and do an on site realization(protocontinuo) It's interesting to see the formulas they used. Every once in a while I put basso figures under some notes. The AR editions of Caccini, Peri etc. are also fun to go through the figures are minimal as compared to later works by Bach, Teleman etc. The Malpierro Vivaldi series, available in most University Libraries is great too. But, as far as the 17th cent. goes, watch that Purcell - some hairy figures. At the same time I was doing this - late 70's early 80's - I was giving guitar lessons in studios and in the public schools, and worked on harmonizing Go tell Aunt Rhody and other gems, either in jazz chort forms or with a more classical, finger style/bassline block chordal or arpeggiated ala Giuliani approach. . Oh...and do as much harmonic analysis of the period you are working with as you can...Hope this helps SS Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: continuo
Very good recommendations. Castaldi's _Cappricci a due stromenti cioe tiorba e tiorbino e per sonar solo varie sorti di balli fantasticarie_ is also instructive for the songs in it, set for solo voice. The accompaniment is a bass line, beneath which is a realization in tablature for theorbo. The tablature gives some idea of style as well as harmonic realization. The book is a Minkoff Reprint (1981), with ISBN 2-8266-0718-9. Eric Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Sat 10/08, Taco Walstra < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: From: Taco Walstra [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 13:43:41 +0200 Subject: [LUTE] Re: continuo On Saturday 08 October 2005 12:39, you wrote:As said before in the 'new boy's' thread the book by Nigel North is the best starting book. It gives excellent information with some worked out examples in tablature. In my opinion the theoretical chapter on music theory is a bit short, when starting to figure your own unfigured bass part; it's more an outline for people who already know everything about harmonics, 6, 6/4 inversions etc. etc. but this can also be found in other books. The french lute society has also some booklet on continuo, but of course in french and not known to me. A very good book is "Traité d'accompagnement pour le théorbe et le clavessin (Paris, 1690) by Denis Delair, available in facsimile by Minkoff. The English translation is unfortunately not anymore available, but can be found in some university libraries.Complicated but still interesting is Arnold, The art of accompaniment from a thorough bass as practised in the 17th and 18th centuries (Dover publications, 2 paperbacks). Fleury - Methode pour apprendre facilement a toucher le theorbe sur la basse-continue, 1660. Minkoff facsimile. Lots of mistakes, generally not recommended, only historically interesting.Agazzari - del sonare sopra 'l basso con tutti li stromenti e dell' uso loro nel conserto, Sienna 1607. Very interesting essay. Translation can be found in Arnold but also on internet. It's more for historical background because of it's early date, not for learning continuo. The 'English songs 1625-1660', Musica Brittanica is a good starter, because the bass part is worked out in staff, easy songs which fit very good on theorbo.Taco> Hi folks,>> Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo?>> Thanks,>> Dennis>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!
[LUTE] Re: continuo
On Saturday 08 October 2005 12:39, you wrote: As said before in the 'new boy's' thread the book by Nigel North is the best starting book. It gives excellent information with some worked out examples in tablature. In my opinion the theoretical chapter on music theory is a bit short, when starting to figure your own unfigured bass part; it's more an outline for people who already know everything about harmonics, 6, 6/4 inversions etc. etc. but this can also be found in other books. The french lute society has also some booklet on continuo, but of course in french and not known to me. A very good book is "Traité d'accompagnement pour le théorbe et le clavessin (Paris, 1690) by Denis Delair, available in facsimile by Minkoff. The English translation is unfortunately not anymore available, but can be found in some university libraries. Complicated but still interesting is Arnold, The art of accompaniment from a thorough bass as practised in the 17th and 18th centuries (Dover publications, 2 paperbacks). Fleury - Methode pour apprendre facilement a toucher le theorbe sur la basse-continue, 1660. Minkoff facsimile. Lots of mistakes, generally not recommended, only historically interesting. Agazzari - del sonare sopra 'l basso con tutti li stromenti e dell' uso loro nel conserto, Sienna 1607. Very interesting essay. Translation can be found in Arnold but also on internet. It's more for historical background because of it's early date, not for learning continuo. The 'English songs 1625-1660', Musica Brittanica is a good starter, because the bass part is worked out in staff, easy songs which fit very good on theorbo. Taco > Hi folks, > > Are there any tutors for learning continuo on the theorbo? > > Thanks, > > Dennis > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
