Re: APA6 class with LyX?
From: Denis J Navas To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2012 10:23:16 PM Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? "John Kane" escribió en el mensaje de noticias:1355320240.2678.yahoomail...@web162406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com... From: Uwe Stöhr To: obregonma...@gmail.com Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:34:36 PM Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? Am 11.12.2012 01:14, schrieb obregonma...@gmail.com: > Each APA-type journal has its own list of document types that it accepts; these journals are only guided by the APA _style_ conventions. All journals in psychology etc. that I have come across accept tex manuscripts, as long as the tex file contains everything the authors use (i.e., macros) and do not rely on any special latex compiling instructions. Thanks for the clarification. So a layout for APA 6 is indeed useful. However, I won't have time to write it and hope that anybody else can volunteer. if you like, I can review the layout. thanks and regards Uwe Hi Uwe, That would be great. I am not sure that I have enough knowledge to help but I certainly would consider it. One of the reasons I first asked about this was not so much about direct submission for publication though that is very important--the APA 5th Manual says that over a 1000 non-APA journals use the Manual but because every psychology student in North America and from what I see, in at least most of the English-speaking psychological world uses it in preparing papers plus French speaking students in Québec. There are suggestions here and there that the style is used in several (many?) other languages . This also seems to extend to Education, Nursing and a host of other social science disciplines that I am not familiar with. Essentially a paper for these students must conform pretty much exactly to the equivalent of \documentclass[man,12pt]{apa6}. I don't know know if there is a hard-science or math equivalent: Perhaps all undergraduate math student assignments need to match AMA formatting guidelines? At a rough guess, students in my city with a community college, one small and one medium sized unviersty probably submit 5,000 APA formatted papers each year. Also, as others have mentioned, with a bit of minor tweaking APA sets the style for theses or disertations in a broad range of disciplines. Come to think of it, other disciplinces with less stringent stylistic demands may well be very happy with \documentclass[doc,12pt]{apa6}. So my thought was let's catch them while they are young. From my own experience and talking to some current students using APA can be a real hassle and a decent apa6 option in LyX would likely be a real crowd pleaser, especially once they learned about bibtex. Universities here in Nicaragua, use APA style for thesis. Denis J Navas Thanks. I think I may start some kind of list about who used APA style around the world. Unfortunately I only sead Englsih and French so tracking down uses in other languages may be a problem.
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
"John Kane" escribió en el mensaje de noticias:1355320240.2678.yahoomail...@web162406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com... From: Uwe Stöhr To: obregonma...@gmail.com Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:34:36 PM Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? Am 11.12.2012 01:14, schrieb obregonma...@gmail.com: > Each APA-type journal has its own list of document types that it accepts; > these journals are only guided by the APA _style_ conventions. All journals > in psychology etc. that I have come across accept tex manuscripts, as long as > the tex file contains everything the authors use (i.e., macros) and do not > rely on any special latex compiling instructions. Thanks for the clarification. So a layout for APA 6 is indeed useful. However, I won't have time to write it and hope that anybody else can volunteer. if you like, I can review the layout. thanks and regards Uwe Hi Uwe, That would be great. I am not sure that I have enough knowledge to help but I certainly would consider it. One of the reasons I first asked about this was not so much about direct submission for publication though that is very important--the APA 5th Manual says that over a 1000 non-APA journals use the Manual but because every psychology student in North America and from what I see, in at least most of the English-speaking psychological world uses it in preparing papers plus French speaking students in Québec. There are suggestions here and there that the style is used in several (many?) other languages . This also seems to extend to Education, Nursing and a host of other social science disciplines that I am not familiar with. Essentially a paper for these students must conform pretty much exactly to the equivalent of \documentclass[man,12pt]{apa6}. I don't know know if there is a hard-science or math equivalent: Perhaps all undergraduate math student assignments need to match AMA formatting guidelines? At a rough guess, students in my city with a community college, one small and one medium sized unviersty probably submit 5,000 APA formatted papers each year. Also, as others have mentioned, with a bit of minor tweaking APA sets the style for theses or disertations in a broad range of disciplines. Come to think of it, other disciplinces with less stringent stylistic demands may well be very happy with \documentclass[doc,12pt]{apa6}. So my thought was let's catch them while they are young. From my own experience and talking to some current students using APA can be a real hassle and a decent apa6 option in LyX would likely be a real crowd pleaser, especially once they learned about bibtex. Universities here in Nicaragua, use APA style for thesis. Denis J Navas
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
From: Uwe Stöhr To: obregonma...@gmail.com Cc: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 7:34:36 PM Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? Am 11.12.2012 01:14, schrieb obregonma...@gmail.com: > Each APA-type journal has its own list of document types that it accepts; > these journals are only guided by the APA _style_ conventions. All journals > in psychology etc. that I have come across accept tex manuscripts, as long as > the tex file contains everything the authors use (i.e., macros) and do not > rely on any special latex compiling instructions. Thanks for the clarification. So a layout for APA 6 is indeed useful. However, I won't have time to write it and hope that anybody else can volunteer. if you like, I can review the layout. thanks and regards Uwe Hi Uwe, That would be great. I am not sure that I have enough knowledge to help but I certainly would consider it. One of the reasons I first asked about this was not so much about direct submission for publication though that is very important--the APA 5th Manual says that over a 1000 non-APA journals use the Manual but because every psychology student in North America and from what I see, in at least most of the English-speaking psychological world uses it in preparing papers plus French speaking students in Québec. There are suggestions here and there that the style is used in several (many?) other languages . This also seems to extend to Education, Nursing and a host of other social science disciplines that I am not familiar with. Essentially a paper for these students must conform pretty much exactly to the equivalent of \documentclass[man,12pt]{apa6}. I don't know know if there is a hard-science or math equivalent: Perhaps all undergraduate math student assignments need to match AMA formatting guidelines? At a rough guess, students in my city with a community college, one small and one medium sized unviersty probably submit 5,000 APA formatted papers each year. Also, as others have mentioned, with a bit of minor tweaking APA sets the style for theses or disertations in a broad range of disciplines. Come to think of it, other disciplinces with less stringent stylistic demands may well be very happy with \documentclass[doc,12pt]{apa6}. So my thought was let's catch them while they are young. From my own experience and talking to some current students using APA can be a real hassle and a decent apa6 option in LyX would likely be a real crowd pleaser, especially once they learned about bibtex.
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
From: stefano franchi To: Ray Rashif Cc: Jacob Bishop ; obregonma...@gmail.com; "lyx-users@lists.lyx.org" Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 2:01:39 PM Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Ray Rashif wrote: On 11 December 2012 01:21, Jacob Bishop wrote: >> have found very few people in the social sciences who are even aware of >> LaTeX. Not closed minded, just unaware. They use MS Word and Endnote because >> they don't know that there are good/better (free) alternatives. > >And this stems from the fact that social science has negligible need >for (typesetting) equations, because that's what really sets LaTeX >apart. With MS Word you can configure references, cite them and >arrange your document based on styles. For qualitative/descriptive >papers, that is enough. As such, few people find any need to go out of >their way to look for something better. > > Not true. LyX/Latex's benefits are not limited to typesetting equations (although it does a much better job that its competition in that area). A Latex-typeset document looks better in many other respects---from paragraph-division and typesetting (in spite of recent improvements in Word's algorithms), to consistent application of style, down to small but crucial things such as determining font sizes/leading[1]. The reason why Social sciences/Humanities are happy with Word/Endnote is (historically speaking) different: authors used to submit Word files (or, earlier, Wordstar) and the publisher would import and typeset with real typesetting software. Such programs (and still are) were usually very bad at typesetting complex mathematical formulas unless each single formula was tweaked by hand, a very painful and expensive proposition. That was prompted D Knuth to invent TeX---the poor quality of professional typesetting software for math, not the similar but irrelevant problem in word processing program. The lack of equations in the Humanities/Social Sciences made the traditional process working smooth and insured that the typographical quality of publications in the fields was high, or at least acceptable. Authors used primitive (typographically speaking) software, publishers used real typesetters and everyone was happy. Except...that desktop publishing happened and publishers started to cut down on costs by using word as a typesetting program. Even worse, when they started asking for pdf, camera-ready they would provide typographical specs as series of Word instructions, since they do not know any better (all the typesetters having long gone). The result is that the vast majority of Humanities/Social Sciences journal and and increasing number of Humanities *books* are now typographically ugly and often barely readable The same radical cost-cutting measures took place in the Natural sciences/Engineering, of course. But since *they* were already using Latex/TeX, the quality of their journal and books was only minimally affected (although it was: it takes a truly capable typesetter to achieve high results in Latex--relying on standard classes is only the starting point. And most authors not named Knuth are not great typesetters). That's why we in the Humanities are stuck with Word as a publishing tool---because it used to work well as a drafting tool when the industry worked differently, not because we do not use equations. Now, now, remain calm. Of course, just to reinforce your point have a look at http://www.apa.org/pubs/authors/instructions.aspx on page 2 which points out the sorry state at least in the APA journals. The assumption is Word though it is not required otherwise unless some journals do specifically request it. Display Equations We strongly encourage you to use MathType (third-party software) or Equation Editor 3.0 (built into pre-2007 versions of Word) to construct your equations, rather than the equation support that is built into Word 2007 and Word 2010. Equations composed with the built-in Word 2007/Word 2010 equation support are converted to low resolution graphics when they enter the production process and must be rekeyed by the typesetter, which may introduce errors. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
> > Hi Mateo, John, Ray, Jacob (and everyone else), > > It seems APA6 is useful to a lot of people and in particular to you > guys. How about we make a layout for it together then? > I will be happy to help. As soon as I get caught up on some things, I will clean up what I am using and see if we can use or modify it to fit the need. Expect to hear back sometime this weekend (when I get a bit more free time). Jacob
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Hi Wolfgang, I'm glad they were helpful: On Tue, 2012-12-11 at 10:36 +0100, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote: > Am Montag, 10. Dezember 2012, 21:31:25 schrieben Sie: > > Hi, Rob, > > has this been done already: > > TeXLive 2009 is included with Ubuntu 10.04, if you are able to update your > Linux distribution. If not, it is possible to install newer versions of > TeXLive alongside an existing install. I am currently working on a blog > post that explains how this is done and I will post it when finished. A lot of those entries have gotten a bit long in the tooth (though I think everything is still applicable, one of the really nice thing about TeX and LyX, it never feels like there is a system of planned obsolescence). Regarding how to upgrade TeX Live, I did write a post describing how to do it: http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/07/15/latex-custom Though it talks about LaTeX 2010, the instructions can be adapted to nearly any LaTeX distribution, as far as I know. I used the same procedure recently to install TeXLive 2012. (Speaking of which, if you use TeXLive 2012 and luaTeX, be very careful. They've made some big changes, and it's caused a bunch of things to break. Or, at least none of my luaTeX documents will compile anymore; both from LyX and pure TeX. I haven't yet had time to sort out where the problem is.) I'd love to link to a more updated set of instructions. When you finish your post, let me know, I'll to post a link. Cheers, Rob
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/11/2012 09:29 AM, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote: > Am Montag, 10. Dezember 2012, 21:31:25 schrieb Rob Oakes: > Rob, those links are very helpful and clarifying things which are not > obvious to the novice! > Wolfgang If other doubts arrive (probability ~= 1) do not hesitate to use this list. Now that I have used that symbol above I am craving for a coffee. ~=] :-D Regards, -- José Matos
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Am Montag, 10. Dezember 2012, 21:31:25 schrieb Rob Oakes: Rob, those links are very helpful and clarifying things which are not obvious to the novice! Wolfgang > http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2009/11/02/custom-lyx-nih > http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2009/11/14/customize-lyx-character-sty > les (Character styles) > http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/19/latex-cv-part4
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Thanks Uwe for offering to review a layout for APA6. Others here are also interested in making this work, so I'm sure we'll have something soon for you to look at. Mateo. On Tuesday 11 December 2012, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 11.12.2012 01:14, schrieb obregonma...@gmail.com: > > > Each APA-type journal has its own list of document types that it accepts; > > these journals are only guided by the APA _style_ conventions. All journals > > in psychology etc. that I have come across accept tex manuscripts, as long > > as the tex file contains everything the authors use (i.e., macros) and do > > not rely on any special latex compiling instructions. > > Thanks for the clarification. So a layout for APA 6 is indeed useful. > However, I won't have time > to write it and hope that anybody else can volunteer. if you like, I can > review the layout. > > thanks and regards > Uwe >
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Am 11.12.2012 01:14, schrieb obregonma...@gmail.com: Each APA-type journal has its own list of document types that it accepts; these journals are only guided by the APA _style_ conventions. All journals in psychology etc. that I have come across accept tex manuscripts, as long as the tex file contains everything the authors use (i.e., macros) and do not rely on any special latex compiling instructions. Thanks for the clarification. So a layout for APA 6 is indeed useful. However, I won't have time to write it and hope that anybody else can volunteer. if you like, I can review the layout. thanks and regards Uwe
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Each APA-type journal has its own list of document types that it accepts; these journals are only guided by the APA _style_ conventions. All journals in psychology etc. that I have come across accept tex manuscripts, as long as the tex file contains everything the authors use (i.e., macros) and do not rely on any special latex compiling instructions. With regards to the link below, it is only referring to file types that can be uploaded as "supplementary material" and *not* addressing in any way what the manuscript is prepared in. Mateo. On Monday 10 December 2012, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 10.12.2012 02:33, schrieb Kayvan Sylvan: > > > They accept PDF submissions, so I suppose you could use apa6 in LyX if > > it's available and export to PDF. > > This seems to be the case, but only for supplements as I understood this and > TeX is explicitly not > allowed: > http://www.apa.org/pubs/authors/supp-material.aspx > > Maybe I'm wrong and PDfs are also allowed for the main text. If so a layout > for APA 6 would indeed > be useful. > > regards Uwe >
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Am 10.12.2012 02:33, schrieb Kayvan Sylvan: They accept PDF submissions, so I suppose you could use apa6 in LyX if it's available and export to PDF. This seems to be the case, but only for supplements as I understood this and TeX is explicitly not allowed: http://www.apa.org/pubs/authors/supp-material.aspx Maybe I'm wrong and PDfs are also allowed for the main text. If so a layout for APA 6 would indeed be useful. regards Uwe
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/10/2012 05:51 PM, stefano franchi wrote: Cheers, Hullabaloo, caneck, caneck. -- David L. Johnson Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:29 PM, David L. Johnson wrote: > On 12/10/2012 02:01 PM, stefano franchi wrote: > >> >> >> > 8< > >> Such programs [Word and Wordstar] (and still are) were usually very bad >> at typesetting complex mathematical formulas unless each single formula was >> tweaked by hand, a very painful and expensive proposition. That was >> prompted D Knuth to invent TeX---the poor quality of professional >> typesetting software for math, not the similar but irrelevant problem in >> word processing program. >> > > Actually, TeX predated Word, and Wordstar (or Wordperfect). People used > to run it on DECs. While there were other math-typsetting (to use the > phrase loosely) PC programs before TeX became usable on PCs, such as Jim > Milgram's "Techprint" which he wrote for Radio-Shack computers with 28K > ram, most of us used a combination of typewriters and hand-written symbols. > A respectable journal would typeset the paper from the typewritten copy, > but a few insisted on "camera-ready" --- literally --- proofs, which > resulted in published papers and books with handwritten symbols. I suspect > that Knuth was reacting to that mess rather than equations in Word. I > typed my own Ph.D. thesis on an IBM selectric, with those interchangeable > golf-ball fonts, going over each line 2 or 3 times. A nightmare. > > I didn't mean to imply Word (or Wordstar) were used before TeX---just that Word-equivalent software and/or mechanical devices (i.e. typerwriters: I wrote my thesis on a Olivetti Lettera 22. And I was an innovator: my adviser would only handwrite and had a secretary type his books) were the common first step for both scientists and humanists. The publishers then took the second and final step using different tools (and sometimes resorting to handwritten symbols. I remember well that many of may symbolic logic books in college contained such horrors). But whereas publishers usually did a good job with humanists' texts, they often did a terrible one with formulas. Hence, TeX. When the second step was eliminated, scientists were left with TeX, and we poor Humanists were left with Word. LyX is our great white hope. Or the pink one, considering the default background Cheers, S. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic StudiesPh: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 11 December 2012 03:01, stefano franchi wrote: > > Not true. LyX/Latex's benefits are not limited to typesetting equations > (although it does a much better job that its competition in that area). A > Latex-typeset document looks better in many other respects---from > paragraph-division and typesetting (in spite of recent improvements in > Word's algorithms), to consistent application of style, down to small but > crucial things such as determining font sizes/leading[1]. > > The reason why Social sciences/Humanities are happy with Word/Endnote is > (historically speaking) different: authors used to submit Word files (or, > earlier, Wordstar) and the publisher would import and typeset with real > typesetting software. Such programs (and still are) were usually very bad at > typesetting complex mathematical formulas unless each single formula was > tweaked by hand, a very painful and expensive proposition. That was prompted > D Knuth to invent TeX---the poor quality of professional typesetting > software for math, not the similar but irrelevant problem in word processing > program. The lack of equations in the Humanities/Social Sciences made the > traditional process working smooth and insured that the typographical > quality of publications in the fields was high, or at least acceptable. > Authors used primitive (typographically speaking) software, publishers used > real typesetters and everyone was happy. > > Except...that desktop publishing happened and publishers started to cut down > on costs by using word as a typesetting program. Even worse, when they > started asking for pdf, camera-ready they would provide typographical > specs as series of Word instructions, since they do not know any better (all > the typesetters having long gone). The result is that the vast majority of > Humanities/Social Sciences journal and and increasing number of Humanities > *books* are now typographically ugly and often barely readable > > The same radical cost-cutting measures took place in the Natural > sciences/Engineering, of course. But since *they* were already using > Latex/TeX, the quality of their journal and books was only minimally > affected (although it was: it takes a truly capable typesetter to achieve > high results in Latex--relying on standard classes is only the starting > point. And most authors not named Knuth are not great typesetters). > > That's why we in the Humanities are stuck with Word as a publishing > tool---because it used to work well as a drafting tool when the industry > worked differently, not because we do not use equations. > > Thank you Stefano - that was exactly the background story I was hoping someone would fill in. My brief statement on equations was just a layman's generalisation on why faculty would go through the trouble to suggest LaTeX to students (surely, STEM lecturers would have _more_ reason). TeX/LaTeX/LyX is definitely not _only_ about equations. I recently edited and "typeset" (like you said, no one better than Knuth, especially not someone who only played with his father's relic typewriter as a toddler) a social science dissertation completely in LyX with some LaTeX fiddling. -- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/10/2012 03:07 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote: On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:42 AM, wrote: I think people are missing the point here ... Lyx is *great* for writing and getting references and labels right! This goes for APA journals as much as for math/engineering journals. I have co-authored several articles for APA journals and the pay-off of writing them in Lyx and then getting them into LaTeX or PDF has been wonderful, especially as I have *not* had to make final "typo" changes/corrections to the submitted/reviewed article before printing. So, *please* keep the APA6 layout and corresponding bibtex referencing up-to-date! Hi Mateo, John, Ray, Jacob (and everyone else), It seems APA6 is useful to a lot of people and in particular to you guys. How about we make a layout for it together then? I know absolutely nothing about APA6 (or psychology for that matter), little about layouts, and very little about document classes. But I am confident that we can do it. Look in your library directory (go to Help > About if you don't know where it is) and then go to layouts/apa.layout. Open it up. It shouldn't look too scary to you. It looks more like English to me than programming (thank you to the LyX developers who have made it look so nice and flexible). So this is an opportunity where even if you don't know/like programming, you can help out. But wait, that's not all. If we learn the LyX layout format, in addition to us making an apa6 layout (and thus helping ourselves and potentially a lot of others), we'll learn how to customize LyX layouts to our liking. This can be very useful and can make using LyX a lot more fun and personalized. The developers around here are extremely nice and generous and would help us out when we get stuck. But they are involved in a million things and it's not clear at all to me that they should stop doing those things in order to make this layout, especially when I'm sure we're capable of doing it. Who's in? I'm happy to give loads of advice, too. Here's how I'd start: Get some kind of example LaTeX file that exercises as much of what APA6 provides as is possible. Copy the existing apa.layout file to apa6.layout and change the second line to: # \DeclareLaTeXClass[apa6]{article (APA v6)} Now try to load your example file in LyX. What doesn't work will be what needs fixing. There will be more to do, as well, but you will get a long way just doing that much. Oh, and I'd avoid the biblatex bits of APA6 for now. Use something like: ClassOptions Other "natbib" End to force the use of that option. Richard
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
If you're going to go the customization route, this might be of help: http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2009/11/02/custom-lyx-nih It talks about creating a custom layout for an existing document class. Related posts with more examples can be found at: http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2009/11/14/customize-lyx-character-styles (Character styles) http://blog.oak-tree.us/index.php/2010/05/19/latex-cv-part4 (Second example of how to create a layout for an existing document class. The other posts in the same series how to write a custom document class.) Best of luck in the endeavor!
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:42 AM, wrote: > I think people are missing the point here ... Lyx is *great* for writing and > getting references and labels right! This goes for APA journals as much as > for math/engineering journals. > > I have co-authored several articles for APA journals and the pay-off of > writing them in Lyx and then getting them into LaTeX or PDF has been > wonderful, especially as I have *not* had to make final "typo" > changes/corrections to the submitted/reviewed article before printing. > > So, *please* keep the APA6 layout and corresponding bibtex referencing > up-to-date! Hi Mateo, John, Ray, Jacob (and everyone else), It seems APA6 is useful to a lot of people and in particular to you guys. How about we make a layout for it together then? I know absolutely nothing about APA6 (or psychology for that matter), little about layouts, and very little about document classes. But I am confident that we can do it. Look in your library directory (go to Help > About if you don't know where it is) and then go to layouts/apa.layout. Open it up. It shouldn't look too scary to you. It looks more like English to me than programming (thank you to the LyX developers who have made it look so nice and flexible). So this is an opportunity where even if you don't know/like programming, you can help out. But wait, that's not all. If we learn the LyX layout format, in addition to us making an apa6 layout (and thus helping ourselves and potentially a lot of others), we'll learn how to customize LyX layouts to our liking. This can be very useful and can make using LyX a lot more fun and personalized. The developers around here are extremely nice and generous and would help us out when we get stuck. But they are involved in a million things and it's not clear at all to me that they should stop doing those things in order to make this layout, especially when I'm sure we're capable of doing it. Who's in? Scott
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/10/2012 02:29 PM, David L. Johnson wrote: On 12/10/2012 02:01 PM, stefano franchi wrote: The same radical cost-cutting measures took place in the Natural sciences/Engineering, of course. But since *they* were already using Latex/TeX, the quality of their journal and books was only minimally affected With the exception of those journals and texts that were typeset with a full array of symbols, the use of TeX has vastly improved the appearance of papers (if not the content). The AMS journals from the 1970s and before were works of art, but even most Springer-Verlag monographs were truly ugly. What always amuses me is that there seem to be several journals that won't accept LaTeX but then when you get the proofs, it's obvious it's LaTeX. You see the filename at the top of the page. Fortunately, there seems to be a bit of a trend here, and people will get it figured out. Richard
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/10/2012 02:01 PM, stefano franchi wrote: 8< Such programs [Word and Wordstar] (and still are) were usually very bad at typesetting complex mathematical formulas unless each single formula was tweaked by hand, a very painful and expensive proposition. That was prompted D Knuth to invent TeX---the poor quality of professional typesetting software for math, not the similar but irrelevant problem in word processing program. Actually, TeX predated Word, and Wordstar (or Wordperfect). People used to run it on DECs. While there were other math-typsetting (to use the phrase loosely) PC programs before TeX became usable on PCs, such as Jim Milgram's "Techprint" which he wrote for Radio-Shack computers with 28K ram, most of us used a combination of typewriters and hand-written symbols. A respectable journal would typeset the paper from the typewritten copy, but a few insisted on "camera-ready" --- literally --- proofs, which resulted in published papers and books with handwritten symbols. I suspect that Knuth was reacting to that mess rather than equations in Word. I typed my own Ph.D. thesis on an IBM selectric, with those interchangeable golf-ball fonts, going over each line 2 or 3 times. A nightmare. I experienced the full range of mathematical text preparation. I've written papers on the typewriter, using hand-drawn symbols and markups for a typesetter, Techprint (another nightmare), 2 or 3 PC-based, non-graphical programs that produced half-assed output, a couple of WYSIWYG programs, plain AMS-TeX using a text editor with occasional previews, to LyX. Clearly the present situation has been the only reasonable one. The same radical cost-cutting measures took place in the Natural sciences/Engineering, of course. But since *they* were already using Latex/TeX, the quality of their journal and books was only minimally affected With the exception of those journals and texts that were typeset with a full array of symbols, the use of TeX has vastly improved the appearance of papers (if not the content). The AMS journals from the 1970s and before were works of art, but even most Springer-Verlag monographs were truly ugly. -- David L. Johnson The motor car reflects our standard of living and gauges the speed of our present life. It long ago ran down Simple Living, and never halted to inquire about the prostrate figure which fell as its victim. -- Warren G. Harding
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Ray Rashif wrote: > On 11 December 2012 01:21, Jacob Bishop wrote: > > have found very few people in the social sciences who are even aware of > > LaTeX. Not closed minded, just unaware. They use MS Word and Endnote > because > > they don't know that there are good/better (free) alternatives. > > And this stems from the fact that social science has negligible need > for (typesetting) equations, because that's what really sets LaTeX > apart. With MS Word you can configure references, cite them and > arrange your document based on styles. For qualitative/descriptive > papers, that is enough. As such, few people find any need to go out of > their way to look for something better. > > Not true. LyX/Latex's benefits are not limited to typesetting equations (although it does a much better job that its competition in that area). A Latex-typeset document looks better in many other respects---from paragraph-division and typesetting (in spite of recent improvements in Word's algorithms), to consistent application of style, down to small but crucial things such as determining font sizes/leading[1]. The reason why Social sciences/Humanities are happy with Word/Endnote is (historically speaking) different: authors used to submit Word files (or, earlier, Wordstar) and the publisher would import and typeset with real typesetting software. Such programs (and still are) were usually very bad at typesetting complex mathematical formulas unless each single formula was tweaked by hand, a very painful and expensive proposition. That was prompted D Knuth to invent TeX---the poor quality of professional typesetting software for math, not the similar but irrelevant problem in word processing program. The lack of equations in the Humanities/Social Sciences made the traditional process working smooth and insured that the typographical quality of publications in the fields was high, or at least acceptable. Authors used primitive (typographically speaking) software, publishers used real typesetters and everyone was happy. Except...that desktop publishing happened and publishers started to cut down on costs by using word as a typesetting program. Even worse, when they started asking for pdf, camera-ready they would provide typographical specs as series of Word instructions, since they do not know any better (all the typesetters having long gone). The result is that the vast majority of Humanities/Social Sciences journal and and increasing number of Humanities *books* are now typographically ugly and often barely readable The same radical cost-cutting measures took place in the Natural sciences/Engineering, of course. But since *they* were already using Latex/TeX, the quality of their journal and books was only minimally affected (although it was: it takes a truly capable typesetter to achieve high results in Latex--relying on standard classes is only the starting point. And most authors not named Knuth are not great typesetters). That's why we in the Humanities are stuck with Word as a publishing tool---because it used to work well as a drafting tool when the industry worked differently, not because we do not use equations. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic StudiesPh: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 11 December 2012 01:21, Jacob Bishop wrote: > have found very few people in the social sciences who are even aware of > LaTeX. Not closed minded, just unaware. They use MS Word and Endnote because > they don't know that there are good/better (free) alternatives. And this stems from the fact that social science has negligible need for (typesetting) equations, because that's what really sets LaTeX apart. With MS Word you can configure references, cite them and arrange your document based on styles. For qualitative/descriptive papers, that is enough. As such, few people find any need to go out of their way to look for something better. -- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
I recently shifted from Engineering to Psychology (actually Engineering Education, but I am currently preparing a publication for an APA journal). I used LyX for my masters' thesis, and LaTeX is the only acceptable thesis format for some of the Engineering departments. When professors started requiring that I write my papers using APA6, I quickly tried to figure out how that could be done with LyX. I was not about to abandon my favorite document preparation system for nothing. I have found there are basically two routes you can go. There is an apa6e class and an apa6 class. The apa6e class is a minimal class that incorporates apa6 guidelines for formatting titles, but leaves references and things to the user to configure. The apa6 class is a bit more thorough. It is an updated version of the apa class and as such has three modes for preparing an article. It adheres fairly strictly to apa guidelines and the reference format is hard-coded. I recently had to borrow some code from this class and combine it with the Engineering dissertation template from my u to get a suitable dissertation format that makes both the college of Engineering, and the department (of Engineering Education) happy. I would also mention that for the publication I am preparing, we use structural equation diagrams that I prepare with TikZ and go right into the LyX document. I would hate to have to do those diagrams any other way. So, while it is unfortunate that we do not have an official apa6 template with LyX, there are LaTeX users who do apa6 (like me). You can use that class with any document. To get it to work, I basically just copied the LyX layout file from the apa class and made a few modifications. Then, I downloaded the apa6 class file and used it. This works reasonably well. By the way, it is not the APA who decides whether to accept LaTeX or not, it is each journal individually. Frankly, I think this is sort of a chicken and the egg problem. If enough users wanted to submit with LaTeX, journals would accept it, but many won't bother until there are more LaTeX users. Also, I have found very few people in the social sciences who are even aware of LaTeX. Not closed minded, just unaware. They use MS Word and Endnote because they don't know that there are good/better (free) alternatives. Jacob
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
I think people are missing the point here ... Lyx is *great* for writing and getting references and labels right! This goes for APA journals as much as for math/engineering journals. I have co-authored several articles for APA journals and the pay-off of writing them in Lyx and then getting them into LaTeX or PDF has been wonderful, especially as I have *not* had to make final "typo" changes/corrections to the submitted/reviewed article before printing. So, *please* keep the APA6 layout and corresponding bibtex referencing up-to-date! Mateo. On Monday 10 December 2012, Richard Heck wrote: > On 12/09/2012 10:27 PM, David L. Johnson wrote: > > On 12/09/2012 07:23 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > >> I am opposed to this. What is the benefit of a layout for a journal > >> submission class you cannot use for submission to that journal? Why > >> should we invest time to write and, more important, to maintain it? > > > > My understanding is that APA is used by a wide range of humanistic and > > social sciences publications. It is possible that some of them would > > indeed accept Latex (though maybe not likely), and others might well > > accept pdf files, as limiting as that may seem. > > > And some people might want to use the APA class for their own reasons, > or maybe the APA will decide to start accepting LaTeX again, or who > knows what. The point was that if someone wants to write an updated > layout file, they can do so, and we'll be happy to include it with LyX. > But it probably does seem like something that's not very pressing. > > Richard > >
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/09/2012 10:27 PM, David L. Johnson wrote: On 12/09/2012 07:23 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: I am opposed to this. What is the benefit of a layout for a journal submission class you cannot use for submission to that journal? Why should we invest time to write and, more important, to maintain it? My understanding is that APA is used by a wide range of humanistic and social sciences publications. It is possible that some of them would indeed accept Latex (though maybe not likely), and others might well accept pdf files, as limiting as that may seem. And some people might want to use the APA class for their own reasons, or maybe the APA will decide to start accepting LaTeX again, or who knows what. The point was that if someone wants to write an updated layout file, they can do so, and we'll be happy to include it with LyX. But it probably does seem like something that's not very pressing. Richard
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/09/2012 07:23 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: I am opposed to this. What is the benefit of a layout for a journal submission class you cannot use for submission to that journal? Why should we invest time to write and, more important, to maintain it? My understanding is that APA is used by a wide range of humanistic and social sciences publications. It is possible that some of them would indeed accept Latex (though maybe not likely), and others might well accept pdf files, as limiting as that may seem. OTOH, I don't write for any such publications; those I do write for usually insist on Latex. I also have no idea whether this has any relevance outside of the US. -- David L. Johnson Department of Mathematics Lehigh University
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
They accept PDF submissions, so I suppose you could use apa6 in LyX if it's available and export to PDF. Sent from my iPhone On Dec 9, 2012, at 16:24, "Uwe Stöhr" wrote: > Am 09.12.2012 15:27, schrieb John Kane: >> Thanks for the replies. While I understand the point in the last comment at >> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 it is a pity. I believe I have seen a >> reference, possibly in APA5 or APA6 that suggests that well over 1,000 >> journals use APA Style , or some reasonable facsimile thereof. > > Fine, but what should we do? If APA is no longer accepting LaTeX you will > have to use LibreOffice or something similar instead of LyX. > >> > With that said if we had a layout for apa6 contributed we would accept >>> it. So just because no one is working on it that is not a reason for >>> despair. :-) > > I am opposed to this. What is the benefit of a layout for a journal > submission class you cannot use for submission to that journal? Why should we > invest time to write and, more important, to maintain it? > > regards Uwe
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Am 09.12.2012 15:27, schrieb John Kane: Thanks for the replies. While I understand the point in the last comment at http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 it is a pity. I believe I have seen a reference, possibly in APA5 or APA6 that suggests that well over 1,000 journals use APA Style , or some reasonable facsimile thereof. Fine, but what should we do? If APA is no longer accepting LaTeX you will have to use LibreOffice or something similar instead of LyX. > With that said if we had a layout for apa6 contributed we would accept it. So just because no one is working on it that is not a reason for despair. :-) I am opposed to this. What is the benefit of a layout for a journal submission class you cannot use for submission to that journal? Why should we invest time to write and, more important, to maintain it? regards Uwe
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Thanks Scot and Ray. Pity. John Kane Kingston ON Canada > -Original Message- > From: schivmeis...@gmail.com > Sent: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 02:02:01 +0800 > To: skost...@lyx.org > Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? > > On 9 December 2012 00:45, Scott Kostyshak wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:30 AM, John Kane wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >>> Would anyone know of any work being done on this? >> >> No work is currently being done. See the last comment here for the >> reason why: >> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 >> >> And see this ticket for the main request: >> http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8391 >> >> Best, >> >> Scott > > I came across this recently as I was searching for some answers but > this is only LaTeX-specific: > mirror.hmc.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/apa6/apa6.pdf > > May help to understand the situation at least. > > > -- > GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1 FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
Thanks for the replies. While I understand the point in the last comment at http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 it is a pity. I believe I have seen a reference, possibly in APA5 or APA6 tthat suggests that well over 1,000 journals use APA Style , or some reasonable facsimile thereof. Who knows how many academic institutions and fields of study require it? In fact, it was a nursing student's request that prompted my question. Nursing uses APA? Anyway I did a few updates to an OpenOffice.org APA 5 template that seems to be okay for student use with APA 6 and passed it on but it seems a shame not to catch a few users while they're young. From: José Matos To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 1:49:24 PM Subject: Re: APA6 class with LyX? On 12/08/2012 04:45 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:30 AM, John Kane wrote: > > Hi John, > >> Would anyone know of any work being done on this? > No work is currently being done. See the last comment here for the reason why: > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 > > And see this ticket for the main request: > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8391 > > Best, > > Scott With that said if we had a layout for apa6 contributed we would accept it. So just because no one is working on it that is not a reason for despair. :-) -- José Matos
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 12/08/2012 04:45 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:30 AM, John Kane wrote: > > Hi John, > >> Would anyone know of any work being done on this? > No work is currently being done. See the last comment here for the reason why: > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 > > And see this ticket for the main request: > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8391 > > Best, > > Scott With that said if we had a layout for apa6 contributed we would accept it. So just because no one is working on it that is not a reason for despair. :-) -- José Matos
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On 9 December 2012 00:45, Scott Kostyshak wrote: > On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:30 AM, John Kane wrote: > > Hi John, > >> Would anyone know of any work being done on this? > > No work is currently being done. See the last comment here for the reason why: > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 > > And see this ticket for the main request: > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8391 > > Best, > > Scott I came across this recently as I was searching for some answers but this is only LaTeX-specific: mirror.hmc.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/apa6/apa6.pdf May help to understand the situation at least. -- GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
Re: APA6 class with LyX?
On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 10:30 AM, John Kane wrote: Hi John, > Would anyone know of any work being done on this? No work is currently being done. See the last comment here for the reason why: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8187 And see this ticket for the main request: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/8391 Best, Scott
APA6 class with LyX?
Some time ago the American Psychological Association came out with the 6th edition of its publication manual. There is a apa6 class for Latex:m See http://www.findbestopensource.com/product/apa6e for a quick ref. So far I have not seen anythimg much about a layout for LyX other than a note from about October of 2012 saying that there is no Lyx layout. Would anyone know of any work being done on this? I don't really need it myself as while I tend to use APA style I'm not submitting papers either for publication nor in a class that demands APA but I couple of times recently I have wanted to be able to recommend Lyx for a student who needs it and could not. There is just enough difference between apa and apa6 that it would not be practical for a novice to even think of using LyX. Thanks John Kane Kingston ON Canada GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM®, MSN® Messenger, Yahoo!® Messenger, ICQ®, Google Talk™ and most webmails