Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Thomas Kelly]

  My apologies to all, especially to John Jaser.
  While mulling over a post on Methane As A Renewable,
I mistakenly posted my thoughts on methane being a "no-brainer"
on the wrong thread.
  Irony, no? Me scatter-braining while being critical of
no-braining.

   As to methanol as a motor fuel:
   Relatively safe?  Yes, relative to other motor fuels
   Easily transported?   Yes, in the tanks of vehicles.
   There's a good deal of debate here in NY about
   transport of crude oil in barges on the Hudson River,
   by rail, and in tanker trucks. Methanol, while toxic to 
humans,

   does not pose the same environmental threat that
   crude oil does. Always a concern w. transport.
   Homebrewing:  ???
   Problem: material compatibility

   Methanol, like other renewables, is probably best produced
locally. The methanol I purchase to make biodiesel costs $160-$200
(US) per 55 gal. drum. Much of the cost reflects costs associated
with transport.  The barrel that cost me $200 sold for $110 in 
Buffalo, NY
where it arrived by rail. I was told that it sold for $80-90 on the 
Gulf
coast where it arrived by tanker. Not only is there a financial cost 
associated w.

transport, but a great amount of fuel "wasted" delivering fuel.
   Sorry, just a commercial for local, small-scale energy production.
Preaching to the choir.
Tom






On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:33:57 -0500
 Tom  wrote:

Aaah, methane is intriguing.
Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, 
the methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so 
different from others that many would assign them to their own 
kingdom.
 As to methane being easily transported consider  where propane 
and natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing 
energy density, methane "resists" liquefaction, requiring tremendous 
pressure. This seems to be the "fly in the ointment". Unliquefied, a 
tankful of methane doesn't go far. 
  Methane has value as a renewable fuel.

It is captured and used at waste treatment
plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured 
at landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm 
that harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the 
methane to generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats 
the water used to sanitize the milking area. They don't use the 
methane in their cars or farm machinery however.

 Relatively safe.Hmmm
 Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. "Ocean burps" from vast 
storehouses of methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with 
contributing significantly to the end of the last ice age. The 
release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of 
events that is accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once 
considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into rivers. When 
it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal 
combustion engines the "waste" became valuable.
Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same 
financial opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel
 a "renewable fuel". Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast 
stores of methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's 
already being proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen 
the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases seem to find 
their way out. Not so good in the case of methane.
 Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's 
produced to generate electricity seems appropriate.

  Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing.
   Best,
 Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 2:50 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 


Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Hi Tom:


Sorry should have added the context.  Intriguing as perhaps a better 
common denominator than hydrogen itself.   e.g. can be easily 
transported;  can be made from biogas;  can power a fuel cell 
directly or indirectly; relatively safe







From: Tom
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎2‎:‎49‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues 
you?
Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would 
Methanoic Acid.

Ethane: C2H6,  Ethanol: C2H5OH  each have 6 H's per molecule.
 Is there something about the number 4
itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom?
   Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we 
increase the size of the carbon chain.
  Just wondering, 
   Tom


-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 12:58 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[John Jaser]

That interview with Dr. Olah was a good read.  Thanks Darryl.






From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎November‎ ‎27‎, ‎2014 ‎1‎:‎24‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Has anyone read "Beyond Oil and Gas:  The Methanol Economy"?

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/

http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224

If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter?

Darryl

On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote:
> Tom:
>
>
> Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post.  I am most certainly not a 
> chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very  interesting 
> candidate for energy storage.  Since it can be made from a variety of 
> renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an 
> easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen.  Transprots and pumps 
> well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas.  What to 
> do with it once you make it?  The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed 
> further looks promising.
>
>
> Thanks again for the conversation!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Tom
> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎5‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Aaah, methane is intriguing.
> Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the 
> methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from 
> others that many would assign them to their own kingdom.
>As to methane being easily transported consider  where propane and 
> natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, 
> methane "resists" liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to 
> be the "fly in the ointment". Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go 
> far.
> Methane has value as a renewable fuel.
> It is captured and used at waste treatment
> plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at 
> landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that 
> harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to 
> generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to 
> sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm 
> machinery however.
>Relatively safe.Hmmm
>Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. "Ocean burps" from vast storehouses of 
> methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly 
> to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs 
> is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. 
> Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into 
> rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for 
> internal combustion engines the "waste" became valuable.
> Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial 
> opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel
>  a "renewable fuel". Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of 
> methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being 
> proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage 
> from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in 
> the case of methane.
>Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced 
> to generate electricity seems appropriate.
> Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing.
>  Best,
>Tom
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Darryl McMahon]

I have not yet started in on racing forums, as I understand they use 
100% methanol as fuel, and my interest is using a mix of methanol (up to 
50% possibly) in order to avoid making engine modifications while not 
sacrificing engine life.


The idea of the methanol energy economy is way beyond my current 
practical interest, but definitely of academic interest.


Darryl

On 28/11/2014 1:08 PM, Michele Stephenson wrote:

Have you looked on drag racing forums about methanol for race fuel?  And they 
discuss the effects on the motor and modifications required.

Michele


On Nov 27, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Darryl McMahon"  wrote:

Has anyone read "Beyond Oil and Gas:  The Methanol Economy"?

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/

http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224

If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter?

Darryl


On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote:
Tom:


Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post.  I am most certainly not a 
chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very  interesting 
candidate for energy storage.  Since it can be made from a variety of renewable 
and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier 
economic target to produce than pure hydrogen.  Transprots and pumps well, 
compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas.  What to do with 
it once you make it?  The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further 
looks promising.


Thanks again for the conversation!






From: Tom
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎5‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Aaah, methane is intriguing.
Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the 
methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others 
that many would assign them to their own kingdom.
   As to methane being easily transported consider  where propane and natural gas can be 
compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, methane "resists" liquefaction, 
requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be the "fly in the ointment". Unliquefied, a 
tankful of methane doesn't go far.
Methane has value as a renewable fuel.
It is captured and used at waste treatment
plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at 
landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that 
harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to 
generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to 
sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm 
machinery however.
   Relatively safe.Hmmm
   Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. "Ocean burps" from vast storehouses of methyl 
hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly to the end of the last ice 
age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is 
accelerating global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped 
into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for internal combustion 
engines the "waste" became valuable.
Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial 
opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel
 a "renewable fuel". Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of 
methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. They can 
do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from pipelines compressed gases 
seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case of methane.
   Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to 
generate electricity seems appropriate.
Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing.
 Best,
   Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Michele Stephenson]

Have you looked on drag racing forums about methanol for race fuel?  And they 
discuss the effects on the motor and modifications required. 

Michele

> On Nov 27, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "Darryl McMahon"  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone read "Beyond Oil and Gas:  The Methanol Economy"?
> 
> http://www.technologyreview.com/news/405436/the-methanol-economy/
> 
> http://www.amazon.ca/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224
> 
> If so, any thoughts about the book or subject matter?
> 
> Darryl
> 
>> On 27/11/2014 12:55 PM, John Jaser wrote:
>> Tom:
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post.  I am most certainly not a 
>> chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very  interesting 
>> candidate for energy storage.  Since it can be made from a variety of 
>> renewable and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an 
>> easier economic target to produce than pure hydrogen.  Transprots and pumps 
>> well, compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas.  What to 
>> do with it once you make it?  The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed 
>> further looks promising.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks again for the conversation!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: Tom
>> Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎5‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
>> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Aaah, methane is intriguing.
>> Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the 
>> methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from 
>> others that many would assign them to their own kingdom.
>>   As to methane being easily transported consider  where propane and 
>> natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, 
>> methane "resists" liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to 
>> be the "fly in the ointment". Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go 
>> far.
>>Methane has value as a renewable fuel.
>> It is captured and used at waste treatment
>> plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at 
>> landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that 
>> harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to 
>> generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to 
>> sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm 
>> machinery however.
>>   Relatively safe.Hmmm
>>   Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. "Ocean burps" from vast storehouses of 
>> methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing 
>> significantly to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from 
>> thawing peat bogs is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating 
>> global warming. Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil 
>> refining, dumped into rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace 
>> ethanol as fuel for internal combustion engines the "waste" became valuable.
>> Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial 
>> opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel
>>  a "renewable fuel". Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of 
>> methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being 
>> proposed. They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage 
>> from pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in 
>> the case of methane.
>>   Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced 
>> to generate electricity seems appropriate.
>>Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing.
>> Best,
>>   Tom
>> 
> ___
> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[John Jaser]

Tom:


Thanks for the abundant knowledge in your post.  I am most certainly not a 
chemist, but have always considered liquid methanol a very  interesting 
candidate for energy storage.  Since it can be made from a variety of renewable 
and non renewable means (wood, coal, biogas, etc) it seems like an easier 
economic target to produce than pure hydrogen.  Transprots and pumps well, 
compared to what would be needed for compressed hydrogen gas.  What to do with 
it once you make it?  The indirect methanol fuel cell, if developed further 
looks promising.


Thanks again for the conversation!






From: Tom
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎5‎:‎33‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Aaah, methane is intriguing.
Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the 
methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others 
that many would assign them to their own kingdom.
  As to methane being easily transported consider  where propane and 
natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, 
methane "resists" liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be 
the "fly in the ointment". Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. 
   Methane has value as a renewable fuel.
It is captured and used at waste treatment
plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at 
landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that 
harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to 
generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to 
sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm 
machinery however.
  Relatively safe.Hmmm
  Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. "Ocean burps" from vast storehouses of 
methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly 
to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs 
is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. 
Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into 
rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for 
internal combustion engines the "waste" became valuable.
Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial 
opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel
 a "renewable fuel". Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of 
methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. 
They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from 
pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case 
of methane.
  Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to 
generate electricity seems appropriate.
   Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing.
Best,
  Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 2:50 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Hi Tom:


Sorry should have added the context.  Intriguing as perhaps a better common 
denominator than hydrogen itself.   e.g. can be easily transported;  can be 
made from biogas;  can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe






From: Tom
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎2‎:‎49‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you?
Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic 
Acid.
Ethane: C2H6,  Ethanol: C2H5OH  each have 6 H's per molecule.
  Is there something about the number 4
itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom?
Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size 
of the carbon chain.
   Just wondering, 
Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 12:58 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Methanol is super intriguing…  the amount of hydrogen per molecule.






From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎06‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Jan, thanks for the quick response.

Not scaring me off.  I have read something which suggests adding 
methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. 
  Lower energy content was known and accepted.  I generally use 
synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. 
  Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic 
lubrication oils.

So, still curious.  Not a front-burner issue for me.  So 3 lines of 
research at this point.

1) what are enviro pros/cons of using

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Tom]

Aaah, methane is intriguing.
Biogas is a metabolic product of one of the most ancient life forms, the 
methanocreatrices. Anaerobic chemoautotrophic bacteria so different from others 
that many would assign them to their own kingdom.
  As to methane being easily transported consider  where propane and 
natural gas can be compressed to liquids, greatly increasing energy density, 
methane "resists" liquefaction, requiring tremendous pressure. This seems to be 
the "fly in the ointment". Unliquefied, a tankful of methane doesn't go far. 
   Methane has value as a renewable fuel.
It is captured and used at waste treatment
plants to generate electricity. Methane is currently being captured at 
landfills and used to generate electricity. I know of a dairy farm that 
harvests methane from the manure the cows produce. They use the methane to 
generate electricity. The heat from the generators heats the water used to 
sanitize the milking area. They don't use the methane in their cars or farm 
machinery however.
  Relatively safe.Hmmm
  Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. "Ocean burps" from vast storehouses of 
methyl hydrates/clathrates have been credited with contributing significantly 
to the end of the last ice age. The release of methane from thawing peat bogs 
is a part of the cascade of events that is accelerating global warming. 
Gasoline was once considered a waste product of oil refining, dumped into 
rivers. When it was pointed out that it could replace ethanol as fuel for 
internal combustion engines the "waste" became valuable.
Imagine what might happen if methane gas presented the same financial 
opportunities by its use as vehicle fuel
 a "renewable fuel". Do we dare the oil giants to tap the vast stores of 
methane currently trapped safely under the ocean? It's already being proposed. 
They can do it safely, right? Have you seen the data about leakage from 
pipelines compressed gases seem to find their way out. Not so good in the case 
of methane.
  Capturing methane at its source and using it close to where it's produced to 
generate electricity seems appropriate.
   Sorry to carry on, but you did say methane was intriguing.
Best,
  Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 2:50 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Hi Tom:


Sorry should have added the context.  Intriguing as perhaps a better common 
denominator than hydrogen itself.   e.g. can be easily transported;  can be 
made from biogas;  can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe






From: Tom
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎2‎:‎49‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you?
Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic 
Acid.
Ethane: C2H6,  Ethanol: C2H5OH  each have 6 H's per molecule.
  Is there something about the number 4
itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom?
Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size 
of the carbon chain.
   Just wondering, 
Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 12:58 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Methanol is super intriguing…  the amount of hydrogen per molecule.






From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎06‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Jan, thanks for the quick response.

Not scaring me off.  I have read something which suggests adding 
methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. 
  Lower energy content was known and accepted.  I generally use 
synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. 
  Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic 
lubrication oils.

So, still curious.  Not a front-burner issue for me.  So 3 lines of 
research at this point.

1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) 
as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel

2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance?  Engine will 
not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline 
blend.  I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust 
automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far 
regarding methanol blend).  I am assuming the fuel computer is working 
on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol 
and methanol.

3) what does the home-brew operation entail?  (if it is not based on a 
sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it)

Many other projects have higher priority for me at t

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[John Jaser]

Hi Tom:


Sorry should have added the context.  Intriguing as perhaps a better common 
denominator than hydrogen itself.   e.g. can be easily transported;  can be 
made from biogas;  can power a fuel cell directly or indirectly; relatively safe






From: Tom
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎2‎:‎49‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you?
Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic 
Acid.
Ethane: C2H6,  Ethanol: C2H5OH  each have 6 H's per molecule.
  Is there something about the number 4
itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom?
Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size 
of the carbon chain.
   Just wondering, 
Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 12:58 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Methanol is super intriguing…  the amount of hydrogen per molecule.






From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎06‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Jan, thanks for the quick response.

Not scaring me off.  I have read something which suggests adding 
methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. 
  Lower energy content was known and accepted.  I generally use 
synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. 
  Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic 
lubrication oils.

So, still curious.  Not a front-burner issue for me.  So 3 lines of 
research at this point.

1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) 
as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel

2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance?  Engine will 
not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline 
blend.  I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust 
automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far 
regarding methanol blend).  I am assuming the fuel computer is working 
on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol 
and methanol.

3) what does the home-brew operation entail?  (if it is not based on a 
sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it)

Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point.  I'll 
keep researching as time permits.

Darryl

On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote:
> Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway.
> Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties
> that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more
> corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The
> flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of
> methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also
> known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the
> motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your
> vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and
> cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the
> metanol fuel.
> However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully
> adapted to the methanol fuel.
> That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for
> purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that
> technology is currently classfied due to pending patent.
> I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity.
>
> Best
> Jan Warnqvisr
>
> -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM
> To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
> Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
>
> In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal
> permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer.
>
> I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an
> alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it.
>
> Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort?
>
> My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which
> is supported by this document.
>
> https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf
>
>
> I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran
> engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof
> racks come easily to mind).
>
> I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working
> space is at a premium.  Also, the processes I see see

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Tom]

What is it about the number of hydrogens per molecule that intrigues you?
Methane: CH4, Methanol: CH3OH both have 4 H's per molecule, as would Methanoic 
Acid.
Ethane: C2H6,  Ethanol: C2H5OH  each have 6 H's per molecule.
  Is there something about the number 4
itself, or is it the number of H's per Carbon atom?
Methane: 4:1 vs Ethane: 3:1 with a decreasing ratio as we increase the size 
of the carbon chain.
   Just wondering, 
Tom

-Original Message-
From: "John Jaser" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 12:58 PM
To: "sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

Methanol is super intriguing…  the amount of hydrogen per molecule.






From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎06‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Jan, thanks for the quick response.

Not scaring me off.  I have read something which suggests adding 
methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. 
  Lower energy content was known and accepted.  I generally use 
synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. 
  Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic 
lubrication oils.

So, still curious.  Not a front-burner issue for me.  So 3 lines of 
research at this point.

1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) 
as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel

2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance?  Engine will 
not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline 
blend.  I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust 
automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far 
regarding methanol blend).  I am assuming the fuel computer is working 
on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol 
and methanol.

3) what does the home-brew operation entail?  (if it is not based on a 
sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it)

Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point.  I'll 
keep researching as time permits.

Darryl

On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote:
> Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway.
> Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties
> that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more
> corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The
> flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of
> methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also
> known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the
> motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your
> vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and
> cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the
> metanol fuel.
> However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully
> adapted to the methanol fuel.
> That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for
> purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that
> technology is currently classfied due to pending patent.
> I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity.
>
> Best
> Jan Warnqvisr
>
> -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM
> To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
> Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
>
> In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal
> permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer.
>
> I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an
> alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it.
>
> Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort?
>
> My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which
> is supported by this document.
>
> https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf
>
>
> I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran
> engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof
> racks come easily to mind).
>
> I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working
> space is at a premium.  Also, the processes I see seem to be based on
> having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis).  However, I don't
> think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and
> I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of
> gasoline at a maximum, probably less.
>
> I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Tom]

Years ago I read that vehicles owned by New York State (U.S.) and operated on 
the New York State Thruway used either ethanol or methanol depending on 
availability.
   However, the manual for my flex fuel Ford Ranger warns against the use of 
methanol. A few years ago I asked the list if I could use homebrewed ethanol 
that was denatured with methanol (98:2 ratio) and was advised against it.
  How did Jan put it?   "Methanol is like ethanol only more so." Synthetic 
rubber seals and fuel lines hold up to ethanol, maybe not so well to methanol.
 Tom

-Original Message-
From: "Darryl McMahon" 
Sent: ‎11/‎26/‎2014 10:03 AM
To: "Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org" 

Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal 
permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer.

I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an 
alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it.

Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort?

My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which 
is supported by this document.

https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf

I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran 
engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof 
racks come easily to mind).

I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working 
space is at a premium.  Also, the processes I see seem to be based on 
having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis).  However, I don't 
think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and 
I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of 
gasoline at a maximum, probably less.

I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is 
more expensive than gasoline.  However, could be an option for 
experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production.

I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but 
expect the latter to be manageable.

Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information?


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[John Jaser]

Methanol is super intriguing…  the amount of hydrogen per molecule.






From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: ‎Wednesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎26‎, ‎2014 ‎12‎:‎06‎ ‎PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org





Jan, thanks for the quick response.

Not scaring me off.  I have read something which suggests adding 
methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. 
  Lower energy content was known and accepted.  I generally use 
synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. 
  Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic 
lubrication oils.

So, still curious.  Not a front-burner issue for me.  So 3 lines of 
research at this point.

1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) 
as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel

2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance?  Engine will 
not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline 
blend.  I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust 
automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far 
regarding methanol blend).  I am assuming the fuel computer is working 
on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol 
and methanol.

3) what does the home-brew operation entail?  (if it is not based on a 
sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it)

Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point.  I'll 
keep researching as time permits.

Darryl

On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote:
> Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway.
> Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties
> that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more
> corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The
> flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of
> methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also
> known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the
> motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your
> vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and
> cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the
> metanol fuel.
> However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully
> adapted to the methanol fuel.
> That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for
> purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that
> technology is currently classfied due to pending patent.
> I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity.
>
> Best
> Jan Warnqvisr
>
> -Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM
> To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
> Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel
>
> In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal
> permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer.
>
> I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an
> alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it.
>
> Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort?
>
> My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which
> is supported by this document.
>
> https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf
>
>
> I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran
> engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof
> racks come easily to mind).
>
> I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working
> space is at a premium.  Also, the processes I see seem to be based on
> having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis).  However, I don't
> think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and
> I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of
> gasoline at a maximum, probably less.
>
> I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is
> more expensive than gasoline.  However, could be an option for
> experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production.
>
> I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but
> expect the latter to be manageable.
>
> Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information?
>
>
> ___
> Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list
> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
> ___
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> Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
> http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
>

-- 
Darryl McMahon
Project Manager,
Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support 

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Darryl McMahon]

Jan, thanks for the quick response.

Not scaring me off.  I have read something which suggests adding 
methanol to gasoline has some potentially beneficial combustion effects. 
 Lower energy content was known and accepted.  I generally use 
synthetic lubricating oils anyway - better lube properties, longer life. 
 Don't know what the implications of methanol use are on synthetic 
lubrication oils.


So, still curious.  Not a front-burner issue for me.  So 3 lines of 
research at this point.


1) what are enviro pros/cons of using home-brew wood alcohol (methanol) 
as gasoline substitute - mixed fuel


2) what are the consequences for engine life, performance?  Engine will 
not be optimized to methanol, but will be using a methanol-gasoline 
blend.  I understand the fuel computer on the 2002 Astro van will adjust 
automatically to up to 50% ethanol blend (but have found nothing so far 
regarding methanol blend).  I am assuming the fuel computer is working 
on oxygen and fuel energy ratios, and won't distinguish between ethanol 
and methanol.


3) what does the home-brew operation entail?  (if it is not based on a 
sustainable biomass feedstock, then I'm not interested in pursuing it)


Many other projects have higher priority for me at this point.  I'll 
keep researching as time permits.


Darryl

On 26/11/2014 10:27 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote:

Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway.
Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties
that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more
corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The
flash point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of
methanol generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also
known that methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the
motor oil , unless the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your
vehicle will consume double the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and
cold starts will be very difficult unless you add some gasoline to the
metanol fuel.
However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully
adapted to the methanol fuel.
That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for
purification of sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that
technology is currently classfied due to pending patent.
I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity.

Best
Jan Warnqvisr

-Ursprungligt meddelande- From: Darryl McMahon
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM
To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal
permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer.

I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an
alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it.

Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort?

My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which
is supported by this document.

https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf


I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran
engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof
racks come easily to mind).

I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working
space is at a premium.  Also, the processes I see seem to be based on
having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis).  However, I don't
think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and
I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of
gasoline at a maximum, probably less.

I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is
more expensive than gasoline.  However, could be an option for
experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production.

I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but
expect the latter to be manageable.

Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information?


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--
Darryl McMahon
Project Manager,
Common Assessment and Referral for Enhanced Support Services (CARESS)
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

[Jan Warnqvist]

Darryl, methanol is already used as motor fuel in Indy Car and Speedway. 
Metanol is similar to ethanol, but more. It means that of all properties 
that ethanol has, methanol has more of them. Methanol is slightly more 
corrosive than water and has an oxygene content of 50% by weight. The flash 
point is slightly lower than for ethanol. Incomplete combustion of methanol 
generates formaldehyde and other toxic substances. It is also known that 
methanol can cause wear in excess in connection with the motor oil , unless 
the oil is specially suited for methanol. Your vehicle will consume double 
the amount of fuel compared to gasoline and cold starts will be very 
difficult unless you add some gasoline to the metanol fuel.
However, you can expect a very high fuel effiency if your motor is fully 
adapted to the methanol fuel.
That is the brief version, I also have designed a method for purification of 
sulfate methanol (derived from paper pulping) but that technology is 
currently classfied due to pending patent.

I hope this information did not scar you off, but increased your curiosity.

Best
Jan Warnqvisr

-Ursprungligt meddelande- 
From: Darryl McMahon

Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:03 PM
To: Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as a motor fuel

In Canada, it is illegal to produce ethanol for fuel without a federal
permit, and these are effectively never granted to a home brewer.

I have been pondering the idea of using methanol (wood alcohol) as an
alternative to ethanol fuel, but have not taken the time to research it.

Has somebody else already done this, and can save me the effort?

My recollection is it is possible to use methanol as a motor fuel, which
is supported by this document.

https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/20_2_PHILADELPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf

I know that during the war years (1939 to 1945), a number of people ran
engines on wood gas (the images of large gas bladders on vehicle roof
racks come easily to mind).

I do have access to wood waste and fruit waste material, but working
space is at a premium.  Also, the processes I see seem to be based on
having process heat available (e.g., for pyrolysis).  However, I don't
think I need a lot - our third vehicle travels about 400 km a month, and
I figure the methanol will only displace about 20 litres a month of
gasoline at a maximum, probably less.

I can buy methanol commercially, but in small quantities (retail), it is
more expensive than gasoline.  However, could be an option for
experimentation in the vehicle before committing to home production.

I also have not yet investigated regulatory and safety issues, but
expect the latter to be manageable.

Thoughts, experience, pointers to relevant experience or information?


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Prices?

[Derick Giorchino]

Wow do you get a kiss with that ?
I am paying $3.50 a gal from a fuel supplier as off road fuel no road tax. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Corey Cauble
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 4:04 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Prices?

I am interested in finding out the going rate for Methanol these days.

I found a local distributor but they seem very over priced @ $600+ for a
55 gallon drum. Or $10.90 a gallon

Anyone know the going rate per gallon these days? I was expecting around
$200 for 55 gallons. Am I dreaming?

Corey

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery;

[JAMES PHELPS]

Propane is also used, but metanol would be more controlable and less 
volitale.


>From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery;
>Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:52:11 -0500
>
>Hey Tom et al;
>
>I think I might have a new solution for our woes re. re-use of
>methanol.  Rather than trying to dry it for re-use in making BD we might
>be able to just use it for fuel.  This local dude who is way into
>performance diesels comes into my place last night to talk about BD
>production and when I start talking about recovered methanol he suggests
>spraying it into the air intake on the diesel engine.  Apparently he
>pioneered this idea years ago and now it is common among the tractor
>pull crowd. It can have high water content with no problem, in fact he
>says they sometimes intentionally add water to methanol when using this
>technique to avoid overfueling the engine and yet still getting the
>cooling effect that they need when they go for more power and EGT shoots
>up to 1500 deg or more.  It sounds dead simple to add a spray nozzle to
>the air intake and use the recovered methanol for an occasional power
>boost.  He says it can easily give a 25% power increase. Another plus -
>you know how they describe on the TDI club pages about how to take the
>intake manifold off and clean all the black crap out so the engine
>breathes again?  Methanol spray does this for you without taking
>anything apart. Sweet!  I am looking for the downside to this idea.  Can
>anyone here think of a reason this might be a bad idea?
>
>Joe
>
>
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>
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>messages):
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>



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers

[CL IRV]

Hey allhere is a good price! 1.80/gallon, here is the link  
http://www.methanex.com/products/methanolprice.html


Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:41:05 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: [Biofuel] Methanol SuppliersHi all,I need a better supply of 
methanol.  My local supplier is charging $5.75/gallon.  AND, I have to call 
ahead so they can "re-package" it.  Can anyone point me to a better source in 
south central Pennsylvania?  Or, I suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped 
but, I'd prefer to buy as locally as possible. Thanks,Ken
_
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers

[Derick Giorchino]

I get it from a local oil and fuel supplier. They supply gas stations and
businesses with fuel and lubes. I just got some 2 weeks ago $3.22 gal it is
considered of road fuel so no road tax on it. They don't ask what i am doing
with it and I don't tell them it's for bio D since its not going to be used
as fuel. I feel that's not so bad. But that tax issue is a whole different
subject. 

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Dunn
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:41 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers

 

Hi all,

I need a better supply of methanol.  My local supplier is charging
$5.75/gallon.  AND, I have to call ahead so they can "re-package" it.  Can
anyone point me to a better source in south central Pennsylvania?  Or, I
suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped but, I'd prefer to buy as locally
as possible. 

Thanks,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Jason& Katie]

methanol can also be used as a denaturant, at 5%. ANYWAY... gasoline in small 
amounts will not ruin a reaction, but it will pollute the BD with unwanted 
fossil products. and anhydrous alcohol is not difficult to buy in bulk, its 
just a lot more expensive (and probably - long term - cheaper to make 
yourself...).
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Jim,
   Bad news.
   I don't think it will ever be possible to obtain 99%+ ethanol in the US 
unless you make it yourself. That is exactly what I planned to work on this 
past summer. I contacted the National Revenue Center to get info regarding 
ethanol production in order to make ethyl esters. They were very helpful. It is 
necessary to obtain a permit. Ethanol used on the premises covered under the 
permit does not have to be denatured, but any ethanol that leaves the premises 
must be denatured  ex. 2 gal of unleaded gasoline added to 100 gal of ethanol. 
Because of this, I don't think it will be possible to obtain ethanol from 
another site. 
   I don't know what effect the 2 gallons of gasoline/100 gal of ethanol 
would have on the transesterification process. I also suspect that only an 
  E-85 blend would be available.

   May have to consider making fuel grade ethanol.
   I got discouraged and put it aside.
   Tom

  From: JAMES PHELPS 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:02 PM
    Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon.  I like ethanol as it 
won't blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^).

Jim
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


   Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, 
but carbon neutral as well.
   May have to tweak the process a bit .   vacuum to reduce water 
in oil?
  Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of 
anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method.
   Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion 
when ethanol (99%+) becomes available.
 Tom
 
- Original Message - 
From: JAMES PHELPS 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM
    Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


Francisco,
I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a 
result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, 
when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable 
and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we 
run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway.  The current timing is 
right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for 
production in 2007.  We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from 
when my methanol is out.

Jim

  - Original Message - 
  From: FRANCISCO 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM
      Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels 
production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do 
to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
  VEry best
  Chic

  VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: 
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier 

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

[JAMES PHELPS]

That is around what I used in Wyoming I was using Heet didn't even know it was 
methanol. Works great.
  - Original Message - 
  From: PAUL MILLER<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the 
winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he 
does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees.

  Paul
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: biofuel<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


Help if you can.

 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of 
windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added 
to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say  
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results.

 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a better 
plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.

   Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

[Joe Street]

I haven't seen any issues with the methanol attacking anything on the car.

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 I just got off the phone with my brother-in -law at the bus 
company. He said that his chemical supplier offered to send a 55 gal. 
drum of methanol to mix w roughly 160 gal of "summer" wash fluid. He 
asked me about it and I thought this was overkill, but in view of what 
you and Paul tell me it's probably about right (~25%).
 Doesn't the methanol, at 35 - 40%, damage the rubber seal on the 
edge of the window?
 
 The good news is  .  He thinks the chem. rep. said "Methanol 
is up to $3 (US)/gal"  vs   the best quote I got was $3.54/gal. Maybe 
I found a new, cheaper source of methanol.
 
  Tom


- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 9:01 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

Hi Tom;

I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but  I
notice that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the
fluid can momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping
leaving streaks of ice.  The higher percentage doesn't do this. 


Joe

PAUL MILLER wrote:


Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35%
in the winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses
that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below
-10F by several degrees.
 
Paul


- Original Message -
*From:* Thomas Kelly <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*To:* biofuel <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
*Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
*Subject:* [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

Help if you can.
 
 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+

gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How
much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid
in order to prevent freezing to say 
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it
freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it
freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the
desired results.
 
 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has

a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.
 
  
Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,
 I just got off the phone with my brother-in -law at the bus company. He 
said that his chemical supplier offered to send a 55 gal. drum of methanol to 
mix w roughly 160 gal of "summer" wash fluid. He asked me about it and I 
thought this was overkill, but in view of what you and Paul tell me it's 
probably about right (~25%).
 Doesn't the methanol, at 35 - 40%, damage the rubber seal on the edge of 
the window?

 The good news is  .  He thinks the chem. rep. said "Methanol is up to 
$3 (US)/gal"  vs   the best quote I got was $3.54/gal. Maybe I found a new, 
cheaper source of methanol.

  Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:01 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Hi Tom;

  I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but  I notice that 
on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can momentarily freeze 
up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of ice.  The higher 
percentage doesn't do this.  

  Joe

  PAUL MILLER wrote:

Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the 
winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he 
does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees.

Paul
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Help if you can.

   I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of 
windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added 
to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say  
  -10F  (-23C) ?
   I will experiment as follows:
   Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
   Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
   Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results.

   I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a better 
plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.

 Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

[Joe Street]

Hi Tom;

I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but  I notice 
that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can 
momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of 
ice.  The higher percentage doesn't do this. 


Joe

PAUL MILLER wrote:

Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in 
the winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that 
strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by 
several degrees.
 
Paul


- Original Message -
*From:* Thomas Kelly 
*To:* biofuel 
*Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
*Subject:* [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

Help if you can.
 
 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+

gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much
methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order
to prevent freezing to say 
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired
results.
 
 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a

better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.
 
   Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

[Thomas Kelly]

Paul,
 Thanks for the info  .35%   WOW!
 35 gal of methanol to 65 gal of summer wash fluid  ...  a lot of methanol
 No wonder demand for methanol increases in winter.

 Thanks again,
Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: PAUL MILLER 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the 
winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he 
does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees.

  Paul
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly 
To: biofuel 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


Help if you can.

 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of 
windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added 
to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say  
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results.

 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a better 
plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.

   Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[FRANCISCO]

Tom and Jim
I understand. Thks.
Chic

Thomas Kelly wrote:

> Chic wrote:
> "Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on 
> demand not cost build up reasons?"
>  
>  No. (Based on the best info I have)
>  The explanation I received from a representative of a chemical 
> supply company is consistent with the info at a site James Phelps 
> provided:
>  
> http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html
>  
>  For various reasons there was an unexpected drop in methanol 
> production.
> The drop in supply coupled with continued demand  -> price increase.
>  This is similar to the helium shortage (almost thwarted the 
> Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade) due to two of the major producers 
> going "off line" at the same time   .  one unexpectedly; the other 
> to due routine yearly maintenance.
>  
>  The methanol price should return to a more reasonable level as 
> production resumes. Production is supposedly coming back. Before the 
> price drops, reduced reserves will have to be replenished.
>  
>  It would be interesting to plot monthly prices for methanol over 
> the past few years  .  see if there are months/seasons when the 
> price is low or high. The representative I talked to said that the 
> price he pays (northeastern US) goes up a bit during our winter months 
> due to increased demand for windshield washed fluid that is winterized 
> w. methanol.  Those of us who have the luxury of safe storage space 
> might consider buying an extra barrel or two when the price is low.
>  
>Tom
> 
>
>
>  
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* FRANCISCO <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>     *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>
> I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels
> production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices
> have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
> VEry best
> Chic
>   
> VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote:
>
>>It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
>>produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
>>have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
>>probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have 
>>moderated.
>>
>>The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
>>heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it 
>>is more difficult and costly.
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>>Hello All,
>>> Did I miss the news?
>>> Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
>>>recently?
>>>
>>> I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
>>>( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
>>>increase in a few months?
>>> I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
>>>mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  
>>>
>>>   Thanks,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
> 
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>-

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

[PAUL MILLER]

Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the 
winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he 
does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees.

Paul
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Help if you can.

   I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of 
windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added 
to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say  
  -10F  (-23C) ?
   I will experiment as follows:
   Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
   Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
   Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results.

   I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a better 
plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.

 Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

Jim,
 Bad news.
 I don't think it will ever be possible to obtain 99%+ ethanol in the US 
unless you make it yourself. That is exactly what I planned to work on this 
past summer. I contacted the National Revenue Center to get info regarding 
ethanol production in order to make ethyl esters. They were very helpful. It is 
necessary to obtain a permit. Ethanol used on the premises covered under the 
permit does not have to be denatured, but any ethanol that leaves the premises 
must be denatured  ex. 2 gal of unleaded gasoline added to 100 gal of ethanol. 
Because of this, I don't think it will be possible to obtain ethanol from 
another site. 
 I don't know what effect the 2 gallons of gasoline/100 gal of ethanol 
would have on the transesterification process. I also suspect that only an 
E-85 blend would be available.

 May have to consider making fuel grade ethanol.
 I got discouraged and put it aside.
 Tom

From: JAMES PHELPS 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon.  I like ethanol as it 
won't blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^).

  Jim
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


 Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but 
carbon neutral as well.
 May have to tweak the process a bit .   vacuum to reduce water in 
oil?
Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of 
anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method.
 Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when 
ethanol (99%+) becomes available.
   Tom
   
  - Original Message - 
  From: JAMES PHELPS 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Francisco,
  I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a 
result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, 
when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable 
and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we 
run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway.  The current timing is 
right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for 
production in 2007.  We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from 
when my methanol is out.

  Jim

- Original Message - 
From: FRANCISCO 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM
    Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels 
production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do 
to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
VEry best
Chic
  
VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: 
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

   Thanks,
 Tom


___
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[JAMES PHELPS]

It is something that I intend to fiddle with soon.  I like ethanol as it won't 
blind you only makes you see double temporarily ;^).

Jim
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


   Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but 
carbon neutral as well.
   May have to tweak the process a bit .   vacuum to reduce water in 
oil?
  Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of 
anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method.
   Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when 
ethanol (99%+) becomes available.
 Tom
 
- Original Message - 
From: JAMES PHELPS<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


Francisco,
I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a 
result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, 
when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable 
and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we 
run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway.  The current timing is 
right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for 
production in 2007.  We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from 
when my methanol is out.

Jim

  - Original Message - 
  From: FRANCISCO<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels 
production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do 
to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
  VEry best
  Chic

  VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: 
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
To: biofuel 
[mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

   Thanks,
 Tom


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

 Ethanol to make ethyl esters makes good sense. Not only renewable, but 
carbon neutral as well.
 May have to tweak the process a bit .   vacuum to reduce water in oil?
Use high quality WVO or do an Acid Stage to reduce FFAs. Haven't heard of 
anyone using ethanol and the Foolproof Method.
 Worth the effort I'd think. Will make for interesting discussion when 
ethanol (99%+) becomes available.
   Tom
   
  - Original Message - 
  From: JAMES PHELPS 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Francisco,
  I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a 
result of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, 
when it does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable 
and not independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we 
run out of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway.  The current timing is 
right as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for 
production in 2007.  We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from 
when my methanol is out.

  Jim

- Original Message - 
From: FRANCISCO 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM
    Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production 
are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to 
pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
VEry best
Chic
  
VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: 
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

   Thanks,
 Tom


___
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[JAMES PHELPS]

Francisco,
I predict that Biodiesel producers will start working with ethanol as a result 
of these price increases, this is a good thing and it needs to happen, when it 
does that means the biodiesel produced with ethanol is 100% renewable and not 
independent on a chemical produced with natural gas. After all when we run out 
of gas, that is what we will have to use anyway.  The current timing is right 
as there are several hundred Ethanol plants across the US gearing up for 
production in 2007.  We have one within 80 miles that I will start buying from 
when my methanol is out.

Jim

  - Original Message - 
  From: FRANCISCO<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production 
are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to 
pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
  VEry best
  Chic

  VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: 
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
To: biofuel 
[mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

   Thanks,
 Tom


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

Chic wrote:
"Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on demand not 
cost build up reasons?"

 No. (Based on the best info I have)
 The explanation I received from a representative of a chemical supply 
company is consistent with the info at a site James Phelps provided:

http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html

 For various reasons there was an unexpected drop in methanol production.
The drop in supply coupled with continued demand  -> price increase.
 This is similar to the helium shortage (almost thwarted the Macy's 
Thanksgiving Day Parade) due to two of the major producers going "off line" at 
the same time   .  one unexpectedly; the other to due routine yearly 
maintenance.

 The methanol price should return to a more reasonable level as production 
resumes. Production is supposedly coming back. Before the price drops, reduced 
reserves will have to be replenished. 

 It would be interesting to plot monthly prices for methanol over the past 
few years  .  see if there are months/seasons when the price is low or 
high. The representative I talked to said that the price he pays (northeastern 
US) goes up a bit during our winter months due to increased demand for 
windshield washed fluid that is winterized w. methanol.  Those of us who have 
the luxury of safe storage space might consider buying an extra barrel or two 
when the price is low.

   Tom





 
  - Original Message - 
  From: FRANCISCO 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels production 
are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to 
pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
  VEry best
  Chic

  VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote: 
It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

   Thanks,
 Tom


___
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[FRANCISCO]

I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels 
production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices have 
gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?

VEry best
Chic
 
VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote:



It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


 


Hello All,
Did I miss the news?
Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?
   
I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price

( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
increase in a few months?
I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  


  Thanks,
Tom

   



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[leo bunyan]

Of course
check the library
Thanks Jim

JAMES PHELPS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/wood_alcohol.html
Jim


>From: leo bunyan 
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:12:42 +1100 (EST)
>
>Just got off the dog&bone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz
>200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on
>Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly 
>mony
>William do yop have any info on making it from wood?
>Leo
>
>"VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM"  wrote: It is my understanding 
>that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene 
>(petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I 
>am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They probably will come 
>back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.
>
>The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis 
>(destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly 
>done since it is more difficult and costly.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>
>
> > Hello All,
> >  Did I miss the news?
> >  Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
> > recently?
> >
> >  I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous 
>price
> > ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
> > increase in a few months?
> >  I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a 
>billing
> > mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >  Tom
> >
>
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>
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>
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>messages):
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>
>
>
>  Send instant messages to your online friends 
>http://au.messenger.yahoo.com


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>messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[JAMES PHELPS]

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/wood_alcohol.html
Jim


>From: leo bunyan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:12:42 +1100 (EST)
>
>Just got off the dog&bone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz
>200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on
>Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly 
>mony
>William do yop have any info on making it from wood?
>Leo
>
>"VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It is my understanding 
>that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene 
>(petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I 
>am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They probably will come 
>back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.
>
>The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis 
>(destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly 
>done since it is more difficult and costly.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>
>
> > Hello All,
> >  Did I miss the news?
> >  Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
> > recently?
> >
> >  I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous 
>price
> > ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
> > increase in a few months?
> >  I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a 
>billing
> > mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >  Tom
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[leo bunyan]

Just got off the dog&bone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz
200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on
Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly mony
William do yop have any info on making it from wood?
Leo

"VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It is my understanding that 
most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). 
 I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it 
took so long for them to do so.  They probably will come back down in the near 
future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


> Hello All,
>  Did I miss the news?
>  Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
> recently?
> 
>  I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
> ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
> increase in a few months?
>  I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
> mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  
> 
>Thanks,
>  Tom
> 

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

William,
 Actually methanol prices have not been directly linked to oil prices. 
My understanding is that natural gas is the normal feedstock for methanol 
production. Of course, oil prices do effect distribution costs.
 I had an interesting discussion with the sales rep. from the chemical 
supply company I've been getting my methanol from.
 He mentioned seasonal fluctuations that are fairly predictable  ex 
Here in the US, winter windshield wash contains methanol to prevent 
freezing. Increased demand in winter causes prices to go up a bit.
 He said that the current spike in price was related to a dramatic drop 
in production by a manufacturing plant in the Caribbean and two in India. 
He said that methanol prices have always been volatile; spikes in price are 
not uncommon. He could not say when prices will drop back to more normal 
prices, but seemed quite sure that this was a temporary increase.

 James Phelps provided a valuable link  www.purchasing.com that has 
price info with explanation for methanol and other items.

   Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


> It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
> produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol 
> prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do 
> so.  They probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices 
> have moderated.
>
> The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis 
> (destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not 
> commonly done since it is more difficult and costly.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>
>
>> Hello All,
>>  Did I miss the news?
>>  Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
>> recently?
>>
>>  I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous 
>> price
>> ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
>> increase in a few months?
>>  I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a 
>> billing
>> mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>  Tom
>>
>
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>
>
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM]

It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


> Hello All,
>  Did I miss the news?
>  Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
> recently?
> 
>  I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
> ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
> increase in a few months?
>  I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
> mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  
> 
>Thanks,
>  Tom
> 

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

Jim,
Thanks again. The site you provided answered the question about price
Quite a spike.
 Looks like a combination of demand and decreased production.

 "Continued strong demand and a large number of competitor outages 
caused an unprecedented shortage of methanol supply in the third quarter 
that drove spot methanol prices to record highs," said Bruce Aitken, CEO of 
key supplier Methanex."

 Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


>I just got this also please see
>
> http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html
>
> Jim
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:44:45 -0500
>>
>>  I just got off the phone with my methanol supplier. They are in
>>Albany, NY (Northeastern US). They have been very nice people to work with
>>  friendly/helpful. I was told that they had a 35% price increase 
>>from
>>their supplier, and passed it along. Is this a world-wide phenomenon or
>>just a local/regional thing?
>>  Have I been asleep at the wheel? I hadn't heard of any drastic
>>increases in the price of methanol.
>> Tom
>>- Original Message -
>>   From: Thomas Kelly
>>   To: biofuel
>>   Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:14 AM
>>   Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>>
>>
>>   Hello All,
>>Did I miss the news?
>>Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
>>recently?
>>
>>I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous
>>price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon   
>>35%
>>increase in a few months?
>>I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a
>>billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>   ___
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>>messages):
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>>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

Jim,
 Thanks for the reply. 
 I originally got into making biodiesel for environmental reasons. However, 
I've experienced considerable $ savings .  first on fuel for a car and now 
heating my house/water. I'm spoiled. I have a good, reliable fuel that is much 
more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels and have been making it at a 
fraction of the price of fossil fuels. 
 When I started making BD I said:  "If it (BD) was available around here I 
wouldn't have to make it  ... I'd buy it". Maybe increased demand is driving 
the price of methanol up. That might be a good thing    if it is a sign 
that biodiesel production is increasing nationally/worldwide     if we 
could include increases in ethanol use, solar & wind generated power, the 
payoff in terms of environment, climate, health, and world "harmony" may well 
be worth the price we pay for energy.
 I'll continue to make my own BD even if the price of production goes up. 
I've developed a bad case of distrust for oil companies.
 Best to you,
 Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: JAMES PHELPS 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:42 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Tom,
  Yep, you missed it, I used to think it followed natural gas prices too but 
that is not the case unless there is a significant market lag that causes the 
price to lag about a year behind. Wellhead Gas prices have gone down 
considerably since last year. Someone mentioned that there was a force majure  
(sp) at two plants in India this fall. Tsunami effects?? guessing on this one.

  Conspiracy theories aside. It may have to do with our free market again since 
Biodiesel production has taken a sharp increase in the US the additional demand 
on the market could be the cause. this is often the case with finite supplies 
introduced to new markets overnight - Prices move up.

  Jim

  - Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly 
To: biofuel 
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:14 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol 
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous 
price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35% 
increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing 
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

   Thanks,
 Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[JAMES PHELPS]

I just got this also please see

http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html

Jim


>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:44:45 -0500
>
>  I just got off the phone with my methanol supplier. They are in 
>Albany, NY (Northeastern US). They have been very nice people to work with  
>  friendly/helpful. I was told that they had a 35% price increase  from 
>their supplier, and passed it along. Is this a world-wide phenomenon or 
>just a local/regional thing?
>  Have I been asleep at the wheel? I hadn't heard of any drastic 
>increases in the price of methanol.
> Tom
>- Original Message -
>   From: Thomas Kelly
>   To: biofuel
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:14 AM
>   Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>
>
>   Hello All,
>Did I miss the news?
>Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol 
>recently?
>
>I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous 
>price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35% 
>increase in a few months?
>I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a 
>billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.
>
>  Thanks,
>Tom
>
>
>--
>
>
>   ___
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>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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>messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[JAMES PHELPS]

Tom,
Yep, you missed it, I used to think it followed natural gas prices too but that 
is not the case unless there is a significant market lag that causes the price 
to lag about a year behind. Wellhead Gas prices have gone down considerably 
since last year. Someone mentioned that there was a force majure  (sp) at two 
plants in India this fall. Tsunami effects?? guessing on this one.

Conspiracy theories aside. It may have to do with our free market again since 
Biodiesel production has taken a sharp increase in the US the additional demand 
on the market could be the cause. this is often the case with finite supplies 
introduced to new markets overnight - Prices move up.

Jim

- Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 6:14 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
   Did I miss the news?
   Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently?
  
   I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price 
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35% increase 
in a few months?
   I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing 
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

 Thanks,
   Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Thomas Kelly]

 I just got off the phone with my methanol supplier. They are in Albany, NY 
(Northeastern US). They have been very nice people to work with    
friendly/helpful. I was told that they had a 35% price increase  from their 
supplier, and passed it along. Is this a world-wide phenomenon or just a 
local/regional thing?
 Have I been asleep at the wheel? I hadn't heard of any drastic increases 
in the price of methanol.
Tom
- Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:14 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
   Did I miss the news?
   Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently?
  
   I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price 
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35% increase 
in a few months?
   I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing 
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

 Thanks,
   Tom


--


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Logan vilas]

My price went from 2.02 a gallon last month to 3.08 a gallon this month

Logan Vilas

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andres Secco
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:51 AM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

Think methanol price is strongly dependant of natural gas price which is
linked to fuel prices.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
To: biofuel <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>  
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:14 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

Hello All,
 Did I miss the news?
 Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
recently?

 I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels).
Previous price ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon
  35% increase in a few months?
 I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a
billing mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  
 
   Thanks,
 Tom







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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[Andres Secco]

Think methanol price is strongly dependant of natural gas price which is linked 
to fuel prices.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:14 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
   Did I miss the news?
   Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol recently?
  
   I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price 
( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35% increase 
in a few months?
   I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing 
mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  

 Thanks,
   Tom


--


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[Keith Addison]

>Dear Khin Wei Chong,
>
>If you want I've got the real technology, how to produce the 
>methanol and the derivate comppounds.

Methanol production for backyarders?

Please tell us more.

Best

Keith


>Best regards.
>
>Dr. Ezio Di Bernardo
>
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Im interested in getting methanol within the south
> > east asian region. Would appreciate if anyone could
> > provide me some assistance on where I can obtain
> > methanol or provide me some quotes.
> >
> > Thanks.


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Dear Khin Wei Chong,

If you want I've got the real technology, how to produce the methanol and the 
derivate comppounds.

Best regards.

Dr. Ezio Di Bernardo

> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Im interested in getting methanol within the south
> east asian region. Would appreciate if anyone could
> provide me some assistance on where I can obtain
> methanol or provide me some quotes.
> 
> Thanks.
> > 
> > 
> > Joe Street wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Jim;
> > >
> > > Ok  I made up a graph by adding water one ml at a
> > time to 90 ml of 
> > > pure methanol.  This was done at 23 degrees C
> > which is the current 
> > > temperature in my work area.  The hydrometers are
> > calibrated for 15 
> > > degrees so this is more practical for my purposes.
> >  As far as Bob's 
> > > comment on what glycerin in the recovered methanol
> > will do to the 
> > > specific gravity, I cannot guess but glycerin has
> > a pretty high 
> > > boiling point and my recovered methanol looks
> > water clear so there is 
> > > not much glycerin in there I think.  I am going to
> > assume it is 
> > > negligible.  Primarily I am doing this just to
> > determine roughly how 
> > > much zeolite I need to dry the methanol. I will
> > err on the 
> > > conservative side with this. It looks like my
> > recovered methanol has 
> > > less than 10 % water (worst case) so a litre of
> > methanol should have 
> > > less than 100 grams of water in it.  If zeolite
> > can adsorb 10% of it's 
> > > weight in water then 1Kg of zeolite per litre of
> > methanol should be 
> > > sufficient. Here is the chart. Since I typically
> > recover less than 3 
> > > litres of methanol at a time I'll look for a
> > molecular seive which 
> > > holds at least 3 Kg of zeolite.  BTW I know it was
> > mentioned before 
> > > and is in the archives but for convenience the
> > type of seives to use 
> > > for this is 3A. Best place for this is in the pipe
> > upstream of the 
> > > condenser.  I'll get a trap with a built in heater
> > so I can use my 
> > > vacuum system to regenerate the seives.  I'll then
> > see how much water 
> > > comes out of the zeolite and collects in the trap.
> >  I'll be interested 
> > > to see if the numbers match up.
> > 
> > So will I keep me posted Joe.
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Joe
> > > Graph of methanol_water specific gravity.
> > >
> > >
> > > JJJN wrote:
> > >
> > >>Does any one know of a good test to determine the
> > amount of water in 
> > >>methanol?
> > >>
> > >>Joe were you working on something like this?
> > >>
> > >>Jim
> > >>
> > >>___
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> > archives (50,000 messages):
> >
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  
> > >>
> >
> >
> > >
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> > >
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[Khin Wei Chong]

Hi,

Im interested in getting methanol within the south
east asian region. Would appreciate if anyone could
provide me some assistance on where I can obtain
methanol or provide me some quotes.

Thanks.
> 
> 
> Joe Street wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jim;
> >
> > Ok  I made up a graph by adding water one ml at a
> time to 90 ml of 
> > pure methanol.  This was done at 23 degrees C
> which is the current 
> > temperature in my work area.  The hydrometers are
> calibrated for 15 
> > degrees so this is more practical for my purposes.
>  As far as Bob's 
> > comment on what glycerin in the recovered methanol
> will do to the 
> > specific gravity, I cannot guess but glycerin has
> a pretty high 
> > boiling point and my recovered methanol looks
> water clear so there is 
> > not much glycerin in there I think.  I am going to
> assume it is 
> > negligible.  Primarily I am doing this just to
> determine roughly how 
> > much zeolite I need to dry the methanol. I will
> err on the 
> > conservative side with this. It looks like my
> recovered methanol has 
> > less than 10 % water (worst case) so a litre of
> methanol should have 
> > less than 100 grams of water in it.  If zeolite
> can adsorb 10% of it's 
> > weight in water then 1Kg of zeolite per litre of
> methanol should be 
> > sufficient. Here is the chart. Since I typically
> recover less than 3 
> > litres of methanol at a time I'll look for a
> molecular seive which 
> > holds at least 3 Kg of zeolite.  BTW I know it was
> mentioned before 
> > and is in the archives but for convenience the
> type of seives to use 
> > for this is 3A. Best place for this is in the pipe
> upstream of the 
> > condenser.  I'll get a trap with a built in heater
> so I can use my 
> > vacuum system to regenerate the seives.  I'll then
> see how much water 
> > comes out of the zeolite and collects in the trap.
>  I'll be interested 
> > to see if the numbers match up.
> 
> So will I keep me posted Joe.
> 
> Jim
> 
> >
> > Cheers
> > Joe
> > Graph of methanol_water specific gravity.
> >
> >
> > JJJN wrote:
> >
> >>Does any one know of a good test to determine the
> amount of water in 
> >>methanol?
> >>
> >>Joe were you working on something like this?
> >>
> >>Jim
> >>
> >>___
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> >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
>
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >>
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> >>
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> archives (50,000 messages):
>
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >>
>
>
> >
> >___
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>
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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> >  
> >
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol-powered artificial muscles start to flex

[fox mulder]

Source:  
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8859&feedId=online-news_rss20


Methanol-powered artificial muscles start to flex
19:00 16 March 2006
NewScientist.com news service
Zeeya Merali


Methanol-powered artificial muscles have been created
by researchers  
aiming to create battery-free robotic limbs and
prosthetics.

"One day you could find yourself sitting in a bar next
to a humanoid  
robot, who is taking a shot of vodka to give himself
the energy to go 
to  
work," jokes Ray Baughman, a nanotechnologist at the
University of 
Texas  
at Dallas, US.

"The most athletic robots around today are chained to
a power source, 
so  
they can't move about freely," he explains. In an
effort to remove the  
robots from their battery-shackles, Baughman and
colleagues have 
designed  
two types of artificial muscle that also act as fuel
cells – 
converting  
chemical energy to mechanical movement.

The first type of muscle is made from a
nickel-titanium shape-memory 
wire  
coated in a platinum catalyst. When fumes of methanol,
hydrogen and 
oxygen  
pass over the platinum coating, they react, releasing
heat that warms 
the  
wire, making it contract. When the flow of fuel is
stopped, the wire  
expands and returns to its original length. The wire
muscle can 
generate  
100 times the force of a natural muscle of the same
size, says 
Baughman.
Energy saver

The team's second artificial muscle is made from
sheets of carbon  
nanotubes, coated in a catalyst. It is not yet as
powerful as the wire  
muscle, but could potentially overtake it, he says.

As the fuel reacts with oxygen above the surface of
the nanotube sheet, 
it  
releases a charge that make the sheet expand. The big
advantage of the  
nanotube muscle is that it can also act as a
capacitor, storing up  
electric energy it does not immediately need for later
use, Baughman  
explains.

The team are now working out exactly how to control
the flow of fuel in  
practical prosthetic applications. Baughman believes
that people with  
limited finger or arm mobility could control an
artificial muscle using  
very slight movements to open and shut a valve to
release the fuel. A  
second challenge for the group is ensuring that the
muscles do not  
overheat as they contract, adds Baughman.

“It is very clever that the muscle itself is the
fuel cell,” says 
Siegmar  
Roth, an artificial muscle expert at the Max Planck
Institute in  
Stuttgart, Germany. “This will be very good for
medical applications  
because you can’t put high voltages into humans, but
these work on 
low  
voltages.”

Reference: Science (vol 311, p 1580)



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

[Keith Addison]

>Keith!
>
>You live on a mountain in Japan?

Indeed I do Joe, at least Weaver got something right, LOL!

>How are you coping with all the snow
>dude?  Last I heard 4m fell.

7m in some places. It's killed about a hundred people in Japan so 
far. Not so bad here though, much worse in the north.

>Be vewwwy qwiet while you tiptoe around
>ok? It wouldn't do to have a few megatons of snow come and wipe you off
>the mountain!

I agree! But the snow's gone now. We were under about a meter of snow 
for a month, very cold! Coldest December in 20 years or something. 
But the thaw came on Saturday and the snow melted. Now it's cold 
again and it just started snowing. I'm sure there'll be at least one 
more cold spell.

We can handle the cold here, unlike our previous place, 18 months 
ago. That old wreck of a house was just too rotten, the weather went 
straight through it, very miserable when it froze over, difficult to 
do anything except try to keep warm, or to get warm rather. This is 
the same kind of 100-year-old farmhouse, but it's not rotten.

We finished most of what we had to do before the snows came, nearly 
all of it in fact, complicated things with fields and pastures and 
grains and chickens and so on. Looks good, so far.

Thanks for asking Joe.

Regards

Keith


>J


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol recovery

[Keith Addison]

>Crystal Methanol has affected my spelling abilitie.
>
>Otherwise, I agree completely with Pieter.

But what choice did you leave me, other than to have innocent people 
believing that we'd cornered the world supply of phenomenalfailure, 
which simply isn't true, the White House owns it.

>Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote.
>How can you keep your patients ?

Bursts of manic laughter help a lot!

Best

Keith


>Greetings,
>Pieter.
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
>
>
> > >HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM.
> > >
> > >HI MIKE!
> > >
> > >I first began using methanol just on the weekends.  A few bottles of
> > >dry gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about
> > >my fuel usage.  Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in
> > >little bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET.  I drove all over
> > >town just to save a few cents on a case.  Soon, as I began to feel
> > >better and better, and my VW ran better and better.  I am ashamed to
> > >say I even got my friends involved.
> > >We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We
> > >pretended to have drain problems so we could buy lye.  We began to
> > >just want to be by ourselves, cooking our little batches.  We egged
> > >each other on.  Soon we had quite a litle crowd.  Little bottles
> > >didn't cut it anymore. One of my buddies "knew a guy" who could get 5
> > >gallon jugs.  Suddenly life was good again.  We built bigger and
> > >better "works."  We got brazen.  We drove around stinking of oil -
>Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil.
> > >We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade.  We did a
> > >deal and scored 55 gallons.  We had quite a racket going.  We though
> > >we were untouchable.
> > >
> > >Then it all came crashing down.  There was an intervention.  Nice
> > >white men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the
> > >destruction of the US economy.  Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and
> > >Sunoco would be out of work.  They explained how we were a major
> > >factor in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of
> > >GM and Ford.  We felt bad.
> > >
> > >Today I am a happy member of society.  I have an SUV and heat my
> > >house with petroleum.  I drive work from the suburbs.
> > >
> > >Let my story be a warning to you all:  One little bottel of methanol
> > >can lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all
> > >we hold dear.
> > >The American way of life is a blessed one.  Be strong against the
> > >forces of darkness that seek to mislead you.  Do not follow Keith.
> > >He is a false prophet.
> > >He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency.  Little
> > >do most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has
> > >huge holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil.  You have been
> > >warned!  Oh, he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein.
> >
> > It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that
> > we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work
> > because we couldn't spell it right either.
> >
> > Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you
> > start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And I
> > don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone.
> > But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least.
> >
> > >Be Strong!
> >
> > Hmph.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >-Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

[Joe Street]

Keith!

You live on a mountain in Japan?  How are you coping with all the snow 
dude?  Last I heard 4m fell.  Be vewwwy qwiet while you tiptoe around 
ok? It wouldn't do to have a few megatons of snow come and wipe you off 
the mountain!

J

>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

[doug]

Mike Weaver wrote:

>HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM.
>  
>


Thanks, I needed a good grin!

doug swanson

-- 
Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. 


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!

[lres1]

For all the different races creeds right down to individual family
structures the thought patterns and the associated thought denominators are
infinite. Common sense is not.

For Keith to take the time to respond to the mail lets me know that 1/ he is
alive and well on the hill/mountain and 2/ is not discriminatory but has a
site open to all. For a whole to work as one it needs to understand all the
globally diverse denominators and thus the responses to address them.

Who knows where Mike or Keith will finish up or the influences/legacies they
leave behind.

Twould appear that nothing is immortal not even the earth we tread under
foot.
Doug Handisides

- Original Message - 
From: "Bioclaire Nederland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!


> ***
> No virus was detected in the attachment no filename
>
> Your mail has been scanned by InterScan.
> ***-***
>
>
> Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man
wrote.
> How can you keep your patients ?
>
> Greetings,
> Pieter.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?
>
>
> > >HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM.
> > >
> > >HI MIKE!
> > >
> > >I first began using methanol just on the weekends.  A few bottles of
dry
> > >gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my
> > >fuel usage.  Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little
> > >bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET.  I drove all over town just
to
> > >save a few cents on
> > >a case.  Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran
> > >better and better.  I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved.
> > >We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended
> > >to have drain problems so we could buy lye.  We began to just want to
be
> > >by ourselves, cooking our little batches.  We egged each other on.
Soon
> > >we had quite a litle crowd.  Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One
> > >of my buddies "knew a guy" who could get 5 gallon jugs.  Suddenly life
> > >was good again.  We built bigger and better "works."  We got brazen.
We
> > >drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil.
> > >We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade.  We did a deal
> > >and scored 55 gallons.  We had quite a racket going.  We though we were
> > >untouchable.
> > >
> > >Then it all came crashing down.  There was an intervention.  Nice white
> > >men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the
> > >destruction of the US economy.  Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and
> > >Sunoco would be out of work.  They explained how we were a major factor
> > >in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and
> > >Ford.  We felt bad.
> > >
> > >Today I am a happy member of society.  I have an SUV and heat my house
> > >with petroleum.  I drive work from the suburbs.
> > >
> > >Let my story be a warning to you all:  One little bottel of methanol
can
> > >lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we
> > >hold dear.
> > >The American way of life is a blessed one.  Be strong against the
forces
> > >of darkness that seek to mislead you.  Do not follow Keith.  He is a
> > >false prophet.
> > >He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency.  Little do
> > >most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge
> > >holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil.  You have been warned!
Oh,
> > >he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein.
> >
> > It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that
> > we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work
> > because we couldn't spell it right either.
> >
> > Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you
> > start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And
> > I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone.
> > But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least.
> >
> > >Be Strong!
> >
> > Hmph.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >-Mike
> >
> >
> > __

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery? Amazing !!

[Bioclaire Nederland]

Amazing Keith, that you put any time in stupid articles like this man wrote.
How can you keep your patients ?

Greetings,
Pieter.

- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?


> >HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM.
> >
> >HI MIKE!
> >
> >I first began using methanol just on the weekends.  A few bottles of dry
> >gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my
> >fuel usage.  Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little
> >bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET.  I drove all over town just to
> >save a few cents on
> >a case.  Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran
> >better and better.  I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved.
> >We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended
> >to have drain problems so we could buy lye.  We began to just want to be
> >by ourselves, cooking our little batches.  We egged each other on.  Soon
> >we had quite a litle crowd.  Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One
> >of my buddies "knew a guy" who could get 5 gallon jugs.  Suddenly life
> >was good again.  We built bigger and better "works."  We got brazen.  We
> >drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil.
> >We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade.  We did a deal
> >and scored 55 gallons.  We had quite a racket going.  We though we were
> >untouchable.
> >
> >Then it all came crashing down.  There was an intervention.  Nice white
> >men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the
> >destruction of the US economy.  Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and
> >Sunoco would be out of work.  They explained how we were a major factor
> >in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and
> >Ford.  We felt bad.
> >
> >Today I am a happy member of society.  I have an SUV and heat my house
> >with petroleum.  I drive work from the suburbs.
> >
> >Let my story be a warning to you all:  One little bottel of methanol can
> >lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we
> >hold dear.
> >The American way of life is a blessed one.  Be strong against the forces
> >of darkness that seek to mislead you.  Do not follow Keith.  He is a
> >false prophet.
> >He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency.  Little do
> >most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge
> >holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil.  You have been warned!  Oh,
> >he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein.
>
> It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that
> we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work
> because we couldn't spell it right either.
>
> Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you
> start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And
> I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone.
> But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least.
>
> >Be Strong!
>
> Hmph.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >-Mike
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

[Keith Addison]

>HI MY NAME IS MIKE AND I HAVE A METHANOL PROBLEM.
>
>HI MIKE!
>
>I first began using methanol just on the weekends.  A few bottles of dry
>gas here and there, just enought to make myself feel better about my
>fuel usage.  Then it got to be too expensive to buy methanol in little
>bottles and I began to buy boxes of HEET.  I drove all over town just to
>save a few cents on
>a case.  Soon, as I began to feel better and better, and my VW ran
>better and better.  I am ashamed to say I even got my friends involved.
>We snuck around behind seamy restaurants, liberating oil. We pretended
>to have drain problems so we could buy lye.  We began to just want to be
>by ourselves, cooking our little batches.  We egged each other on.  Soon
>we had quite a litle crowd.  Little bottles didn't cut it anymore. One
>of my buddies "knew a guy" who could get 5 gallon jugs.  Suddenly life
>was good again.  We built bigger and better "works."  We got brazen.  We
>drove around stinking of oil - Thai food, French Fries and peanut oil.
>We started to meet the higher ups in the methanol trade.  We did a deal
>and scored 55 gallons.  We had quite a racket going.  We though we were
>untouchable.
>
>Then it all came crashing down.  There was an intervention.  Nice white
>men is suits explained over and over how methanol leads to the
>destruction of the US economy.  Good people at ExxonMobil, Shell and
>Sunoco would be out of work.  They explained how we were a major factor
>in the collapse of the SUV industry, and the dire condition of GM and
>Ford.  We felt bad.
>
>Today I am a happy member of society.  I have an SUV and heat my house
>with petroleum.  I drive work from the suburbs.
>
>Let my story be a warning to you all:  One little bottel of methanol can
>lead to not just your downfall, but the wholesale collapse of all we
>hold dear.
>The American way of life is a blessed one.  Be strong against the forces
>of darkness that seek to mislead you.  Do not follow Keith.  He is a
>false prophet.
>He lives on a mountain in Japan, preaching self-sufficiency.  Little do
>most people know he is really the head of an evil cartel that has huge
>holdings in methanol, lye and vegetable oil.  You have been warned!  Oh,
>he has also cornered the market in Phenopthalein.

It's not a false profit, how can you say such a thing? It's true that 
we did try to corner the market in that stuff but it didn't work 
because we couldn't spell it right either.

Please make sure you get your facts straight next time before you 
start accusing innocent people of living on mountains and so on. And 
I don't preach self-sufficiency, all I said was I vunt to be alone. 
But thanks for asking people not to follow me up here at least.

>Be Strong!

Hmph.

Best

Keith


>-Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

[Greg Ocnos]

Could you put it through a still like you were going to make your own
ethanol? I assume that the biofuel and glycerin are higher boiling
points and the methanol will decanter off.

Greg O. from MA  


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:04 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

Hi Theo

Big-time, huh? :-)

>Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to 
>make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do 
>any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of 
>finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble 
>finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was 
>wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet 
>mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol 
>recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated.  am open to 
>either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful 
>links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover 
>methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both?

Preferably both, but you should do it at the right stages, and you 
have to make some decisions about how to handle the by-product. See:

Reclaiming excess methanol
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Recovery?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Theo

Big-time, huh? :-)

>Hello everyone, I am scaling up the size of my processing units to 
>make about 300-400gallons of biodiesel a day. Right now I do not do 
>any methanol recovery however at the larger scale it makes a lot of 
>finical sense to get back the methanol. I have had a lot of trouble 
>finding somewhat larger devices for recovering the methanol. I was 
>wondering if anyone has experience in this field. The internet 
>mentions methanol recovery but no sights really go into methanol 
>recovery and biodiesl. Any help would be appreciated.  am open to 
>either homemade designs or ones that can be purchased. Any useful 
>links or links to pictures would be great. Also is it be to recover 
>methanol form the glycerin, the biodiesel or both?

Preferably both, but you should do it at the right stages, and you 
have to make some decisions about how to handle the by-product. See:

Reclaiming excess methanol
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim

Best

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?

[doug]

Greg and April wrote:

>No.
>
>Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar.
>
>Greg H
>  
>

I guess you could consider biodiesel as a storage system for solar energy...

doug swanson

>- Original Message - 
>From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood
>enoughprotection?
>
>
>  
>
>>Greg,
>>
>>Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
>>being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
>>(Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)
>>
>>Chris K
>>Cayce, SC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
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>


-- 
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. 


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?

[Kenji James Fuse]

Thanks to all for the thorough responses to my queries about methanol and
gloves! Y'all rule...

What's your views on my addition of 0.5-2% addition of gasoline to my
veggie oil prior to biodiesel production during cold/damp weather?

It seems to take care of the moisture factor which had me occasionally
making glop soup during damp times. It seems like a small amount to feel
guilty about, and it seems to work consistently.

Kenji Fuse


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

It's one thing if it is a vehicle fuel tank, something else if it is not.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 22:02
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


> Hmmm.  Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5
> gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel.  If I parked in your
> driveway, It'd be illegal.
>
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

Furnace is Natural Gas.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Kenji James Fuse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 23:43
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


> Hey Greg,
>
> Can't you put your biodiesel in a furnace tank and call it home heating
> oil? That should get around that arcane law.
>
> Too bad about your neighbour, tho'...
>
> Kenji Fuse
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

No.

Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar.

Greg H

- Original Message - 
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood
enoughprotection?


> Greg,
>
> Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
> being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
> (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)
>
> Chris K
> Cayce, SC
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

I'm a residence not a restraunt/business, so the exemtions for 'Other Oils'
don't apply.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 19:38
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


> it's only biodiesel if you call it biodiesel. i would call it a
biodegradable degreaser, cooking oil,cleaning fluid ,or  yellow stuff.
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers

[Chris May]

Ah thank you very much, google didnt give me any
results in the past. Ordered me catalogue so hopefully
should get that soon! (dont worry too much about
prices though, over here it would have been £6/gal!)

Looks like im gonna have to start work on that ethanol
distillery sooner rather then later though! 

Cheers again

Chris


--- Robert Carr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Chris,
> what sort of quantities are you looking for? For 25L
> plus, try Performance
> chemicals Ltd. Prices are good but carriage charges
> are very high. For less
> than 25L, you can have some of mine at cost if you
> can collect from
> Peterborough.
> Hope this helps
> Rgds Bob
> - Original Message -
> From: "Chris May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:54 PM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone, Ive just started attempting to make
> BD
> > but after getting some methanol from a local model
> > airplane shop, he told me that his supplier has
> told
> > him he can no longer get him the stuff since
> > apparently the british government have "outlawed"
> > methanol being sold a seperate item so 95% or
> better
> > stuff will become impossible to find!
> >
> > I was just wondering if there is any truth in that
> and
> > if any homebrewers local to the east London/Essex
> area
> > can let me know any places where I can purchase
> some
> > methanol (I am way too novice to start using
> ethenol
> > lol)
> >
> > Cheers for any information!
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Mike Weaver]

1.  Where do you live? In most places you can download county regs and 
read them.  *Do this.*
2.  Go to the code enforcement office, or county clerk or whatever.  
Make friends. Be charming.  Find out what the truth is.
3.  Find out who would actually deal with this situation.  Get to know 
him/her.  If he/she is reasonable, talk it over and see what happens.
4.  My neighbors call the county on me pretty much every week.  But, I 
read ALL the regs, I've made a point of knowing who is in charge and 
being very
polite and respectful, and I have the code and documentation right 
there.  So far no problem.5.
5.  I can't over-estimate the part about being polite and respectful. It 
makes the other person look like a crank.

-good luck,

Mike


Greg and April wrote:

>In an obscure way, I am all ready there.
>
>A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
>suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
>another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).
>
>I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one
>of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
>he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
>people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
>want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
>concern to him ).
>
>It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
>what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal
>of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
>kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify
>things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.
>
>I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
>just taking my time.
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
>enoughprotection?
>
>
>  
>
>>Hi Keith,
>>
>>You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
>>kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
>>be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
>>we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
>>Board) and
>>do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
>>real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
>>supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
>>legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
>>Goverments, and to lobby to counter
>>the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
>>courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
>>drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
>>
>>In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
>>far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
>>Nellie sometimes.
>>I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
>>why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
>>there.
>>
>>As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
>>years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
>>That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
>>don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
>>with good ventilation.
>>
>>Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
>>give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Mike Weaver]

So make 5 gallon batches and then put it in your tank.

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

>Hmmm.  Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5
>gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel.  If I parked in your
>driveway, It'd be illegal.
>
>
>
>On 12/1/05, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Greg,
>>
>>Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
>>being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
>>(Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)
>>
>>Chris K
>>Cayce, SC
>>
>>
>>- Original Message -----
>>From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
>>enoughprotection?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>In an obscure way, I am all ready there.
>>>
>>>A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
>>>suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
>>>another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).
>>>
>>>I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is
>>>one
>>>of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
>>>he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
>>>people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
>>>want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
>>>concern to him ).
>>>
>>>It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
>>>what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5
>>>gal
>>>of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
>>>kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To
>>>simplify
>>>things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.
>>>
>>>I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
>>>just taking my time.
>>>
>>>Greg H.
>>>
>>>
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
>>>enoughprotection?
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Hi Keith,
>>>>
>>>>You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
>>>>kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
>>>>be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
>>>>we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
>>>>Board) and
>>>>do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
>>>>real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
>>>>supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
>>>>legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
>>>>Goverments, and to lobby to counter
>>>>the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
>>>>courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
>>>>drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
>>>>
>>>>In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
>>>>far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
>>>>Nellie sometimes.
>>>>I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
>>>>why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
>>>>there.
>>>>
>>>>As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
>>>>years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
>>>>That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
>>>>don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
>>>>with good ventilation.
>>>>
>>>>Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
>>>>give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>___

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Kenji James Fuse]

Hey Greg,

Can't you put your biodiesel in a furnace tank and call it home heating
oil? That should get around that arcane law.

Too bad about your neighbour, tho'...

Kenji Fuse


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Zeke Yewdall]

Hmmm.  Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5
gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel.  If I parked in your
driveway, It'd be illegal.



On 12/1/05, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greg,
>
> Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
> being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
> (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)
>
> Chris K
> Cayce, SC
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
> enoughprotection?
>
>
> > In an obscure way, I am all ready there.
> >
> > A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
> > suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
> > another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).
> >
> > I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is
> > one
> > of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
> > he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
> > people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
> > want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
> > concern to him ).
> >
> > It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
> > what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5
> > gal
> > of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
> > kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To
> > simplify
> > things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.
> >
> > I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
> > just taking my time.
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
> > enoughprotection?
> >
> >
> >> Hi Keith,
> >>
> >> You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
> >> kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
> >> be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
> >> we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
> >> Board) and
> >> do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
> >> real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
> >> supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
> >> legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
> >> Goverments, and to lobby to counter
> >> the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
> >> courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
> >> drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
> >>
> >> In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
> >> far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
> >> Nellie sometimes.
> >> I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
> >> why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
> >> there.
> >>
> >> As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
> >> years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
> >> That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
> >> don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
> >> with good ventilation.
> >>
> >> Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
> >> give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[fresheggs141]

it's only biodiesel if you call it biodiesel. i would call it a biodegradable 
degreaser, cooking oil,cleaning fluid ,or  yellow stuff. 


> In an obscure way, I am all ready there.
> 
> A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
> suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
> another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).
> 
> I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one
> of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
> he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
> people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
> want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
> concern to him ).
> 
> It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
> what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal
> of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
> kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify
> things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
> just taking my time.
> 
> Greg H.
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
> enoughprotection?
> 
> 
> > Hi Keith,
> >
> > You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
> > kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
> > be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
> > we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
> > Board) and
> > do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
> > real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
> > supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
> > legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
> > Goverments, and to lobby to counter
> > the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
> > courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
> > drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
> >
> > In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
> > far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
> > Nellie sometimes.
> > I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
> > why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
> > there.
> >
> > As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
> > years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
> > That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
> > don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
> > with good ventilation.
> >
> > Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
> > give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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> 

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Chris]

Greg,

Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel 
being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that. 
(Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)

Chris K
Cayce, SC


- Original Message - 
From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good 
enoughprotection?


> In an obscure way, I am all ready there.
>
> A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
> suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
> another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).
>
> I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is 
> one
> of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
> he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
> people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
> want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
> concern to him ).
>
> It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
> what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 
> gal
> of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
> kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To 
> simplify
> things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
> just taking my time.
>
> Greg H.
>
>
> ----- Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
> enoughprotection?
>
>
>> Hi Keith,
>>
>> You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
>> kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
>> be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
>> we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
>> Board) and
>> do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
>> real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
>> supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
>> legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
>> Goverments, and to lobby to counter
>> the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
>> courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
>> drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
>>
>> In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
>> far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
>> Nellie sometimes.
>> I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
>> why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
>> there.
>>
>> As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
>> years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
>> That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
>> don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
>> with good ventilation.
>>
>> Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
>> give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>
> ___
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> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

In an obscure way, I am all ready there.

A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).

I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one
of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
concern to him ).

It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal
of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify
things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.

I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
just taking my time.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
enoughprotection?


> Hi Keith,
>
> You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
> kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
> be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
> we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
> Board) and
> do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
> real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
> supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
> legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
> Goverments, and to lobby to counter
> the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
> courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
> drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
>
> In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
> far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
> Nellie sometimes.
> I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
> why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
> there.
>
> As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
> years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
> That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
> don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
> with good ventilation.
>
> Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
> give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers

[Robert Carr]

Hi Chris,
what sort of quantities are you looking for? For 25L plus, try Performance
chemicals Ltd. Prices are good but carriage charges are very high. For less
than 25L, you can have some of mine at cost if you can collect from
Peterborough.
Hope this helps
Rgds Bob
- Original Message -
From: "Chris May" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:54 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers


> Hi everyone, Ive just started attempting to make BD
> but after getting some methanol from a local model
> airplane shop, he told me that his supplier has told
> him he can no longer get him the stuff since
> apparently the british government have "outlawed"
> methanol being sold a seperate item so 95% or better
> stuff will become impossible to find!
>
> I was just wondering if there is any truth in that and
> if any homebrewers local to the east London/Essex area
> can let me know any places where I can purchase some
> methanol (I am way too novice to start using ethenol
> lol)
>
> Cheers for any information!
>
> Chris
>
>
>
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messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?

[Mike Weaver]

Hi Keith,

You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will 
kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or 
we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel 
Board) and
do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a 
real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and 
supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on 
legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other 
Goverments, and to lobby to counter
the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training 
courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet 
drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.

In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have 
far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous 
Nellie sometimes.
I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and 
why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from 
there. 

As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent 
years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.  
That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I 
don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that, 
with good ventilation.

Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I 
give to people but you pretty much cover everything.

Thanks,

Mike

Keith Addison wrote:

>>Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious.
>>
>>
>
>I know what you're saying Mike, but I don't agree. Maybe you wouldn't 
>either if you saw all the emails I've had from people shying away 
>from brewing biodiesel because of all those dreadful chemicals. Maybe 
>if the playing field was level, without the constant attempts to stir 
>it up by various parties mainly in the SVO-PPO) camp, but I think 
>even then I'd stick to due caution, neither under nor over.
>
>  
>
>>I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties
>>how to brew safely.  I dread the thought than someone will
>>make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario.
>>
>>
>
>We've all had that fear for years, and biofuels doesn't have any 
>shortage of enemies who'd make the most of it. Yet in all that time 
>nobody's been hurt that we know of, and I think we'd have known. Tom 
>Leue famously burnt his shed down, for entirely avoidable reasons, 
>and was slightly injured, and that's it. Extraordinary. Which doesn't 
>mean it won't happen tomorrow.
>
>  
>
>>If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list
>>look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website?
>>
>>
>
>Sure, but have a look at these first:
>
>Safety
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe
>
>Hazards
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#haz
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
>  
>
>>I
>>have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably
>>be expanded.
>>
>>-Mike
>>
>>Keith Addison wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some
>>>other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much
>>>safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due*
>>>caution, which needs good information. Here it is:
>>>
>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth
>>>
>>>More about methanol
>>>
>>>Question: Just how dangerous is methanol?
>>>
>>>Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill
>>>you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin
>>>and breathe in the fumes.
>>>
>>>Question: How much does it take to kill you?
>>>
>>>Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint,
>>>but nobody really knows.
>>>
>>>Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol
>>>intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol
>>>causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of
>>>methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose
>>>of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3
>>>and 1 g/kg.
>>>
>>>That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill
>>>an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might
>>>need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or
>>>maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a
>>>doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you.
>>>
>>>But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of
>>>pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill
>>>you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter
>>>of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others
>>>haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is
>>>crucial, though the poisoning

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?

[Keith Addison]

>Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious.

I know what you're saying Mike, but I don't agree. Maybe you wouldn't 
either if you saw all the emails I've had from people shying away 
from brewing biodiesel because of all those dreadful chemicals. Maybe 
if the playing field was level, without the constant attempts to stir 
it up by various parties mainly in the SVO-PPO) camp, but I think 
even then I'd stick to due caution, neither under nor over.

>I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties
>how to brew safely.  I dread the thought than someone will
>make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario.

We've all had that fear for years, and biofuels doesn't have any 
shortage of enemies who'd make the most of it. Yet in all that time 
nobody's been hurt that we know of, and I think we'd have known. Tom 
Leue famously burnt his shed down, for entirely avoidable reasons, 
and was slightly injured, and that's it. Extraordinary. Which doesn't 
mean it won't happen tomorrow.

>If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list
>look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website?

Sure, but have a look at these first:

Safety
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe

Hazards
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#haz

Best

Keith


>I
>have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably
>be expanded.
>
>-Mike
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> >We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some
> >other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much
> >safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due*
> >caution, which needs good information. Here it is:
> >
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth
> >
> >More about methanol
> >
> >Question: Just how dangerous is methanol?
> >
> >Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill
> >you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin
> >and breathe in the fumes.
> >
> >Question: How much does it take to kill you?
> >
> >Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint,
> >but nobody really knows.
> >
> >Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol
> >intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol
> >causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of
> >methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose
> >of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3
> >and 1 g/kg.
> >
> >That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill
> >an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might
> >need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or
> >maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a
> >doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you.
> >
> >But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of
> >pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill
> >you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter
> >of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others
> >haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is
> >crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop.
> >
> >Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of
> >methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm
> >should be harmless for most people. No severe effects have been
> >reported in humans of methanol vapour exposures well above 200 ppm.
> >
> >Out of 1,601 methanol poisonings reported in the US in 1987 the death
> >rate was 0.375%, or 1 in 267 cases. It might have been only 1 in more
> >than a thousand cases because most cases weren't reported. Most cases
> >were caused by drinking badly made moonshine, which is a worldwide
> >problem.
> >
> >Fiction: "Methanol is ... a very active chemical against which the
> >human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the
> >skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of
> >methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate."
> >
> >That's from a British website trying to sell Straight Vegetable Oil
> >(SVO) solvent additives by frightening people with the alleged perils
> >of biodiesel. See The SVO vs biodiesel argument
> >
> >Fact: 30 litres of fruit juice will probably contain up to 20 grams
> >of methanol, near the official minimum lethal dose. Methanol is in
> >the food we eat, in fresh fruit and vegetables, beer and wine, diet
> >drinks, artificial sweeteners.
> >
> >Not only that, methanol occurs naturally in humans. It's a natural
> >component of blood, urine, saliva and the air you breathe out. It's
> >there anyway even if you've never been exposed to chemical methanol
> >or its fumes.
> >
> >Methanol is eliminated from the body as a normal matter of course via
> >the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[Keith Addison]

Hi Peter

>Hi Keith and All ;
>
>I had a bug infestation eating new leaves on some
>trees I was growing.  The only thing I had handy was
>some 85% methanol.  I used a hand pump spray bottle
>and sprayed it on, and the plants loved it, the bugs
>all died and haven't come back yet.

Interesting. With 85% too. Did the methanol kill the bugs? (The other 
possibility is that the newly invigorated trees killed them.)

I sprayed some 10% methanol on some greens but didn't see any 
difference with the ones I didn't spray. But it was autumn already, 
much less light, so I didn't expect much, and I don't know if they're 
C3 or C4 plants. I thought it was a good result that it didn't kill 
them. I'll try again in the summer.

Thanks, all best

Keith


>Best Regards,
>
>Peter G.
>Thailand


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[Guag Meister]

Hi Keith and All ;

I had a bug infestation eating new leaves on some
trees I was growing.  The only thing I had handy was
some 85% methanol.  I used a hand pump spray bottle
and sprayed it on, and the plants loved it, the bugs
all died and haven't come back yet.

Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand




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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?

[Mike Weaver]

Better to be over-cautious than under-cautious.

I wish we could set up a training series and teach interested parties 
how to brew safely.  I dread the thought than someone will
make an avoidable error and taint the home-brewing scenario.

If I wrote a quick safety punchlist would the greybeards on the list 
look it over - if approved maybe Keith would post it on the website?  I 
have some informal points in my biodiesel notebook that could probably 
be expanded.

-Mike

Keith Addison wrote:

>We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've been some 
>other messages pooh-poohing safety in general. I'd agree too much 
>safety is dangerous, but so is too little. What's required is *due* 
>caution, which needs good information. Here it is:
>
>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth
>
>More about methanol
>
>Question: Just how dangerous is methanol?
>
>Fact: Methanol is a poisonous chemical that can blind you or kill 
>you, and as well as drinking it you can absorb it through the skin 
>and breathe in the fumes.
>
>Question: How much does it take to kill you?
>
>Short answer: Anything from five teaspoons to more than half a pint, 
>but nobody really knows.
>
>Fact: Human susceptibility to the acute effects of methanol 
>intoxication is extremely variable. The minimum dose of methanol 
>causing permanent visual defects is unknown. The lethal dose of 
>methanol for humans is not known for certain. The minimum lethal dose 
>of methanol in the absence of medical treatment is put at between 0.3 
>and 1 g/kg.
>
>That means it's thought to take at least 20 grams of methanol to kill 
>an average-sized person, or 25 ml, five teaspoonsful. Or it might 
>need more than three times as much, 66 grams, 17 teaspoonsful, or 
>maybe more, and even then it'll only kill you if you can't reach a 
>doctor within a day or two, and maybe it still won't kill you.
>
>But it definitely can kill you. If you drink five teaspoonsful of 
>pure methanol you'll need medical treatment even if it doesn't kill 
>you. Yet people have survived doses of 10 times as much -- a quarter 
>of a litre, half a pint -- without any permanent harm. But others 
>haven't survived much lower doses. Getting rapid medical attention is 
>crucial, though the poisoning effects can be slow to develop.
>
>Authorities advise that swallowing up to 1.3 grams or 1.7 ml of 
>methanol or inhaling methanol vapour concentrations below 200 ppm 
>should be harmless for most people. No severe effects have been 
>reported in humans of methanol vapour exposures well above 200 ppm.
>
>Out of 1,601 methanol poisonings reported in the US in 1987 the death 
>rate was 0.375%, or 1 in 267 cases. It might have been only 1 in more 
>than a thousand cases because most cases weren't reported. Most cases 
>were caused by drinking badly made moonshine, which is a worldwide 
>problem.
>
>Fiction: "Methanol is ... a very active chemical against which the 
>human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the 
>skin and there is no means of elimination from the body, so levels of 
>methanol dissolved in the blood accumulate."
>
>That's from a British website trying to sell Straight Vegetable Oil 
>(SVO) solvent additives by frightening people with the alleged perils 
>of biodiesel. See The SVO vs biodiesel argument
>
>Fact: 30 litres of fruit juice will probably contain up to 20 grams 
>of methanol, near the official minimum lethal dose. Methanol is in 
>the food we eat, in fresh fruit and vegetables, beer and wine, diet 
>drinks, artificial sweeteners.
>
>Not only that, methanol occurs naturally in humans. It's a natural 
>component of blood, urine, saliva and the air you breathe out. It's 
>there anyway even if you've never been exposed to chemical methanol 
>or its fumes.
>
>Methanol is eliminated from the body as a normal matter of course via 
>the urine and exhaled air and by metabolism. Getting rid of it takes 
>from a few hours for low doses to a day or two for higher doses. Some 
>proportion of a dose of methanol just goes straight through, excreted 
>by the lungs and kidneys unchanged. The normal background-level 
>quantities of methanol in humans are eliminated and replenished all 
>the time as a matter of course.
>
>Fiction: It's largely biodiesel's methanol content that's being 
>blamed when the same British SVO website charges that biodiesel is 
>wasteful and environmentally irresponsible.
>
>Fact: Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both 
>aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide 
>variety of conditions.
>
>Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days.
>
>Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, 
>which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water.
>
>Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and 
>it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.)
>
>Environmental effects due to 

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[Keith Addison]

>On Nov 29, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Keith Addison wrote:
>
>
> > We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've
> > been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general.
> > I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little.
> > What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information.
>
>
>Thanks again, Keith, for bringing a balanced viewpoint, much
>as I do like to veer :-).

:-) So do I Ken, I'm sure we're not the only ones. I suppose it would 
be wiser always to wait until one had enough information for a 
balanced viewpoint before veering, but I can't plead guilty to that.

>Though hardly a chemophobe, even I would
>be horrified to take pure methanol internally even in the minutest
>of quantities.

Right, no way. Let Nature provide if she wants to, I'm sure she 
doesn't need any help from me.

>I'm cautious but not paranoid about the occasional
>whiff of vapor, and less cautious still about absorption through the
>skin. I wouldn't immerse my hands in it, but a spill or splash vapor-
>izes almost instantly and has no time to be significantly absorbed.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't advise it, such advice too easily 
goes wild - "Ken says Cleopatra used to bath in it" or something.

Actually I never get exposed to it when I'm making biodiesel, but 
like Joe I use it for a lot of other things, it's useful stuff, 
splashes happen, but it's negligible.

I agree with Bob though, I absolutely don't want methanol in my eyes, 
and I'm careful about that.

You're using it with a mix of mostly ethanol aren't you? That'd make 
it friendlier. Coming soon to a workshop near me, it's only #4 on the 
list now. Well, on that particular list...

All best

Keith


>-K


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol

[Ken Provost]

On Nov 29, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Keith Addison wrote:


> We're veering between incaution and overcaution. There've
> been some other messages pooh-poohing safety in general.
> I'd agree too much safety is dangerous, but so is too little.
> What's required is *due* caution, which needs good information.


Thanks again, Keith, for bringing a balanced viewpoint, much
as I do like to veer :-). Though hardly a chemophobe, even I would
be horrified to take pure methanol internally even in the minutest
of quantities. I'm cautious but not paranoid about the occasional
whiff of vapor, and less cautious still about absorption through the
skin. I wouldn't immerse my hands in it, but a spill or splash vapor-
izes almost instantly and has no time to be significantly absorbed.

-K

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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Keith Addison]

Thankyou Ken, succinctly put, as ever.

Best

Keith


>On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Ken Dunn wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm still a bit confused.
> >
> > What is the trick to evaporating the methanol
> > without reversing the process?
>
>
>Very simple -- you can't boil off methanol when both
>biodiesel and glycerine are present without shifting
>the equilibrium backwards to some extent.
>
>You can recover methanol out of a mixture of
>methanol with biodiesel, or out of a mixture of
>methanol with glycerine, but NOT out of a mixture
>of all three.
>
>-K


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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[tanuki]

Ken,

Thanks for this.

Am just starting on this biofuel thing and have set up test batches.  That
"simple" statement is is just an example of what makes this list really kick
ass!!  I learn everyday!!  I really appreciate you guys!!!  Makes my day!

Cheers,

Ken Uy


- Original Message -
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?


>
> On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Ken Dunn wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm still a bit confused.
> >
> > What is the trick to evaporating the methanol
> > without reversing the process?
>
>
> Very simple -- you can't boil off methanol when both
> biodiesel and glycerine are present without shifting
> the equilibrium backwards to some extent.
>
> You can recover methanol out of a mixture of
> methanol with biodiesel, or out of a mixture of
> methanol with glycerine, but NOT out of a mixture
> of all three.
>
> -K
>
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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Ken Provost]

On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Ken Dunn wrote:
>
>
> I'm still a bit confused.
>
> What is the trick to evaporating the methanol
> without reversing the process?


Very simple -- you can't boil off methanol when both
biodiesel and glycerine are present without shifting
the equilibrium backwards to some extent.

You can recover methanol out of a mixture of
methanol with biodiesel, or out of a mixture of
methanol with glycerine, but NOT out of a mixture
of all three.

-K

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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Ken Dunn]

Hey Keith,

I'm still a bit confused.

On 11/5/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Most convenient would be to
> reclaim it all at once right at the end of the process before
> removing the by-product while it's still hot and near the boiling
> point of methanol, but that throws the reaction into reverse, undoing
> the work you've just done making the biodiesel.

I seem to keep seeing statements along these lines but they seem very
contrary within themselves.  This sounds like "I want to evaporate off
the methanol but, I can't do it because I will undo my processing". 
That doesn't sound convenient at all.  What is the trick to
evaporating the methanol without reversing the process?  Or does the
below statement tell me how to complete the evaporation/condensation
process described above?



> Roughly speaking, if you make a 50/50 mix of two liquids with
> different boiling points they don't each boil off at their respective
> boiling points, the boiling point of the mixture will be about
> halfway between the two. Then there are complicated things about
> volatility and so on, but the one with the lower boiling point (ie
> the methanol) boils off first, and as it boils off the boiling point
> of the mixture rises until (in theory) there's none left, at the
> boiling point of the other liquid. With the by-product, you won't get
> it much above 100 deg C before it starts frothing, you'll have got
> most of the methanol but not all of it.

Is this the key?  Try to prevent frothing and you have been successful
in preventing the reversal of the process?

As always, thanks for your endless devotion.

Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Keith Addison]

>I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some 
>success with making fuel first.
>
>Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will 
>mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the 
>fuel.
>
>This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or 
>less of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the 
>finished product before washing.
>
> I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel 
>stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced 
>with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame 
>on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit 
>and pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it 
>separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a 
>pet bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is 
>separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled 
>batch.
>
>Is there any problem with this process?  I wouldn't ask but I can't 
>find anything in the archives.

There's quite a lot about it in the archives, and more at JtF. Most 
of the methanol excess ends up in the by-product layer, the rest in 
the biodiesel (proportions at JtF), and both can/should be reclaimed. 
Though it's worth reading this too:

More about methanol
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth

The methanol in the glyc by-product can be reclaimed as-is, but if 
you have a use or a market for the separated by-products then 
separate the glycerine-FFA-catalyst first, and then reclaim the 
methanol from the glycerine fraction. With the portion in the 
biodiesel, reclaim before washing. Most convenient would be to 
reclaim it all at once right at the end of the process before 
removing the by-product while it's still hot and near the boiling 
point of methanol, but that throws the reaction into reverse, undoing 
the work you've just done making the biodiesel.

You can reclaim the methanol with a pot-still or equivalent, with 
either the biodiesel or the by-product. Some people use vacuum too. 
No need for such high temperatures. The methanol starts to evaporate 
well before boiling point, but it doesn't really work like that 
anyway.

Roughly speaking, if you make a 50/50 mix of two liquids with 
different boiling points they don't each boil off at their respective 
boiling points, the boiling point of the mixture will be about 
halfway between the two. Then there are complicated things about 
volatility and so on, but the one with the lower boiling point (ie 
the methanol) boils off first, and as it boils off the boiling point 
of the mixture rises until (in theory) there's none left, at the 
boiling point of the other liquid. With the by-product, you won't get 
it much above 100 deg C before it starts frothing, you'll have got 
most of the methanol but not all of it. If you use flash-evaporators 
you'll get better recovery with less energy input, for both bd and 
by-product.

I think the positive effects on washing of recovering the methanol 
from the biodiesel first have been discussed, sorry, I don't have the 
time to pin it down right now.

Best

Keith


>Thanks Derick


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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Derick Giorchino]

Thanks buck yes I did know about the methanol boiling point. But after the
evaporation process there should only be liquid. But my point in this
experiment was to find out if it would help the wash process and reduce the
water contamination. I didn't care about the methanol recovery so much at
this point. I usually do try to extract the methanol from the glycerin in 6
gal batches but it is very hard to get full recovery. It is very hard to get
above 120 deg F this way. My plan at this point is to separate the
glycerine/ffas. And recover the methanol from the crude glycerin. 
But the question still is there any reason that this process should not be
used? 
Will it do funky things to the finished product? 
If I were to adopt this process I would not heat it so severely or fast 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Buck Williams
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:55 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

do youu guyss knolw hte bioling point of methanol is 149 f. and  i dont know

what the boilling point of diesel is but itw way below the boiling point of 
water at 212,, buck


>From: JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
>Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:31:32 -0800
>
>Hi Derick,
>
>I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the
>envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume
>to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may
>make it worth while.
>
>Jim
>
>Derick Giorchino wrote:
>
> > I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some
> > success with making fuel first.
> >
> > Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will
> > mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the
> > fuel.
> >
> > This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less
> > of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished
> > product before washing.
> >
> > I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel
> > stock = I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced
> > with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame
> > on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and
> > pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it
> > separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet
> > bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is
> > separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
> >
> > Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnt ask but I cant
> > find anything in the archives.
> >
> > Thanks Derick
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Derick Giorchino]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:32 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

Hi Derick,

I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the 
envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume 
to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may 
make it worth while.


Since I did it as a knee jerk reaction I didnât worry so much about the temp
just a foot note I use the same fish tank pump I use to add methanol to my
reactor and push the methanol vapor through the evaporator. Since I have
done this I have recovered about 5 times the methanol in 1/4 the amount of
time. But I didnât do it in this case.   
I recovered aprox ml.

Derick Giorchino wrote:

> I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some 
> success with making fuel first.
>
> Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will 
> mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the 
> fuel.
>
> This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less 
> of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished 
> product before washing.
>
> I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel 
> stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced 
> with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame 
> on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and 
> pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it 
> separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet 
> bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is 
> separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
>
> Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnât ask but I canât 
> find anything in the archives.
>
> Thanks Derick
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Buck Williams]

what the boilling point of diesel is but itw way below the boiling point of 
water at 212,, buck


>From: JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
>Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:31:32 -0800
>
>Hi Derick,
>
>I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the
>envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume
>to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may
>make it worth while.
>
>Jim
>
>Derick Giorchino wrote:
>
> > I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some
> > success with making fuel first.
> >
> > Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will
> > mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the
> > fuel.
> >
> > This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less
> > of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished
> > product before washing.
> >
> > I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel
> > stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced
> > with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame
> > on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and
> > pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it
> > separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet
> > bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is
> > separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
> >
> > Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnât ask but I canât
> > find anything in the archives.
> >
> > Thanks Derick
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[JJJN]

Hi Derick,

I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the 
envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume 
to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may 
make it worth while.

Jim

Derick Giorchino wrote:

> I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some 
> success with making fuel first.
>
> Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will 
> mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the 
> fuel.
>
> This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less 
> of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished 
> product before washing.
>
> I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel 
> stock ½ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced 
> with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame 
> on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and 
> pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it 
> separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet 
> bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is 
> separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
>
> Is there any problem with this process? I wouldn’t ask but I can’t 
> find anything in the archives.
>
> Thanks Derick
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[bob allen]

  Teoman, you really need at least a short course in organic chemistry. 
   It would answer most if not all of your questions. A little 
understanding of organic chemistry can go a long way.

Teoman Naskali wrote:
> Any known functional groups?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tan
> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:58 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
> 
> Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at
> vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e.
> with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a
> "functional group" to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols,
> the functional group is -OH which makes it react.
> 
> Best, 
> Chris
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
> 
> How would you react the solution with the gas?
> 
> Teoman Naskali wrote:
> 
>> Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>> buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>> the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>>
>> Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>>
>>
>> ___
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> rg
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>>
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> messages):
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>>
>>
>>  
>>
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[bob allen]

one laboratory method would be to combine equimolar amounts of methyl 
chloride (chloromethane by the iupac) with a nitrate salt.

Greg and April wrote:
> Then how is NitoMethane made?
> 
> Greg H.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:35
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
> 
> 
>> Howdy Teoman,
>>
>> bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under
> these conditions.
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Teoman Naskali]

Any known functional groups?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tan
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:58 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at
vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e.
with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a
"functional group" to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols,
the functional group is -OH which makes it react.

Best, 
Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

How would you react the solution with the gas?

Teoman Naskali wrote:

>Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>
>Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>
>
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>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Chris Tan]

Hydrocarbons are relatively inert. They only undergo reaction at
vigorous conditions such high pressure and/or high temperature, i.e.
with a spark(kaboom!). A reactant would need to have what is called a
"functional group" to react at less vigorous condition. With alcohols,
the functional group is -OH which makes it react.

Best, 
Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 7:00 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

How would you react the solution with the gas?

Teoman Naskali wrote:

>Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>
>Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>
>
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>
>  
>

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Greg and April]

Then how is NitoMethane made?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:35
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution


> Howdy Teoman,
>
> bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under
these conditions.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[bob allen]

Howdy Teoman,

bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under 
these conditions.

Teoman Naskali wrote:
> Propane becomes liquid under pressure. 
> 
> Mehtane would be bubbled through the solution.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
> Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:00 AM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
> 
> How would you react the solution with the gas?
> 
> Teoman Naskali wrote:
> 
> 
>>Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>>buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>>the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>>
>>Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>>
>>
>>___
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> 
> rg
> 
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> 
> messages):
> 
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>> 
>>
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Teoman Naskali]

I knew that somebody would have thought of it if it were possible.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of michael
skinner
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:24 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

The reaction works by replacing one alcohol with another

in Fats you have glycerol which has 3 alcohol groups which are attached
to 3 
fatty acids

when you react an alcohol with a acid you get an ester

it is call a transesterification because you substitute one alcohol for 
another

since the alkanes you mentioned do not have an alcohol group you could
not 
use them doing the transesterification reaction.

if you could catalytically oxidize to form a alcohol ... (oxidize alkane

think explosion or fire) them maybe.

Original Message Follows
From: "Teoman Naskali" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:15:35 +0300

Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.

Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Teoman Naskali]

Propane becomes liquid under pressure. 

Mehtane would be bubbled through the solution.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:00 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

How would you react the solution with the gas?

Teoman Naskali wrote:

>Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>
>Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Mike Weaver]

Beer or wine works, but you should not drink it until AFTER the reaction.

bob allen wrote:
> methane, propane etc. are hydrocarbons.  You need alcohols for a 
> transesterification reaction. 
> Sorry, they won't work
> 
> Teoman Naskali wrote:
> 
>>Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>>buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>>the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>>
>>Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>>
>>
> 
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[JJJN]

How would you react the solution with the gas?

Teoman Naskali wrote:

>Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
>buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
>the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
>
>Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[michael skinner]

The reaction works by replacing one alcohol with another

in Fats you have glycerol which has 3 alcohol groups which are attached to 3 
fatty acids

when you react an alcohol with a acid you get an ester

it is call a transesterification because you substitute one alcohol for 
another

since the alkanes you mentioned do not have an alcohol group you could not 
use them doing the transesterification reaction.

if you could catalytically oxidize to form a alcohol ... (oxidize alkane 
think explosion or fire) them maybe.

Original Message Follows
From: "Teoman Naskali" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: 
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:15:35 +0300

Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.

Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[bob allen]

methane, propane etc. are hydrocarbons.  You need alcohols for a 
transesterification reaction. 
Sorry, they won't work

Teoman Naskali wrote:
> Just a thoght bu would it be possible to use methane or propane or
> buthane instead of methanol? One would have to have some methanol for
> the methroxide but still... that would save a lot of money.
> 
> Has anynone experimented? Any good reason why I shouldn't?
> 
> 

-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol and PVC compatability

[steven mesibov]

No, I understand I need to drain off the fuel first to the wash tank and
then recover the methanol from the glycerol by product only.

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >I am trying to set up a methanol recovery still for my appleseed
> reactor
> >and was wondering if a PVC tank made from a sealed 6" diameter tube
> would
> >be acceptable.  According to a chemical compatibility chart I found it
> >says that PVC is okay to use with methanol but I wonder.  Is the reason
> >steel and not PVC recommended for the appleseed is because of the heat?
> >In which case it should be okay for this application.  I am planning on
> >using a reversed compressor to provide the suction through the tank to
> >copper tubing in cold water from the hotwater tank vent.
> >
> >Thanks for any thoughts and input.
> >
> >Steve
> 
> Are you planning to recover the methanol at the end of the process 
> before separating the by-product? You'll probably get a reverse 
> reaction if you do.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol and PVC compatability

[Keith Addison]

>I am trying to set up a methanol recovery still for my appleseed reactor
>and was wondering if a PVC tank made from a sealed 6" diameter tube would
>be acceptable.  According to a chemical compatibility chart I found it
>says that PVC is okay to use with methanol but I wonder.  Is the reason
>steel and not PVC recommended for the appleseed is because of the heat?
>In which case it should be okay for this application.  I am planning on
>using a reversed compressor to provide the suction through the tank to
>copper tubing in cold water from the hotwater tank vent.
>
>Thanks for any thoughts and input.
>
>Steve

Are you planning to recover the methanol at the end of the process 
before separating the by-product? You'll probably get a reverse 
reaction if you do.

Best wishes

Keith


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