Re: DEAD HORSE (was Re: Steve Lamb has left the building)

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi Nick,

On 18 September 2000 at 20:40:48 GMT -0500 (which was 02:40 where I
live) Nick Danger wrote and made these points on the subject
of "DEAD HORSE (was Re: Steve Lamb has left the building)":

Loath as I am to perpetuate a DH but I did say:

M>> except, as you say, where rules need clarifying as a result.

So...

ND> ...  A  quick  moderator note to "Watch it, or else" might prevent
ND> tossing bodies from the boat in the future.

Just  to  say  that these were issued and both rebuffed and ignored in
this case.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[tracer]

Hello Gary,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:45:17 -0500 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 7:45:17 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Gary wrote:


> Hi Nick,

> On Sunday, September 17, 2000, 7:16 PM, you wrote in part about "Steve
> Lamb has left the building":

N>> While I know Steve can be his own worse enemy, I too will miss his
N>> presence on this list.  I owe my entire filtering scheme to his help,
N>> and learned many things from him about email proggies and software in
N>> general.

> I am sure he has had a contribution to the list, or to certain
> individuals, but overall this was a long time coming.  I am not going
> to belittle him, nor bring up individual kindnesses that were done,
> but certainly with the abuse towards certain people, causing Alex to
> leave the list, for example (among others), for which I missed a lot
> in my early days having to do with regular expressions, which Alex is
> notoriously good at.

ref ALEX: (sorry just see the dead horse):
he is/was busy preparing some extreemly foggy subject in math for his
final thesis, seems worse then regular expressions to me (g).
I have been to busy to check if he already finsihed it but his
departure wasnt Steve as only reason, he was just plain busy with
work...

Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[tracer]

Hello Nick Danger,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:16:56 -0500 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 7:16:56 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Nick Danger wrote:


> In Reference to "Steve Lamb has left the building" From Mark Aston:

M>> This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
M>> some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see him
M>> go.

> While I know Steve can be his own worse enemy, I too will miss his
> presence on this list.  I owe my entire filtering scheme to his help,
> and learned many things from him about email proggies and software in
> general.  I am sure most here figure the list will be all the better
> for his banishment, I think the opposite.

I think that while it may be better for most those present on the list, it
likely isnt in the best interest of the bat as email program...
On the other hand it would surprise me as he is a user, if he doesnt
resubscribe with a different addy just to see whats happening...

> I had a few off list communications with Steve and he was always
> *very* helpful, and courteous (though you may find it hard to
> believe).

Agreed. Problem is he should be locked up and away from normal
computer users

> While I am not a very vocal list member, I have been a subscriber for
> quite awhile so I've seen the list change with time.  I personally
> enjoyed it more during the times Steve was active.

I think he has been too long in support work, one needs an
elephantskin to survive it... AND one has to be able to see the funny
side of the silly things one sees...


Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Terry G. Munson]

Hi Marck

On Sunday, September 17, 2000, Marck wrote the following on the subject "Steve Lamb 
has left the building"

> Steve  has worn his curmudgeon hat here for the last time. Despite all

I  too am sorry to see SL go.  I am not a vocal member of this list so
I never had a run in with Mr. Lamb.

He  was  very  helpful  and  when the list got busy or I was behind in
reading messages I always made sure I read his comments.

I cannot fault the moderators for their decision in fact at times it
seemed that SL was trying to get booted.

Later,
Terry


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DEAD HORSE (was Re: Steve Lamb has left the building)

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi Chuck,

On 18 September 2000 at 20:06:57 GMT -0500 (which was 02:06 where I
live) Chuck Mattsen wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Steve Lamb has left the building":

CM> Am I alone in feeling that continuing to talk about someone after
CM> they're gone, rather than just the situation (i.e., rules) is also
CM> inappropriate? (Not picking on this response, Allie, except that
CM> it was merely the most recently received in the thread.)

Probably  not.  IMHO  there  is  a  need  for  some  of  us  who  felt
particularly  strongly  about  Steve's  involvement  in this community
(good or bad) to express their feeling about his departure. It appears
to  me that these expressions have been responsible and within bounds.
Yes, there is a morbidity about it...

CM> But can we let it die? Please?

..  and  yes,  enough  is enough (except, as you say, where rules need
clarifying as a result).

CM> This just feels so improper to me somehow. What's done is done,
CM> whatever individual feelings about it may be.

Let's  add a moderatorial note of finality here and say the HORSE JUST
DIED.  If  anyone  else has any expressions of condolence or otherwise
then  let's  take  it  off-list  to TBOT (although Chuck's right and a
public discussion isn't really proper) or make it private.

Thanks chaps and chapesses.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:06:57 -0500, Chuck Mattsen wrote:

CM> -- [snip] -->8
ACM>> There's no real celebrating in moderator land as such. I
ACM>> personally got a headache over the whole thing. It was quite
ACM>> difficult. I do share your view that Steve did contribute
ACM>> positively to the list and I myself adopted his proposed method
ACM>> of spam filtering, but your initial statement hit the nail on
ACM>> the head, in that Steve can be his own worst enemy. His
ACM>> negative side was just too intolerable and, IMHO, had an
ACM>> overall negative effect. It was only a matter of time.
CM> -- [snip] -->8

CM> Am I alone in feeling that continuing to talk about someone after
CM> they're gone, rather than just the situation (i.e., rules) is also
CM> inappropriate? (Not picking on this response, Allie, except that it
CM> was merely the most recently received in the thread.)

:-) That's OK.

CM> But can we let it die? Please? This just feels so improper to me
CM> somehow. What's done is done, whatever individual feelings about it
CM> may be.

Personally, I find the responses useful. Let's me get a feel of what
some of the memberships opinion on the whole thing is like. I don't
think anyone is particularly being rude or improper. It's just that
feelings and opinions surrounding the whole thing are bound to be
vented. I'm sure that it will all soon calm down and we can all get on
with TB! discussions.

- --
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

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Hi tracer,

On 18 September 2000 at 07:33:46 GMT  +0700 (which was 01:33 where I
live) tracer wrote and made these points on the subject
of "Steve Lamb has left the building":

>> This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
>> some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see him
>> go.

t> Is this a ban on sending and receiving or a post ban only??

His  address  has  been forcibly removed from the membership roster of
both lists and further blocked from re-enlisting. It's a total ban.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Chuck Mattsen]

On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 7:57 PM or thereabouts, A . Curtis
Martin wrote the following about Steve Lamb has left the building:

-- [snip] -->8
ACM> There's no real celebrating in moderator land as such. I
ACM> personally got a headache over the whole thing. It was quite
ACM> difficult. I do share your view that Steve did contribute
ACM> positively to the list and I myself adopted his proposed method
ACM> of spam filtering, but your initial statement hit the nail on
ACM> the head, in that Steve can be his own worst enemy. His
ACM> negative side was just too intolerable and, IMHO, had an
ACM> overall negative effect. It was only a matter of time.
-- [snip] -->8

Am I alone in feeling that continuing to talk about someone after
they're gone, rather than just the situation (i.e., rules) is also
inappropriate? (Not picking on this response, Allie, except that it
was merely the most recently received in the thread.)

But can we let it die?  Please?  This just feels so improper to me
somehow.  What's done is done, whatever individual feelings about it
may be.

Chuck
-- 
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:33:46  +0700, tracer wrote:

>> This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
>> some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see
>> him go.

t> Is this a ban on sending and receiving or a post ban only??

It's a ban on both.

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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:16:56 -0500, Nick Danger wrote:

ND> I had a few off list communications with Steve and he was always
ND> *very* helpful, and courteous (though you may find it hard to
ND> believe).

ND> While I am not a very vocal list member, I have been a subscriber
ND> for quite awhile so I've seen the list change with time. I
ND> personally enjoyed it more during the times Steve was active.

ND> Just wanted to mention that to offset all the "Ding, Dong, the
ND> wicked Steve is dead" celebrating probably going on.

There's no real celebrating in moderator land as such. I personally got
a headache over the whole thing. It was quite difficult. I do share your
view that Steve did contribute positively to the list and I myself
adopted his proposed method of spam filtering, but your initial
statement hit the nail on the head, in that Steve can be his own worst
enemy. His negative side was just too intolerable and, IMHO, had an
overall negative effect. It was only a matter of time.

The list rules are pretty much there to abide by and for good
reason. They really aught to be adhered to. I hope that this sort of
situation *never* happens again.

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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[tracer]

Hello Chuck Mattsen,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:16:28 -0500 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 5:16:28 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Chuck Mattsen wrote:


> On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 5:11 PM or thereabouts, Soth wrote
> the following about Steve Lamb has left the building:

S>> Something we should all strive to remember... There are NO dumb
S>> questions, or dumb opinions. (Just mis-informed.)

> Probably so ... but let's not test that theory to any great extent.
> :-)

Consider applying it to politics...

> Chuck


Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[tracer]

Hello Soth,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:11:34 -0400 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 5:11:34 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Soth wrote:


MDP>>> As  Allie  just  said  to me in private: "I strongly believe that this
MDP>>> will be a turning point for the list. A thousand years of peace. :-)".
MDP>>> We shall see.

>> This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
>> some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see him
>> go.

> Most would probably call me a lurker since I don't really post all that
> often...  even so, I'd like to say that I don't buy the "misunderstood
> genius" bit or the "this is how I am, deal" thing...  I'm glad to see
> that Marck has done what's needed doing.  Something we should all strive
> to remember... There are NO dumb questions, or dumb opinions.  (Just
> mis-informed.)

correct but problem is and thats not against anyone on this list,
there ARE dumb users...
I have seen people who should be banned from touching a computer (g).
Doesnt happen often though

As far as The Bat is concerned its amazingly easy to use considering
its power.
One of my friends who died a few weeks ago used it for about 4 months
and he had several strokes before and as a result his thinking was a
bit foggy
Burned me a computer out (fire / smoke etc...).
But he used the bat when set up for the few months he had on the net
without any major problems. Nothing sophisticated but I had expected a
total mess...   All it needed was a bit of handholding to get him
going and I am sure that with Outlook or so it would have been much
worse  .




Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Gary]

Hi Nick,

On Sunday, September 17, 2000, 7:16 PM, you wrote in part about "Steve
Lamb has left the building":

N> While I know Steve can be his own worse enemy, I too will miss his
N> presence on this list.  I owe my entire filtering scheme to his help,
N> and learned many things from him about email proggies and software in
N> general.

I am sure he has had a contribution to the list, or to certain
individuals, but overall this was a long time coming.  I am not going
to belittle him, nor bring up individual kindnesses that were done,
but certainly with the abuse towards certain people, causing Alex to
leave the list, for example (among others), for which I missed a lot
in my early days having to do with regular expressions, which Alex is
notoriously good at. This propensity to antagonize people, and not
having or giving mutual respect during the discourse of a thread wears
on many people. Many people with culturally different backgrounds take
offense to abrasiveness, and wind up reacting, which feeds further
attacks. We all have seen this happen many times to the detriment to
the list overall, and frankly, there have been many times, when I
don't have the time to read that junk, nor do I want to.  Each of us
knows that within one or two replies in a thread from this individual
meant that something was starting, and it usually went downhill with
both parties.

N> While I am not a very vocal list member, I have been a subscriber
N> for quite awhile so I've seen the list change with time.  I
N> personally enjoyed it more during the times Steve was active.

The list is a living thing.  It will always change, as the composition
of the group changes, for the good or the bad for all.  No one person
is indispensable in any situation.
 Just my 2c probably on a dead issue.

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 Gary  

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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Deryk Lister]

Steve had some pretty serious personality problems I think, especially
with coming to terms with people disagreeing with him.  Whilst I'm
certain some of his contributions were appreciated, his attidude
towards people with a different opinion certainly wasn't.

Sad to say it, but I think his departure will do the list a whole lot
of good. The tendency to rise to flamebait even if it isn't vaguely
intended as such, made threads spiral out of control...  750K worth of
a slanging match is no fun to download.

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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[tracer]

Hello Mark Aston,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:57:32 +0100 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 3:57:32 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Mark Aston wrote:


> Hi Marck,

> Sunday, September 17, 2000, 9:27:38 PM, you wrote:

MDP>> While his input has been stimulating on occasion, it has been far more
MDP>> often intimidating. In our time we have lost more than one or two long
MDP>> term members to his self-confessed "unkind" style.

MDP>> As  Allie  just  said  to me in private: "I strongly believe that this
MDP>> will be a turning point for the list. A thousand years of peace. :-)".
MDP>> We shall see.

> This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
> some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see him
> go.

Is this a ban on sending and receiving or a post ban only??


Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "Steve Lamb has left the building" From Mark Aston:

M> This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
M> some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see him
M> go.

While I know Steve can be his own worse enemy, I too will miss his
presence on this list.  I owe my entire filtering scheme to his help,
and learned many things from him about email proggies and software in
general.  I am sure most here figure the list will be all the better
for his banishment, I think the opposite.

I had a few off list communications with Steve and he was always
*very* helpful, and courteous (though you may find it hard to
believe).

While I am not a very vocal list member, I have been a subscriber for
quite awhile so I've seen the list change with time.  I personally
enjoyed it more during the times Steve was active.

Just wanted to mention that to offset all the "Ding, Dong, the wicked
Steve is dead" celebrating probably going on.

-- 
- Nick

Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "Steve Lamb has left the building" From Soth:

S> There are NO dumb questions

Come work with the people I do.  You'll recant that statement quicker
than Slick Willy can drop trou.

-- 
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Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Paula Ford]

Thanks.

I've been filtering SL directly to Trash on Yahoo, so that I didn't
have to download his posts. So, I had to go check the Trash to see what
all the fuss was about. Pretty mild for the Lamb-aster. But booting him
is long overdue.

Maybe I'll start reading the list again.

-- 
Paula Ford
The Bat! 1.45 (reg)
Windows 95 4.0 Build 950



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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Chuck Mattsen]

On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 5:11 PM or thereabouts, Soth wrote
the following about Steve Lamb has left the building:

S> Something we should all strive to remember... There are NO dumb
S> questions, or dumb opinions. (Just mis-informed.)

Probably so ... but let's not test that theory to any great extent.
:-)

Chuck
-- 
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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Mark Aston]

Hi Marck,

Sunday, September 17, 2000, 9:27:38 PM, you wrote:

MDP> While his input has been stimulating on occasion, it has been far more
MDP> often intimidating. In our time we have lost more than one or two long
MDP> term members to his self-confessed "unkind" style.

MDP> As  Allie  just  said  to me in private: "I strongly believe that this
MDP> will be a turning point for the list. A thousand years of peace. :-)".
MDP> We shall see.

This is indeed a pity, despite his abrasive style SL definitely made
some valuable contributions to the list, I for one am sorry to see him
go.

-- 

Mark Aston   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


http://www.gunfleet.com
http://www.gunfleet.com/LinuxGuide



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Re: Steve Lamb has left the building

[Mark R Harding]

Marck,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

Does that mean that there's now room for 'Elvis' to make a comeback?

Cheers,

Mark

-- 
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Re: Steve Lamb

[Allie Martin]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:11:54 -0800, Tom Plunket wrote:

LB>> Well, I personally can't grow immune to such foolishness.

> That's the point of kill filters, you just have it automatically mark
> all posts by him read, and then you don't read them.  Therefore, you
> are immune.

What about the replies and generated discussion as is
happening with these two very messages? :)

-- 
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Using The Bat! v1.39 *:* Windows NT4.0 (Service Pack 6)
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DEAD HORSE - Re: Steve Lamb

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Tom, 

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 at 14:11:54 [GMT -0800], you wrote:
TB>> Well, I personally can't grow immune to such foolishness.
TP> That's the point of kill filters, you just have it automatically mark
TP> all posts by him read, and then you don't read them.  Therefore, you
TP> are immune.

This thread is dead!




Cheers,
Leif Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ICQ - 216395

-- 
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Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Tom Plunket]

Dah hit the wrong button on that last one, sorry...

>> The list may be silent about him because kill-filters are in use or
>> others as myself have grown immune to it

LB> Well, I personally can't grow immune to such foolishness.

That's the point of kill filters, you just have it automatically mark
all posts by him read, and then you don't read them.  Therefore, you
are immune.


-tom!

-- 
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DEAD HORSE (was Re: Steve Lamb)

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Januk,

On  14 February 2000  at  01:46:58 GMT -0800 (which was 09:46 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

JA> Other than bashing another list member, is there any point to this
JA> thread? Paula posted a formal complaint, as did Larry, and I
JA> respect them for their courage.

JA> But  beyond  that it seems to me that this thread is way off topic
JA> and inappropriate for this list. Marck?
 
It  is  indeed.  As I have explained to some other members off-list, I
have  been  away for the weekend and this entire topic blew up while I
was off-line.

My  personal apologies to those on the list who have taken offence and
my further apologies for my seemingly slow response to this situation.
I'm in the case now.

Please  leave discussions of the behaviour of any members of this list
as  off-list topics. I find this thread particularly distasteful (as I
did  the comments which originally spawned it).

Any  comments  regarding  the  behaviour  of  list  members  should be
directed to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and not brought up as topics
of conversation on the list.

Now, can we all please move on and "quit rubbernecking" ;-).

-- 
Cheers,
.\\arck

Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 

*---
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| under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
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Re: Steve Lamb

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello,


On  Monday, February 14, 2000  at  09:06:51 GMT + (which was 1:06 AM
where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:

>   And you only have yourself to blame if you rise to his bait.


 Other than bashing another list member, is there any point to this
 thread?  Paula posted a formal complaint, as did Larry, and I respect
 them for their courage.

 But beyond that it seems to me that this thread is way off topic and
 inappropriate for this list. Marck?
 

-- 
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Tony Boom]

 

This message: 14/02/2000 08:09 GMT.


  Sunday, February 13, 2000, 11:46:49 PM, Nick wrote:

ND> Color me Libertarian, but as obnoxious as Steve can be put me down on
ND> the side of free speech. I prefer to do my own censorship via
ND> filtering. Count me out of any witch hunts ya'll are trying to get
ND> together. If you think he has nothing to offer filter him out. Easy,
ND> painless, and affects only yourself.


  I  have  to  agree with with this one. The best thing to do with Steve
  Lamb,  when  he  sends obnoxious responses is to ignore them or filter
  them out.

  It's the response he gets and discussions like this that are generated
  by  his  actions that he feeds on.

  Ignoring  anything he sends as if he doesn't exist will drive him into
  a  frenzy,  he'll check all his settings, he'll send out more and more
  drivel  in a vein attempt to invoke a response. The more it's ignored,
  the more he'll squirm. The silence will drive him crazy.

ND> If you think he has nothing to offer filter him out. Easy,
ND> painless, and affects only yourself.

  And you only have yourself to blame if you rise to his bait.

-- 
_
 
Tony.
_
 Using The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "Steve Lamb" From Larry Barrett & Paula Ford:

Color me Libertarian, but as obnoxious as Steve can be put me down on
the side of free speech. I prefer to do my own censorship via
filtering. Count me out of any witch hunts ya'll are trying to get
together. If you think he has nothing to offer filter him out. Easy,
painless, and affects only yourself.

-- 
- Nick

Using The Bat! 1.39
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build
1998  

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RE: Steve Lamb

[Nick Rout]

Yeah I agree, in fact I am so sick of the crap on this list that I am resigning, so if 
Mr Lamb wants to flame me in return, I won't get it!

BTW I have asked a question on the list, no-one ever answered, what a waste of damn 
time.

Nick
-Original Message-
From:   Paula Ford [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:   Monday, 14 February 2000 10:51
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Steve Lamb

Hello Owners,

I ask you to please review Steve Lamb's latests "contributions" to
the TBUDL, particularly in the thread "Why not highlighting the newest
message in the folder?"

Not only does Mr. Lamb provoke flame wars, which involve personal
insults and language that I feel has no place on a mailing list like
this one, but he sets a tone for the list that is sure to intimidate, if
not scare off, all but the hardiest of people or those numb to the ways
of Usenet or worse, those that actually enjoy that type of nonsense. I
personally know of people who have left the list, because they are
grown-ups who simply don't have time for this kind of Internet BS.

Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
message" said nothing further. If you review Mr. Lamb's postings to the
list, you'll find that that is a pattern, no doubt intended by himself.
If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
nasty and resorts to childish namecalling. I'd also like to point out
that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any assistance. In most Internet
venues, such behavior would classify him as a troll. Morevover, many of
his posts to the list explicitly violate the list rules and guidelines.

Some long-time users of the list have developed an amused tolerance for
Mr. Lamb and his ways; others have him in their kill filter. But, I ask
you to consider the overall effect that he has on the list and,
particularly on newcomers, as he doesn't hesitate to turn his vitriole
on an innocent first-time poster.

I assume that we all have the best interest of RIT Labs and TB at heart.
A small-time program, like TB, can benefit greatly from creating a sense
of community among its users, and this is probably the greatest service
TBUDL provides - or could provide. Mr. Lamb, unfortunately, undermines
that sense of community. In fact, I feel that as long as Mr. Lamb is
left to his own devices, TBUDL is likely doing TB more harm than good.

Trolls deserve the death penalty, IMO, especially when they persist in
behavior, despite warnings. But, perhaps you could banish him to the TB
beta list, where he can argue all he wants about "new" features with a
more limited group of long-time users.

I would appreciate your letting me know if you're not going to do
anything about Mr. Lamb, because I find it painful to watch how he
treats people and will have to leave the list. It was rather nice when
he was on vacation, but now my tolerance of him is even less after the
refreshing, but all too brief, respite.

-- 
Paula Ford
The Bat! 1.38e (reg)
Windows 95 4.0 Build 950

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Allie Martin]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:13:20 -0300, Larry Barrett wrote:

> Thank you for your timely comments. I wrote the following letter
> *before* your reply.  As I am one of those who have quit the list
> several times because of Mr. Lamb, I decided to send this as was
> written.

You should never let a fellow subscriber deprive you of the
benefits of this list. This means that he wins and you lose. I'll
never understand why someone would unsubscribe and deprive him or
herself of a useful resource on the account of a fellow subscriber. :(

Create a kill-filter and by all means send your complaint to
the list-owner. I, however, implore you not to unsubscribe on that
account. The posters here, unless otherwise explicitly stated, are
here on the same terms that you are. Their writings in no way
represent the views of Ritlabs or those of any other members of this
list's as yours does. The list may be silent about him because
kill-filters are in use or others as myself have grown immune to it
all or have developed the ability to ignore the unfavourable content.

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Re: Steve Lamb

[Larry Barrett]

Hello Paula,

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 6:50:48 PM, you wrote:

> Hello Owners,

> I ask you to please review Steve Lamb's latests "contributions" to
> the TBUDL, particularly in the thread "Why not highlighting the newest
> message in the folder?"

> Not only does Mr. Lamb provoke flame wars, which involve personal
> insults and language that I feel has no place on a mailing list like
> this one, but he sets a tone for the list that is sure to intimidate, if
> not scare off, all but the hardiest of people or those numb to the ways
> of Usenet or worse, those that actually enjoy that type of nonsense. I
> personally know of people who have left the list, because they are
> grown-ups who simply don't have time for this kind of Internet BS.

> Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
> message" said nothing further. If you review Mr. Lamb's postings to the
> list, you'll find that that is a pattern, no doubt intended by himself.
> If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
> nasty and resorts to childish namecalling. I'd also like to point out
> that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any assistance. In most Internet
> venues, such behavior would classify him as a troll. Morevover, many of
> his posts to the list explicitly violate the list rules and guidelines.

> Some long-time users of the list have developed an amused tolerance for
> Mr. Lamb and his ways; others have him in their kill filter. But, I ask
> you to consider the overall effect that he has on the list and,
> particularly on newcomers, as he doesn't hesitate to turn his vitriole
> on an innocent first-time poster.

> I assume that we all have the best interest of RIT Labs and TB at heart.
> A small-time program, like TB, can benefit greatly from creating a sense
> of community among its users, and this is probably the greatest service
> TBUDL provides - or could provide. Mr. Lamb, unfortunately, undermines
> that sense of community. In fact, I feel that as long as Mr. Lamb is
> left to his own devices, TBUDL is likely doing TB more harm than good.

> Trolls deserve the death penalty, IMO, especially when they persist in
> behavior, despite warnings. But, perhaps you could banish him to the TB
> beta list, where he can argue all he wants about "new" features with a
> more limited group of long-time users.

> I would appreciate your letting me know if you're not going to do
> anything about Mr. Lamb, because I find it painful to watch how he
> treats people and will have to leave the list. It was rather nice when
> he was on vacation, but now my tolerance of him is even less after the
> refreshing, but all too brief, respite.


Dear Paula (and others),

Thank you for your timely comments. I wrote the following letter
*before* your reply.  As I am one of those who have quit the list
several times because of Mr. Lamb, I decided to send this as was
written.
__

Greetings,

I'm still trying to decide who is worse, Steve Lamb, or the rest of us
who  tolerate his foul-mouthed stupidity. It's amazing how uncouth and
just  plain  idiotic  some  people  can  be - hiding behind a computer
screen.  This guy is sickening, and I sure wish some of you would wake
up  and take notice. I don't consider him a great asset to this list -
to  the  contrary  -  I  consider him a detriment to an otherwise fine
list. Many of us (and there are many) love The Bat! for our own little
inexperienced  layman  reasons,  and  I  have  a strong hunch that our
support  for  this  software  goes  a lot deeper than this big-mouthed
blowhard  who  is pretty good at spitting on every opinion that didn't
originate with him. I cringe when I read someone complimenting Lamb on
*anything*  he  says.  The  attitude  seems  to  be, "Oh he's rude and
uncouth  and  arrogant,  but  he  has  s much good to contribute."
Hogwash!  - I'm not about to reach down to the bottom of a garbage can
just because there's a sandwich there! In my opinion, he long ago lost
the  right  to  be  heard.  I  personally  am  not  impressed with how
intelligent and experienced one might be - if that person doesn't know
how  to  express his opinion in a civilized way - I don't need or want
his  opinion.  Life  is  too  short  to  put  up  with  that  kind  of
foolishness.  The  folks  at RIT Labs seem to have gotten along pretty
well  before Steve Lamb came on the scene, and I'm absolutely positive
they can continue to build great software without his kind of input. I
can tolerate plenty of difference of opinion - but when someone lowers
himself  to  the  place of calling someone else a "whining prick" just
because  they  dare  to  differ  with  him  - that person is less than
worthless  to me! It appears to me that he could use some professional
help.  Steve, please do The Bat! a favor and go find someplace else to
vent  your  wrath  &  frustration!  You'll drive away more prospec

Re: Steve Lamb

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, February 13, 2000, 1:50:48 PM, Paula wrote:
> If someone does dare to disagree with his views, he immediately turns
> nasty and resorts to childish namecalling.

Oh come off it, Paula.  I respond in the tone given, nothing more.  Don't
like it, tough.

> Note that the person who originated the "highlighting the newest
> message" said nothing further.

I'll also point out to her majesty the queen of TBUDL that my response to
the original poster was not nasty nor contained namecalling.  Further my
second response in the thread was in kind to the tone set by the user in
question.

> I'd also like to point out that Mr. Lamb very rarely provides any
> assistance.

Much more than you ever do, that much is certain.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Steve Lamb 101

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 13, 2000, 9:08:40 AM, tracer wrote:
> didnt have..). Ok, I had the write the things but it made life so much
> easier to create standards(g)

Oh, standards are a good thing, as long as they are open.  Microsoft often
doesn't open its standards, doesn't maintain the standards they set, don't
adhere to standards regardless of them setting it or not.

I don't consider it a "standard" when the main reason it is standardized
is based solely on market share.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Steve Lamb 101

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 13, 2000, 1:54:16 AM, Andrew wrote:
> The other thing you learn from him is why Unix got stomped all over by
> Microsoft products. Steve has a pure Unix mindset: there is One Right
> Way to understand anything, and anyone who can't share it, even after
> being shouted at, is a Stupid Luser.

*laugh*

> He's often right about the facts. But the tone of hectoring contempt
> and the habit of treating people as if it were wicked of them to want
> something he finds illogical tends to put paying customers off.

I hate to tell this to you but I have laid into some Unix people because
their programs don't do enough.  I've explained to them exactly why the
Windows clients were better in some regards than their clients and demanded
that they fix it.  Hasn't happened yet.  :/

As for Microsoft, we all know they "won" on PR alone.  Thing is, after a
while, people get tired of the BS and look for the technically superior
solution.  I never claimed to be a PR guy, just right.  Given the choice of
being nice and wrong or rude and right I'll be the latter every time.  People
forgive rude, they don't forgive wrong.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Steve Lamb 101

[Andrew Brown]

ND> Lamb in an acquired taste (pun intended), and once you get past the
ND> brash outer shell there really is a lot one can learn from Steve. I
ND> have gained great insight on a lot of topics from his "discussions" in
ND> this forum, and while I don't agree with everything he says (what sane
ND> person possibly could?) there is even tidbits of wisdom in the
ND> wackiest of Steve's stances.

The other thing you learn from him is why Unix got stomped all over by
Microsoft products. Steve has a pure Unix mindset: there is One Right
Way to understand anything, and anyone who can't share it, even after
being shouted at, is a Stupid Luser.

He's often right about the facts. But the tone of hectoring contempt
and the habit of treating people as if it were wicked of them to want
something he finds illogical tends to put paying customers off.

I'm anti bloat myself. I don't want a newsreader, though a scoring
system for mailing lists would be wonderful. I don't want another web
browser. I want a proper editor that uses proper proportional fonts
and understands soft returns while editing, even if it formats the
result in hard ascii.

We have to be sympathetic to the Bat's developers: if they get 2.0
wrong by being too ambitious they are screwed, but if they are not
ambitious enough, that's a mistake, though not as serious. The most
important thing is for the program to remain fast and reliable at
retrieving, sorting, and manipulating large quantities of email from
numerous accounts.

To this end, I want global filters so that mail from many accounts
ends up in the same folder. this really comes down to the capacity to
copy filters easily between accounts. Date based filtering and
archiving would also be a good thing. Coloured labels for messages has
been often demanded and is long overdue. a nice refinement on that
would be a filter that did date-based colouring on header lines, so
that today's mail was red, and yesterday's orange, while stuff from a
month ago faded to dead black -- whatever: if we had coloured labels
and time-based filtering people could do this stuff for themselves.
Especially if there were lots of colours :-)






  -- Andrew Brown

running 1.38 on Windows 98
under 4.10

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Re: Steve Lamb 101

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Angel, 

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 at 18:51:08 [GMT -0800], you wrote:
A> Hi all, and Nick,

A> I am *not* a member of the *I hate Steve* fan club (Hate is such a strong word 
anyways).
A> I just think there is a lot of frustration in the air.
[snipped lots of mushy stuff]

Ok everybody, group hug!





Leif Gregory 

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Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 under Windows 98 4.10 Build  A  
on a Pentium III 500 MHz notebook with 128MB.

Tagline of the day:
Give me ambiguity or give me something else.



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Re: Steve Lamb 101

[Angel]

Hi all, and Nick,

I am *not* a member of the *I hate Steve* fan club (Hate is such a strong word 
anyways).
I just think there is a lot of frustration in the air.
What I *am* is someone with over 20 yrs experience in Customer Service, Problem 
Resolution
and PR who doesn't like to see people arguing and squabbling over something in a public
fora which is of an informative, progressive and support genre. Much more could be
accomplished if the threads stay on topic, and the list-members take adamant, forceful,
personal oppositions to opinions stated in the fora, into private.
I've heard/seen worse. But it's frustrating to see stuff like this in a place
which it has no place. It doesn't concern me *personally*, however it *does* concern
me as a member of a public support/informative fora. It's going to 
happen...disagreements
and conflict, but it's up to US: Me, Steve, and *everyone* else, as to where we draw 
the
line.

Steve publicly apologized for being out of line and I respect that, and I respect him 
much
more for doing so. I have learned quite a bit from this fora, and from Steve (as I told
him in private). I think this fora has benefitted from him input, and I hope that
he will keep things on an "appropriate" public fora manner so that we could continue to
learn more from him.

Contrary to what others may believe, it's hard to ignore *any* email in this fora 
because
sometimes a very good point or fact is contained within..but sometimes within a
buncha flaming etc. Sometimes it's just too hard to miss...and to ignore. We're juct
names on here, but we *are* human after all

With that said, I hope that TBUDL can now get back to what it's supposed to do best for
me: inform, teach and heck... make me smile sometimes :D

And I apologize if this post was/is out of line for the fora but I had to respond to
Nick's  very human post. :)

Regards,
~~~Angel

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 on: 1/12/2000 17:46:45*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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