Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Re: Halitetites

[Michael Queen]

speculations on terminology:

In some ways, speleology is  now in an evolutionary state, much as biology
was in the early 18th century. Faced with a myriad of different things,
they struggled to which diverse characteristics were the most important,
and which were less critical. Order was eventually brought from chaos by
the Linnean (binomial) system of classification. Since then there has been
a general split between taxonomists who see all sorts of differences as
significant and warrantling new names (splitters), and those who focus on
more widely held characteristics (lumpers). There is perhaps no single
right way of naming something. But when we do attach a name, we should be
aware of the philosophical implications of doing so.  In particular, it
seems there should be a distinction between the terms applied to the form
and to the mineralogy of diverse speleothems. By convention, most
speleothems are described as a function of their morphology, which is
related to the physical nature of the environment, in which they formed
(source of fluids, drives of supersaturation, etc.). The  mineralogic
composition of the speleothem, which is related to the chemical nature of
the environment, is in most cases is not mentioned, unless it's weird. If
we start naming speleothems based on mineralogy, it would mean that we
would need separate terms for calcite stalactites, aragonite stalactites,
mixed calcite and aragonite stalactites, stalactites with laminae of
hydromagnesite, etc., etc.. Following the hierarchical classification of
organisms,  would it make more sense, by convention, to describe
speleothems by using a morphological term with (as necessary) a
mineralogical  modifier? It doesn't  diminish the significance of any
particular feature but increases the information contained in the term.
Additionally, it makes the translation into other languages easier,
searching terms easier and more intuitive, etc..

As as rule, the people who first discover and find something new  are more
likely to be splitters, and the people who follow up and bring diverse
studies together are lumpers. They are like arborists, cropping off limbs
that seem less functional than others. This commonly is related to age of
the researcher, where young scholars are in the field finding new things,
older scholars are in the labs, understanding what they have found, and
long-toothed scholars are in the office, writing up and synthesizing the
work of others. As a long-tooth myself, these relationships become
increasingly clear.

mq

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 6:45 PM J Lyles  wrote:

> Cool, i know where Bex is, not far from Montreaux and Lac Leman right? I
> go to that area frequently for work. Is it in the valley floor or up on the
> cliffs in mountains?
> On Aug 31, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Mark Minton 
> wrote:
>>
>> Another interesting salt mine to visit is the one at Bex, Switzerland. I
>> went there in 1993-4. You can ride a miniature train through the workings
>> and see antique equipment and workings. Everything gets encrusted with
>> salt. The mine is still active today.
>>
>> Mark Minton
>> mmin...@caver.net
>>
>> On Fri, 31 Aug, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Dwight  wrote:
>>
>> Yes.  We were at Turda a couple of years ago.  It's spectacular as the
>> salt has flowed plastically and is highly contorted.  The "theme park" is a
>> bit bizarre when you see it in person!
>> Dirtdoc
>>
>> --
>> *From: *"Harvey DuChene" 
>> *To: *"Dwight" , jerryat...@aol.com, "Cave Texas" <
>> Texascavers@texascavers.com>
>> *Sent: *Friday, August 31, 2018 8:41:26 AM
>> *Subject: *RE: [SWR CAVERS] Halitetites
>>
>> In 1998 or 1999, Kathy and I visited Romania and went to the salt mine at
>> Turda in the Transylvanian Alps. The mine is very old, and I believe salt
>> was being extracted as early as 900 bce. Tectonic forces have seriously
>> contorted the bedding, and halite stalactites have preferentially grown
>> along some of the bedding planes (see photo).  Since our visit almost 20
>> years ago, the mine has been turned into and underground theme park. Search
>> on “salina turda” to see what the place looks like today.
>>
>>
>> Harv
>>
>>
>> [image: Salina Turda salt mine in Romania reopens as theme park]
>>
>> --
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] ABC 20/20 Special on Thailand Cave Rescue

[Michael Queen]

Could "cave disease" be the English translation of whatever Thai dialect
might be used locally? While in English speaking countries we speak in
shaded and well defined terms and Linnean hierarchies, it seems likely
that,  in a less technological society,  everything bad  associated with a
cave might be generically described as "cave disease."  Are all the divers
and med support, etc., out?

M

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Geary Schindel <
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org> wrote:

> Their Dr./commentator called me this morning a few minutes before I had to
> run into a meeting and wanted to talk about potential diseases the kids may
> be exposed to in the cave. I talked a little about Histo which he was a
> aware of but I didn't think that was likely unless it was a significant bat
> cave. I told him I had never heard of it called cave disease as most people
> aren't around bat caves and they are much more likely to get it from birds,
> especially if they are commercially raising birds. He rattled off some
> other bacteria which I had never heard. I did tell him about E coli O157
> H7, crypto, and giardia which are not uncommon in water and how storm water
> is commonly very high in bacteria. He also asked about rabies which I also
> told him was unlikely unless they were eating bats.  I think he was trying
> to put a twist on it and I have a feeling it isn't going to go well.
>
> Geary
>
> -Original Message-
> From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com [mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Lee H. Skinner
> Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 8:34 PM
> To: New Mexico Cavers ; Texas Cavers <
> Texascavers@texascavers.com>; Sandia Grotto  national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [SWR CAVERS] ABC 20/20 Special on Thailand Cave Rescue
>
> ABC will air a special edition of 20/20 tomorrow evening (Tuesday July 10,
> 8:00 pm - 9:00 pm Mountain Daylight Time) on the Thailand cave rescue.
>
>
> As the next group of cave divers enter the cave, they are hopeful of
> bringing out all four remaining boys and their coach,
>
>
> Lee Skinner
>
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today

[Michael Queen via Texascavers]

The critical thing in interesting new cavers is achieving the sense of
exploration - of the unknown.  We need more caves like Wind and Sand (BLM,
Guadalupe Mnts), which are complicated to the point of being bewildering to
new cavers (or Eastern cavers used to stream passages), without delineated
trails. Regardless of how beautiful or unusual a cave is, being confined to
taped trails  makes it too much like visiting museums and being warned not
to get closer than three feet from the art. That was part of my experience
growing up, but doesn't fit into the experience or interests of most young
people today. Preserving caving as a sport and an adventure is a different
challenge than preserving caves. Once people are hooked on caves they may
be more easily introduced to cave conservation, etc.,  lacking which it is
too cerebral for most, and they quickly become tired, bored and looking for
the next short lived adventure.

M

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Michael Queen <jmofgu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> When I have been asked about newbies going to Lech I have always stressed
> the skills and general fitness and competence needed. However, I have also
> said that someone with determination and w/o too serious health issues can
> undertake learning and practice, attach oneself to smaller mapping projects
> and learn some skills so as to make oneself useful, and they could hope to
> get into the cave, perhaps on project trips if not exploration. And I know
> several people who have done just that. Our grotto chairman is a new caver
> but has done a whole bunch of caves in just a few years, is strong,
> vertically competent , and is becoming a mapper. He recently went into Lech
> and did fine. The idea and perception of extreme exclusivity and
> cliquishness is  hugely counter-productive.  Being encouraging   is not the
> same as  casually suggesting that just anyone can go.
>
> As someone who has occasionally caved in penny loafers and flannel slacks
> (after dinner with the governor in Bermuda - an island of 60 thousand, so
> caving with the governor is about the same as caving with the mayor of
> Carlsbad, but just more formal), I am not put off by someone who attends a
> meeting for the first time in semiformal attire. What did she wear the
> second time? Some people are just more formal than others, and it has
> nothing to do with experience or capabilities. I'd suggest that it  is no
> stranger than the Randy Gandy folk? One friend drives a classic Aston
> Martin, but is perfectly comfortable slogging through the mud with the rest
> of us. Being flexible is as much a state of mind as a state of one's
> physical body.
>
> M
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Lynda Sanchez <diamond...@pvtnetworks.net
> > wrote:
>
>> I sent her more information about the book, referred her to the website
>> (fscsp) and also to Pete should she want a copy of the book.  She was
>> mainly interested in the book as a source of information and history.  In
>> the future I will direct anyone either to Pete or to the website.  I think
>> sometimes speaking to a “real” person helps too.
>>
>> It wouldn’t hurt if the Sandia Grotto folks would write up some of their
>> field trips and things they do like the clean up at Sandia Cave.  That
>> article was very good, and more of that kind of thing is needed in all
>> areas where grottos exist.  It is a good way to recruit when people
>> associate the name with a great learning experience or field trip.
>>
>> Lynda
>>
>> *From:* Linda Starr <lstarr...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:54 PM
>> *To:* Lynda Sanchez <diamond...@pvtnetworks.net>
>> *Cc:* Dwight <dirt...@comcast.net> ; TAG Net <tag-...@hiddenworld.net> ; Cave
>> Texas <Texascavers@texascavers.com> ; Cave NM
>> <swrcav...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
>>
>> Lynda,
>>  What did you tell the UNM student?  The Sandia Grotto meets the 1st
>> Tuesday of each month and we intend to have a recreational trip for new
>> cavers once a month.  Please direct anyone near Albuquerque to the Sandia
>> Grotto.  When we were doing this book, I didn't think of the opportunity to
>> recruit new members.  If you need an address, it's on our website and we
>> also have a Facebook page.  Pete is in charge of the grotto website. I
>> don't have a URL offhand.
>>
>> Linda Starr
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Lynda Sanchez <
>> diamond...@pvtnetworks.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Dwight,  it might get some folks interested and that is a first step.
>>> However, they also have to have caves to explore and this is a major

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today

[Michael Queen via Texascavers]

When I have been asked about newbies going to Lech I have always stressed
the skills and general fitness and competence needed. However, I have also
said that someone with determination and w/o too serious health issues can
undertake learning and practice, attach oneself to smaller mapping projects
and learn some skills so as to make oneself useful, and they could hope to
get into the cave, perhaps on project trips if not exploration. And I know
several people who have done just that. Our grotto chairman is a new caver
but has done a whole bunch of caves in just a few years, is strong,
vertically competent , and is becoming a mapper. He recently went into Lech
and did fine. The idea and perception of extreme exclusivity and
cliquishness is  hugely counter-productive.  Being encouraging   is not the
same as  casually suggesting that just anyone can go.

As someone who has occasionally caved in penny loafers and flannel slacks
(after dinner with the governor in Bermuda - an island of 60 thousand, so
caving with the governor is about the same as caving with the mayor of
Carlsbad, but just more formal), I am not put off by someone who attends a
meeting for the first time in semiformal attire. What did she wear the
second time? Some people are just more formal than others, and it has
nothing to do with experience or capabilities. I'd suggest that it  is no
stranger than the Randy Gandy folk? One friend drives a classic Aston
Martin, but is perfectly comfortable slogging through the mud with the rest
of us. Being flexible is as much a state of mind as a state of one's
physical body.

M

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Lynda Sanchez 
wrote:

> I sent her more information about the book, referred her to the website
> (fscsp) and also to Pete should she want a copy of the book.  She was
> mainly interested in the book as a source of information and history.  In
> the future I will direct anyone either to Pete or to the website.  I think
> sometimes speaking to a “real” person helps too.
>
> It wouldn’t hurt if the Sandia Grotto folks would write up some of their
> field trips and things they do like the clean up at Sandia Cave.  That
> article was very good, and more of that kind of thing is needed in all
> areas where grottos exist.  It is a good way to recruit when people
> associate the name with a great learning experience or field trip.
>
> Lynda
>
> *From:* Linda Starr 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:54 PM
> *To:* Lynda Sanchez 
> *Cc:* Dwight  ; TAG Net  ; Cave
> Texas  ; Cave NM 
> *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
>
> Lynda,
>  What did you tell the UNM student?  The Sandia Grotto meets the 1st
> Tuesday of each month and we intend to have a recreational trip for new
> cavers once a month.  Please direct anyone near Albuquerque to the Sandia
> Grotto.  When we were doing this book, I didn't think of the opportunity to
> recruit new members.  If you need an address, it's on our website and we
> also have a Facebook page.  Pete is in charge of the grotto website. I
> don't have a URL offhand.
>
> Linda Starr
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Lynda Sanchez  > wrote:
>
>> Dwight,  it might get some folks interested and that is a first step.
>> However, they also have to have caves to explore and this is a major
>> problem at the moment in many areas.  We try to provide activities for all
>> levels of ability and interest.  That is why we mention ridge walking and
>> other surface activities.  We have gotten help in those areas too and
>> eventually those folks are great support.
>>
>> We have had many inquiries about this book from both cavers and
>> non-cavers.  As a result of this USATODAY article, today I received a phone
>> call from a student at UNM wanting to know more.
>>
>> Once you get younger folks out into the real world of mountains, deserts
>> and canyons, caves are not far behind, IF we can find some to explore that
>> is?!!
>>
>> We will keep you posted.
>>
>> Lynda
>>
>> *From:* Dwight 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:10 PM
>> *To:* TAG Net  ; Cave Texas
>>  ; Cave NM 
>> *Subject:* [SWR CAVERS] 12 miles in USA Today
>>
>> New Mexico's Lincoln County, Snowy River and Fort Stanton Cave make
>> headlines in USA TODAY!
>>
>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/local/2017/07/05/snowy-
>> river-book-sold-fort-stanton-live/453916001/
>>
>> Will this bring us some new NSS members?
>>
>> This news release does refer interested individuals to the Fort Stanton
>> Cave Study Project web site, but that is clearly written for established
>> cavers.  It gives the dates for the upcoming project schedule.
>>
>> Your web site is wonderful, conveys the right message, and 

Re: [Texascavers] Land ownership in Texas

[Michael Queen via Texascavers]

Re new membership, sometimes outing clubs evolve in ways that reflect the
interests of their advisers. Perhaps we could proactively approach outing
clubs and offer to lead trips or give some slide (or other) shows,
demonstrations of rope work, etc.??

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Dwight <dirt...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Thanks Mike. You are correct in that the private ownership of caves
> presents it's own set of potential problems.
>
> But you are not  correct about land ownership in Texas.  There is a LOT of
> "public" ownership, especially in West Texas. Much is held by the State of
> Texas, not the federal gvt. (except for the National Parks and a small
> national forest).  The General Land Office, Texas Parks and Wildlife, and
> school disricts are the largest public land owning bureaucracies but the
> land is often leased to individuals who treat it as their own private
> fiefdom.  That may not help much if you want access.
>
> DirtDoc
>
> --
> *From: *"Michael Queen" <jmofgu...@gmail.com>
> *To: *"Dwight" <dirt...@comcast.net>
> *Cc: *"TAG Net" <tag-...@hiddenworld.net>, idigca...@yahoo.com, "Cave NM"
> <swrcav...@googlegroups.com>, "Cave Texas" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, July 11, 2017 10:19:30 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [SWR CAVERS] Future of NSS membership
>
> I think it is a drastic oversimplification to suggest that private
> ownership of caves necessarily makes things easier for us or safer for the
> caves than agency ownership. We are still excluded from Skull Cave (Albany
> County, NY), because the owners were spooked by an accident (in a separate
> cave owned by different folk) back in about 1971. When a land management
> agency works well things are great, as they are with private owners.
> However, if things go south with private owners there is absolutely no
> recourse but to buy the caves, and often the owners don't want to sell.
> Look at what caving in Texas is like, with almost no public land ownership.
> Anyone who thinks you can just go caving wherever and whenever one wants
>  should think twice. So if we are lucky enough to know the land owners we
> can decry ownership by public agencies. But if we are not so lucky we
> should not too quickly criticize public ownership, and we should speak out
> against efforts to transfer federal lands to state or private ownership.
>
> MQ
>
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Future of NSS membership

[Michael Queen via Texascavers]

I think it is a drastic oversimplification to suggest that private
ownership of caves necessarily makes things easier for us or safer for the
caves than agency ownership. We are still excluded from Skull Cave (Albany
County, NY), because the owners were spooked by an accident (in a separate
cave owned by different folk) back in about 1971. When a land management
agency works well things are great, as they are with private owners.
However, if things go south with private owners there is absolutely no
recourse but to buy the caves, and often the owners don't want to sell.
Look at what caving in Texas is like, with almost no public land ownership.
Anyone who thinks you can just go caving wherever and whenever one wants
 should think twice. So if we are lucky enough to know the land owners we
can decry ownership by public agencies. But if we are not so lucky we
should not too quickly criticize public ownership, and we should speak out
against efforts to transfer federal lands to state or private ownership.

MQ

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 9:33 AM, Dwight  wrote:

>
>
> Hi John:
>
>
>
> I started caving in the east where private ownership of caves was the
> norm. New York and New England, then Virginia and West Virginia. I moved
> west and have dealt with government ownership of caves: State or Federal by
> various agencies. So I understand your issues quite well. In many ways it
> is fair to say that we cavers are now reaping what we have sowed. The
> history of the last 50 years of exploration and discovery in Ft. Stanton
> cave in New Mexico (as well documented in the recent publication *12
> Miles from Daylight*) so clearly documents the complications resulting
> from agency ownership. The way we go caving is affected by the way caves
> are owned and managed: by an individual, a family, a private trust, or a
> bureaucracy.
>
>
>
> That, however, is a different (but not entirely unrelated) question from
> the one I intended to ask, which was focused on the future membership of
> the NSS. How do we acquire new NSS members? Most members have been
> recruited either from existing cavers or by NSS groups recruiting new
> members from the interested public through structured educational and
> recruitment campaigns. Most of us probably agree that our goal is to create
> an educated public aware of the value and fragility of our cave resources
> as well as a body of people who actually spend some of their time exploring
> and studying caves.
>
>
>
> The intended goal of my question is to lead to new, younger, members of
> the NSS to carry on our goals into the changing future.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your thoughts and comments. You raise the management issues
> that complicate our enjoyment of "just going caving".
>
>
>
> DirtDoc
> xx
>  Dirt Doc Question
>   By: John Hutchison  (White House, Tennessee)
>   idigca...@yahoo.com
>
> Dwight Deal asked a question. "In your thinking, John, what is the
> balance between cavers and the caves? Our near-term experiences vrs the
> resource itself?'
>
> All I have to relate to is my own personal observance. In years past
> caves were much easier to visit when they were privately owned. Once
> government became involved the issue of access became a hassle, an extra
> expense, and worst of all, a no go. Today, most government owned, or
> controlled caves are closed outright (unless you know the right person).
> Others require a permit, hunting license fee, or all three. One area in
> my state wants to charge everyone $15 a day per vehicle for a day trip
> and that does not include a permit to go caving. No camping, no caving,
> even though there are some great caves on the property. It is also a
> hassle to acquire the land permit as you have to go when the office is
> open and it is often not close to where you want to go. Private
> landowners were much easier to deal with. You went, you asked and you
> got to go or you didn't. Free.
>
> Here in TN we had a great cove and cave called Camps Gulf. Both were
> pristine. Then the local state park acquired the cave and began
> shuttling non caver tourists to the cave. Once they knew where it was
> they would sometimes come back on their own and trash the cave. So that
> was the excuse used to gate off the entire cove. No more camping, no
> more driving a 4x4 up the cove. The cave was pristine before the state
> acquired it. So is it really better when everything is "proteceted"?
> Once "protected" people tend to sneak or breach a gate and vandalize
> just because they are P.O.'d that they can't access "public" owned land.
>
> So, as far as I can tell, the best protection of all, was not telling
> the general public where all the caves are. Grottoes were the best way
> to learn caver etiquette, proper procedures, safety, environmental
> concerns, technique, equipment, and cave locations while accompanied by
> trained cavers.
>
> The state of TN has bought up 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Andy Komensky

[Michael Queen]

Andy was the first caver I met here in the Guadalupes - the NSS member with
the lowest number. Meeting him changed the course of my life in ways large
and small. In a great many ways I trace much of the science, upon which my
life has centered, and many of my friends, who have made my life enjoyable,
to the afternoon I first met Andy here in Carlsbad. Heartfelt condolences
for Maureen's loss, and profound thanks to her for having kept Andy
healthier and happier than he would have been without her: we all were the
richer because of it. I shall indeed treasure my original Komenskys and the
memories they invoke. Indeed, Sir, Cave ho!

JMQ


On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Carol Belski 
wrote:

> He was a character that defined “character”.  He influenced so many of us
> so many times.  He will live on in legends and campfire tales.  His artwork
> should be cherished by all those who have any in their possession.  A sad
> day, but we must celebrate his life.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Peter Jones  wrote:
> >
> > I just found out tonight that my friend, caving mentor, father-in-law
> and caving legend Andy Komensky passed away tonight.  I was just thinking
> that I had not heard from him lately and was ready to send him an e-mail,
> seeing how he was doing, letting him know that I’d be staying with him and
> Maureen on my way to Convention in a couple of months.  So sad that to
> learn that we already had our last time together in August on my way home
> from Ely last summer.  There are not a whole lot of other people who so
> affected my life as Andy did.  Much more to say at a later time, but I will
> surely miss him deeply and remember him for all the things that he was in
> so many complex ways.
> >
> > Cave Ho, Andy.  Love you,
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
> --
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Re: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary

[michael queen]

Jim,

I appreciate the frustration involved in sending repeated inquiries and
comments to a land management agency and  receiving no reply. It has
happened to me on several occasions. Most of the time I just figure it's
typical bureaucratic snafu and am not quick to rock the boat, except where
the safety of caves or endangered critters  When that happened with the BLM
regional office in Roswell I felt action was demanded and wrote a number of
rather pointed letters to the head of the BLM, several senators, the
Presidents science adviser, and the President. Most were answered in a
polite manner assuring me that nothing was amiss. However, they contributed
to several senatorial inquiries being launched, and eventually the Roswell
district manager was reassigned, the Dark Canyon drilling proposal was
significantly modified and the cave protection zone was designated, and
they abandoned plans to have the CRF help look for potential grizzly dens
in the Capitans.

A vote approving a letter by the Chair inquiring after the status and
justifications of cave closures is not, in any way I can tell, the same as
approving that someone else write an FOIA request in the name of the SWR.
And to call the person who was chosen *a priori* with the intent of writing
the FOIA request a *liaison* is at best a distortion of the English
language.

Finally, while Pat raised the issue of whom might review all the documents,
I don't interpret that as volunteering to do it herself (in her spare
time?). Nor does it suggest that she has the right background in science to
evaluate those documents that involve science (not all Ph.D.s have a strong
science background). If there are a bunch of scientists in SWR it is they
who should review these, page by page and line by line. I include myself in
that group and would be glad to comment as appropriate.

I appreciate the significant amount of of work you all do in the interest
of caves and the SWR.  Please be assured that I do not question the concern
and frustration shared by SWR board members and others, just the way in
which they chose to pursue these concerns.

Michael


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 11:41 AM, jen . bigredfo...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Whoa!  I was there and my memory does not match yours.

 I remember that there were several abstentions on the motion.

 I also don't remember the motion stating that an illegal action was taken
 by the BLM.


 Jennifer

 --
 From: nmca...@centurylink.net
 To: jmofgu...@gmail.com
 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 10:29:05 -0600
 CC: s...@caver.net
 Subject: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary



 *Michael,*
 *Thank you for your comments.*

  *From:* michael queen jmofgu...@gmail.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2014 8:05 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [SWR] SWR BLM FOIA a mistake
  Stan raises some valid points, which have been criticized but not really
 addressed.
 *I’m sorry that you feel that way. They were addressed, by Steve Peerman,
 myself and others, in several emails.*

 It is not at all clear he was outvoted (since a vote of the SWR membership
 seems not to have been taken), nor that a consensus was sought or desired.

 *I’m sorry that you feel that way.  A unanimous vote did occur at the last
 regional that the Chair write the BLM asking for status and justifications
 for the continuing closure of 25 NM caves, an action taken that was
 illegal, in violation of BLM policy, and a breach of contract with the SWR.
 Mr. Allison was not there to vote.*

 His comments on bringing issues to the general membership via email are
 well made and should be discussed openly via internet as well as at the SWR
 meeting.


 *And they have been. I have, so far, 274 messages pertaining to the
 subject, all since May 9th. A great many of them, probably a majority, were
 on the SWR list server. I do not know how many persons are on that list
 server, but only about 30 of the ~147 regional members have taken the time
 to comment. That leaves nearly 80% of the region that have yet to be heard
 from, and need to be heard from.*
 Liaisons are usually chosen such that they can maintain a dialogue between
 groups and present the views of the group they represent. Synonyms for
 liaise include cooperate, collaborate, and work together. Steve Fleming was
 apparently chosen because of his familiarity with writing FOIA requests,
 which meant that course of action had been chosen before his appointment.
 Regardless of protestations to the contrary, an FOIA request is not
 designed to facilitate cooperation.

 *I’m sorry that you feel that way. The history of the SWR regarding
 federal land agencies proves otherwise, as I and others have previously
 attested. Anyone is welcome to dissent, but a working knowledge of the
 processes involved and undertaken, and their historical results, should
 first be obtained. Assertions that are based on opinion and not fact gain
 little if anything.*

 This is particularly true when, as Pat Seiser aptly brings up, it is not
 clear who

Re: [SWR] SWR BLM FOIA a mistake

[michael queen]

Stan raises some valid points, which have been criticized but not really
addressed. It is not at all clear he was outvoted (since a vote of the SWR
membership seems not to have been taken), nor that a consensus was sought
or desired. His comments on bringing issues to the general membership via
email are well made and should be discussed openly via internet as well as
at the SWR meeting.

Liaisons are usually chosen such that they can maintain a dialogue between
groups and present the views of the group they represent. Synonyms for
liaise include cooperate, collaborate, and work together. Steve Fleming was
apparently chosen because of his familiarity with writing FOIA requests,
which meant that course of action had been chosen before his appointment.
Regardless of protestations to the contrary, an FOIA request is not
designed to facilitate cooperation. This is particularly true when, as Pat
Seiser aptly brings up, it is not clear who in SWR can evaluate the
technical aspects of the BLM response.

Let me be absolutely clear: I have been a vocal critic of the CBD since it
became apparent that they were patently uninterested in facts, logic, or
science. When first I read their draft of the WNS suit I responded
positively, as a scientist (with as strong a background in biology as
geology), and tried to point out, point by point, weaknesses in their
analysis, all of which were ignored and remained uncorrected in their final
document. An examination of the degrees held by their staff revealed the
likely reason - lots of lawyers and few staff with a good science
background (BS's hardly qualify, unless accompanied by decades of
experience). From what I can gather, they are more concerned with keeping
up their income than with science, and without a sound footing in science,
concerns about biological diversity come across as window dressing. And I
have been acutely disappointed in the readiness with which BLM, USFS and
NPS have seemed to sign on to the CBD platform rather than countering with
good science and better data and logic. But it is certainly not clear to me
(and it seems some several others) that the FOIA request is the best way to
accomplish this. Is there no way that the conniving and misrepresentation
of the CBD can't be brought to the attention of the broader community of
ecologically concerned individuals, on whose continued support the group
depends for credibility? How can these arguments be presented on the
Internet, so that when one searches CBD one finds as many criticisms as
self-serving claims of helping save the planet?

Michael Queen


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Stan Allison stanalli...@netscape.net
wrote:

  Hi Jim,

  Well, you are probably not going to convince me that the SWR is a very
 democratic or representative organization and I'm probably not going to
 convince you that it is not. I don't think that I have any more to add to
 that discussion other than I would be happy to put my money where my
 mouth/keyboard is and assist the SWR with coming up with a means to
 institute electronic voting for officers and for special elections in
 significant matters such as BLM FOIA's if the leadership or membership so
 desires. I would appreciate it if you would make this known at the upcoming
 SWR business meeting to see if anyone is interested in my offer. If nothing
 else, electronic voting could save SWR members such as Peter Jones
 thousands of dollars on travelling to NM to participate in SWR politics. :)

  It is interesting that you mention that Steve Fleming was not appointed
 by the SWR chair but by unanimous consensus of the officers. I just
 reviewed the SWR constitution and read that the chair can delegate
 authority and assign committee chairpersons (Article V. Section 2 A).
 Bylaws Section 5 indicates that the Chair can appoint committees and their
 chairs. I couldn't find any mention in the SWR constitution that chairs can
 be appointed by unanimous consent of officers under than the SWR Chair.
 Since I'm obviously missing something, please let me know under what SWR
 constitutional authority did the officers appoint a federal liaison
 position independent of the chair?

  Unfortunately, I do think that the SWR is now in the same barrel of poop
 as the CBD. I think that you have created a concise and entertaining way of
 explaining the situation. Please don't blame me and the many other members
 who were never consulted on the decision to jump in that barrel. You, your
 fellow officers and a few outspoken and influential SWR members have
 yourselves to blame for joining the CBD in that stinky mess. You claim that
 the CBD operates by threat and open intimidation but that the SWR asks. I
 think that filing a FOIA comes under the realm of asking at gunpoint or via
 a lawsuit rather than asking with a smile and open heart.

  I appreciate your offer to exit the SWR and start another region, but I
 think I'll stick with the SWR as I think that it has a lot of good things
 going

Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM

[michael queen]

It is always a juggling act between trying to get some things done and
trying to maintain a constructive working relationship with, in this case,
BLM.  Was BLM informed that the board of the SWR was considering a request
for information under the FOIA? Or did it just fall from the sky on the
desk of whomever? FOIA provides leverage for those wanting to force
disclosure, but if used out of the blue can create the appearance of an
adversarial relationship, which defines subsequent interactions and may not
always be in ones'  best long term interests. It's a little like a trump
card that only has value before it's played. The card of last resort, as it
were, and that is said by one who hesitates not to write critical letters
to the highest levels, and with some guarded success.

 Michael Queen


On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:58 PM, dave belski bel...@valornet.com wrote:

  On 5/23/2014 12:25 PM, Ken Harrington wrote:

 Sam,

 While notes of agreement with the FOIA request are nice what we really
 need is for you and others to write e-mails to Jesse Juen at jjuen@blm.govand 
 express your support for release of the information requested and the
 opening of the caves by issuing permits.  Those writing in support of the
 FOIA on the SWR net should be aware that the SWR postings are read by BLM
 and other government agency personnel and we should refrain from any
 personal attacks on individuals.  Just write a simple e-mail requesting the
 re-opening of the caves and the issuing of permits to visit the caves.
 Ken


  *AMEN. The one fact  I have found out in my many years in the military,
 if you want to have pressure come down the chain of command, start at the
 top. It very rarely goes the other way.*

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Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas

[michael queen]

I have a hard time seeing humans as a significant vector in the spread of
WNS, and have seen no evidence that supports this as a reality, not just a
possibility. This includes the initial jump across the Atlantic. If humans
are a minor factor in the spread then we may expect the disease to run its
course as it is spread by  major vectors (bat-to-bat). Likewise, where
lands in the southeast are owned by a number of entities (USFS, NPS, state
lands, private lands, etc), closing any one could not possibly contain the
disease. What is as disturbing as the rapid spread of WNS is the seeming
bias introduced in its study. We hear repeatedly how *humans are a
vector*even as they ignore any and all suggestions to the contrary, as
for
instance the paper on geographic translocation in bats.

Although decon is a reasonable precaution to slow the spread of WNS, it
relies on the honesty and integrity of the people signing the forms.  And
for cavers with boots, we can imagine that few want to soak their boots in
sufficiently hot water for the requisite period of time. I might suggest
(a) that, wherever possible, that sneakers should   be used instead of
boots, as they are more easily sterilized, and may even be thrown out after
visiting an infected cave, and (b) that land management agencies, grottoes,
etc., maintain sets of gear that are dedicated to a particular cave or
group of caves, within which the chance of transmission by bats is high. If
gear and ropes are not moved between caves or cave groups, and clothes are
washed in hot water and bleached, then the chance of human transmission
might be minimized even if caving in affected areas continued.

I would also encourage land management agencies in the SW to follow the
analytic example set by the Rocky Mountain Region in the EIS considering
WNS, and not the example set by the Southern Region USFS in their proposed
closure. The latter lacks transparency, employs a heavy-handed,
one-size-fits-all approach, reflects more conjecture than science, and
lacks accountability of ideas, data and conclusions. Furthermore, the
excessively brief period allowed for comments sends the message that the
concern and experience of the caving community counts for little.

Michael Queen


On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net wrote:



 Humans have carried fungal spores across the entire planet and probably
 into space, so we should also take some responsibility for this catastrophe.

 Humans have been responsible for a number of serious threats to wildlife.
 Sometimes inadvertent, and other times purposeful, but I think it’s too
 early yet to accept responsibility for this one. Humans have taken action,
 whether or not we’re responsible. I certainly hope we haven’t already
 spread WNS across the entire universe.

 Derek Bristol



 Are there now bats in the space station??  Do they hang head up?  If they
 fly around every time the sun goes down, that means they go through 15.76
 sleep/awake cycles per day.  That must mean there are also a lot of moths
 on the space station.  Are there astronaut cavers as well?  I thought
 everything they wore in space was hyper-decontaminated before they set foot
 in the station.  Do the bats crap into special vacuum containers?

 All these questions must be researched and answered!!

 Peter


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 ___
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___
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Re: [SWR] Fw: [NSSwest] BOG proposal to end the printed News

[michael queen]

It would seem that this is part of the trade-offs of putting more money
into a new headquarters. It is ironic that one of the arguments used in
favor of a new Huntsville headquarters was that we might loose staff if it
were moved, and now we are talking about reducing office staff However,
I strongly believe, for various reasons outlined below, it is critical that
we retain a printed News at least as an option for members and
institutional supporters.

** The interest of many people is first attracted by seeing a magazine or
journal on a rack, picking it up and perusing it. Few people would do this
(without prior involvement) just scrolling through a list of online
subscriptions at a library, nor will friends of members ask OH, can I see
what online journals you have? No. But they commonly pick up my News,
their attention arrested by the attractive picture on the cover.

** At least with older members, I believe at least some of us LIKE sitting
down with a hard-copy journal or News and not in front of a screen.

** Reducing the visability of the society now by eliminating hard-copy News
would be like a failing restaurant cutting quality of food to stay afloat.
We all know what happens then - progressive cuts in staff and quality lead
to an irreversible downwards spiral, to which there is only one end.

There is only one long-term solution to this and that is a concerted
membership drive. This is especially clear when one examines the
demographics of our membership, which year by year is greyer and slower.
Attracting people to a failing society will be harder and harder if we
choose to continue to restrict what we offer.

Might I suggest:

** Every grotto set a goal of concertedly attracting 10% new members in the
next year and 20% over the next five years. This could be promoted by
having more of a concerted public outreach program where members with good
stories and slide shows give more frequent talks to local non-cave groups
(outing clubs, scouting groups, schools, Audubon Societies, junior chambers
of commerce, etc)

** Have grotto members (especially Fellows and Life Members) donate a few
dollars each year so that every grotto might award one or more  first-years
NSS memberships to a new, promising  attendee (unrelated to grotto
members). After being a member for a year it might be easier to convince
new people to maintain membership on their own.

** Offer a trial membership (student membership?) with reduced dues with
the first several months of hardcopy News and subsequent online
subscription. I strongly believe it is easier to maintain members than to
attract them initially.

** Allow new members to designate one person who was especially
instrumental in bringing them in, and give a one year membership discount
to that person. Multiple new members could result in an especially good
recruiter getting their own fees waived entirely.

** Encourage more donations (of* goods or services*), more attendance and
more vigorous bidding at the auctions, with some percent of the  money
raised pledged to the publication efforts of the society. One way to do
that might be to give donors of items for the auction  X percent  of the
hammer price, or a gift card for Y %  good for gift memberships or goods at
the NSS store (with X  Y: for example X = 25%, Y = 50%). The success of
auctions depends  on getting better things, more competitive bidders and
more bidders.  A more successful auction might also benefit from a page in
the News before the convention describing some of the premier items and
donors, and a page afterward covering some of the highlights,  and
successful bidders.

We are at a critical juncture for the Society: we are poorer because of
recent committments at a time when membership growth has been stagnant and
the society is greying. However, if we offer less to members, we will find
it harder and harder to keep up, and will be forced into more cuts making
it ever harder to attrct new members. This MUST BE ADDRESSED NOW! If we
wait ten years with continued failing recruitment, there will be fewer,
older members and it will be increasingly difficult to meet commitments and
recruitment goals. There's a line from Danny Devito in Other People's
Money, where he says something to the effect that there is one sure way of
going down the tubes- to get a bigger and bigger share of a shrinking
market. I hope the Society doesn't follow this course.

Michael Queen
13805


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Artisan Caver blandev...@comcast.netwrote:

  I agree with Dave Bunnell, that having the NSS News with an electronic
 option is a good thing. It could save the NSS some funds on publication
 costs. I don't believe that going totally electronic is best, because I
 collect them for the Sandia Grotto, and I look forward to seeing a hard
 copy come in the mail. Since I became a Life Member, I started to collect
 the NSS News. These copies have become part of my 'Caving Library'. I will
 also contact

Re: [SWR] Fw: [NSSwest] BOG proposal to end the printed News

[michael queen]

It would seem that this is part of the trade-offs of putting more money
into a new headquarters. It is ironic that one of the arguments used in
favor of a new Huntsville headquarters was that we might loose staff if it
were moved, and now we are talking about reducing office staff However,
I strongly believe, for various reasons outlined below, it is critical that
we retain a printed News at least as an option for members and
institutional supporters.

** The interest of many people is first attracted by seeing a magazine or
journal on a rack, picking it up and perusing it. Few people would do this
(without prior involvement) just scrolling through a list of online
subscriptions at a library, nor will friends of members ask OH, can I see
what online journals you have? No. But they commonly pick up my News,
their attention arrested by the attractive picture on the cover.

** At least with older members, I believe at least some of us LIKE sitting
down with a hard-copy journal or News and not in front of a screen.

** Reducing the visability of the society now by eliminating hard-copy News
would be like a failing restaurant cutting quality of food to stay afloat.
We all know what happens then - progressive cuts in staff and quality lead
to an irreversible downwards spiral, to which there is only one end.

There is only one long-term solution to this and that is a concerted
membership drive. This is especially clear when one examines the
demographics of our membership, which year by year is greyer and slower.
Attracting people to a failing society will be harder and harder if we
choose to continue to restrict what we offer.

Might I suggest:

** Every grotto set a goal of concertedly attracting 10% new members in the
next year and 20% over the next five years. This could be promoted by
having more of a concerted public outreach program where members with good
stories and slide shows give more frequent talks to local non-cave groups
(outing clubs, scouting groups, schools, Audubon Societies, junior chambers
of commerce, etc)

** Have grotto members (especially Fellows and Life Members) donate a few
dollars each year so that every grotto might award one or more  first-years
NSS memberships to a new, promising  attendee (unrelated to grotto
members). After being a member for a year it might be easier to convince
new people to maintain membership on their own.

** Offer a trial membership (student membership?) with reduced dues with
the first several months of hardcopy News and subsequent online
subscription. I strongly believe it is easier to maintain members than to
attract them initially.

** Allow new members to designate one person who was especially
instrumental in bringing them in, and give a one year membership discount
to that person. Multiple new members could result in an especially good
recruiter getting their own fees waived entirely.

** Encourage more donations (of* goods or services*), more attendance and
more vigorous bidding at the auctions, with some percent of the  money
raised pledged to the publication efforts of the society. One way to do
that might be to give donors of items for the auction  X percent  of the
hammer price, or a gift card for Y %  good for gift memberships or goods at
the NSS store (with X  Y: for example X = 25%, Y = 50%). The success of
auctions depends  on getting better things, more competitive bidders and
more bidders.  A more successful auction might also benefit from a page in
the News before the convention describing some of the premier items and
donors, and a page afterward covering some of the highlights,  and
successful bidders.

We are at a critical juncture for the Society: we are poorer because of
recent committments at a time when membership growth has been stagnant and
the society is greying. However, if we offer less to members, we will find
it harder and harder to keep up, and will be forced into more cuts making
it ever harder to attrct new members. This MUST BE ADDRESSED NOW! If we
wait ten years with continued failing recruitment, there will be fewer,
older members and it will be increasingly difficult to meet commitments and
recruitment goals. There's a line from Danny Devito in Other People's
Money, where he says something to the effect that there is one sure way of
going down the tubes- to get a bigger and bigger share of a shrinking
market. I hope the Society doesn't follow this course.

Michael Queen
13805


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Artisan Caver blandev...@comcast.netwrote:

  I agree with Dave Bunnell, that having the NSS News with an electronic
 option is a good thing. It could save the NSS some funds on publication
 costs. I don't believe that going totally electronic is best, because I
 collect them for the Sandia Grotto, and I look forward to seeing a hard
 copy come in the mail. Since I became a Life Member, I started to collect
 the NSS News. These copies have become part of my 'Caving Library'. I will
 also contact

Re: [SWR] Fw: [NSSwest] BOG proposal to end the printed News

[michael queen]

It would seem that this is part of the trade-offs of putting more money
into a new headquarters. It is ironic that one of the arguments used in
favor of a new Huntsville headquarters was that we might loose staff if it
were moved, and now we are talking about reducing office staff However,
I strongly believe, for various reasons outlined below, it is critical that
we retain a printed News at least as an option for members and
institutional supporters.

** The interest of many people is first attracted by seeing a magazine or
journal on a rack, picking it up and perusing it. Few people would do this
(without prior involvement) just scrolling through a list of online
subscriptions at a library, nor will friends of members ask OH, can I see
what online journals you have? No. But they commonly pick up my News,
their attention arrested by the attractive picture on the cover.

** At least with older members, I believe at least some of us LIKE sitting
down with a hard-copy journal or News and not in front of a screen.

** Reducing the visability of the society now by eliminating hard-copy News
would be like a failing restaurant cutting quality of food to stay afloat.
We all know what happens then - progressive cuts in staff and quality lead
to an irreversible downwards spiral, to which there is only one end.

There is only one long-term solution to this and that is a concerted
membership drive. This is especially clear when one examines the
demographics of our membership, which year by year is greyer and slower.
Attracting people to a failing society will be harder and harder if we
choose to continue to restrict what we offer.

Might I suggest:

** Every grotto set a goal of concertedly attracting 10% new members in the
next year and 20% over the next five years. This could be promoted by
having more of a concerted public outreach program where members with good
stories and slide shows give more frequent talks to local non-cave groups
(outing clubs, scouting groups, schools, Audubon Societies, junior chambers
of commerce, etc)

** Have grotto members (especially Fellows and Life Members) donate a few
dollars each year so that every grotto might award one or more  first-years
NSS memberships to a new, promising  attendee (unrelated to grotto
members). After being a member for a year it might be easier to convince
new people to maintain membership on their own.

** Offer a trial membership (student membership?) with reduced dues with
the first several months of hardcopy News and subsequent online
subscription. I strongly believe it is easier to maintain members than to
attract them initially.

** Allow new members to designate one person who was especially
instrumental in bringing them in, and give a one year membership discount
to that person. Multiple new members could result in an especially good
recruiter getting their own fees waived entirely.

** Encourage more donations (of* goods or services*), more attendance and
more vigorous bidding at the auctions, with some percent of the  money
raised pledged to the publication efforts of the society. One way to do
that might be to give donors of items for the auction  X percent  of the
hammer price, or a gift card for Y %  good for gift memberships or goods at
the NSS store (with X  Y: for example X = 25%, Y = 50%). The success of
auctions depends  on getting better things, more competitive bidders and
more bidders.  A more successful auction might also benefit from a page in
the News before the convention describing some of the premier items and
donors, and a page afterward covering some of the highlights,  and
successful bidders.

We are at a critical juncture for the Society: we are poorer because of
recent committments at a time when membership growth has been stagnant and
the society is greying. However, if we offer less to members, we will find
it harder and harder to keep up, and will be forced into more cuts making
it ever harder to attrct new members. This MUST BE ADDRESSED NOW! If we
wait ten years with continued failing recruitment, there will be fewer,
older members and it will be increasingly difficult to meet commitments and
recruitment goals. There's a line from Danny Devito in Other People's
Money, where he says something to the effect that there is one sure way of
going down the tubes- to get a bigger and bigger share of a shrinking
market. I hope the Society doesn't follow this course.

Michael Queen
13805


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Artisan Caver blandev...@comcast.netwrote:

  I agree with Dave Bunnell, that having the NSS News with an electronic
 option is a good thing. It could save the NSS some funds on publication
 costs. I don't believe that going totally electronic is best, because I
 collect them for the Sandia Grotto, and I look forward to seeing a hard
 copy come in the mail. Since I became a Life Member, I started to collect
 the NSS News. These copies have become part of my 'Caving Library'. I will
 also contact