Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from NTPserver?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Paul think synchronous data transmission where you cant detect enough 
signal to synchronise reliably via the bit edges received. Initially 
developed for LF (136kHz) where the ERP of amateur antennas is very low. 
Google Joe Taylor but not for his Nobel prize, who's original interest was 
Moonbounce communication. He has now generated modes for LF too.

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "paul swed" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is it sensible to update every few seconds from 
NTPserver?




Interesting I am unaware of any amateur service requiring that tight of
a timing relationship.
At least modern PC clocks do not drift that badly in a few minutes. So it
is pretty odd.
Without further detail I am at a loss for why you need to do that.
Maybe he is tinkering with spreadspectrum?
Regards
Paul

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 5:04 PM, David  wrote:


Some Windows NTP clients like Tardis can calculate and implement a
clock frequency adjustment instead of stepping the clock if the time
adjustment is below a specified limit.  If he was using an application
that was upset by the time being stepped, then that might allow less
frequent updates.

If he is polling that often to maintain accurate time, then I would
assume he is using a local known to be accurate NTP server.

There are Windows NTP clients which will synchronize to GPS PPS time.
That should be better than stock hardware and Windows can handle
anyway.  Something like a Garmin GPS18 is specified to be within 1uS
and has a pulse to pulse jitter in the 10s of nanoseconds.

On Wed, 7 Nov 2012 21:41:36 +, David Kirkby
 wrote:

>Someone at my radio club uses some mode of operation where accurate
>time is required. He said the standard Windoze clock does not keep
>sufficiently accurate, so he has software which updates from an NTP
>server every 4 seconds or so. It's not exactly a denial of service
>(DOS) attack, but seems almost close to it in NTP terms to me. I can't
>really believe updating every few seconds is sensible myself, but he
>assures me it works very well. (I'm rather hoping it does not use a
>stratum 1 server!)
>
>I'm sure someone will say if you want accurate time on a PC, to use
>some combination of GPS, rubidium or OCXO with a 1 pps pulse and a
>serial port on a FreeBSD or similar computer. But that's probably not
>practical if your software only works on Windoze.
>
>Any comments?
>
>Dave, G8WRB.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Best phase detector / mixer for 100MHz?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Anders, isn't this format exactly what is inside the high level mixers 
(spec'e +17dBm) from Minicircuits?

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Anders Time" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 3:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Best phase detector / mixer for 100MHz?



I have been using an minicircuits mixer as a phase detector for measuring
low frequency(5-10MHz) and it is usually good enough. But when I want to
measure 100MHz the sensitivity of the mixer decreases a lot, so when I 
want

to measure some really low noise 100MHz(Pascall -178dBc floor with 18dBm
out) oscillators the sensitivity is not good enough. I read in an old
article by Walls, Stein et al(Design considerations in state-of-the-art
signal processing and phase noise measurement system) that one can use two
diodes in series in the double balanced mixer to increase the sensitivity.
I tried this with some standard 1n5711 Schottky and the sensitivity is now
1V/rad, but is there a easier way to do this? /Anders
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Re: [time-nuts] Best phase detector / mixer for 100MHz?

[Alan Melia]

Not unreasonable Bruce..no free lunches etc.  :-))
Alan
G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Best phase detector / mixer for 100MHz?




NIST have shown (at least at 10MHz) that the high level mixers they tested 
are noisier than the ZRPD1.


Bruce

Alan Melia wrote:
Hi Anders, isn't this format exactly what is inside the high level mixers 
(spec'e +17dBm) from Minicircuits?

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - From: "Anders Time" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 3:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Best phase detector / mixer for 100MHz?


I have been using an minicircuits mixer as a phase detector for 
measuring

low frequency(5-10MHz) and it is usually good enough. But when I want to
measure 100MHz the sensitivity of the mixer decreases a lot, so when I 
want

to measure some really low noise 100MHz(Pascall -178dBc floor with 18dBm
out) oscillators the sensitivity is not good enough. I read in an old
article by Walls, Stein et al(Design considerations in state-of-the-art
signal processing and phase noise measurement system) that one can use 
two
diodes in series in the double balanced mixer to increase the 
sensitivity.
I tried this with some standard 1n5711 Schottky and the sensitivity is 
now

1V/rad, but is there a easier way to do this? /Anders
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Re: [time-nuts] C-MAC hookup

[Alan Melia]

Joe do you have a model number I have a C-Mac data book for this company and 
they have a wide variety of packages

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Gray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:21 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] C-MAC hookup



A friend just got a C-MAC Sine 10MHz Double Oven Oscillator and asked
me to see if anyone here knows how to hook it up and get it working.

Joe Gray
W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] 12.8 MHz OCXO

[Alan Melia]

Joe the reason why its not so uncommon may not be obvious in the US :-)) 
12.8MHz is used as a reference for commercial and amateur PLLs in Europe 
where the common channel spacing is 12.5kHz (/1024) or 6.25kHz (/2048). This 
may mean that 12.8MHz oscillators may be more easily found in Europe ?? A 
TCXO should be capable of 0.1ppm. I have seem a lot in mobile/cellular 
product from a UK firm called Golledge but I dont know what the specs were.


Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Gray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 12.8 MHz OCXO



David,

Thanks for the links, but none of those meet my 0.25 ppm requirement.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:55 AM, David C. Partridge
 wrote:

With only 0.25ppm needed would a TCXO do?

Howsabout this:



or



or even




Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
Behalf Of Joseph Gray

Sent: 24 November 2012 08:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] 12.8 MHz OCXO

Can anyone recommend an inexpensive 12.8 MHz OCXO that outputs a sine 
wave? I've looked online, but the only ones I find costs hundreds of 
dollars. Anything 0.25 ppm or better is fine. A Vcc of 5-13.8 VDC 
preferred.


Joe Gray
W5JG

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Re: [time-nuts] Cinox source

[Alan Melia]

Have you tried Princeton Applied Research who seem to own the EG&G rights 
now??

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Cinox source




I realize this is pretty mundane for such an elite group, but would anyone 
have some information(specifically the pinout) for an EG&G Cinox 10Mhz 
source. It has the following numbers printed on it: 10085-0611 and 
20296-1891 and has three feedthrus labelled E1(orange wire), E2(black 
wire), and E3(yellow wire) and also a connector which is either an SMB or 
an MMCX(I can never remember which is which). Thanks for any and all help.


John K0GCJ



Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50c4f158e437715802a6st02duc

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Re: [time-nuts] noisy varactor diodes

[Alan Melia]

The HP sceme in the patent refers to an array of series and parallel
diodes to reduce noise.

Just paralleling them does not reduce the noise!


Might this not depend what the type of noise was ?? JRC use this technique 
in the RF stage of their receivers but I am wondering if this is only valid 
for Gaussian noise??   the faulty diode looked anything but Gaussian. Is 
there a situation here where we are not consider noise power which should 
add(??) but in the case of the JRC receiver S/S+N ..maybe C/C+N ( 
 :-)) ) i.e it is the effect of the noise on the total capacitance in terms 
of the "FM noise" it produces??


The commonly called Zener diodes will work, all diffused diodes have an 
approximately square-law voltage capacitance relationship. Avalanche diodes 
("zeners" above 6v Vbr :-))  ) are made with big junction areas so can give 
high capacitance. The lower the breadown voltage, the narrower the depletion 
layer so the bigger the static capacitance. However the surfaces might not 
be so well controlled as diodes intended for RF use. The noise demonstrated 
was probably a surface state effect rather than a bulk defect.


Alan
G3NYK


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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue 152

[Alan Melia]

Volker.look at the subject line, the posting is in your hands, you dont 
need to just use the reply button, as somone did with a "digest" which 
forked the thread.. This means all the posing under "Digest" are hidden 
from view and searching. You can edit the subject line but this does not 
always return to the old thread if you use he reply button. I think it 
depends on the mail client.

Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Volker Esper" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 101, Issue 152




Plot 1: MDEV of the time interval reported by GPSDO
Yes, Said, that are important issues.

By the way: I'm now writing in two threads, I don't know, why the original 
thread ("Z3805A cooling requirements?") was splitted... Can we please move 
to the original thread?


I am sure, that the noise of the GPSDO PPS-TI data is much to high to 
recognize the effects. I'm going to make a new setup, where I'll compare 
the GPSDO PPS with an external oscilator, e.g. an HP 10544 or the "high 
stability reference" within my SMX signal generator.


Volker


Am 22.12.2012 05:07, schrieb Said Jackson:

Hi Volker,

What is being plotted here? Efc? Time interval as reported by the GPSDO? 
External counter versus a stable reference?


It looks like the resolution is approaching 10ns/s (1E-08 at 1s), and 
that the short term effects may be hidden in this noise?


The effects are clearly visible in your first GPSCon plot, not sure if we 
can see the short term noise in these plots..


The 10811 I had tested went from ~3E-012 at 100s to ~2E-011 when the fan 
was on, I think both values are quite a bit below the noise floor of your 
plot so probably hard to measure.


Bye,
Said

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 21, 2012, at 6:47 PM, Volker Esper  wrote:


Said,

Unfortunately I don't have the equipment to measure the phase noise of 
an HP 10811 (yet).


But I did some work on evaluating the results of my fan experiment. 
Within this posting you'll find two diagrams. The first (named 
"1_DF9PL...") shows five MDEV curves (Modified Allan Deviation), each of 
them measured at different times. Total time span is 30.5 hours.


At small tau values (up to 1000 s) only a slight increase of sigma over 
time can be noticed. However, at a tau of 5000 s or greater you can 
watch sigma making a big bump. Ok, that's what we expected before.


In diagram no. 1 it's somewhat fussy to recognize the change of a 
particular sigma(tau). Now, that we've got curious, we want to see, how 
the sigma(tau) changes over time. So I've been providing a second 
diagram ("2_..."), where sigma(tau) is a function of the time.


You can see, for example, the curve of tau=20480s developing a big hump, 
and falling back to a proper value after about 1800 minutes. All curves 
at a tau greater or equal 2560 do so.


At smaller values the curves are esentially less affected, but - they 
are not back at their starting value after 1800 minutes (30 hours)! You 
could guess, that the hump moves up to longer times with increasing 
sigma - but it doesn't. There is something significantly different below 
tau=2560s.


1 hour ago, I switched off the fan and laid back the aluminium cover. We 
wait and see.


And now, dear time nuts, it's time to go to bed.

Volker




Am 21.12.2012 18:53, schrieb Said Jackson:

Mark,

Your plot still shows excursions of +/-1E-010, about 100x higher base 
noise than the Z3801A/Z3805A are capable of achieving. Wonder where 
that noise is coming from? This noise is probably much higher than the 
thermal effects.


The original post was the question "does my Z380xA have reduced 
stability if I add a fan" or similar, I think the answer is shown to be 
"yes".


Volker, I wonder if you also see fan-induced spurs in the phase noise 
from 1Hz to 100Hz. I would not be surprised if the fan vibration adds 
significant spurs to the 10811A crystal.


Bye,
Said

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 21, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Mark Spencer 
wrote:


This plot should show the frequency change more clearly.   (Same data 
just presented differently.)


It seems to me that the noise goes may be going down a bit for a 
minute or so just after the fan is turned on but I don't believe these 
plots provide conclusive evidence of this.



Regards
Mark Spencer

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:27:29 -0800
From: Said Jackson
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3805A cooling requirements?
Message-ID:<83ce0384-2996-4155-b51b-9d79910b2...@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii

Great plots guys!

Looking at these results I think my original claim still
holds: ADEV goes up when a fan is involved versus no fan,
even on a double oven 10811..

Clearly visible on the 10811, maybe not so much on the MV89
but that unit seems to have frequency moves 

Re: [time-nuts] Questions about TAC frontend, and some measurements

[Alan Melia]

Hi Fabio taking BJTs deep into saturation stores a lot of charge in the 
collector base capacitance. this must br discharged before a state change 
can occur.  LSTTL gets round this and gets the speed at lower currents by 
clamping the collector to only just in saturation with a schottky diode 
between base and collector. Higher speeds are obtained with a long-tail pair 
like configuration, which switches (diverts) the current flow between left 
and right transistors for the two logic states. The current and power 
dissipation is high but speeds 10 times saturated logic are obtainable. see 
ECL, MECL, or PECL logic family schematics.


Alan
G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Fabio Eboli" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Questions about TAC frontend, and some measurements



Hello, Bruce


Using saturated transistors as switches in the current source and
elsewhere isn't conducive to fast switching.
The traditional arrangement using current mode switches is much
faster and more predictable.


This is something I'd like to understand better.

I'm referring to this schematic here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14336723@N08/8293076065/
Q2 and Q5 are saturating toward the end of the
ramp pulse, when the ramp capacitor C1 starts
to go up.
I was prepared to see the circuit I designed
fail miserably on switch time, but it seem
to be working, as far as I could see on the DSO.
As far I can understand, the fact that Q2 and Q6
don't saturate, saves the circuit, since
at the end of the ramp, when Q1 and Q5 are
into saturation, Q6 is able to steer the
current to ground, and reverse bias BE (and CB)
of Q5. Is this correct, or I was only
lucky with the specific parts I used?


Buffering the ramp with an opamp requires that the opamp settling
time be known so that the opamp has fully settled before a sample is
taken. With a charge redistribution ADC that has a sampling switch
connected to a capacitor array a buffer isnt usually necessary.

Bruce



I was planning to read the voltage with a microcontroller's ADC.
I will set a fixed delay from the PPS rising edge and start
sampling there. To do so I need that the voltage on integrating
capacitor to stay reasonably stable during the delay.

Fabio

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Re: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators

[Alan Melia]

Hi Daniel, I cant remember the reference the web site might help but there 
have been at least a couple of articles on YIG modules in VHF Comms magazine

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel Mendes" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 2:19 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] YIG oscillators




Hi, maybe this topic is a bit boundary for this list, but i´ll just ask
for general directions

I´ve discovered these wonderfull bits of hardware called YIG (Yttrium
iron garnet) Oscillators (and filters!) in Ebay. If someone doesn´t know
what i´m talking about, they are very broadband tunnable oscillators and
filters. Now, the questions:

1) Does someone has some good references about them?

2) Can I get them new from somewere in decent prices or just collect the
trash from ebay? (as most of our Rubudium, OCXOs, Thunderbolts, etc)

Thank you for any help...

Daniel

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Re: [time-nuts] eLoran for GPS backup

[Alan Melia]

Hi Chuck, It never went off!! The French are spear-heading this. An 
experimental eLoran station was run from Rugby (GBR site) before it finally 
closed then the gear was relocated to be run by VT Communications, now 
Babcock I believe, based on Anthorn (south bank of the Solway Firth). This 
uses the gear that was originally destinded for Loop Head in Ireland (but 
cancelled due to local protest) as the 3rd slave on the Lessay chain. 
Anthorn is not ideal but it was already a Mil VLF (19.6kHz) site. The 
original experiment was mounted from Trinity House, the Lights an Nav 
authority for the UK, at their base in Harwich just across the river from 
me. The French have attempted to resurect the Mediteranean chain but have 
had no interest. Most of the financers of the Baltic Sylt chain do not seem 
enthusiastic but it remains on (I believe subsidised by the French)


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R" 

To: "ExTek" ; "time-nuts" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 8:04 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] eLoran for GPS backup



The Brits are turning their Loran system back on to protect against GPS
outages from jamming or space weather:

http://www.gpsworld.com/uk-switches-on-eloran-for-backup-in-the-english-channel/

--
 Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX   c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430


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Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist?

[Alan Melia]

I dont have the reference in front of me but it might just be worth checking 
the article archive for the Elektor magazine.I have a vague feeing I 
might have seen something there. Many of their past projects have used the 
LPT as a programmable port. There should be an article index on their web 
site I think.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "J. L. Trantham" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 1:09 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist?



Not sure where to ask this question but thought I would start here.



Is there a way to connect a parallel port to a computer via USB?  Not a
device that shows up as 'USB Print Support' but, instead, shows up in 
Device

Manager as an LPT port?  I have been able to do it via PCMCIA to Parallel
Port adapters but I have never found a USB device that would do this.



My goal is to connect a parallel port chip programmer via USB but the
software only looks for LPT ports.  It works with PCMCIA to parallel port
adapters but I haven't solved the puzzle yet with a USB connected device.



Thanks in advance.



Joe

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Re: [time-nuts] PTS 3200 remote programming

[Alan Melia]

Hi Iban do you have a manual? they are available. From memory because its a 
while since I worked on my Wavetek- Rockland unit I believe the remote 
programming is in parallel with the front panel switches. The reason for 
raising this is that there may be a problem on the back of the panel 
switches.mabe a wire off. Does the 800Mhz front panel switch setting 
work correctly ??


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Iban Cardona" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] PTS 3200 remote programming



Hi,

I'm traying to use to program the bcd interface of a PTS 3200.

My truble us tha the 100Mhz decade 8 value bit is ignored by the PTS,
then if I send 800Mhz to the PTS dont get output, and if send 900Mhz
then I get 100Mhz.

I checked the unit and the hardware looks OK. And my code is working
well in another PTS units like the 620.

The 3200 have some trick?

Thanks for all

73! Iban
eb3frn
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Re: [time-nuts] PTS 3200 remote programming

[Alan Melia]

Hi Iban well my knowledge of the older generation is not much use to you 
:-)) still I always think any response will bring more comments "out of the 
woodwork" even if only to correct the false impressions. The suggestion of 
of a faulty chip on that remote digit sounds like a worthwhile way to go.


Good Luck with it these are useful units if a bit big by modern standards.
Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Iban Cardona" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PTS 3200 remote programming



Hi Alan,

thanks for answer. Yes I have the manual, but the latches on my pts
not are as are showed in the user manual. Maybe my unit it is a
different version or release, or have some customozation from the pts
guys.

In myunit, I tested the SO-2005 module that is that generates the
100Mhz decade, and I tested manually the 4bit to generate the 800Mhz
and works well.

My unit dont have front panel, only can be controllated remotelly.

The differences from the user manual, is that un the user manual the
1ghz and 100mhz decade shares latch, and in my unit the shares latch
the 100mhz with the 10mhz. The 1ghz latch is shared by the 1hz decade.

Best regards

73! Iban
eb3frn


On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Alan Melia  
wrote:
Hi Iban do you have a manual? they are available. From memory because its 
a

while since I worked on my Wavetek- Rockland unit I believe the remote
programming is in parallel with the front panel switches. The reason for
raising this is that there may be a problem on the back of the panel
switches.mabe a wire off. Does the 800Mhz front panel switch setting
work correctly ??

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - From: "Iban Cardona" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] PTS 3200 remote programming



Hi,

I'm traying to use to program the bcd interface of a PTS 3200.

My truble us tha the 100Mhz decade 8 value bit is ignored by the PTS,
then if I send 800Mhz to the PTS dont get output, and if send 900Mhz
then I get 100Mhz.

I checked the unit and the hardware looks OK. And my code is working
well in another PTS units like the 620.

The 3200 have some trick?

Thanks for all

73! Iban
eb3frn
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Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale

[Alan Melia]

Some of the older synchronised signal generators (2-box systems) e.g 
Marconi, used TNC connectors with solid coax where signal leakage was likely 
to be a problem.

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Volker Esper" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale




Yes, we all have to learn that lesson...

At the time I use bedea RG-223 and Belden H155 with soldered and crimped 
Telegaertner BNC connectors as general purpose cable (up to 2 GHz). Above 
that frequency I wouldn't use BNC. If you simply connect your tracking 
generator with the spectrum analyzer by using such a BNC cable there's not 
one that is absolutely stable when stressing the connector. I tried 
several manufacturers, HP, Suhner, Radiall, Rosenberger, it's always the 
same.


To make precise measurements I prefer screwed connectors like N or SMA.

Volker


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Re: [time-nuts] Releasing sources (was Re: Brooks Shera)

[Alan Melia]

Hi John Please dont take it down! remember there are more of us who quietly
appreciate sites like yours. I once suggested to a query the answer was in
the help file and background by googling or using wikipedia, and was told it
was a lot easier and quicker to play dumb and ask.!!

I also suggest you do as some do and say "This is not a beginners project.
If you do not understand the requirements or have the construction skills,
please dont expect support for a freebie"

It prob wont stop it but it will give your a clearer conscience when you 
decline to reply :-))

Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "NeonJohn" 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 6:16 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Releasing sources (was Re: Brooks Shera)





On 03/25/2013 09:36 AM, Jim Lux wrote:


One reason is that if one DOES release source, one will wind up
supporting it, because generally, we all nice people and helpful, and
it's hard to tell someone no when they send an email asking how to get
it to compile on Version N+3 when you used version N, etc.  This can be
a real distraction from whatever else you are doing.


Boy, you can say that again.  And open source hardware is even worse.  A
couple of years ago I put up an open source induction heater on my site.
Everything included - schematics, board layouts, CAD files, theory of
operation, how to wind the transformer - in short, everything I could
think of.  There's even a kit available from Fluxeon.com.

Yet I probably spend an hour a day responding to emails about that
project.  Approximately 100% of the questions are either answered on my
site or by a little googling.  It's getting to be enough of a burden
that I'm considering taking the page down.

I'm a dedicated supporter of Open Source but this experience has
tempered my enthusiasm a bit.


And then there's the folks who argue with you about your implementation
or coding style.


Or electrical design style.  I think that the people who want to argue
design, especially "what if I did this?" type arguments are more
tiresome than the software know-it-alls.

People need to really think and do their Google homework before hitting
the email button on a project site.

John


--
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.fluxeon.com  <-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77
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[time-nuts] GPS antenna??

[Alan Melia]

Hi all an interesting problem you may have encountered, I want to use a GPS 
frequency standard inside a building with no opening windows (opening 
windows are known as air conditioning in the UK :-))  )
This is part of a two day amateur microwave conference so we should have the 
expertise.


I intend to try and pass the signal through a a double glazed glass window 
unit (hopefully not metalised) using a couple of patch antennas. The outer 
GPS antenna is active so will need  a 5v supply via an inserter. Inner patch 
active, outer patch passive to avoid problems of feedback. Main antenna can 
be shielded from the "coupling" either physically or with a slab of 
absorber.


Has anyone tried this? does it work?.any gotchas?

Thanks
Alan
G3NYK 


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??

[Alan Melia]

Hi Bob yes it is South facing.I may have todo that anyway because the 
window may be too far above ground level (the land slopes away from the 
ground entrance.. pity I had totally forgotten that.


Thanks
Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Camp" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??



Hi

Is the proposed window south facing? If not, you will need enough cable
outdoors to get your second antenna to a south facing location.

Assuming it's south facing and reasonable sky view, have you tried a patch
antenna on / at the window? That should at least give you some idea of how
likely the signal is to get through it. It's not uncommon to run GPSDO's
with window mounted antennas.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Melia
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 1:00 PM
To: time-nuts measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??

Hi all an interesting problem you may have encountered, I want to use a 
GPS

frequency standard inside a building with no opening windows (opening
windows are known as air conditioning in the UK :-))  )
This is part of a two day amateur microwave conference so we should have 
the


expertise.

I intend to try and pass the signal through a a double glazed glass window
unit (hopefully not metalised) using a couple of patch antennas. The outer
GPS antenna is active so will need  a 5v supply via an inserter. Inner 
patch


active, outer patch passive to avoid problems of feedback. Main antenna 
can

be shielded from the "coupling" either physically or with a slab of
absorber.

Has anyone tried this? does it work?.any gotchas?

Thanks
Alan
G3NYK

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??

[Alan Melia]

Hi Tom yes I have produced some similar plots I think they get "cold feet" 
about 70deg N. I'm not sure of the actual value it is a long time since I 
played with that last.

Alan
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??



Aren't GPS birds all over the sky. South facing is for the Clarke belt.


Well, mostly all over, but with higher probability facing up, east, west, 
and towards the equator compared to significant "black hole" towards the 
pole. For example, see the GPS reception sky map of John's TBolt: 
http://ke5fx.com/heather/readme.htm


For those of you down under, the hole is south rather than north, of 
course.


/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??

[Alan Melia]

Hi David yes its ferro-concrete which makes quite a good screen (a lot worse 
than domestic brick) but the windows are not coated I think. (BT Labs at 
Martlesham)


Thanks all for some thought stimulating ideas .GPSDO outside might not 
be too easy1U rack case mains poweredno power available outside but 
10MHz (or 5MHz in this case) coupling through wall or window is a lot easier 
if I had a battery powered unit.I have a feeling there may be battery 
back-up terminals on it must get the book out.


The windows are SW I think but give a good view of a quadrant of the sky. It 
will be interesting to see how long it takes to lock up compared with an 
outside antenna.


Thanks and Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK



- Original Message - 
From: "David J Taylor" 

To: "time-nuts measurement" 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??


Hi all an interesting problem you may have encountered, I want to use a 
GPS

frequency standard inside a building with no opening windows (opening
windows are known as air conditioning in the UK :-))  )
This is part of a two day amateur microwave conference so we should have 
the

expertise.

I intend to try and pass the signal through a a double glazed glass window
unit (hopefully not metalised) using a couple of patch antennas. The outer
GPS antenna is active so will need  a 5v supply via an inserter. Inner 
patch
active, outer patch passive to avoid problems of feedback. Main antenna 
can

be shielded from the "coupling" either physically or with a slab of
absorber.

Has anyone tried this? does it work?.any gotchas?

Thanks
Alan
G3NYK
===

Alan,

Here I am on the top floor of a standard house, and get an adequate signal 
for today's GPS receivers with simple patch antennas.  One GPS I have is 
in a walk-in cupboard adjacent to a north-facing outside wall.  Obviously, 
there are no guarantees, but you may get away with just being adjacent to 
an outside wall, or getting the puck near the non-opening window (but that 
may be worse than the wall).


If it /must/ be a GPS relay like you are suggesting, perhaps for multiple 
receivers inside a room, I can't help.  Be sure to place the puck on an 
appropriate ground plane - I find a clean, unused baking tray to be 
perfect!


73,
David GM8ARV
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??

[Alan Melia]

Hi Tom Ah I didnt realise there were such beastsI probably have not the 
time left now but it is one to consider.
Yes I might have to watch the patch polarisation. I did consider two L-band 
waveguide transitions at one stage but thought that might be going too far 
:-)) I thought of the on-glass antenna used in the days of "The Brick" on 
mobile cellular, or amateur and commercial 2-way radios.


Thanks again for the ideas.

Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??



Alan,

Google for words like GPS re-radiator or GPS repeater. There are also 
units on eBay. If not to buy, at least to study examples.


The one I have is made by www.gpssource.com but it seems you could build 
one yourself. It's easy to test by looking at your indoor SV count and 
reception levels. With patch antennae you don't have to worry about RHCP 
issues, right?


/tvb

----- Original Message - 
From: "Alan Melia" 

To: "time-nuts measurement" 
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 9:59 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna??


Hi all an interesting problem you may have encountered, I want to use a 
GPS

frequency standard inside a building with no opening windows (opening
windows are known as air conditioning in the UK :-))  )
This is part of a two day amateur microwave conference so we should have 
the

expertise.

I intend to try and pass the signal through a a double glazed glass 
window
unit (hopefully not metalised) using a couple of patch antennas. The 
outer
GPS antenna is active so will need  a 5v supply via an inserter. Inner 
patch
active, outer patch passive to avoid problems of feedback. Main antenna 
can

be shielded from the "coupling" either physically or with a slab of
absorber.

Has anyone tried this? does it work?.any gotchas?

Thanks
Alan
G3NYK



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Re: [time-nuts] Low-pass Filter for 5 and 10 MHz

[Alan Melia]

Maybe a silly question but isnt the phase response of the filter important 
in this application ?? notches have fairly vicious phase shifts.


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Luciano Paramithiotti" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 5:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Low-pass Filter for 5 and 10 MHz



A simple low pass filter to cut second and third harmonics from a 5 or 10
MHZ signal.
See the paper:
http://www.timeok.it/files/5_and_10mhz_low_pass_notch_filter.pdf

Luciano Timeok
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Re: [time-nuts] Brooks Shera ASM release

[Alan Melia]

Bert is there any way we can add our names to some expression of thanks to 
his widow Karen and her helpers for their work and maybe leave a remembrance 
of his worldwide friends for his family?


Thanks for your efforts
Best wishes
Alan Melia  (G3NYK)
UK


- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Brooks Shera ASM release



The time-nuts server takes out all spaces so allow me to  resend the
acknowledgementsBert Kehren
  
  


At this time I like to thank Brooks for all  the work he did, his wife
Karen Stoll for deciding to release HEX and ASM and  Bob Leichner who
implemented the software commands. Brooks did not have the  chance to put 
final
touches in and complete his work, so Richard McCorkle  stepped in and made 
the

final changes. For almost a decade Brooks and Richard  collaborated on the
GPSDO, which benefits all of us. Also major recognition has  to go to 
Juerg
Koegel an other time nut that put our other projects on hold to  check 
every
iteration. Attached is part of a test that clearly shows the  performance 
of

the Alpha filter. Limited by attachment size contact me off list  for more
data.
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Re: [time-nuts] Brooks Shera ASM release

[Alan Melia]

Ok Bert I will stick my head above the parapet and repeat that 
query.Sometimes it is frustarting the get no response, but later get 
personal appreciation as you meet individuals. I didn't know the guy. I was 
trying with a friend to contact him long after the original article. We were 
disapointed but not unhappy. I certainly appreciate the help and expertise 
the Group provides..and it is nice to be able to say so, and salute the 
work Brooks did.


Thanks and Best Wishes
Alan Melia
(G3NYK)
- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Brooks Shera ASM release



Alan
You may suggest something to time nuts, looking at the response I doubt it
and ask my self why did three of us spend three weeks to fully check it 
out

and  fix some of the code. Will reflect future projects.
Bert Kehren


In a message dated 4/12/2013 8:39:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
alan.me...@btinternet.com writes:

Bert is  there any way we can add our names to some expression of thanks 
to

his  widow Karen and her helpers for their work and maybe leave a
remembrance
of his worldwide friends for his family?

Thanks for your  efforts
Best wishes
Alan Melia  (G3NYK)
UK


-  Original Message - 
From: 

To:  
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject:  [time-nuts] Brooks Shera ASM release



The time-nuts server  takes out all spaces so allow me to  resend the
 acknowledgementsBert Kehren
 
  


At this time I like to thank  Brooks for all  the work he did, his wife
Karen Stoll for  deciding to release HEX and ASM and  Bob Leichner who
implemented  the software commands. Brooks did not have the  chance to

put

 final
touches in and complete his work, so Richard McCorkle   stepped in and

made

the
final changes. For almost a decade  Brooks and Richard  collaborated on

the

GPSDO, which benefits all  of us. Also major recognition has  to go to
Juerg
Koegel  an other time nut that put our other projects on hold to  check
 every
iteration. Attached is part of a test that clearly shows  the

performance

of
the Alpha filter. Limited by  attachment size contact me off list  for

more

data.
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Re: [time-nuts] Brooks Shera ASM release

[Alan Melia]

Bert  I am grateful for the work you and friends have done.

Is there any way we can add our names to some expression of thanks from
members of the Group to his  widow Karen and her helpers for their work in
making the checked source code for the GPSDO available to us and maybe leave
a  token of remembrance of his worldwide friends, for his family?

Even if it is just a "me too" replying to this message.

Alan Melia (G3NYK)  Ipswich, UK

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Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Marco maybe you should run a web site with daily measurements and shame 
them into doing it properly ( your "traceable to NIST"  should raise some 
hackles !!) I took me four months to get a short term wander on 198kHz 
looked at a few years ago. I was cured when the synth finally failed 
completely ! The private contractor did not have at the time any way of 
measuring it off-air, despite taking the NPL money for running it. :-))


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Marco IK1ODO -2" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Italian Time Station on 10 MHz ?




For what I know they have an experimental license by the Telecom 
authority, and operate from Tuscany near Viareggio since two or three 
years. The license has been given on the basis that there are no more HF 
time and frequency signals operating in Europe.
When I knew about it I offered to donate a rubidium standard, to have it 
at least on the right frequency.
I had no answers... they continue to radiate a worthless off-frequency 
signal (IMHO). May be it is a case of "beaconitis" :-) (a disease that 
mandates to activate beacons).
On a similar base, I know of an attempt to restore and put in operation 
the old transmitter of IBF (5 MHz, "Istituto Nazionale di Elettrotecnica", 
now INRIM, the national standard keepers). That was a custom built 5 kW 
(carrier) Continental broadcasting TX. It has been found in the 
underground storage of INRIM, stripped of power and modulation 
transformers, and should be rebuilt to operate at only 1 kW carrier on the 
original 5 MHz frequency (Rb or GPS controlled!). The plans are to operate 
it from the original place on the hills near Torino, by remote control, as 
a museum and educative item. I offered my workshop to work on it, I hope 
that the project may go on to again hear "IBF, IBF, IBF, standard time and 
frequency signals from the National Electrotechnical Institute, Turin, 
Italy" from minutes 45 to 60 on 5 MHz ;-)


Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF


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Re: [time-nuts] OCXO Adjustment Question

[Alan Melia]

I use this method too, but I also find it little use trying to get the 
internal reference down to the last squeak in 10^11 on this kind of kit. It 
will not hold the setting for vey long and it takes ages to get the 
adjustment spot on. I get as close as I can easily.then allow the 
unknown to stabilise and do an estimate of the error and stick a label with 
thay value on the front until the next check is required  eg "2 in 10^9 high 
6thApr13" ..would not suit an avid "time-nut" but then the equipment is 
often barely "time-nut quality" :-))


Alan G3NYK

.
- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Riches" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO Adjustment Question



This is the method I use for my 5110. There are two 10 mhz outputs on the
osc - you can unplug one of the plugs and use a 10x probe there. My unit
will hold a couple  of parts in
10-8 for months.

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of J. L. Trantham
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 11:52 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO Adjustment Question

Fred,

What I do is to apply the GPSDO to the trigger input of a scope and the
output of the OCXO to be adjusted to the vertical input of the scope.  Set
the time base to something line 100 nSec or faster and watch the output of
the OCXO after it has warmed up for 30 minutes or so.

This is an option only if you have an output from the OCXO you can watch.
If no output, try a x10 probe attached to a 10 MHz connection from the 
OCXO
inside the monitor.  However, be careful that the probe does not 'load' 
the

OCXO and shift the frequency.

Adjust the OCXO for a stable display, not drifting left or right.

If the sine wave (or square wave) is moving to the left, the OCXO is high 
in
frequency.  If it is moving to the right, the OCXO is low in frequency. 
If
stable, it is matched to the GPSDO.  This is useful as long as the OCXO 
and

GPSDO are within a few Hz of each other.  The amount of time it takes for
the display to shift 1 cycle tells you how close the OCXO is to the GPSDO.

For instance, if it takes 10 seconds for the display to shift one cycle,
100,000,000 +/- 1 cycles went by in that 10 seconds or 1 part in 10E9 if I
have my math correct.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Frederick Bray
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 9:25 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] OCXO Adjustment Question

This might be slightly off-topic, but probably there is a time-nut who 
knows

the answer.

I am trying to adjust the 10 MHz OCXO in a Cushman 5110 service monitor. 
I
am using a frequency counter driven by a GPSDO.  Perhaps someone can 
educate

me about a couple problems I am encountering.

I tried making small incremental adjustments but after I am done, the
frequency drifts several Hz and then re-stabilizes at a new value.  When I
make further adjustments, I notice strange behavior. For example, if I
initially turned the adjustment clockwise to increase the frequency, it 
will

now decrease if I turn it clockwise and increase if I turn it
counter-clockwise.  On the next adjustment, it will reverse again.

Is there some correct procedure to adjust an OCXO?

Many thanks for any suggestions.

Fred Bray
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Re: [time-nuts] Ground loops in measurements?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Bob whats the problem at low freqs ?? I thought leakage was a function of 
the size of the "holes"v the wavelengthor are we into braid skin effect 
below 100kHz?? so as not to drag this OT a reference will suffice in answer.


Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Camp" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ground loops in measurements?



Hi

Coax is interesting stuff. The shielding is only good down to some lower
frequency limit. For anything practical that's going to be > 100 KHz.

At the frequencies you *should* use coax at, transformer coupling is the
easy way to break the ground loop. In this era of cell phones all over the
place, a transformer plus some sort of common mode choke is the standard
approach.

For things like 1 pps, you should be using some sort of balanced
transmission. Twisted pair, or better, shielded twisted pair. You can 
either

run into a balanced receiver IC and dc couple or into a transformer and do
something a bit fancier. With the IC you have a maximum voltage offset 
that
can be tolerated. With the transformer you have the cost / delay / 
possible

error in picking up the edges.

If your environment is noisy enough, you may have to transport your pps on
some sort of carrier. RF and optical both have their fans.

None of that is going to be easy. The alternative is to do what you would 
do
in a screen room. Single point ground, everything tied tightly together. 
Put
reasonable filtering on everything in and out. Tie the filters to the 
common
ground point. This also is not easy, but possibly not as hard as 
redesigning

the ins and outs of every box in sight. I have seen this approach used on
some *very* large systems.

A some what extreme approach (that I have seen used). Forget about all the
shielding and stuff. Buy a farm, put up a small metal shack in the middle 
of

a large field. Bring a hand cart with batteries. Run everything on a big
copper covered table.

Lots of ways to go.

Bob



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Attila Kinali
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:08 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Ground loops in measurements?

Moin,

A couple of weeks ago, there was a short discussion on "bad" connectors
and cables and the coupled in noise of those. Summarized it said that
measurements in the time-nuts scale are very sensitive to even the lowest
noise levels and coupled in signals.

But, all the measurements we do are done using some sort of coax which
have their shield connected to the case of the devices. As the invovled
devices in a measurement are also grounded over their power supply
this will lead to ground loops and thus a 50/60Hz noise. Also, because
loops are good magnetic antennas, a lot of other noise floating around
in the ether is coupled in (eg a nearby radio station).

How do you handle this kind of problems?

Attila Kinali

--
The people on 4chan are like brilliant psychologists
who also happen to be insane and gross.
-- unknown
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Re: [time-nuts] synchronizing a large number of weakly coupled oscillators

[Alan Melia]

Well I guess "no" because accuracy is the deviation from a known standard (I
think) Stability repeatability might be better but you need to consider what
the variables might be. Variations in thickness (basically frequency), cut
angle (temp coeficient and maybe others),  crystal purity (aging, ESR ?).
If you average many randomly selected  samples you might reduce the level of
variablilty of these aspects but would that make them "more accurate"? I
doubt that maybe more capable of staying within a given accuracy once
adjusted.

I still think the cost effective way is get one "good" one, the best you can
afford, characterise it and the make adjustments either calculated or by
disciplining. Even an ordinary crystal can be made to perform quite well by
adjusting it to track  it to something better. Many LF BC stations in Europe
are much better than a cheapy (computer grade) crystal and Droitwich and
Allouis are locked to a Rb standard and regularly measure against the
national standards. A few part in 10^11 costs a couple of hundred
dollars.This is 5 orders better than a cheapy crystal. My back of envelope
calculation suggest you might need about 100,000 oscillators to achieve this
level (ok tell me I'm wrong with the calculation and, as the exam script
says, "show you working" .the red wine was very nice I can take it
!! :-))   )

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Hal Murray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] synchronizing a large number of weakly coupled
oscillators


> > Presumably, a large population of cheap coupled oscillators could be
rather
> > accurate collectively.
>
> Why?
>
> There are 2 main sources of error in inexpensive crystal oscillators.
>
> The first is the initial manufacturing error.  I'd expect crystals made
from
> the same batch to have similar errors.  If you want a large population,
you
> are going to get most/many of them from similar batches.
>
> The other is temperature.  I'd expect that oscillators of a specific
design
> to have similar temperature dependencies.  Some vendors even include a
graph
> in their app-notes.
>
>
> It might be interesting to collect oscillators from different vendors and
> batches and see what sort of spread you end up with.
>
>
> -- 
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31

[Alan Melia]

Is it possible that mechanical (pendulum) clocks could couple not due to
energy transfer between the clocks but external  mechanical events such as
seismic events of a very low level ?? or even gravitational or lunar
gravitational effects.?? Maybe the same for water clocks ??

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Hoover" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31


> On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
> > It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every
> > other mechanical clock does.
> >
> > What would the mechanism be?
> >
>
> Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir 
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31

[Alan Melia]

Nice reference thanks for those Stanley...interesting, thought provoking
reading! Moving apart and possibly changining the relative positions of the
plane of the swing too to test the coupling.  There are ways of measuring
this if you have the time :-)) My thought was that even an uncoupled set
might move closer together if all subject to the same external "impulse"?
Alan
- Original Message - 
From: "Stanley Reynolds" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31


That would not explain the lessing of the effect as the clocks are moved
father from each other or arranged as sides of a triangle. Maybe gravity
between the pendulums or more likely vibrations.


http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Synchronization

http://www.siam.org/pdf/news/481.pdf

http://www.bhi.co.uk/hj/Coupled%20Pendulums%20Quadrature%20and%20Clocks%20by%20John%20Haine.pdf

http://www.ralph-abraham.org/articles/MS%2344.Resonance/ms44.pdf

Stanley


- Original Message 
From: Alan Melia 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 7:12:55 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31

Is it possible that mechanical (pendulum) clocks could couple not due to
energy transfer between the clocks but external mechanical events such as
seismic events of a very low level ?? or even gravitational or lunar
gravitational effects.?? Maybe the same for water clocks ??

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher Hoover" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 70, Issue 31


> On 5/12/2010 10:41 AM, Jim Lux wrote:
> > It never occurred to me that they might couple, although almost every
> > other mechanical clock does.
> >
> > What would the mechanism be?
> >
>
> Perhaps if all of them run off the same reservoir 
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucked out

[Alan Melia]

The ones they cant get to work are the most fun...:-))

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Bruce Lane" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 11:31 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucked out


> Fellow time-tickers,
>
> I lucked out on that NTS100i. No, it didn't have GPS (it was the IRIG
> version), but the fix was very simple.
>
> To recap: The Ebay seller had said he was unable to get it to
> synchronize to an "IRIG input" no matter how hard he tried.
>
> The solution: Turns out the IRIG version of the 100i (sub-model NIC-215)
> has a hardware jumper setting for different IRIG code formats. I
> discovered this when, on a whim, I fed the thing an IRIG-E stream -- and
> it locked!
>
> Some further experimentation located the jumper. I fed the thing a
> standard IRIG-B signal, then moved the jumper to different positions
> until I got a lock.
>
> One quick set of modified rack brackets later, the thing is doing its
> duty as a slave clock and NTP server, drawing its reference from my
> Odetics 425.
>
> I would call this $47 well-spent. ;-)
>
>
> Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
> Blue Feather Technologies (http://www.bluefeathertech.com)
> Assoc. member, AZA & AAZK for many moons.
> "Salvadore Dali's computer has surreal ports..."
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Apelco ...was Loran-C POSAID2 Software

[Alan Melia]

Hi John I have a manual dated 1989 for a later version Apelco ( DXL 6300)
The manual covers operation nicely, but the data for the Lessay chain is
incorrect. I can enter the GRI manually and the receiver locks nicely. I
have disassembled the eprom but cannot recognise the data areas to patch the
right rates in, and associate them with the lat and long of the statons. I
have tried the obvious paths but had no help the UK dealer ceased trading
and filed earlier in the year. Their engineer did try to help but could not
find information. Are you aware of any source of information on their
products and updates??

I am in the process of turning this into a 10MHz locked source, (a couple of
internal links) as it is not really too useful for Nav but it would be nice
to get it working properly. Particularly as we look like having one of the
last operational chains in Western Europe.

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "J. Forster" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C POSAID2 Software


> A definite maybe.
>
> In the late 1970s, Raytheon farmed out their small boat LORAN receivers to
> a New Hampshire company, Appelco. They made 8085 based LORAN receivers w/
> LED readout of time differences.
>
> Later, Appelco produced an upgraded version with a daughter board, also
> with an 8085, that took the data from the mother board and converted it to
> Lat/Long readout.  Obviously, that daughter board had the needed SW in its
> ROM. Mine certainly worked on the bench and gave consistent positions to
> within about 100 feet. The model number was LC? I'm not certain there
> were many produced, but it might be worth a look.
>
> BTW, Raytheon places a muli-million dollar order w/ Appelco, then pulled
> the plug on a technicality. Appelco went bust. I got the stuff at their
> bankrupcy auction.
>
> The down side is I cannot put my hands on it any time soon.
>
> FWIW,
>
> -John
>
> 
>
>
> > The Coast Guard Research and Development Center has developed "Coast
> > Guard POSAID2 ver 2.1a", a DOS-based program for converting LORAN-C
> > time differences (TDs) to latitude and longitude.
> > As the old link at the USCG site is apparently broken, I wonder if
someone
> > in this novel group still has such an interesting program.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Antonio
> > CT1TE
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes

[Alan Melia]

I have not been involved in this project but have had pcbs from eastern
sources supplied to RoHS. Some have come in with bare copper pads. I wonder
if the reason for this may be that their standard process was not "tinning",
but it was a a solder-flow stage, and they still have lead-tin solder baths.
So they avoid the one proces involving lead to produce an RoHS produce.
Other manufactures happily produce compliant tinned pcbs.

I found the use of a flux pen was adequate to ensure even lead-free manual
soldering even after the board had been in store for several months. Could
there maybe be a thin flux coating over the pads which is cause the
disquiet?

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Leigh L. Klotz, Jr WA5ZNU" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes


>   I tried water, then isopropyl, but what worked was a quick cleaning
> with a white eraser.
>
> Leigh/WA5ZNU
>
> On 08/06/2010 08:15 AM, Ed Palmer wrote:
> > You mean they are tinned?  I received my two boards a couple of days
> > ago.  I thought that they missed the tinning solution.  There's just
> > an occasional splash of bright tin here and there, particularly on the
> > back.  The rest looks like oxidized copper.  I haven't tried to solder
> > them yet.  Hope the rosin cuts through it.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > Stanley Reynolds wrote:
> >> Please remove Pictic boards from envelopes when you receive them.
> >> Received a report that the tinning on the bottom of the board was
> >> discolored perhaps due to some contamination in the envelope. Will
> >> wrap boards in plastic wrap in the future.
> >>
> >> Stanley
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes

[Alan Melia]

Pencil?? only us oldies know what that is... it is surprising the "lead"
pencil hasn't been banned under RoHS :-))
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Rooke" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes


They just need the simple application of the little pink eraser (I was
going to say rubber :) at the end of a pencil and a bit of elbow
grease to come up looking shiny and new.

The nice thing about the little pink erasers at the ends of pencils is
that they are just the right softness and have just enough abrasive to
clean oxide off easily and safely. They are also just the right size
to get them into many tight places and what's more, they come with a
long stick attached that you can wield them with and, when they are
all worn out, you can sharpen the other end of the stick and,
hey-presto!, you have a working writing and drawing instrument.
Recycling at it's best.

The pencil is your friend.

Steve

On 11/08/2010, Stanley Reynolds  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> From: Alan Melia 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Sent: Tue, August 10, 2010 6:01:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes
>
>
> Could
> there maybe be a thin flux coating over the pads which is cause the
> disquiet?
>
> Alan G3NYK
>
> 
>
> The boards had a uniform silver finish except for the green solder mask.
I'm
> sure I would have noticed any brown tint while packing them. The brown
tint
> must
> have occured in shipment. Sorry the choice of packing was my mistake and
> will be
> glad to make good anyone who needs replacment please email me off list.
>
> Stanley
>
> Stanley
> 
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>


-- 
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD
The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
- Einstein

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Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes

[Alan Melia]

Hi Jim ...being "ironic"...see the "smiley"
Alan
- Original Message - 
From: "jimlux" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Remove Pictic boards from envelopes


> Alan Melia wrote:
> > Pencil?? only us oldies know what that is... it is surprising the
"lead"
> > pencil hasn't been banned under RoHS :-))
> > Alan G3NYK
> >
> >
>
> I don't know that "lead" (as in the element) has ever been used in
> pencils.. I read a fascinating book on the history of the pencil a few
> years back.. it described how graphite (the mines of Cumberland were
> famous for graphite with good writing/drawing properties) was called
> plumbago (lead ore) because chemical analysis didn't really exist and
> the dense black substance seemed to resemble lead.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Simulation

[Alan Melia]

Surely all this is a case of an engineer being able to
read..specifications :-))
Manufactures specify to sell parts, most of the important parameter are
minimum values, and the range is as wide as it can be. If you want a
parameter "bracketed" then you must specify that when buying and pay the
premium or take the expense of testing incomming batches for sensitive
parameters. I used to give lectures to new engineers on reading
specifications .and what "Absolute maximum"  actually means. Clever
engineers also love using operations that rely on unspecified parameters.
For example using a stock switching diode as a spike quencher in a relay
driver. The usually work (but not always!) but are generally not specified
for that service.

Spice parameters are probably a few "typical" samples of even "the one I
happened to choose to measure"!!

I had a case of some +/-12v transistor logic which made it was into a big
telecoms project. the prototypes worked fine. By the time of bulk
manufacture the supplier of the the main transistor had had several cost
improvement stages. The result was the kit was unreliable. The problem was
that first the base junction were swung to -12v by the "0" logic state and
second from a transistor with a fairly simple round dot geometry emitter,
the device had been replaced by an interdigital high ft chip (it still met
the basic "greater than" specs.)

The interdigital device suffered severe loss of gain after a period of
avalanching at several millamps (I think it also suffered electromigration)
much more than the circular geometry transistors. I think this was due to
the increased emitter periphery length. It was solved by placing a simple
diode in the emitter leg, or a clamp on the base. The engineer had not read,
or not understood the meaning of  the Vebmax = 5v parameter, and his
prototype had worked. The production side were not very happy but eventually
were forced to junk thousands of 8inch square pcbs and do a re-layout. This
was in the days before computer simulation !! It might have helped!

Alan G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "jimlux" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Simulation


> Hal Murray wrote:
> >> Line got moved to other side of big ocean. Process got " tweaked" beta
is
> >> now 4x what it was.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that military grade parts have paperwork and processes
to
> > cover that case.  I expect it costs a lot.
> >
> > I think the same sort of service is available to high volume customers
at a
> > less than military price.
>
> just so..
>
> In the space business, we call it "traceability to sand"... you haven't
> lived til someone has a failed 2n, somwhere on some piece of
> critical hardware, and they issue a GIDEP alert, and then the mission
> assurance folks call you up and ask, "you don't by any chance have
> 2N's in your flight hardware do you?".. then there's the whole
> manufacturer and date code hunt.. Looking through the build
> documentation to find out. (or worse yet, if you had decided for some
> reason to use the prototype, which you didn't keep such good records on,
> but which you have photos of, and trying to read the date codes off the
> assembled item with a magnifying glass)
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Simulation

[Alan Melia]

Hi Bob yes that was a point raised by Prof Nat Sokal after I published some
data, or rather he pointed out it happened in RF amps. I guess if you take
an used PA transistor out of service and measure it you might find the base
emitter junction very leaky, but does  few mA of leakage matter so much in a
low impedance high drive power circuit.
Reliability asks "does it do the job it was designed for" not "is it as good
as new now"

Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Camp" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Simulation


> Hi
>
> Simulation might or might not have helped.
>
> 1) Was Vbe breakdown even included in the Spice model
> 2) If so did it ring bells (rare) or did it just clip without error (
common )
> 3) Would the same designer who didn't understand it in the first place
have seen it clipping at -5 and concluded "looks to be in spec at -5"
> 4) Would any of it be reviewed in light of the new transistor or was the
guy on another project by then
>
> My favorite in the absolute max Vbe category is the typical class C RF
amp. Look at the spec, check a few thousand working boards. Scratch head and
move on. Lots of reverse bias on the base and they run forever.
>
>  Bob


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[time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

[Alan Melia]

Hi I have just acquired a couple of GPS receiver pcbs, ex Telcoms equipment.
I know a lot of htese poards were discussed so time ago on the group. Does
anyone recognise what they are and could point me at some intrormations
please.
I am afraid the flash has washed the the pics out a bit but hopefully there
is enough detail to be recognised
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_top.JPG
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_lower.JPG
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_top.JPG
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_lower.JPG

The Trimble pcb is 2.6 by 1.25in., and the Synergy is 3.15 by 1.6 in.

Thanks
Alan
G3NYK


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

[Alan Melia]

Thanks Didier I will certainly let you know the results
Alan

- Original Message - 
From: "Didier Juges" 
To: "Time-Nuts" 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??


> Alan,
>
> You may want to compare to those:
> http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/GPS_Pics/
>
> If they do not match and you eventually find out what they are, please let
me know and I will add them to my collection.
>
> That goes for anybody who has identified, clear pictures of GPS receiver
boards, both sides preferably.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
>  
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Alan Melia" 
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:07:20
> To: Time-Nuts measurement
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
>
> Hi I have just acquired a couple of GPS receiver pcbs, ex Telcoms
equipment.
> I know a lot of htese poards were discussed so time ago on the group. Does
> anyone recognise what they are and could point me at some intrormations
> please.
> I am afraid the flash has washed the the pics out a bit but hopefully
there
> is enough detail to be recognised
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_top.JPG
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_lower.JPG
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_top.JPG
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_lower.JPG
>
> The Trimble pcb is 2.6 by 1.25in., and the Synergy is 3.15 by 1.6 in.
>
> Thanks
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

[Alan Melia]

Stanley, Thank you very much for the rapid response I will browse those URLs
and see if I can id the pcbs. Didier has advised he has a gallery so we
should make good progress.

Thanks
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Stanley Reynolds" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??


Synergy Motorola info here :
http://www.wa5rrn.com/GPS%20Other/Motorola%20M12/5vltb.pdf
UT+ Oncore R5xxxU Customer Specials

trimble resolution t
http://trl.trimble.com/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-183796/13441+Resolution+FA2.pdf

http://www.dpie.com/manuals/gps/trimble/ResolutionT_072408.pdf


Stanley


________
From: Alan Melia 
To: Time-Nuts measurement 
Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 6:07:20 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

Hi I have just acquired a couple of GPS receiver pcbs, ex Telcoms equipment.
I know a lot of htese poards were discussed so time ago on the group. Does
anyone recognise what they are and could point me at some intrormations
please.
I am afraid the flash has washed the the pics out a bit but hopefully there
is enough detail to be recognised
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_top.JPG
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_lower.JPG
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_top.JPG
http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_lower.JPG

The Trimble pcb is 2.6 by 1.25in., and the Synergy is 3.15 by 1.6 in.

Thanks
Alan
G3NYK


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

[Alan Melia]

Hi Didier, the Trimble is a Resolution T (3.3v)user manual at the URL
quoted by Stanley (Thanks again Stanley)
The Synergy is Motorola UT+ Oncore (5v)  and I am sure the manual for those
is around somewhere but not had time to chase that yet. Please feel free to
add these to your gallery...I may have some more when I get round to
taking some photos

Thanks and Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Didier Juges" 
To: "Time-Nuts" 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??


> Alan,
>
> You may want to compare to those:
> http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/GPS_Pics/
>
> If they do not match and you eventually find out what they are, please let
me know and I will add them to my collection.
>
> That goes for anybody who has identified, clear pictures of GPS receiver
boards, both sides preferably.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Didier KO4BB
>
>  
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Alan Melia" 
> Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:07:20
> To: Time-Nuts measurement
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
>
> Hi I have just acquired a couple of GPS receiver pcbs, ex Telcoms
equipment.
> I know a lot of htese poards were discussed so time ago on the group. Does
> anyone recognise what they are and could point me at some intrormations
> please.
> I am afraid the flash has washed the the pics out a bit but hopefully
there
> is enough detail to be recognised
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_top.JPG
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_lower.JPG
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_top.JPG
> http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_lower.JPG
>
> The Trimble pcb is 2.6 by 1.25in., and the Synergy is 3.15 by 1.6 in.
>
> Thanks
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

[Alan Melia]

Thanks Christian, I have that doc but although I think it is probably
relevant the outline of the pcb is totally different to the pcb I have
though more like a number of M12 Oncores I have. Thank you for your
interest, and help.
Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Christian Riesch" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??


> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Alan Melia
> > Sent: Thursday, 19. August 2010 12:44
> > To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency
> > measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
> >
> > Hi Didier, the Trimble is a Resolution T (3.3v)user manual at the
> > URL
> > quoted by Stanley (Thanks again Stanley)
> > The Synergy is Motorola UT+ Oncore (5v)  and I am sure the manual for
> > those
> > is around somewhere but not had time to chase that yet.
>
> Alan,
> on the gpsd website you can find the Motorola Oncore Documentation:
> http://gpsd.berlios.de/vendor-docs/motorola/
>
> Christian
>
>
> > Please feel free to
> > add these to your gallery...I may have some more when I get round
> > to
> > taking some photos
> >
> > Thanks and Best Wishes
> > Alan G3NYK
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Didier Juges" 
> > To: "Time-Nuts" 
> > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
> >
> >
> > > Alan,
> > >
> > > You may want to compare to those:
> > > http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/GPS_Pics/
> > >
> > > If they do not match and you eventually find out what they are,
> > please let
> > me know and I will add them to my collection.
> > >
> > > That goes for anybody who has identified, clear pictures of GPS
> > receiver
> > boards, both sides preferably.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > >
> > > Didier KO4BB
> > >
> > > 
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: "Alan Melia" 
> > > Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:07:20
> > > To: Time-Nuts measurement
> > > Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > > 
> > > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
> > >
> > > Hi I have just acquired a couple of GPS receiver pcbs, ex Telcoms
> > equipment.
> > > I know a lot of htese poards were discussed so time ago on the group.
> > Does
> > > anyone recognise what they are and could point me at some
> > intrormations
> > > please.
> > > I am afraid the flash has washed the the pics out a bit but hopefully
> > there
> > > is enough detail to be recognised
> > > http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_top.JPG
> > > http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Trimble_lower.JPG
> > > http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_top.JPG
> > > http://www.alan.melia.btinternet.co.uk/GPS/Synergy_lower.JPG
> > >
> > > The Trimble pcb is 2.6 by 1.25in., and the Synergy is 3.15 by 1.6 in.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Alan
> > > G3NYK
> > >
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??

[Alan Melia]

Thanks Art that describes it faithfully and explains the differences. I am
sure one of the guys will offer to host the information for the group.
Thanks and Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Art Sepin" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??


> Gentlemen,
>
> What you have is a Motorola SL Oncore navigation receiver, R6 series
> model number, with timing firmware installed. These 8 channel receivers,
> slightly smaller than the UT+ but larger than the M12x receivers,  were
> flashed with UT+ timing firmware and shipped to various telecom
> companies between 1999 and 2003.
>
> Unlike the Motorola VP, GT/GT+ and UT/UT+ receivers, the SL Oncore
> receivers are characterized by an "RF Dam" PC trace in place of the full
> metal shield covering the RF components. Most of the SL Oncore receivers
> we shipped were mounted in a full, shielded enclosure to operate in
> higher EMI environments encountered in telecom installations.
>
> An "SL Oncore Engineering Notes" document outlines the physical,
> electrical and environmental characteristics of this GPS receiver. A
> separate User's Guide for the SL was not published. The navigation
> firmware load is like the older GT+ and the timing firmware load is like
> the UT+. Therefore, the UT+ command/reply messages outlined in the
> GT+/UT+ User's Guide can serve as a reference to the timing messages
> available in the SL Oncore.
>
> Because of continuing requests, we will be updating our web site to
> include information on Motorola's legacy GPS receivers. In the interim,
> please let me know where I can e-mail the SL Engineering Notes so that
> anyone with interest can make reference to them. Engineering notes in
> electronic form are also available for the Basic Oncore, VP Oncore, GT+
> & UT+ Oncore and the M12 Oncore (but not M12+) - Thanks!
>
> Art Sepin
>
> Synergy Systems, LLC
> San Diego
> T (858) 566-0666
> F (858) 566-0768
> a...@synergy-gps.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Alan Melia
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 6:37 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
>
> Thanks Christian, I have that doc but although I think it is probably
> relevant the outline of the pcb is totally different to the pcb I have
> though more like a number of M12 Oncores I have. Thank you for your
> interest, and help.
> Best Wishes
> Alan G3NYK
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Christian Riesch" 
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> 
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
>
>
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
> On
> > > Behalf Of Alan Melia
> > > Sent: Thursday, 19. August 2010 12:44
> > > To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency
> > > measurement
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
> > >
> > > Hi Didier, the Trimble is a Resolution T (3.3v)user manual at
> the
> > > URL
> > > quoted by Stanley (Thanks again Stanley)
> > > The Synergy is Motorola UT+ Oncore (5v)  and I am sure the manual
> for
> > > those
> > > is around somewhere but not had time to chase that yet.
> >
> > Alan,
> > on the gpsd website you can find the Motorola Oncore Documentation:
> > http://gpsd.berlios.de/vendor-docs/motorola/
> >
> > Christian
> >
> >
> > > Please feel free to
> > > add these to your gallery...I may have some more when I get
> round
> > > to
> > > taking some photos
> > >
> > > Thanks and Best Wishes
> > > Alan G3NYK
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Didier Juges" 
> > > To: "Time-Nuts" 
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:43 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS pcb IDs??
> > >
> > >
> > > > Alan,
> > > >
> > > > You may want to compare to those:
> > > > http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/GPS_Pics/
> > > >
> > > > If they do not match and you eventually find out what they are,
> > > please let
> > > me know and I will add them to my collection.
> > > >
> > > > That goes for anybody who has identified, cle

Re: [time-nuts] Small quantity custom crystals

[Alan Melia]

Mark to my inexpert eye that doesnt look like a very good overtone
oscillator but I appreciate that it is slimmed down to keep the weight and
size down, I can see why it is touchy. There is nothing to make the
oscillator degenerate at the crystal fundamental. In fact it looks like a
Pierce with a tuned circuit in the anode. If it goes off at the overtone my
guess is that it by luck! But there are more clever people than me in this
Group who may be more useful to you.

Old fashioned crystals (lapped to frequency) used 5th OT up to just over
100MHz and the 7th and then 9th the blank was too fragile to go further. I
believe modern micro machining techniqes where a thicker ring of quartz
surrounds the resonator will allow a 5th overtone operation at 200MHz but
you still have to make sure it doesnt go off at the fundamental or the 3rd
.it may still transmit, but it will be off-channel and lower in power.
Overtones are not harmonics.in radio anyway.

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sims" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 7:57 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Small quantity custom crystals



I need to build some small tracking transmitters (using a circuit similar to
http://www.jbgizmo.com/page4.html

This circuit uses a fifth overtone crystal to get an output in the 216 to
220 MHz range. The circuit is rather finicky about the crystal and
transistor... most don't work.

Smaller and more rugged crystals are preferred. Does anybody know of a place
that can make 1 off crystals in this range for a reasonable price. Many of
usual suspects don't seem to be able to make crystals in that range.


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Re: [time-nuts] Small quantity custom crystals

[Alan Melia]

Hi Mark looking at the M15m article where the design seems to stem from
suggests that the oscillator is NOT opertaing on 150 or 200 MHz but in fact
40 to 50 Mhz with a cheap crystal and the LC collector circuit is selecting
the the 3rd or 5th harmonic (not overtone a common mis-apprehension) The
pulsing is just an RC in the base bias where the high value of R wont allow
the circuit to oscillate hence it takes no current until the C is charged
up.

My thought is a 200MHz overtone crystal could cost you $60, whereas a 50MHz
3rd OT will probably cost $20 and a cheap computer grade $2. The big
difficulty will be getting cheap crystals on the right or anyway different
enough frequencies. Crystals removed in rechannelling older 2-way radios may
be a better source. I have hunders of these.unfortunately I am in the
UK.

Alan G3NYK



- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sims" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:18 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Small quantity custom crystals



This type of circuit is NOT a free running oscillator. It is a type of
blocking oscillator that generates a short, high powered ping every second
or two. It is designed to be able to extract every bit of power out of the
battery. It can run for over a month off of a couple of button cells, yet
generate a signal detectable over a mile away while it is laying flat on the
ground. The allowable frequency bands are at 216, 217, and 219 Mhz. Each
unit must be on its own freq, hence the need for one-off custom crystals.

Yes, it is a weird circuit and depends upon all sorts of unspecified
parameters. The components have to be hand selected and matched. This is the
price one has to pay for this sort of operation.

---
-Build a free running Colpitts oscillator and get it tuned to the frequency
you want.  Then, insert the crystal in series with theemitter.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842

[Alan Melia]

Dick did you ever try an unscreened loop ?? they should be just as good if
not better at 60kHz.
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Dick Moore" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842


> I used to have one of these marvelous receivers and sold it. I still have
the WWVB/60kHz shielded loop antenna that I made for it and although it is
big, at about 30" x 30" x 2" or so, I believe it will ship FedEx or UPS OK.
It's free to anyone who'll pay the shipping. It's made out of copper pipe
and works quite well, and is tuned for the 5842 at 60kHz.
>
> Best,
> Dick Moore
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:50 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
>
>
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:34:57 -0600
> > From: ziggy9 
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec
> > DY-5842 VLF receiver?
> > To: 
> > Message-ID: <990bd60b3c5d084910c10c8855912...@pumpkinbrook.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> >
> > Fellow time-nuts:
> > I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in
> > conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency
> > comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your
> > primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5
crystals
> > in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL,
WWVB).
> > It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something
> > like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it here.
> >
> > So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be
> > interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about this
> > thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell, somewhat
> > rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a
> > curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in it
> > rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to anyone
> > that wants them.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Paul Davis - K9MR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:42:16 -0400
> > From: "jmfranke" 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage
> > HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver?
> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> > 
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > I am very interested.  Do you have any images?
> >
> > John  Franke WA4WDL
> > Portsmouth, VA 23703
> >
> > --
> > From: "ziggy9" 
> > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:34 PM
> > To: 
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec
> > DY-5842 VLF receiver?
> >
> >>
> >> Fellow time-nuts:
> >> I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in
> >> conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency
> >> comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your
> >> primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5
> >> crystals
> >> in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL,
WWVB).
> >> It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in something
> >> like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it
here.
> >>
> >> So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be
> >> interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about
this
> >> thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell,
somewhat
> >> rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a
> >> curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in
it
> >> rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to
anyone
> >> that wants them.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Paul Davis - K9MR
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:50:17 -0500
> > From: Brian Kirby 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage
> > HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver?
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > 
> > Message-ID: <4ca665a9.1090...@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > You might consider contacting Dr. Ken Kuhn  --  kennathak...@gmail.com
> >
> > check his HP museum at http://www.kennethkuhn.com/hpmuseum/
> >
> > Brian Kirby KD4FM
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/1/2010 5:34 PM, ziggy9 wrote:
> >>
> >> Fellow time-nuts:
> >> I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in
> >> conjunction with an external time interval counter

Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna

[Alan Melia]

Thanks Dick, Ok with interference that close it would help. Shielding doesnt
always provide much at these frequencies and can reduce the Q of the loop.

Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Dick Moore" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna


> Alan, I did try a real half-a$$ed pile of wire and a tuning cap. My shop
has fluorescent lights and I got a lot of noise. Once I built the shielded
loop and got it lined up with east and a little south (I'm in Washington
State), WWVB came in gang-busters. This was before I built a GPSDO or two
and then got a TBolt.
>
> The shielded loop has just been sitting for years.
>
> Dick
>
>
> On Oct 2, 2010, at 3:42 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 23:40:52 +0100
> > From: "Alan Melia" 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842
> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> > 
> > Message-ID: <015501cb6283$10071ad0$4001a...@lark>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Dick did you ever try an unscreened loop ?? they should be just as good
if
> > not better at 60kHz.
> > Alan G3NYK
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Dick Moore" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 11:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Dymek DY-5842
> >
> >
> >> I used to have one of these marvelous receivers and sold it. I still
have
> > the WWVB/60kHz shielded loop antenna that I made for it and although it
is
> > big, at about 30" x 30" x 2" or so, I believe it will ship FedEx or UPS
OK.
> > It's free to anyone who'll pay the shipping. It's made out of copper
pipe
> > and works quite well, and is tuned for the 5842 at 60kHz.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Dick Moore
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 1, 2010, at 3:50 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Message: 5
> >>> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:34:57 -0600
> >>> From: ziggy9 
> >>> Subject: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage HP/Dymec
> >>> DY-5842 VLF receiver?
> >>> To: 
> >>> Message-ID: <990bd60b3c5d084910c10c8855912...@pumpkinbrook.com>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Fellow time-nuts:
> >>> I've got a circa 1964 DY-5842 VLF receiver. This is (was) operated in
> >>> conjunction with an external time interval counter to make a frequency
> >>> comparison. So you would select WWVL for example, and use that as your
> >>> primary standard for comparison to your local standard. It's got 5
> > crystals
> >>> in it: 16, 18, 19.8, 20, and 60 kHz (listed as GBR, NBA, NPM, WWVL,
> > WWVB).
> >>> It works and I have the manual. The thing is, the interest in
something
> >>> like this is bound to be a bit narrow, so I thought I'd mention it
here.
> >>>
> >>> So if there are any collectors, equipment museums, etc. that might be
> >>> interested in this, please let me know. I'm a bit sentimental about
this
> >>> thing, it's sort of a bit of history, and from what I can tell,
somewhat
> >>> rare (doesnt make it worth anything though :). Since it's a bit of a
> >>> curiosity, I'd like to pass it to someone that might be interested in
it
> >>> rather than just tossing it. I can always provide more details to
anyone
> >>> that wants them.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Paul Davis - K9MR
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Message: 6
> >>> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:42:16 -0400
> >>> From: "jmfranke" 
> >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Possibly OT - Any interest in a vintage
> >>> HP/Dymec DY-5842 VLF receiver?
> >>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> >>> 
> >>> Message-ID: 
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> >>> reply-type=original
> >>>
> >>> I am very interested.  Do you have any images?
> >>>
> >>> John  Franke WA4WDL
> >>> Portsmouth, VA 23703
> >>>
> >>> --
&g

Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna

[Alan Melia]

Yes Magnus, a break to avoid the shorted turn effect
Alan

- Original Message - 
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna


> On 10/03/2010 11:03 AM, Alan Melia wrote:
> > Thanks Dick, Ok with interference that close it would help. Shielding
doesnt
> > always provide much at these frequencies and can reduce the Q of the
loop.
>
> I would be careful not to close the shield into a loop, so it only acts
> on E-field and not H-field. I'd assume this goes for this loop as well,
> right?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna

[Alan Melia]

The loop will be tuned (!) but hopefully to a freqency much above 60kHz by
the inter-turn and turn to screen capacitance. Also hopefully this will be a
low Q resonance and the phase frequency response at 60kHz should then be
stable with ambient conditions. Interestingly a lot of the modern LF and VLF
Off-air Standards use ferrite rod antennas and there are known problems with
those, Quartzlock advise a air loop for critical requirements.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Arthur Dent" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:09 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] 60kHz Loop antenna


> John-…”HP's loop for the 117A is not tuned, as I rember, but it
> is followed with a narrow band amp.“
>
> Both the nuvistor and FET versions of the loop show capacitors across the
loop winding to tune it.
> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10509a/
>
> -Arthur
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Radio based time stations

[Alan Melia]

Hi Poul-HenningOh yes we did ! but the closed a long time ago.
MSF was on 2.5, 5 and 10 Mc/s:-))  (It only hertz when I laugh)
OMA similar
HBG
there may have been others.
I seem to remember the HF stations took it in turns to transmit
Alan G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" 
To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Radio based time stations


> "Lee Reynolds" writes:
>
> >Overall, we probably
> >now have a quarter to a third of the SW time stations compared to those
that
> >that existed 20 years ago.
>
> I think too many radio-controlled alarmclocks have been sold for
> the remaning big VLF stations to disappear any time soon...
>
> Shortwave ?  I can live without those, as far as I know we never
> really had any here in europe...
>
> Poul-Henning
>
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
incompetence.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver

[Alan Melia]

Hi Magnus its was a pity they didn't manage to communicate with some of my
office collegues so as to to confirm the "hand" of the polarisation they
were using though :-)) Goodhilly changed the feed for the other polarisation
on the day of the first test, and it was a bit of a TV disaster. Lanion had
a horn so had the same sytem. The horns are long gone except for the
microwave background experiment but the Goonhilly Down dish called "Arthur"
after a certain medieval king who spent his time whopping Danes :-)) I dont
think the dish still carries traffic but it is capable, fully steerables are
not needed for telecoms now. Arthur is now a "historic monument" so we do
get some things right !!

Alan G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 KHz Receiver


> On 10/07/10 17:09, J. Forster wrote:
> > Telstar was a BIG DEAL! There was even a pop song about it.
>
> Reading the Bell labs books on the Telstar project is very nice. Nice
> fold-outs on control-panels etc.
>
> They did spent a lot of time to engineer the whole thing. Their antenna
> setups that would track the high-dynamic movement due to the low orbit.
>
> Amplifiers was rubin-maser cooled with liquid helium... and stuff like
that.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] RAPCO 1804 GPS Frequency Standard

[Alan Melia]

It'll be your fault !! :-))
I was wondering about these but didnt know what they were like.I have a
space in the rack.it 'ud better be good!!

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 10:13 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] RAPCO 1804 GPS Frequency Standard


> Hi All
>
> Anybody fancy a Rapco 1804 GPS frequency standard for 70 GBP plus
postage?
>
> Ebay item 320601939698 has eight available as a buy it now and available
> for worldwide shipping from the UK.
>
> These are 5MHz units using an HCD-66-SC ovened oscillator and mains
powered
>  in a 1U rack mount case.
>
> As far as I can tell the GPS module is a Trimble SV6 although I've  also
> got one with what looks to be a retrofitted SV8 that does  report 8
satellites
> via the Rapco serial port.
>
> Usual disclaimer applies, I have no vested interest whatsoever other  than
> as a previously happy customer of this seller but am happy to  recommend
> both him and these units.
>
> regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

[Alan Melia]

Hi I do not follow al the techniques in detail but a lot of work has been
done on soundcard sampling rates in the low frequency amateur radio groups
where GPS locking is used to extract very weak signals from the noise in
very narrow band widths. It has been found that some of the supposed
standard samping rates are not exact divisors of the clock crystal and are
achieved by a bodge in teh software but are regarded as "close enough" for
some audio work The 11kHz rate is a particularly odd one but many of the
8kHz rates are quite a way off. There are several ways of locking the
spectrogram software to a harmonic of the 1pps.

If there is interest I may be able to dig out some URLs  a quick check didnt
yield what I wanted to show.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "jimlux" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?


> Ulrich Bangert wrote:
> > Gents,
> >
> > I have already pointed to this paper
> > http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report/42-121/121G.pdf for a number
of
> > times but appearantly it is still too less known or too less understood.
Its
> > appendix explains completely the necessary signal processing for
frequency
> > and phase extraction from a sampled sine using ALL samples. While the
paper
> > itself addresses this algo to radio frequencies it naturally works as
well
> > at audio frequencies.
>
>
> And, in any case, the RSA described in the paper is sampling an audio
> frequency beat note, so it's exactly applicable to what is contemplated
> here.
>
> As Ulrich comments in the rest of his post, the math is straightforward,
> the performance is all in the hardware execution.  When measuring a
> gnat's eyelash, you need to worry about the bumps on the eyelash.
>
> Sound cards in PCs have all sorts of idiosyncracies.  Consider them as a
> 10 bit/ 60dB sort of device:  For instance, the sampling clock may be
> fairly stable, but it has interference from the processor clock on it,
> so you'll see spurs from that.  There's leakage between channels.  The
> low frequency response isn't very wonderful. etc.
>
> The folks doing ham software defined radios (in particular with the
> Flex-Radio boxes of the SDR1000 vintage a few years ago) spent a lot of
> time trying out different external sound interfaces: the performance of
> the interface directly affects the RF performance in the Flex direct
> conversion scheme.  Unfortunately, a lot of the mail reflector archives
> aren't on-line, but there was a lot of empirical data that some
> dedicated people collected.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Does TIME-NUTS LIST-SERV allow CLASSIFIED "For-Sale" private advertisment?

[Alan Melia]

You must also bear in mind that this a world-wide list. personally I would
not be interested in sales of test equipment within the US, and I would not
look here for equipment I might like to own. (Others in the Europe might)
However, I would not object to a note that some gear is avilable and a
detailed description or list can be viewed at... (maybe the trader
site?) Many may seek to move unwanted or superceded gear to like minded
collegues rather than be ripped off by a dealer on an auction site. This is
to be encouraged in some part, but remember that I, and many others are
members to share in the astonishing technical expertise available to all in
the group. I remember that like OTs and discussions that go cosmic I always
have the delete key. :-))

Thanks for a great communitylong may it flourish!

Alan G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Does TIME-NUTS LIST-SERV allow CLASSIFIED
"For-Sale" private advertisment?


> On 10/18/2010 06:31 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
> > We've never had a hard-and-fast rule, but in general the community seems
> > OK with (a) non-dealers making occasional postings about T&F related
> > items (i.e., excess or "housecleaning" items), and (b) commercial
> > sellers making *very* occasional postings about unusual items.
>
> I think John agrees with me that occasional information on availability
> of DIY-related PCBs/kits (such as the PICTIC) created by fellow
> time-nuts is also OK. So is the case when people has come over a bunch
> of components which is hard to get.
>
> > Periodic ads, or general "we have the following items" ads, would not be
> > appropriate.
> >
> > At bottom, this is intended to be a technical discussion forum, and not
> > a swap shop.
>
> We could have a separate time-nuts classified side-kick list, it would
> be much easier to direct other stuff there to keep clean. Just a thought.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please

[Alan Melia]

Sampling scopes will display repetative signals above the sampling frequency
if the repetition rate of the signals and sampling rate are not
relatedthere were GHz bandwidth scopes in the 60s using this method. Not
a lot of good on single shot though. PC scopes are quite good for repetative
slow signal and single shot within their sampling rate. i have a Pico Tech
50Ms/s which works well with a simple old laptop.it requires a parallel
port so was quite cheap on that auction site we love to hate.

It is a case with ALL measuring equipment you been to know HOW it works to
interpret what it telling you.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "William H. Fite" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please


> Robert said;
> Bitscope headlines "100MHz analog bandwidth" but you have to big a bit
> deeper to find "up to 40Ms/s". Seems like they are wasting most of the
> bandwidth if the have an anti-alising filter. This is really only usable
to
> 20MHz single shot.
>
> Yes, I noticed that, too.  Almost sounds like deceptive advertising.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Robert Atkinson
wrote:
>
> > Hi Bill,
> > It depends what you need/want. There are issues with the PC based
'scopes.
> > Most obvious to the user is response time. It can be fustrating to have
the
> > screen change a second after the event happened! Other issues are sample
> > rate and input voltage range. The Bitscope headlines "100MHz analog
> > bandwidth" but you have to big a bit deeper to find "up to 40Ms/s".
Seems
> > like they are wasting most of the bandwidth if the have an anti-alising
> > filter. This is really only usable to 20MHz single shot.
> >  I could not find the input sensitivity and ranges. I looked at the
> > BitScope a while ago and decided it was overpriced at $600. I was lucky
to
> > find an HP 54645D for the same money. Unless you need the PC
connnectivty
> > and simple logic analyser (the 54645D gives both ;-), I'd look at a
> > conventional 'scope. As you are considering a PC 'scope, have a look at
the
> > Pico Technolgy range,
> > http://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope-specifications.html Their bandwith
/
> > sample rates make more sense. I've used their products and they work
very
> > well.
> >
> > Robert G8RPI.
> >
> > --- On Sun, 31/10/10, William H. Fite  wrote:
> >
> > From: William H. Fite 
> > Subject: [time-nuts] A little quick advice, please
> > To: "PC Oscilloscope" 
> > Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 13:35
> >
> > 'morning, folks,
> >
> > I was just on a verge of purchasing a Tek TDS1012 scope when a friend
> > suggested that I could save a chunk of change by buying a BitScope.
> > Although
> > I've been aware of PC scopes, I never really looked into them.  The
specs
> > look pretty good (the fact that I was looking at an entry-level Tek will
> > give you some idea of my needs).
> >
> > Anyone have any experience with BitScope or other of the low-end PC
scopes?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in small cases

[ALAN MELIA]

Hi Atilla, I dont have book availabe but AT cut is a thickness-shear vibration 
mode so plate area may not be an issue ?? Just harder to make :-))
Alan

--- On Tue, 13/3/12, Attila Kinali  wrote:

> From: Attila Kinali 
> Subject: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in small cases
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Tuesday, 13 March, 2012, 17:26
> Hi,
> 
> I have been reading up on quartz crystal oscillators in the
> past few
> weeks. Something that i couldn't figure out until now is
> what kind of
> configuration the small crystals use.
> 
> If you read all those documents on quartz, they all show the
> oscillator
> "core" as a round plate, approximately 1.4cm diameter, one
> side, maybe
> both sides rounded (like [1]). That's all nice and good, but
> those
> crystalls fit only into the large cases. Even a HC-49/US has
> not enough
> space for such a plate. And the SMD cases are even worse.
> 
> Unfortunately, my google skills failed me on finding any
> information
> on how the configuration of the crystal in those small cases
> look like
> and what oscillation modes they use.
> 
> Would someone be so kind and give me a few pointers on
> this?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
>            
> Attila Kinali
> 
> [1] http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:InsideQuartzCrystal.jpg
> 
> 
> -- 
> The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until
> you've saved
> up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and
> then you dump
> them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled
> beneath the heap
>         -- Tirin, The
> Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in small cases

[ALAN MELIA]

hi Magnus the only "bar" resonators I have actually seen were NT flexural bar. 
Modern cuts probably include all sorts of resonator modesbut are these AT 
cuts?

Alan

--- On Tue, 13/3/12, Magnus Danielson  wrote:

> From: Magnus Danielson 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in small cases
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Tuesday, 13 March, 2012, 17:59
> On 03/13/2012 06:35 PM, ALAN MELIA
> wrote:
> > Hi Atilla, I dont have book availabe but AT cut is a
> thickness-shear vibration mode so plate area may not be an
> issue ?? Just harder to make :-))
> 
> One of the AT cut oscillators I use has a crystal bar rather
> than a circular plate. Being mass-produced in bulk, etched
> etc. It is just a different process.
> 
> I'm sure the crystal oscillator folks here could point to
> some good sources on that.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in small cases

[ALAN MELIA]

Hi Bob thanks for that. In replying to Atilla's query I did hope to trigger 
some responses that would update my knowedge as well. My experience of 
resonators is some 40 years old. Do you know if the older more massive blanks 
have a higher "Q" than these small bar ATs. All the high quality resonators I 
have come across have been relatively massive.

Alan

--- On Tue, 13/3/12, Bob Camp  wrote:

> From: Bob Camp 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in small cases
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 
> 
> Date: Tuesday, 13 March, 2012, 21:10
> Hi
> 
> The typical AT low cost crystal is an AT strip. It's
> rectangular rather than
> circular. It still resonates across the thickness dimension,
> just as the
> circular part does. 
> 
> A modern 32 KHz crystal is set up as a tuning fork. 
> The resonance happens
> each "arm" along it's length. Long ago 32 KHz crystals were
> made as strips
> that resonated along the length of the strip. A part that
> resonates along
> it's length is often called a bar in the literature.
> 
> Bob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
> On
> Behalf Of ALAN MELIA
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:47 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration in
> small cases
> 
> hi Magnus the only "bar" resonators I have actually seen
> were NT flexural
> bar. Modern cuts probably include all sorts of resonator
> modesbut are
> these AT cuts?
> 
> Alan
> 
> --- On Tue, 13/3/12, Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Magnus Danielson 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] quartz crystal configuration
> in small cases
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Date: Tuesday, 13 March, 2012, 17:59
> > On 03/13/2012 06:35 PM, ALAN MELIA
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Atilla, I dont have book availabe but AT cut is
> a
> > thickness-shear vibration mode so plate area may not be
> an
> > issue ?? Just harder to make :-))
> > 
> > One of the AT cut oscillators I use has a crystal bar
> rather
> > than a circular plate. Being mass-produced in bulk,
> etched
> > etc. It is just a different process.
> > 
> > I'm sure the crystal oscillator folks here could point
> to
> > some good sources on that.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> > 
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Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp unit ?

[ALAN MELIA]

Si juctions are formed at temps of 1000C or more. Thermal failure is more 
likely to be due to alloying of metal contact areas. I used to lifetest 
transistors up to 360C for 20 hours with power applied!! and anything up to 6 
months at 200C. You cant get those temps with plastic encalsulations though 
glass (double dummet) diodes will stand 300C easily

Alan
G3NYK


--- On Mon, 26/3/12, David C. Partridge  wrote:

> From: David C. Partridge 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp unit ?
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 
> 
> Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 14:02
> An Si junction can tolerate pretty
> high temperatures for a short while, or even a long while -
> Bob Pease reported having had a component sat on the hot end
> of a soldering iron for about 24 hours and still working
> afterwards ...  
> 
> I've never seen a description of how they make those glass
> cased parts - I guess speed is important.
> 
> Dave
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
> [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
> On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb
> Sent: 26 March 2012 13:50
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp
> unit ?
> 
>   how are glass cased
>    diodes made?  Wouldn't the
> temperatures needed to form the glass and
>    seal it to the leads destroy the silicon
> junction being put inside?
>    Peter
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp unit ?

[ALAN MELIA]

I dont think so, pure quartz melts at, I think, 1440C but glasses (like 
lead-glass) melt at much lower temperatures 500 to 600C. Remember the chemical 
glass-blowing skill of the technicians. 

The glass mix has to be formulated to match the expansion rate of the lead 
seals. A iron alloy with a small expansion coeff. whose name I dont recall was 
used for the leads. Glasses soften well below melting temperature (I remember 
"sucked in" 807 and 6146 tubes that had dissipated a few watts to many) Then 
the softened glass is "rolled" onto the lead. If you look carefully at some 
glass wire-ended diodes you will see a slight waist where this happened. The 
seal and adhesion is a thin metal/oxide/glass interface. Soldering temps rarely 
cause trouble but bending the lead wire close to the glass should be avoided. I 
used an oxy-hydrogen flame micro-welder for making connections for high temp 
life tests, so the wires got quite hot, but not close to the metal-glass seal. 
I only had peripheral knowledge of glass technology but most of the technology 
was developed in the lamp and valve (tube ) industries. I guess there are great 
references in the web now :-))

Alan G3NYK

--- On Mon, 26/3/12, Chuck Harris  wrote:

> From: Chuck Harris 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Distribution amp - Use a video amp unit ?
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Date: Monday, 26 March, 2012, 15:10
> Yes, but
> 
> The glass used to make the body of the diode melts at
> something like 1500C!
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 
> ALAN MELIA wrote:
> > Si juctions are formed at temps of 1000C or more.
> Thermal failure is more likely
> > to be due to alloying of metal contact areas. I used to
> lifetest transistors up to
> > 360C for 20 hours with power applied!! and anything up
> to 6 months at 200C. You
> > cant get those temps with plastic encalsulations though
> glass (double dummet)
> > diodes will stand 300C easily
> >
> > Alan G3NYK
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] LORAN modulation scheme???? Kind of interesting

[ALAN MELIA]

Hi Paul it may be nothing to do with it but there are several places where 
Loran-C is still active. and the Lessay chain is running eLoran although one 
slave is down at the moment, he master and other two slaves are I believe still 
active. It is some way from you but when it is otherwise quiet..is it 
possible? There area number of DSP (sound card) solutions for identifying 
stations/chains. Marcus Vester, and Peter Martinez are two names that come to 
mind. 

Alan

--- On Tue, 27/3/12, paul swed  wrote:

> From: paul swed 
> Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN modulation scheme Kind of interesting
> To: "Time-nuts" , "paul swed" 
> Date: Tuesday, 27 March, 2012, 21:23
> Perhaps its just noise. But LORAN
> went off the air. In the quite I hear
> some low level junk.
> Only I am beginning to think its not low level junk.
> 
> It sounds like a GRI thats been spread and perhaps this is
> what a GRI
> sounds like when you do lots of phase reversals.
> My O my time to fire up the old austron 2000 gate a scope
> and see if this
> junk is synchronized.
> Have to believe I can do the same thing on the SRS FS700.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> Boston
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Re: [time-nuts] pc loran c program

[ALAN MELIA]

Peter Martinez G3PLX wrote some software which I think used GPS 1pps sync to 
receive Canadian eastern stations in the UK and monitor variations in time of 
arrival.I dont know that it produces "IDs" I belive that was derived from 
the GRIs.I think )Peter named the technique "clicklock" and several others 
added embellishments. I used one of these for measuring Loran-C sidebands as 
heard way up on 136kHz (an amateur radio band in Europe and the rest of the 
World) Peter lost interest in this and moved on, but copies may still be 
floating around o the web.

Markus Vester DF6NM runs a site that observes and records Loran transmissions 
worldwide. I dont have the URL in this PC but a google of his name and call + 
loran should yield something. I believe Markus's program is feely available for 
amateur use.

Alan
G3NYK
 

--- On Wed, 28/3/12, Stan, W1LE  wrote:

> From: Stan, W1LE 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] pc loran c program
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 28 March, 2012, 15:45
> 
> A google search shows:
> 
> http://www.coaa.co.uk/ndbfinder.htm
> 
> I will try it later this evening when I get back home...
> 
> Stan, W1LE   Cape Cod
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/28/2012 8:53 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > Never heard of one.
> > Generally its a hardware decode
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Bill Richeswrote:
> >
> >> Are there any pc programs that can decode Loran C
> id's?
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Bill, WA2DVU
> >> Cape May, NJH
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] pc loran c program

[ALAN MELIA]

Hi Paul yes it can be a bit of a fiddleone of the Brit Columbia stations 
maybe VE7SL did a friendly "front end" for it and one of Murray Greenman's 
collegues produced another for phase tracking VLF stations amongst other 
application, I think.

Alan

--- On Wed, 28/3/12, paul swed  wrote:

> From: paul swed 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] pc loran c program
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> 
> Date: Wednesday, 28 March, 2012, 16:59
> Boy I never really had clicloc ever
> working correctly and set it aside.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:45 AM, ALAN MELIA wrote:
> 
> > Peter Martinez G3PLX wrote some software which I think
> used GPS 1pps sync
> > to receive Canadian eastern stations in the UK and
> monitor variations in
> > time of arrival.I dont know that it produces "IDs"
> I belive that was
> > derived from the GRIs.I think )Peter named the
> technique "clicklock"
> > and several others added embellishments. I used one of
> these for measuring
> > Loran-C sidebands as heard way up on 136kHz (an amateur
> radio band in
> > Europe and the rest of the World) Peter lost interest
> in this and moved on,
> > but copies may still be floating around o the web.
> >
> > Markus Vester DF6NM runs a site that observes and
> records Loran
> > transmissions worldwide. I dont have the URL in this PC
> but a google of his
> > name and call + loran should yield something. I believe
> Markus's program is
> > feely available for amateur use.
> >
> > Alan
> > G3NYK
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 28/3/12, Stan, W1LE 
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Stan, W1LE 
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] pc loran c program
> > > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement" <
> > time-nuts@febo.com>
> > > Date: Wednesday, 28 March, 2012, 15:45
> > >
> > > A google search shows:
> > >
> > > http://www.coaa.co.uk/ndbfinder.htm
> > >
> > > I will try it later this evening when I get back
> home...
> > >
> > > Stan, W1LE   Cape Cod
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/28/2012 8:53 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > > > Never heard of one.
> > > > Generally its a hardware decode
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Bill
> Riches > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Are there any pc programs that can decode
> Loran C
> > > id's?
> > > >>
> > > >> 73,
> > > >>
> > > >> Bill, WA2DVU
> > > >> Cape May, NJH
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> >
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> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Re-radiating a GPS signal...??

[Alan Melia]

If the isolation is good and the "clear view" signal is reasonably strong,
the passive system works well in hangers, metalclad warehouses, ferry lorry
decks.
The passive system in the UK used to be refered to as the "Matlock
Repeater".

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Baker" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 2:05 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Re-radiating a GPS signal...??


> Time-nutters--
>
> So--  How do GPS signal re-radiators work?
>
> How do you place a GPS antenna on top of a building,
> pick up the signal with an LNA, amplify it to re-transmit
> on an inside antenna without the amplified re-transmitted
> signal getting back into the roof-top receiving antenna?
>
> I can see circumstances where a huge metal building
> (aircraft hangar?) might provide enough isolation to
> prevent problems, but in many cases I wonder about it...
> 
>
> As an aside note-- I recall seeing, many years ago, a totally
> passive TV signal repeater on top of a tall hill in mountainous
> territory relaying a TV station signal to some homes in a valley
> just below.  The passive repeater consisted of an array of
> high-gain UHF yagis pointing to the 40 mile distant TV station tower.
> The yagi array was coupled to another set of high-gain yagi
> antennas pointing down to the homesites in the valley.  I was
> told that it worked pretty well.
>
> Mike Baker
> --
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

[Alan Melia]

Hi Rob
Have you checked in your SPAM folder on the webmail site ?? BT-Yahoo is very
aggressive sometimesI even find it classifies its own Group management
messages as spam occasionally !!

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Kimberley" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:53 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads


> I don't know if it is just me, but I seem not to be getting all messages
> from Time Nuts. Quite often I'm seeing replies to a thread, and for the
life
> of me I can't find the original post.
>
> Comments anyone?
>
> Rob Kimberley
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

[Alan Melia]

The other one I think I have seen is that on different routes out of the
forum .. some congested routes may classify the mail as "Bulk" and these
get lower priority or are even help until the path eases. I suspect this may
explain the timing that David saw. I often seem to get replies before
questions very confusing on a time-nuts group :-)) but at least I wont
write it up in Science as a violation of Einstein !! :-))

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Kimberley" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads


> Hi Alan,
>
> Yes, I have checked this and yes there were some posts (new names, which
the
> spam engine didn't recognise). However, the one I was looking at in
> particular wasn't there.
>
> I wanted to know if there is a known problem or if anyone else has noticed
> the odd glitch.
>
> Also I get some replies to posts before I get the original post, but that
> could be down to something else.
>
> Rob
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Alan Melia
> Sent: 18 April 2012 13:53
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads
>
> Hi Rob
> Have you checked in your SPAM folder on the webmail site ?? BT-Yahoo is
very
> aggressive sometimesI even find it classifies its own Group management
> messages as spam occasionally !!
>
> Alan G3NYK
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Rob Kimberley" 
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 12:53 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads
>
>
> > I don't know if it is just me, but I seem not to be getting all messages
> > from Time Nuts. Quite often I'm seeing replies to a thread, and for the
> life
> > of me I can't find the original post.
> >
> > Comments anyone?
> >
> > Rob Kimberley
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

[Alan Melia]

Not time-nuts though Joe surely :-))
Alan

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph M Gwinn" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads



The usual cause of causality problems is senders'  mis-set local computer
clocks.  The rest of the email system believes the header date and time.

Joe Gwinn




From: "David C. Partridge" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Date: 04/18/2012 09:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads
Sent by: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com



Even wierder - there was a reply to your post at least 10 minutes BEFORE
your post arrived.

Someone is messing with causality.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Rob Kimberley
Sent: 18 April 2012 12:54
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Missing parts of threads

I don't know if it is just me, but I seem not to be getting all messages
from Time Nuts. Quite often I'm seeing replies to a thread, and for the
life of me I can't find the original post.

Comments anyone?

Rob Kimberley




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Re: [time-nuts] PICTIC II ready-made?...nanode

[Alan Melia]

Mmmm not too impressive a web site thoughthe link to the buy page doesnt
work backing up to the home the tabs in light grey on a white background are
almost unreadabletoo must geewhizz and not the right HF input I
suspectstill looks an interesting product.

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Andrew Back" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PICTIC II ready-made?


On 25 April 2012 19:09, Randy D. Hunt  wrote:

> Then there is also the matter of surface mount components. Some people my
> not physically be able to work with them, learning to solder or not. I am
> rapidly joining that group be cause of my vision.

Since Arduino has been mentioned I feel obliged to provide a link for
Nanode, an Arduino-compatible that integrates Ethernet and low power
wireless (e.g. 868MHz) for around the same price of an Arduino. It's
supplied as a kit of through-hole components...

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Nanode

Or a nice alternative might be a daughterboard for a Raspberry Pi,
which would give you an ARM/Linux base for not much more money, and
you could use it to create a standalone system that drives an old
monitor for a display.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi

Regards,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Back
http://carrierdetect.com

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Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type

[Alan Melia]

So it is not scientific information..just pseudo science.. like I
travelled back in Time yesterday !!  But then I woke up.

Another cold fusion..

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "jim s" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:16 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type


> This is a note on a site about some experiments to transmit information
> faster than light.  It fiddles with some definitions in the speed of
> light restrictions in quantum theory.
>
> the reason I am posting here is that it used Rubidium beams.  The actual
> publications may be of interest to those who use such around here.
>
> Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall.
>
> Jim
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/faster_than_light_quantum/
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type

[Alan Melia]

MMmmm I still thing that NIST should know better it obviously getting
near "appropriations time" I think you call it !! It is not a connector that
is loose this time!
I may have access to Phys Rev Letters.
Alan

- Original Message - 
From: "Cliff Sojourner" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type


> not at all.  read the summary, they are playing with group delay.
>
> oh and by the way, there is some effect working with "cold fusion".  we
> don't know what it is.
>
> that's why it's called basic research.  "if we knew what we were doing
> it wouldn't be called research"
>
> one more thing, people need to learn to hit the "delete" key if they
> don't like a particular email.  get over it.
>
> Cliff  K6CLS
>
> On 2012-05-07 16:13, Alan Melia wrote:
> > So it is not scientific information..just pseudo science.. like
I
> > travelled back in Time yesterday !!  But then I woke up.
> >
> > Another cold fusion..
> >
> > Alan G3NYK
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "jim s"
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:16 PM
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
> >
> >
> >> This is a note on a site about some experiments to transmit information
> >> faster than light.  It fiddles with some definitions in the speed of
> >> light restrictions in quantum theory.
> >>
> >> the reason I am posting here is that it used Rubidium beams.  The
actual
> >> publications may be of interest to those who use such around here.
> >>
> >> Sadly the actual information is behind a paywall.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/faster_than_light_quantum/
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] wwvb weak on east coast especially when thepre-amps under wa...

[Alan Melia]

Well almost Nigel, if you look at molecule mean velocities they are always
able to diffuse down a concentration gradient (i.e from wet into dry)
despite a small reverse presure gradient. It just takes longer under those
conditions :-))which is often "enough"

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] wwvb weak on east coast especially when thepre-amps
under wa...


> The other option of course is to pressurise the box with dry air to ensure
> a positive pressure differential, such that the net flow is always
outwards
> at  all points, but it's probably easier just to provide a drain hole:-)
>
> However, whilst a drain hole will prevent the build up of a lake inside
the
>  enclosure it still doesn't prevent condensation forming on circuit
boards,
> and  powered circuit boards and condensation don't really go well
together.
>
> As per earlier comments, it's quite difficult to keep any externally
> mounted enclosure totally moisture free, so it's much easier to accept the
> inevitable and allow for it.
>
> In a past life I designed quite a few circuit boards that  were required
to
> be fitted in externally mounted vented enclosures, so not  a great deal of
> pressurisation there then:-), and I usually specified that  both sides
> should be sprayed with a plastic coating following final test.
>
> I can't remember now exactly what this stuff was called, but it  was
> readily available in the UK from both RS and Farnell as an aerosol plastic
spray
> that provided a good barrier but was a bit more flexible than the  usual
MOD
> spec conformal coatings.
> It melted easily under a soldering iron, albeit with a foul  pong:-), so
> reworking was no problem, and resisted moisture remarkably  well.
>
> problem solved:-)
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 14/05/2012 23:10:30 GMT Daylight Time,
> arnold.ti...@gmx.de writes:
>
> The only  solutions I think:
> Apply air pressure tight boxes having a breathing hole  an the bottom,
> mount the
> box that no rain and water can penetrate from  the top or sides. If the
> hole is big enough,
> eg. 2mm, no pressure  difference is possible and no pumping effect will
> occur.
> (If the hole is  too wide, small animals may penetrate).
> Or,
> when using a pressure tight  box, it must be stiff and sealed to
> withstand under all
> temperature  conditions more then 1 bar/ 100 kPa. Do not forget that  all
> feed
> throughs must be of real hermetic type, normal coaxial  connectors are
> not tight!
> Don't route cables directly in, because no  cable braid or mesh is  vapor
> tight.
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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

[Alan Melia]

Then there is the NPL Time & Frequency Club at Teddington..oh sorry that 
is the wrong side of the Atlantic :-))


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder



Tom,

Agreed. We've given this some thought and I've polled people in the past. 
The issue is usually location and budgets so nothing has ever happened. 
Note that besides the NIST conference there are several other venues where 
time nuts are frequently spotted:

- Dayton hamvention (I've never been, but I know many others have).
- PTTI (I try to go every year).
- FCS, ION GPS, NAWCC (I attend if they're close enough).

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Knox" 

To: "Time-Nuts" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder




After following posts for a number of years I have learned the Time-Nuts 
community are not only a good source of knowledge but more important a 
great group of people. But even knowing that I am a bit overwhelmed after 
personally meeting several Time Nuts.  Of coure this is common knowledge 
to may of you long time members. That said the chance to get to know 
Magnus, David, John, and locals Hank and Skip has left me thinking.
In my humble opinion it would be great to put together an annual 
gathering of the Time and Freq Community, perhaps in conjunction with 
NIST's annual Seminar. If the time I have spent with Magnus and the other 
visiting Time-Nuts is any indication I  think a Time-Nuts gathering would 
quickly develop into the must attend event for people serious about time 
but the fantastic people researching it. I see this evolving not only a 
social gathering, but also a place for professions and amateurs to could 
showcase ideas and products.

Best Wishes;

Thomas Knox




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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

[Alan Melia]

Hi Dennis, it is part of the Comms and Electronics  Metrology Network now. I 
guess the DoTI or whatever they call it now has slashed the budget. There 
certainly have been meetings since 2004, and with Galileo proceeding there 
should be more though possibly under "Tracking and Location". I have not 
attended for a couple of years the last events I visited I got snarled in 
the M25 "Car Park" for a couple of hours, which detracted from the pleasure 
of the day a bit!. Several of the UK Group members attended.nice free 
buffet lunch!! Sign up for newsletters and you will get warning of meetings. 
I think I have dropped off their mailing list now.


Alan
G3NYK


- Original Message - 
From: "Dennis Ferguson" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2012 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder



On 6 Jun, 2012, at 16:44 , Alan Melia wrote:


Then there is the NPL Time & Frequency Club at Teddington..oh sorry 
that is the wrong side of the Atlantic :-))


Alan
G3NYK


Is there still?  Google comes up with this from 2004

   http://www.npl.co.uk/content/conWebDoc/2054

but the link to the "club home page" at the bottom goes no where.

I would attend if it weren't defunct.

Dennis Ferguson
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Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

[Alan Melia]

Hi Rob, me too my collegue has had a condition diagnosed which means he 
didn't fancy the trip either so I didn'r attend. I think the last was a 
joint meeting with the location an tracking group,which I was not too 
interested in. In fact I may have dropped off the mail list now.

Hope you are back to good heath again?
Best Wishes
Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Kimberley" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder



When is the next one Alan? I've tried looking on the NPL site but nothing
showing. I've missed some recent ones due to some health issues.

Rob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Alan Melia
Sent: 06 June 2012 23:45
To: Tom Van Baak; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder

Then there is the NPL Time & Frequency Club at Teddington..oh sorry 
that

is the wrong side of the Atlantic :-))

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder



Tom,

Agreed. We've given this some thought and I've polled people in the past.
The issue is usually location and budgets so nothing has ever happened.
Note that besides the NIST conference there are several other venues 
where



time nuts are frequently spotted:
- Dayton hamvention (I've never been, but I know many others have).
- PTTI (I try to go every year).
- FCS, ION GPS, NAWCC (I attend if they're close enough).

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Knox" 

To: "Time-Nuts" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time-nut gettogether in Boulder




After following posts for a number of years I have learned the Time-Nuts
community are not only a good source of knowledge but more important a
great group of people. But even knowing that I am a bit overwhelmed 
after



personally meeting several Time Nuts.  Of coure this is common knowledge
to may of you long time members. That said the chance to get to know
Magnus, David, John, and locals Hank and Skip has left me thinking.
In my humble opinion it would be great to put together an annual
gathering of the Time and Freq Community, perhaps in conjunction with
NIST's annual Seminar. If the time I have spent with Magnus and the 
other


visiting Time-Nuts is any indication I  think a Time-Nuts gathering 
would



quickly develop into the must attend event for people serious about time
but the fantastic people researching it. I see this evolving not only a
social gathering, but also a place for professions and amateurs to could
showcase ideas and products.
Best Wishes;

Thomas Knox




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Re: [time-nuts] Solar flare alert...not quite

[Alan Melia]

It's not actually a flare.that has been and gobe it a great bif glob of 
plasma, ejected by the same region. Spaceweather.com has a reputation for 
over-hyping these CME events. I could cause problems but there are a lot of 
conditions to be met before it is a disaster. Enjoy the aurora :-))


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sims" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:50 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Solar flare alert




There was a blurb on the news tonight about a big honkin' solar flare that 
is due to arrive around 6:00 AM tomorrow morning.   It's supposed to be 
strong enough to produce auroras visible as far south as the Gulf of 
Mexico and to mess up GPS...

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Re: [time-nuts] Solar flare alert

[Alan Melia]

Joe, Cellphone frequencies are little affected by ionospheric effects, so I 
would be surprised if that was an effect though GPS is a different matter, 
or sat-phone.


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Gray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Solar flare alert



I read about it yesterday. I suspect that we may already be seeing
some radio interference. At work this afternoon, my cell phone lost
signal entirely a few times. Although I don't get a great signal at
work, it has never lost signal completely before.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:


There was a blurb on the news tonight about a big honkin' solar flare 
that is due to arrive around 6:00 AM tomorrow morning.   It's supposed to 
be strong enough to produce auroras visible as far south as the Gulf of 
Mexico and to mess up GPS...

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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on a Laptop

[Alan Melia]

Mike some of the early laptops from this vintage switch the backlight off if 
closed but stay running, I used this for some 24/7 logging.you may even 
be able to get an old junk screen


Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Baker" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather on a Laptop



Hi, All--

I have dedicated an ancient Windows 95 laptop to sitting
on a shelf in my workshop running Lady Heather.  It's
CPU speed is only 400 MHz and it only has a very
small hard-drive and almost no memory but it seems to
handle LH well.  Except for some of the frequent power
outages we see around here, it has been running LH 24/7
for the last 3  years, maybe a little longer.  The screen is on
continually and is somewhat dimmer than when I installed it
but it is still quite useable.

Mike Baker
-


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Re: [time-nuts] Low power timekeeping

[Alan Melia]

Hi Chris when the British Post Office (later BT) ran radio stations, the 
station standard was usually in a hole 30 feet deep. Crystals were made in 
our own "Factory", a section of the Research department, so the crystals 
would have been cut to suit UK conditions. Maintaining systems were usually 
Meecham Bridge and the crystals most probably Essen rings which are fairly 
massive bits of Quartz.


Alan
G3NYK



- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Albertson" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low power timekeeping


On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Hal Murray  
wrote:



As you go deeper you get a delayed history of the surface temperature.


Right.  Skin depth.



A good oven runs rings around deep earth stability.


But a hole in the ground doesn't take any power.



That was my point.   At some depth you get less then a degree of
day/night and summer/winter variation.  That is very good for zero
power input.

Yes a precision controller could do better.  I onced used a Peltier
device with water heat sink all running in a vacuum insulated jar.  It
kept the temperature pretty much dead-on but at high cost in bulk (55
gal.drum of coolant)  and plumbing and in power.  But you get 0.3C
error for free and it runs for years on "nothing"   It's a trade off.


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator frequency?

[Alan Melia]

5.12MHz is  often used as the reference for PLL channelised radio receivers.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: "Don Latham" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oscillator frequency?



Hi Ken: I have two of these, and had the same problem some years ago
(see archives time-nuts). Nothing seemed to need this frequency. Fast
forward to present. I'm using an ICOM 260A 2m all-mode xceiver for if in
a 13 cm moonbounce system. The xtal frequency for the basic synthesizer
in these units is 5.12 MHz. I played around with the idea of separate
better xtals, until one day I was cleaning out. DOH! I now have a use
for those weird OCXO's!
Soo... never throw anything away, and never dismay, for all weird
stuff WILL be useful someday. There's a coarse adjustment of some kind
on these units.
73, Don AJ7LL

ken johnson

Hi, I have a tcxo that I recovered from a very old, suitcase-sized gps
receiver some years ago. The oscillator is marked "ERC
Eros-750-MA110", with an output frequency of 5.119155MHz. I have tried
to think of a use for for it but failed. I played with the numbers but
could not find anything useful, so I thought I would try the
collective wisdom of the list to see if anyone could come up with a
use for such an oddball frequency.

As an aside, it was fascinating to see a gps in discrete components,
lots of mixers (I recovered no less than 10, MCL ASK1 mixers and there
are still several left on the boards) on something like 7 or 8 , 200mm
square, gold-plated plug-in boards on a very nice card frame with
many, many interconnecting small-diameter coaxes with gold-plated
connectors.

Pity I wasn't interested in time-nuttery at the time, it probably
worked before I reduced it to component parts!

Thanks, Ken
www.vk7krj.com

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--
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???

[Alan Melia]

Hi Corby I havent checked Liberty Basic but I believe it does support 
57.6kBd.. I have definitely used this speed on PowerBasic for Windows which 
is a "latter day" upgrade of Borland stable, I believe, but very is very 
different to GWBasic or QBasic (which is also limited to 9600Bd) and is much 
more like MS Visual Basic which also support 57.6kBd but with totally 
abysmal support on comms interfacing. That was why I moved to PBfW which has 
a good working example that could probably be hacked for your purposes. 
Their API is a lot easier to understand too.


I hope that helps I am sure other will have their thoughts. Moving code from 
GWBasic to another flavour just to chnge the speed might not be completely 
trivial :-))


Alan
G3NYK



- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 6:44 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???



Hi,

I'm currently using a GWBasic program at 9600 Baud to get 1 second T.I.
data (12 digits) from an SR620 counter, display the reading , put the
reading into a file, name the file sequentialy, and either save or delete
the file via a function key.

I'm switching to a new counter that outputs at 57600 Baud (9 digits).

Is there a version of Basic I can use that would support that 57600 Baud
rate?

Thanks,

Corby

Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/507462c97549762c919e3st02duc

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Re: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???

[Alan Melia]

Dinosaurs ruled the world for millions of years, and morphed into creatures
that ruled the air until very recently .bit longer than "dotcomms" 
...They were very successfull :-))

Alan
G3NYK

- Original Message - 
From: 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???



I am pretty sure good old Visual Basic Pro version 6.0 (and newer) supports
to 115kb.

GW Basic officially makes you a ...

Didier KO4BB

Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.



-Original Message-
From: cdel...@juno.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 12:46 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???

Hi,

I'm currently using a GWBasic program at 9600 Baud to get 1 second T.I.
data (12 digits) from an SR620 counter, display the reading , put the
reading into a file, name the file sequentialy, and either save or delete
the file via a function key.

I'm switching to a new counter that outputs at 57600 Baud (9 digits).

Is there a version of Basic I can use that would support that 57600 Baud
rate?

Thanks,

Corby

Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/507462c97549762c919e3st02duc

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 Tuning Diode

[Alan Melia]

Rick, Adrian, I think there are a number of possibly material related areas 
that could cause a varicap to go noisy but I have no experience of them 
First a reversed biased diode makes quite a good particle detector :-)) and 
remanent radioactive atoms in say the glass could cause localised 
avalanches. This would seem unlikely because it would affect a whole batch 
but possible. I also wonder what the effect of strain, crystaline 
dislocations etc might do to the very small current flowing in a very high 
impedance. These can lead to odd effects when they penetrate the junction.. 
It could just be an unfortunate sample. I suspect the level of noise current 
is way below any specified meaured value.


Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message - 
From: "Adrian" 
To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement" 

Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 10811 Tuning Diode



I didn't notice any damage, nor was there a visibly bad solder joint.
However, I couldn't reproduce the excess noise with a quick bench test at 
30V / 100k neither.

DC-wise there are a few microvolts only. Same with the SMD diode.
Exept, when the original glass diode is exposed to light. With a LED 
Maglite, I got up to 50 mV (across 100 kOhm) out of it!

But there is no light shining inside of a 10811, is there?

I had first suspected a 0.1 ceramic cap, but that didn't cure the phase 
noise desease.

The diode in the original circuit appeared to be heat sensitive,
and the excess phase noise has gone away since I replaced the diode.
The noise was clearly there, and it was also there using a test adapter 
and two lab power supplies.


Adrian

Rick Karlquist schrieb:

I wonder if the glass case got a crack in it or if the kovar seal
was failing.  Maybe a failed solder joint (which gets fixed when you
install the new diode). I've never heard of a noisy varactor before 
either.


Rick


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Re: [time-nuts] Hameg HM8125 Time/frequency Standard

[Alan Melia]

Hi Ian I dont know whether it works for that unit, but try the Hameg site.
http://www.hameg.com/66.0.html
There are "almost" complete manuals for all the units (well certainly the
scopes!) You may find that there are no schematics in the English
versionsdownload the German versions (which you may see are bigger
files) and the are often schematics at the back of thesethe titles etc
are also bilingual.

Hope that helps
Cheers de Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Ian Sheffield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:51 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Hameg HM8125 Time/frequency Standard


> Hello,
>
> Does anyone have a copy of a schematic or service manual for the
down-converter for the Hameg HM8125
> GPS frequency/time receiver?
>
> The receiver and display seems to be working fine, but the separate
down-converter appears to have been modified with a capacitor blocking the
DC power feed from the receiver and what may be a voltage regulator has been
removed. The downconverter appears to do more than just shift frequency, as
it has a TDA 1574 FM subsystem chip in it as well as the expected RF
circuitry.
>
> Any help would be appreciated, or even if someone had a spare
downconverter for sale.?
>
> These units do unfortunately, appear to be as scarce as hens' teeth.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Ian Sheffield
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Hameg HM8125 Time/frequency Standard

[Alan Melia]

You might try the UK agent who has been quite helpful on scope spares.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I can't remember the fellow's name now, but I bought several control knobs
to refurb an HM1005 scope. He was very helpful though this adress is not the
one on the back of the manuals!

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Ian Sheffield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Hameg HM8125 Time/frequency Standard


> Hi Alan,
>
> Tried that, and downloaded the operating manual a while back.
> Tried your tip and looked at the German version, but no luck either.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion though.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ian.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Alan Melia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Hameg HM8125 Time/frequency Standard
>
>
> > Hi Ian I dont know whether it works for that unit, but try the Hameg
site.
> > http://www.hameg.com/66.0.html
> > There are "almost" complete manuals for all the units (well certainly
the
> > scopes!) You may find that there are no schematics in the English
> > versionsdownload the German versions (which you may see are bigger
> > files) and the are often schematics at the back of thesethe titles
etc
> > are also bilingual.
> >
> > Hope that helps
> > Cheers de Alan G3NYK
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Ian Sheffield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 7:51 AM
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Hameg HM8125 Time/frequency Standard
> >
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Does anyone have a copy of a schematic or service manual for the
> > down-converter for the Hameg HM8125
> >> GPS frequency/time receiver?
> >>
> >> The receiver and display seems to be working fine, but the separate
> > down-converter appears to have been modified with a capacitor blocking
the
> > DC power feed from the receiver and what may be a voltage regulator has
> > been
> > removed. The downconverter appears to do more than just shift frequency,
> > as
> > it has a TDA 1574 FM subsystem chip in it as well as the expected RF
> > circuitry.
> >>
> >> Any help would be appreciated, or even if someone had a spare
> > downconverter for sale.?
> >>
> >> These units do unfortunately, appear to be as scarce as hens' teeth.
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >>
> >> Ian Sheffield
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
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> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1565 - Release Date:
7/21/2008
> > 18:36
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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[time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?

[Alan Melia]

Hi all,  in the process of setting up a GPS time standard for a Radio
Astronomy facility (amateur) we installed a GPS receiver in a small cabin
with a translucent roof, thinking that would not impede the GPS signal.
After a lot of head scratching as to why we were not getting the performane
we got at another site, we realised that the "convenient position" for the
cabin was directly below a three phase 11kV power distribution line ( common
UK rural electricity distribution system). We extended the cable and moved
the antenna about 20 - 30 feet to the side of the line run, which was
mounted on wooden poles at about 25 feet. In this position we immediately
got a reliable fix. The fix and number of usable satellites degrades as we
move nearer the lines.

The thought was that there as interference arcing or corona noise from the
line insulators, and a receiver (AM) was deployed to listen for what was
expected to be a substantial wide band noise signalwe didnt hear one! We
are now confused about what the effect is. The signal could not be
"screened" by the wires which are about 3 feet apart, but they definite
provide a cone of interference directly under the run. The experiment was
later repeated with two further different GPS receivers and produced the
same result.

Has anyone seen this before? have you any idea of what level noise we should
be looking for? I believe this is a wide signal so maybe an AM receiver is
not the best choice The area is a rural, horticultural area (called market
garden in the UK) We are obviouslt concerned to trace any noise sources in
the vicinity of the Hydrogen line frequency at 1420MHz.

Alan G3NYK


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Dave, Ah I meant a 1600Mhz AM RX not a MW job the resuly is quite
dramatic from seeing no usable satelites to seeing 10 to 12. The software we
are running plots the tracks of the those sats seen so we can see that when
seen even close to trees, foliage shielding is not a problem. I could post
this plot over a number of hours it is "very pretty", and shows clearly the
northerly extent of the orbits very clearly.

Thanks Magnus for thoughts on further tests. We are logging the NMEA
sentences so most of that detail could be available. A job for a laptop I
think.

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: "David Ackrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 8:30 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?


> Alan Melia wrote:
> > Hi all,  in the process of setting up a GPS time standard for a Radio
> > Astronomy facility (amateur) we installed a GPS receiver in a small
cabin
> > with a translucent roof, thinking that would not impede the GPS signal.
> > After a lot of head scratching as to why we were not getting the
performane
> > we got at another site, we realised that the "convenient position" for
the
> > cabin was directly below a three phase 11kV power distribution line (
common
> > UK rural electricity distribution system).
>
> Since the satellite signals are in the high UHF range, arround 1575MHz,
> the AM receiver test is not going to tell you alot about the noise at
> the frequency that the GPS receiver is using.  So, even if you had
> detected any noise from the overhead lines, it might not have been proof
> that this was the cause of the problems.
>
> I find that the positioning of the antenna for a GPS receiver can be
> very touchy.  You really need a good view to the horizon and, despite
> what you might see on simple presentations of the satellite positions,
> they do tend to be mainly in the southern sky when viewed from the UK.
>
> See
> http://www.guralp.com/articles/20060405-howto-gps-troubleshooting/print
> for details.
>
> The other effect that you may notice is that your 'good' position for
> the antenna isn't so good all of the time as the satellites appear to
> move round the sky and the signal strengths from each alters.
>
> Dave (G0DJA)
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Tom Brilliant I hadnt thought of the fields actually affecting the
operation of the electronics! that is certainly something that might be
interesting to check. I note there lines have three "phase" feeds but no
neutral wire so they must use ground as the return path to any unbalance
currents.(?)

Thanks Alan G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas A. Frank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?


> Alan;
>
> I have no idea if this is a cause of your problem, but in some work I
> have done, I found that the high field strengths (electrostatic and
> magnetic) found under power lines can adversely effect electronic
> equipment that should otherwise be unaffected by the presence of
> power lines and their low frequency signals.
there.
--snip


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Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?

[Alan Melia]

Hi Didier, thanks for that idea, yes they were all "pucks" all Garmin two
intended for marine use and one was a old Garmin GPSIIplus with a  mag
"puck". I have a Trimble Palisade that I have not got round to working on
yet, but I understand that there are problems putting this version into NMEA
mode...so will have to be careful.

 Thanks Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Didier Juges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?


> Alan,
>
> I don't believe you have said what type of antenna you are using. If you
are
> using a true timing antenna (Symmetricom, Trimble Bullet) I would expect
> little or no direct effect from the power lines, but if you are using a
puck
> or other inexpensive commercial antenna (which have little or no filtering
> or shielding), you may well be affected directly by the field from the
power
> line on the antenna itself. The Thunderbolt itself should have enough
> filtering to protect you from a direct effect, the Thunderbolt has been
> designed to be co-located with other equipment, particularly cell
> transmitters, so I would expect it to be fairly immune to stray fields.
>
> Didier KO4BB



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Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?

[Alan Melia]

Hi David yes indeed and the qualify of the fix imporves as we move away at
right angles to the linedespite some trees and a tall hedge on one side.
Dramatic and quite repeatable.

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: "David McGaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS shielding by power lines?


> You didn't say if you tried the antenna under the power lines but
> outside the cabin.  What is translucent to light may not be to microwaves.
>
> David N1HAC
.


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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1250B

[Alan Melia]

Hi Corby, my 1250a has an EFC connection on the rear panel (a bnc connector)
I have some circuitry but not sure at present what "suffix" letter it refers
to My 1250as have a 5MHz OCXO.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "corby d dawson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1250B


>
> Hi,
>
> I am playing with an Austron 1250B and I'd like to add a fine frequency
> adjust.
>
> The data sheet I have on the 1150 oscillator inside indicates that the
> EFC input is an option.
>
> Anyone have a schematic for the 1250B that shows how the 1150 is wired
> in.
>
> If no EFC on this unit I'll be getting rid of it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Corby Dawson
> 
> Click to make millions by owning your own franchise.
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m6iSRbslUuv6eYSqQX4VKjWuK
9N7IRHgjWc9Dfez5DWUmBr/
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1250B

[Alan Melia]

Hi Corby and Nigel. I think I have a data sheet for the 1150 oscillator
somewhere as well. I have an "orphan" 1MHz unit. The "a" definitely has the
EFC on the rear and I recollect seeing a spec for the swing per volt. I seen
to think it is quite fine and would be useful for GPS steering.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "corby d dawson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron 1250B


>
> Hi,
>
> I am playing with an Austron 1250B and I'd like to add a fine frequency
> adjust.
>
> The data sheet I have on the 1150 oscillator inside indicates that the
> EFC input is an option.
>
> Anyone have a schematic for the 1250B that shows how the 1150 is wired
> in.
>
> If no EFC on this unit I'll be getting rid of it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Corby Dawson
> 
> Click to make millions by owning your own franchise.
>
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m6iSRbslUuv6eYSqQX4VKjWuK
9N7IRHgjWc9Dfez5DWUmBr/
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Do any regulations or laws require tim e to be accurate within 'x' seconds?

[Alan Melia]

- Original Message -
From: "Gretchen Baxter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 5:03 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Do any regulations or laws require time to be accurate
within 'x' seconds?


> Greetings,
>
> There are a lot of regulations that mandate synchronized time.
>
> But do any of these regulations or laws require time to be accurate within
> 'x' seconds?  Such as, 'time much be synchronized within 5 seconds of GPS
> time.
>
> Thanx,
>
> Gretchen
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Re: [time-nuts] Checking accuracy of Rubidium standards

[Alan Melia]

This is an interesting thread again.it may be similar to ones that have
been discussed, but one or two furthur questions occur to me. I have a
Montronics sytem that does comparisons by the multiply and mix process, and
I find (also common to more modern Kethly systems) that the limitation is
around a part in 10^10 where the noise on the phase output makes it not
really usable (without a lot of averaging) being around or in excess of 90
degreees even with a couple of very good OXCOs. How does the 10G comparision
avoid this problem with standard multipliers? I doubt you can go all that
way with low-noise multipliers and have any useful signal left, or have I
missed something. At present I use a phase meter (lock in amps can be quite
good) at the MHz range and datalog the phase drift for several hours. I have
determined that setting "on the nose" is not necessary (for my
applications). It is more useful to know how far a source is "off".
How does the mix down compare with the seemingly more popular "mix down and
timestamp" I understand from previous threads that this has more potential
but might it also be as good even using simpler circuits that the NIST
system.

Thanks for all your efforts inthe background John. great reading
material !

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Jeffrey Pawlan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement" 
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Checking accuracy of Rubidium standards


>
>
> On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Randy wrote:
>
> > I was wondering if it is worthwhile or even feasible to compare an LPRO
> > Rubidium standard against a Z3801.  Since their frequencies are probably
> > going to be extremely close anyway it would seem some special
> > method/equipment would be required for high precision.  Suggestions?
> >
> >
> > Randy, W7HR
> > Port Orchard, WA
>
> The best way would be to compare the highest possible frequencies you can
> generate with these two sources. I use two 10GHz sources that are each
phase
> locked to an external 10MHz reference. Then the 10GHz outputs can be
compared
> using either of these easy methods:
> 1) look at the DC/IF output of a microwave mixer where the LO and RF ports
are
> driven by the two 10GHz sources. Don't overdrive the RF input to a level
that
> can burn out your mixer.
>
> 2) use a good microwave frequency counter to read one of the 10GHz outputs
while
> driving the counter's 10MHz ext ref input with the 10MHz from the other
10MHz
> source. This is very fast but will only give you accuracy readings that
are a
> function of the resolution of the counter plus the bounce of the last
digit
> owing to sampling and triggering.
>
> 3) if you have access to a lab with one or two microwave synthesized
signal
> generators, then you can apply the 10MHz sources to the ext ref inputs of
each
> of these signal generators and then proceed as in 1) or 2)
> I have done comparison at 26GHz this way so I have a bit more resolution.
>
> 73,
>
> Jeffrey Pawlan  WA6KBL
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Why/when did cell towers switch to 15 MHz?

[Alan Melia]

Some of the ex Telcom units I have seen have 10MHz Rb or OCXO (Datum or
Lucent) and a 10 to 15MHz converter in a milled cover externallysome
frequencies are more easily generated from 15MHz.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Why/when did cell towers switch to 15 MHz?


> Not exactly sure why they use 15 MHz, but a good buddy of mine who's a
> Verizon Wireless tech says 15 MHz it is.
>
> Mike
there.


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Re: [time-nuts] PC run FFT

[Alan Melia]

Neville there is a Fourier routine built in I have used it for time sequence
analysis. It is not loaded by default. You may have to check the dropdown
menus to load it in (at least that was what I needed to do, but I am mean
and running an old Op-system :-)) )

Cheers de Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Neville Michie" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 9:50 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] PC run FFT


> Hi,
> does anyone know of a fast fourier transform module or subroutine
> that could be run in XCEL ?
> Or a small program that could process a data set in a PC.
> It is a convenient way of handling data but I have not seen a FFT in
> the box of tricks.
> cheers, Neville Michie
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Solstice question, about 5000 years ago

[Alan Melia]

Hi Bill
About 100 millenia of accumulated experience with probably the last  2 or
three actually farming very successfully where you need to know about
seasons. The Celts were a very civilised people (but their history was
written by their conquorers!)  and great traders even in those days. Flints
were exported and later metals tin lead and copper, and even some gold. The
Romans didnt beat us up for nothing !! It had to be worth the effort. GB was
the granary of their western empire. Note Stonehenge dates from the same
period or even earlier and has 10 ton stones which can only be found 100
miles away on the Welsh mountains.not just picked up near by! Mind you I
dont expect the drummed the local Druid out of the time-nuts if he got it
wrong by a day :-))

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Bill Hawkins" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Solstice question, about 5000 years ago


> The passage grave at New Grange, Ireland, is one of those astronomical
> wonders where the rising sun at winter solstice shines down a relatively
> long tunnel to shine on carved stone at the far wall of a chamber.
>
> We know that solstice has the shortest day and the longest night.
>
> How'd they know that?
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
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[time-nuts] Astro-paleology or paleo-astronomy

[Alan Melia]

Hi Magnus, I am sure I have at least one astro planetarium program somewhere
(it doesnt get much use here) that will allow you to set the clock to 5000BC
not GPS disciplined though :-)) I will have to check the detail. One was
written by a good friend now deceased.

Alan G3NYK



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Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Update

[Alan Melia]

Hi all, I am running an AMD Duron 700MHz running W98SE when run the program
opens a DOS window but crashes the video monitor until the program is
stopped with the escape key. So some of the problems may be with the monitor
parameters which may not support the high res that a lot will be running
even on 98. One solution might be to temporarily select a generic VGA ?? and
the boot the program ?? But setting the display to 640 x 480 and 16 colours
also gave a blank sccreen (the monitor didn't undestand the drive to it )

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Magnus Danielson" 
To: "Richard W. Solomon" ; "Discussion of precise time
and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Update


> Richard W. Solomon skrev:
> > I tried it on my Compaq 486 running WIN98SE I get a black screen
> > with Logoff on it and a couple of other lines that make no sense ?
> >
> > Who has the Rosetta Stone ??
>
> I do not know... British Museum maybe?
>
> I tried to recompile in my Cygwin environment but with no luck, failed
> to compile.
>
> It seems to be beyond me... I know nothing about Windows... I just need
> to run the damn thing for some apps...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem

[Alan Melia]

I am sure it is NOT a good idea to hand heavy cable like RG-8 from the
N-type connector. What will hapen is that the cable will walk out of the
connector and the centre pin will withdraw from the socket. This happens
whilst the outer jacket stretches so there is no indiction there is a
physical problem. This can happen very quickly but does depend on the strain
put on the cable (Amateur Radio field-day experience !!) You should always
loop the cable and take the strain off the connector totally. Take the cable
down and remake it, add strain relief,  and all will probably be well.

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: "Bill Hawkins" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"

Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 8:05 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem


> Group,
>
> My GPS time system consists of two Z3801A receivers with two HP cone
> antennas.
> I built a mast from plastic pipe (6" base to 2" arms) that is about 16
> feet tall.
> The antennas are 4 feet apart, each 2' from the center of the mast. The
> mast
> rises from a deck and is fastened 8' up at the roof line. The mast sits
> on a
> 3/4" sheet of high density marine plastic fastened to the deck with
> stainless
> hinges so that the antenna can be folded away from the house and brought
> to the
> deck railing. The mast was put up in 2003.
>
> The antenna cables are each half of a 100' coil of RG-8U. Each cable is
> about
> half in the house and half outdoors. N connectors are soldered to both
> ends, so
> no adapters are used. The cables leave the house through a waterproof
> boat deck
> fitting and travel about 5' under the deck to the mast. There's a
> service loop
> to allow the mast to be lowered, then the cables rise unsupported
> through the
> mast pipe and branch out to the antennas, which support the weight of
> the cables.
>
> Oh, and the location is Minneapolis, MN, USA.
>
> The problem is loss of signal during cold weather. Last winter (07-08) I
> lost
> the signal from one antenna during a cold snap, but it came back a week
> or so
> later when it warmed up outside. This winter, I lost The North antenna
> on Nov
> 22 when the low was 15, and it didn't come back. Then the South antenna
> went
> away on Dec 24 with a -17 low and didn't come back. I'm still running on
> holdover.
>
> I suspect that it's not a good idea to hang 20 feet of RG-8 from an N
> connector
> without some kind of strain relief, but I don't know why that would be a
> cold
> weather effect. Perhaps the center conductor shrinks more than cable and
> its
> braid, and pulls the center pin out. There's definitely an open circuit,
> looking
> at the receiver end of the cable. There's no alarm from the Z3801.
>
> Any thoughts, comments or ideas?
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
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