Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/12/2005 12:10:32 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE I think the twelve tribes did each have one of the zodiac signs as its symbol-- Joseph was Taurus (each horn of the bull representing one of his sons--Ephraim and Mannasseh), Dan was Scorpio, Judah was Leo, Reuben was Aquarius, etc., but a book I own says there are more than twelve different personalities possible as symbolized by the zodiac--it was almost an infinite number, due to the 360 degrees in the zodiac circle, multiplied by the twelve signs, multiplied by 144 different sun-moon combinations, multiplied by the positions of the planets in the zodiac and their combinations with the sun and the moon and, etc.etc. etc. The number was 10 to the 332nd power! This would come a little closer to accounting for each unique personality than any personality theory I am aware of. cd: Actually The Zodiac was adapted from the Jewish Traditions which didn't used our modern day Zodiac-They saw Samson-Moses and other prophets in the stars. In a message dated 12/10/2005 11:37:21 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Looks like you and I were born just a few days apart, Blaine. So wouldnt that mean we are pretty much identical? (Disturbing thought!!!) Gee, there must only be 12 different kinds of folks in the world; kinda like the twelve tribes of Israel, huh? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Judy you're just too fixed on a one bible only theme. You would enjoy your life more if you would loosen up on that point a bit, huh? The Book of Mormon is the word of God, and see what you are missing? Tell me your birthday, maybe I can psych out your problem . . . :) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
cd: How old was J.Smith when he did these great feats? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/11/2005 10:44:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Else how could joe have moved them According to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon was engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin The volume was something near six inches in thickness(Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, v3:9, March 1, 1842, 707.) They have been figured to be around 200lbs if gold. A block of solid tin measuring 7 x 8 x 6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If one allows for a 30 percent reduction due to the unevenness and space between the plates, the package would then weigh 52.27 pounds. Using the same calculations, plates of gold weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; a mixture of gold and copper, between 65 and 140 pounds. (Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 600) The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105). Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold platesDAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Nobody knows since there are conflicting stories 14-19? when this fable occuredDean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cd: How old was J.Smith when he did these great feats?- Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/11/2005 10:44:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEElse how could joe have moved them According to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon was engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin The volume was something near six inches in thickness(Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, v3:9, March 1, 1842, 707.) They have been figured to be around 200lbs if gold.A block of solid tin measuring 7 x 8 x 6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If one allows for a 30 percent reduction due to the unevenness and space between the plates, the package would then weigh 52.27 pounds. Using the same calculations, plates of gold weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; a mixture of gold and copper, between 65 and 140 pounds. (Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 600) The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105).Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold platesDAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:who are its authors?On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
JSmiths story is typical of the type of stories told by sociopaths. Ive had a bit of exposure to such types on more than one occasion, unfortunately. I once was part of a Christian writers group that was joined by a man who just didnt seem right to me. He gave me the creeps, and I felt uncomfortable around him. Everyone else was awed with his talent (which I couldnt see at all) and all the wonderful stories he told about himself doing good works, plus stories about how he had been mistreated and abused in his lifetime. He was so good at presenting himself as a fantastic Christian that a local Baptist church hired him as the youth minister. Meantime I continued to view him with suspicion, but couldnt figure out why I felt that way towards someone that everyone else thought was the perfect Christian. It wasnt until he started telling fantastic stories about how he had been alone at the church and men had broken in and assaulted him, etc., that the church started getting suspicious and fired him. He was exposed as a fraud, and shortly after that left town with his wife and two young sons. Years later this man was featured on a TV crime show as someone who had systematically, over the years, murdered his mother-in-law, his wife, and a couple of other people in his family. My friend who had befriended him and invited him into our group was very upset about it all. I get the same feeling about stories told by and about JSmith as I got from that fellow. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 10:42 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Sounds like a tough neighborhood. Joe must have been as full of grit as bad bad Leroy Brown. Kevin Deegan wrote: The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105). Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold plates DAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Thanks for that, Iz. Very discerning! - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 12, 2005 09:38 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE JSmiths story is typical of the type of stories told by sociopaths. Ive had a bit of exposure to such types on more than one occasion, unfortunately. I once was part of a Christian writers group that was joined by a man who just didnt seem right to me. He gave me the creeps, and I felt uncomfortable around him. Everyone else was awed with his talent (which I couldnt see at all) and all the wonderful stories he told about himself doing good works, plus stories about how he had been mistreated and abused in his lifetime. He was so good at presenting himself as a fantastic Christian that a local Baptist church hired him as the youth minister. Meantime I continued to view him with suspicion, but couldnt figure out why I felt that way towards someone that everyone else thought was the perfect Christian. It wasnt until he started telling fantastic stories about how he had been alone at the church and men had broken in and assaulted him, etc., that the church started getting suspicious and fired him. He was exposed as a fraud, and shortly after that left town with his wife and two young sons. Years later this man was featured on a TV crime show as someone who had systematically, over the years, murdered his mother-in-law, his wife, and a couple of other people in his family. My friend who had befriended him and invited him into our group was very upset about it all. I get the same feeling about stories told by and about JSmith as I got from that fellow. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 10:42 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Sounds like a tough neighborhood. Joe must have been as full of grit as bad bad Leroy Brown.Kevin Deegan wrote: The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105). Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold platesDAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Blainerb: As I have indicated before, the plates were finally delivered to him on September 22, 1827. He was born on December23, 1805. In a message dated 12/12/2005 5:08:19 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd: How old was J.Smith when he did these great feats? - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/11/2005 10:44:47 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Else how could joe have moved them According to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon was “engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin The volume was something near six inches in thickness”(Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, v3:9, March 1, 1842, 707.) They have been figured to be around 200lbs if gold. A block of solid tin measuring 7 x 8 x 6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If one allows for a 30 percent reduction due to the unevenness and space between the plates, the package would then weigh 52.27 pounds. Using the same calculations, plates of gold weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; a mixture of gold and copper, between 65 and 140 pounds. (Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 600) The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105). Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold platesDAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Blaine writes: The Book of Mormon is the word of God I'm sure you know already that I don't buy that Blaine; God's Words never contradict themselves, he is not confused. Thanks for your concern but to the contraryI am content, I enjoy my life, God has always been faithful so I'm not about to desert Him at this late date. PS: He calls diviners and diviningan abomination that should not be seen in Israel. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy you're just too fixed on a one bible only theme. You would enjoy your life more if you would loosen up on that point a bit, huh? The Book of Mormon is the word of God, and see what you are missing? Tell me your birthday, maybe I can psych out your problem . . . :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:41:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have it and have yet to figure out what it is excellent for I'd put it on the same level as "Dead Sea Scrolls" and "Dead Sea Scroll Bibles" On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I SELL this book. It's excellent! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
See my response to CPL. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 22:42 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE That's interesting Lance!! If I do not soon find my copy I may buy another from you? It is an excellent book!! Blainerb In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:17:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
So Satan told the Truth as far as "ye shall be as" But God left this info out, and did not tell them the "WHOLE TRUTH"?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 12/9/2005 8:15:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The lie that Satan perpetrated in the garden of Eden to deceive Eve is still alive today in some cults..."and ye shall be as gods".Perry Blainerb: "and ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil," was actually the truth--the lie was that they would not die. Satan often pairs the truth with a lie so as to give the lie credibility--politicians often do the same thing, as do Street Preachers :) Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Who's he?Apparentlt the guy who designed the stars on your TEMPLES! No wonder there is the sign of Baphomet all over your temples as Joe was a Freemason.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:24:09 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Iheard that there was abook explaining how the earth is the center of the UniverseIt probably has as much truth as your book. If I give you chapter verse out of this book? so what!Are Anton Laveys books good for your "spiritual Enlightenment"? Who's he? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse.In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
How amazing - This situation completely reverses everything Woe until them that call evil goodandgoodevil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!! (Isa 5:20) On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 05:34:04 -0800 (PST) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Satan told the Truth as far as "ye shall be as" But God left this info out, and did not tell them the "WHOLE TRUTH"? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/9/2005 8:15:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The lie that Satan perpetrated in the garden of Eden to deceive Eve is still alive today in some cults..."and ye shall be as gods".Perry Blainerb: "and ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil," was actually the truth--the lie was that they would not die. Satan often pairs the truth with a lie so as to give the lie credibility--politicians often do the same thing, as do Street Preachers :) Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
- Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 12/11/2005 8:34:12 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Satan told the Truth as far as "ye shall be as" But God left this info out, and did not tell them the "WHOLE TRUTH"? cd: They already new good due to God's presencein the garden- so their only gain was to know evil and they learned this after taking Satan adviceof sinning-as do Mormons love eating forbidding fruit so did AE. "Just a little lusting and all will be well as I am a spiritual man and cannot fall"- saith the fool in his heart-then speaks it with his mouth. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/9/2005 8:15:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The lie that Satan perpetrated in the garden of Eden to deceive Eve is still alive today in some cults..."and ye shall be as gods".Perry Blainerb: "and ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil," was actually the truth--the lie was that they would not die. Satan often pairs the truth with a lie so as to give the lie credibility--politicians often do the same thing, as do Street Preachers :) Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
But you see, lance, it is almost impossible to have a straight conversation with you. I ask a quaestion, you answer a different one. That is called beign OBTUSE. It does not lead to conversation, and tends to make one appear arrogant. All I want to do is get a link to your bookstore. And, what is an anti-thingy? From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:44:47 -0500 Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I believe you mean to use the word ABSTRUSE instead of OBTUSE do you not, Charles? How are you able to MODERATE when you misperceive so regularly? As to the 'anti-thingy', Charles: I weary, even though I must say mea culpa, (1 Cor 2) of you, Dean, Kevin, Judy etc. always writing in the 'attack mode'. PS:I don't have a link. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE But you see, lance, it is almost impossible to have a straight conversation with you. I ask a quaestion, you answer a different one. That is called beign OBTUSE. It does not lead to conversation, and tends to make one appear arrogant. All I want to do is get a link to your bookstore. And, what is an anti-thingy? From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:44:47 -0500 Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
You are not, therefore, culturally relevant. iz -Original Message- PS:I don't have a link. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Perry in this case obtuse would probably be an improvement I for one find the "abstruseness" since he likes that wordto be quite wearying. On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:15:00 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I believe you mean to use the word ABSTRUSE instead of OBTUSE do you not, Charles? How are you able to MODERATE when you misperceive so regularly? As to the 'anti-thingy', Charles: I weary, even though I must say mea culpa, (1 Cor 2) of you, Dean, Kevin, Judy etc. always writing in the 'attack mode'. PS:I don't have a link. - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEBut you see, lance, it is almost impossible to have a straight conversation with you. I ask a quaestion, you answer a different one. That is called beign OBTUSE. It does not lead to conversation, and tends to make one appear arrogant. All I want to do is get a link to your bookstore. And, what is an "anti-thingy"? From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:44:47 -0500 Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to "post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares." From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was "removed," at least. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- &q
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Like this is just us..eh? We in the 'Great White North' , hosers all, salute you. with our beer and back bacon. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 10:21 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE You are not, therefore, culturally relevant. iz -Original Message- PS:I don't have a link. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
MW: obtuse: 2b : difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression MW: abstruse: difficult to comprehend Nope. I meant obtuse, not abstruse. What I was intending to say is that you do not approach questions from an acute angle. You most often respond to posts at a less than a direct angle, and have to play around with your own ideas about what others should be saying, or how they should be saying it instead of dealing directly (accutely) with what they have posted. It was a simple request, Lance, and a simple response would have done. IMO, this is not a sign of intelligence. It is a sign of arrogance and egocentrism. If you do not know what a poster is seeking, ask them. If you do, answer them directly. KISS. Thanks for a straight answer to my original question about a website for your bookstore. It only took 4 posts to extract that simple answer from you. As far as attack mode, please read my posts before you respond. Who have I attacked on this forum other than the promoters of mormon doctrine? (I am seeking a straight answer in one post...a difficult feat, I am sure, but IT CAN BE DONE!) Perry From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:15:00 -0500 I believe you mean to use the word ABSTRUSE instead of OBTUSE do you not, Charles? How are you able to MODERATE when you misperceive so regularly? As to the 'anti-thingy', Charles: I weary, even though I must say mea culpa, (1 Cor 2) of you, Dean, Kevin, Judy etc. always writing in the 'attack mode'. PS:I don't have a link. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE But you see, lance, it is almost impossible to have a straight conversation with you. I ask a quaestion, you answer a different one. That is called beign OBTUSE. It does not lead to conversation, and tends to make one appear arrogant. All I want to do is get a link to your bookstore. And, what is an anti-thingy? From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:44:47 -0500 Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Mozel Tov! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:33 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Like this is just us..eh? We in the 'Great White North' , hosers all, salute you. with our beer and back bacon. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 10:21 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE You are not, therefore, culturally relevant. iz -Original Message- PS:I don't have a link. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
[Original Message] From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 10:21:58 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE You are not, therefore, culturally relevant. iz cd: Did he say link or clue? -Original Message- PS:I don't have a link. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I said the former but meant both, Dean. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 11:58 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE [Original Message] From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 10:21:58 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE You are not, therefore, culturally relevant. iz cd: Did he say link or clue? -Original Message- PS:I don't have a link. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
YIKES!!! Ya know I never thunk of THAT!! No wonder income is so small. Thanks Dean. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 11:56 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE [Original Message] From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 9:44:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. cd: His store must not be open to the public Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
[Original Message] From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 12:01:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE YIKES!!! Ya know I never thunk of THAT!! No wonder income is so small. Thanks Dean. cd: Just write All Canadians Welcome on a sign and hang it on the door while keeping silent-and your income will increase. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 11:56 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE [Original Message] From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 9:44:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. cd: His store must not be open to the public Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
'Silence' being the operative word, right? Well, of course, Lance. Do remember that the moderator. his own self, just issued a pronouncement as to your 'obtusiosity' or was it 'abstrusiosity'. Oh well, as Arch used to say,...whatever. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 12:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE [Original Message] From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 12:01:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE YIKES!!! Ya know I never thunk of THAT!! No wonder income is so small. Thanks Dean. cd: Just write All Canadians Welcome on a sign and hang it on the door while keeping silent-and your income will increase. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 11:56 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE [Original Message] From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Date: 12/11/2005 9:44:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Charles Perry Locke!! I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles. cd: His store must not be open to the public Charles. - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500 We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't? - Original Message - From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
For all those that want to know about the BOOKSTORELance sends his kindest regards and wants you to know the answer is; his car is BLUE! Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But you see, lance, it is almost impossible to have a straight conversation with you. I ask a quaestion, you answer a different one. That is called beign OBTUSE. It does not lead to conversation, and tends to make one appear arrogant. All I want to do is get a link to your bookstore. And, what is an "anti-thingy"?From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEDate: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:44:47 -0500Charles Perry Locke!!I KNEW what you were asking! Let go this anti-thingy Charles.- Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>Sent: December 11, 2005 09:35Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AELance, I was not asking for recommendations, just asking you to "post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares."From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEDate: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:11:38 -0500We'd best be certain that we're speaking of the same book(s). When I say that it (the book) is excellent, I'M NOT RECOMMENDING IT! This is particularly true concerning those who believe other texts to function on a par with Scripture. I apologize if I mislead anyone on this. I carry lots of material that I'd not recommend to everyone. Who wouldn't?- Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>Sent: December 11, 2005 00:25Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AELance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares.From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: <TRUTHTALK@MAIL.INNGLORY.ORG>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEDate: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was "removed," at least.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL P
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Else how could joe have moved them According to Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon was engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin The volume was something near six inches in thickness(Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, v3:9, March 1, 1842, 707.) They have been figured to be around 200lbs if gold.A block of solid tin measuring 7 x 8 x 6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If one allows for a 30 percent reduction due to the unevenness and space between the plates, the package would then weigh 52.27 pounds. Using the same calculations, plates of gold weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; a mixture of gold and copper, between 65 and 140 pounds. (Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 600) The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105).Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold platesDAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors?On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Sounds like a tough neighborhood. Joe must have been as full of grit as bad bad Leroy Brown. Kevin Deegan wrote: The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home. After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running (Lucy's Book, pp.385-386, Biographical Sketches, by Lucy Smith, pp.104-105). Amazing strength Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold plates DAVEH: I might add that it is my understanding that they had the appearance of gold. Whether or not the content was actually 100% gold is something that is debatable. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I think the twelve tribes did each have one of the zodiac signs as its symbol-- Joseph was Taurus (each horn of the bull representing one of his sons--Ephraim and Mannasseh), Dan was Scorpio, Judah was Leo, Reuben was Aquarius, etc., but a book I own says there are more than twelve different personalities possible as symbolized by the zodiac--it was almost an infinite number, due to the 360 degrees in the zodiac circle, multiplied by the twelve signs, multiplied by 144 different sun-moon combinations, multiplied by the positions of the planets in the zodiac and their combinations with the sun and the moon and, etc.etc. etc. The number was 10 to the 332nd power! This would come a little closer to accounting for each unique personality than any personality theory I am aware of. In a message dated 12/10/2005 11:37:21 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Looks like you and I were born just a few days apart, Blaine. So wouldn’t that mean we are pretty much identical? (Disturbing thought!!!) Gee, there must only be 12 different kinds of folks in the world; kinda like the twelve tribes of Israel, huh? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Judy you're just too fixed on a one bible only theme. You would enjoy your life more if you would loosen up on that point a bit, huh? The Book of Mormon is the word of God, and see what you are missing? Tell me your birthday, maybe I can psych out your problem . . . :) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
you dohave a certainquality of faith--how would you describe its characteristics? On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:22:17 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The Book of Mormon was translated to English from a set of gold plates by Joseph Smith Jr. The plateswere an abridgement of more extensive records by a Nephite named Mormon,and his son, Moroni. In a message dated 12/10/2005 9:19:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Blainerb: "and ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil," was actually the truth--the lie was that they would not die. Satan often pairs the truth with a lie so as to give the lie credibility--politicians often do the same thing, as do Street Preachers :)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE--Dave's clarifying explanation
Nice explication, Dave--I should have it printed off and give it out next time I teach a SS class-- Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 12:35:10 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. But... As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS authority said...As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become..which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression. In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows the difference between good and evil. By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their bodies of flesh and bloodby dying, which separates the spirit from the body. In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only did AE subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also were separated from God.which we define as spiritual death. In essence, this resulted in AE experiencing two forms of hellfirst the separation from God, and second being returned to the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation forever, if it were not for God's plan of salvation. That plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for AE's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, AE's in this instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why it is through his grace that we are saved...nothing we could do on our own could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us and God is ourselves. Effectively...We can either keep the commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal progression. I hope that answers your query, Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I can post an interesting perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an LDS Forum.just let me know if that appeals to you.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
"Ready and Able?" Yeah, I heard about them two. In a message dated 12/9/2005 5:55:41 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They had another brother called Ready[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Blainerb: It sounds good and true to me. Why are you even asking a question like that? In a message dated 12/9/2005 5:58:18 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kevin: Are you willing to BET your Life on this? They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Because your ETERNAL DESTINY depends on it![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: It sounds good and true to me. Why are you even asking a question like that?In a message dated 12/9/2005 5:58:18 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Kevin: Are you willing to BET your Life on this? They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE--Dave's clarifying explanation
DAVEH: Thanx Blaine. However, I am curious whether or not you disagree on any of the details, or if you would add anything to it? (And I am aware that there is much that could be added, however for the purposes of explaining the basic outline to Lance, I didn't think it would serve any purpose to get sidetracked on too many details.) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice explication, Dave--I should have it printed off and give it out next time I teach a SS class-- Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 12:35:10 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. But... As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS authority said... As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. .which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression. In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows the difference between good and evil. By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their bodies of flesh and bloodby dying, which separates the spirit from the body. In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only did AE subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also were separated from God.which we define as spiritual death. In essence, this resulted in AE experiencing two forms of hellfirst the separation from God, and second being returned to the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation forever, if it were not for God's plan of salvation. That plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for AE's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, AE's in this instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why it is through his grace that we are saved...nothing we could do on our own could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us and God is ourselves. Effectively...We can either keep the commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal progression. I hope that answers your query, Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I can post an interesting perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an LDS Forum.just let me
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Iheard that there was abook explaining how the earth is the center of the UniverseIt probably has as much truth as your book. If I give you chapter verse out of this book? so what!Are Anton Laveys books good for your "spiritual Enlightenment"? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse.In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I have it and have yet to figure out what it is excellent for I'd put it on the same level as "Dead Sea Scrolls" and "Dead Sea Scroll Bibles" On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
Those who have access to a TV set now at least have half a chance, but the rest are stillhopelessly doomed. Eternal security of the believer. Once you're saved, you're always saved--whether you like it or not. Since there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, there's nothing you can't do while not worrying about it. The possibilities are endless and don't require much thought. Have fun! And if anyone dares to refer to you as a "carnal Christian" because of your antics, justtell them that Christ died to pay the price for your sins, and you're just making sure that you get your money's worth. (If they still aren't convinced, they have probably been visited by Mormon missionaries so you are free to ignore anything they say.) And why is it that Protestants (Catholics too--don't mean to leave them out) think that Mormon theology is erroneous? I give up on that one. Well. . .in so far as any of this makes sense, you can thank Sandra Tanner. These ideas came to me after reading her contrast of the Mormon view of the Fall vs. the dyed-in-the-wool true believer version she subscribes to. And if none of it makes sense, let's just go ahead and blame. . .er, uh, I mean, "thank" Sandra anyway. I'm a big believer in giving credit where credit is due. ++ ++ ++ ++ There are a few things about this I found particularly interesting, and highlighted them, such as... "This business of obeying God isall very well and good, but I think I'd be better off if I sinned and then repented of it so I can go to heaven instead!" .and.. God knew exactly what would happen with Adam and Eve, andit was just what he had in mind all along. And if that's not the case, then you are required to believe things that are much more absurd than the "some sinless and some sinful" scenario described above. ...and... This includes all those who have never even heard of Christ, from 33 A. D. right up to the present. They also haven't been "born again" and they never will be. If that sounds harsh, just remember that it isn't God's fault that it took 20 centuries to invent television and theBenny Hinn Show. Those who have access to a TV set now at least have half a chance, but the rest are stillhopelessly doomed. I will be interested in hearing what you think about the above material, Lance. Lance Muir wrote: This IS the sort of thing I was looking for. YES I'd like for you to post the 'newer' material. thanks, Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 09, 2005 02:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. But... As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS authority said... As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. .which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression. In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows the difference between good and evil. By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the k
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
Just more speculation/ human logic. == Dave Hansen wrote: YES I'd like for you to post the 'newer' material DAVEH: I'm not fond of borrowing material from another forum to post in its entirety, but I find Court Watch's comments from another forum in which I lurk to be interesting to ponder, Lance ++ ++ ++ ++ Court Watch wrote: Subject: [Grace-to-you] To Sandra: This One's For You! If I understand it correctly, the Protestant view of what we call the "Fall" in the Garden of Eden need not have occurred. It was possible for Adam and Eve to always obey God and, if they had done so, the human race could havecontinued in a state of primal innocence. For the sake of argument, let's suppose that the first couple had remained obedient and sinless. All of their offspring would be born in the same condition, but each of them would alsothen face the choice of whether to obey God or not. (Presumably, Satan could have been very creative in thinking up various ways to put them to the test.) The odds are overwhelming that at least some of these offspring would fall into sin, although others might not. The sinfulones would then pass this fallen condition onto their children, who would become the inheritors of their parents' "original" sin and guilt. These people would stand in need of the redemption and atonement for sin later offered by Christ, and might become inclined to do all sorts of wicked things. But the ones descended from sinless parents, who also did not sin themselves, would not. They would have no need of salvation as long as they remained perfectly virtuous. If this could happen at all, I don't see why it couldn't go on indefinitely. The human race would then have two basic lines of development, but what a curious situation this would be. It's a safe bet that the twogroups would be in constant conflict with each other. When it finally came, the gospel message to the sinful group would be: "You need to repent and be saved." The message to the sinlessly perfectgroup would be: "Don't worry, you're fine just the way you are." Now, it's safe to assume that the sinful group might come tooutnumber the sinless group, if only by virtue of their ability to procreate more naturallysinful people. On the other hand, the sinless folks would go on living forever on earth since they would not be subject to physical death. That sounds nice at first, but at least some of the sinful people would probably repent and be saved, so that whiletheir death was inevitable, so too was the possibility that they would go to heavenly glory upon dying. Who would then be better off--the perfect people or the saved sinners? Which is better, a permanent existence on earth, or eternity in a heavenly state? Once word got out that forgiven sinners could go to a higher plane of existence and remain there forever, wouldn'tthe perfect people be inclined to say:"This business of obeying God isall very well and good, but I think I'd be better off if I sinned and then repented of it so I can go to heaven instead!" If that all sounds far fetched, that's only because it is--butthen, so is much of what passes for "Christian" theology about original sin. In light of the above considerations, why is the LDS view of a "necessary" Fall (and one that didn't take God by surprise) so outrageous? God knew exactly what would happen with Adam and Eve, andit was just what he had in mind all along. And if that's not the case, then you are required to believe things that are much more absurd than the "some sinless and some sinful" scenario described above. Things like: Unbaptized infants spend eternity in hell. St. Augustine certainly believed it, and he's the hero of Catholics and Calvinists alike. After all, if original sin and guilt are inherited, why should babies get a free pass? And if we think they're innocent, maybe that's only because we're guilty ourselves. God's justice is infinite, and so is his wrath. If the tykes haven't been "born again" they're out of luck. Some people have been predestined to be saved, while others have been predestined by God to spend eternity in hell, and there is absolutely nothing that anyone can do about it. Whynot? Because God is sovereign and that's the way he wants it. Case closed. If you're smart, you'll at least pretend to be sure that you're predestined to be one of the saved--and hope you're right. (Hint: vilifying Mormons is regarded as a sure sign that you're saved, so do it as often as possible.) The vast majority of the human race will spend eternity in hell anyway, because they never made a decision for Christ. This includes all those who have never even heard of Christ, from 33 A. D. right up to the present. They also haven't been "born again" and they never will be. If that sounds harsh, just remember that it isn't
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
In a message dated 12/9/2005 8:15:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The lie that Satan perpetrated in the garden of Eden to deceive Eve is still alive today in some cults..."and ye shall be as gods".Perry Blainerb: "and ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil," was actually the truth--the lie was that they would not die. Satan often pairs the truth with a lie so as to give the lie credibility--politicians often do the same thing, as do Street Preachers :)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
That's interesting Lance!! If I do not soon find my copy I may buy another from you? It is an excellent book!! Blainerb In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:17:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:24:09 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iheard that there was abook explaining how the earth is the center of the UniverseIt probably has as much truth as your book. If I give you chapter verse out of this book? so what! Are Anton Laveys books good for your "spiritual Enlightenment"? Who's he? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Judy you're just too fixed on a one bible only theme. You would enjoy your life more if you would loosen up on that point a bit, huh? The Book of Mormon is the word of God, and see what you are missing? Tell me your birthday, maybe I can psych out your problem . . . :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:41:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have it and have yet to figure out what it is excellent for I'd put it on the same level as "Dead Sea Scrolls" and "Dead Sea Scroll Bibles" On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
who are its authors? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:49:39 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: .. The Book of Mormon is the word of God ||
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Looks like you and I were born just a few days apart, Blaine. So wouldnt that mean we are pretty much identical? (Disturbing thought!!!) Gee, there must only be 12 different kinds of folks in the world; kinda like the twelve tribes of Israel, huh? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:50 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Judy you're just too fixed on a one bible only theme. You would enjoy your life more if you would loosen up on that point a bit, huh? The Book of Mormon is the word of God, and see what you are missing? Tell me your birthday, maybe I can psych out your problem . . . :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/10/2005 12:41:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have it and have yet to figure out what it is excellent for I'd put it on the same level as Dead Sea Scrolls and Dead Sea Scroll Bibles On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Lance, post a link to your bookstore so we can check out your wares. From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:17:04 -0500 I SELL this book. It's excellent! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 10, 2005 13:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE As you should know by now, I do not believe the Bible to be the only source of spiritual enlightenment! :) I have a book titled Lost Books of the Bible, in which there are accounts that are written as being true, but were not accepted by those who made the final decisions of what should and what should not be included in the holy writ. I tried to find it--must still be buried with stuff from when I moved--if I find it I will give you chapter and verse. In the account it actually gives the sister's name, and describes her as being very beautiful. Blainerb In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:00:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was removed, at least. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who are born through procreation are created in the "image" of the first Adam. They were here first already and the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. to say they were walking in death right then is pure unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them in death? On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous... Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:45:44 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: being over protective through fear is one thingDAVEH: That seems to be a tactic of some Christians. For instance, the whole commonly believed scenario about hell being a literal punitive torturous form of punishment is an example that I see driving some people away from Christianity. I'm sure there will be some SPers who will point to their successes by using such methodology, but that does not necessarily offset the numbers of those who are turned off by such rhetoric. They may be turned off at that moment but who knows whether or not a seed has been planted that God will water at a later date? That was John the Baptists ministry ie "the axe will be layed to the root of the tree of those who do not repent"This is what the wisdom of the world teaches.DAVEH: Have you ever read of some of the examples where groups of people were decimated by diseases brought into their environment by outsiders? Yes and usually these groups were already compromised by sin. The American indians were pagan god worshippers and the Australian aborigines were animists leaving both wide open.God has given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that comes our wayDAVEH: I tend to agree with you on this to a point, Judy. Though I don't view it as an immune system, but rather as inoculation. We aren't born with a resistance to sin, but we achieve it as we become one with the Lord. I think it was Paul who explained the analogy of putting on the armor of God. We aren't born with that armor, but acquire it as we grow in Christ. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from.DAVEH: Then why do you think God kept AE from partaking of it after they transgressed? Because they would have lived forever in their fallen and demonized state and He will not haveany devils in heaven; but he did make for them a way of escape planned before the foundation of the world.The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic.DAVEH:: You've lost me on that one, Judy. Are you saying the tree of knowledge of good and evil is earthly, sensual, and demonic? If so, it sounds like you are implying that God planted something evil in the Garden of Eden in an effort to tempt AE. If that is what you are suggesting, do you have Biblical evidence to support your theory? I am saying He allowed it -to test their faith and they bit. It came in the form of the serpent who spoke to Eve He was full of wisdom from the other tree. In the gospels you will remember the parable of the sower who sows the good seed which is God's Word (Jesus explains) and the enemy who sows another word making tares which will be separated from the wheat in the last day. Same idea. FWIWI had the impression that Gen 1 suggests exactly the opposite12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good..That the trees God created were good. Reading Gen 2.. We are not talking about "fruit" trees here DaveH; in the garden there are two trees that have to do with different kinds of knowledge or wisdom.[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evildoes not give me the impression that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was in itself evil. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why you think such. Because Jesus says that nothing that goes into the mouth is of itself evil - it just goes in and comes out in the draught. It is what comes out of the heart that defiles the man - and these two trees had that kind of power.Judy Taylor wrote: DaveH writes: FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. Not necessarily; being over protective through fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful eye on their side. I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:04:35 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: It is not that I disagree with what you said below, Judy.But, I think you've gone off topic. We are discussing AE's transgression, not our own. As soon as they were cast out of the Garden for their transgression, I think they pretty well knew they had no grounds to accuse Him of beingunloving or unjust. To think that God put them through that test just to prove to them the consequences of disobedience seems a little illogical to me, Judy. How is it illogical? When you being evil tell your child if you do that I will spank you. When they do it and you spank them - why is warning them illogical?Just jumping on them out of the blue would be illogical to me. Ponder that God foreordained Jesus to be AE's Savior even before AE were created. He then created a universe just for AE, and then a planet with all the goodies to keep AE alive, and then a Garden full of everything they would need to live forever in a very pure and comfortable environment. Then God plants one evil tree (from your perspective) and turns Satan loose in paradise to have a go at tempting AE just to test AE in an effort to prove to AE that they will not have grounds toaccuse Him of beingunloving or unjust. Whew!!!.To me that sure seems like a lot of effort for minimal return, Judy. Makes sense to me DaveH but then I accept God's Word, I don't try to second guess him or figure out a better way to do things. It is written already and sealed in heaven so to me allspeculation is a big waste of time and does not lead to peace and rest.. Please don't think that I am trying to minimize the import of this topicnothing could be further from the truth. To me, understanding the circumstances of the Fall is extremely important. It just seems from my perspective that the commonly believed Christian perspective regarding the Fall doesn't really explain why it happened, which is why I find it interesting to learn what you believe about it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Let me get this straight - you are saying that the Christians have all been deceived about why the fall happened and you Mormons are the only ones who know the facts of the matter?? Am I hearing correctly??Judy Taylor wrote: When all of us stand before God at the great white throne judgment... we have to know where we failed. Noone will have grounds toaccuse Him of beingunloving or unjust because we will have condemned ourselves and we will know thiswithout anyone having to tell us... So the test is for us rather than for Him. judyt On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:36:28 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To test them DaveHDAVEH: ??? Do you not think God knew their faith, Judy? Why do you think God would need to test them, since he created themknowing they would transgress?Judy Taylor wrote: To test them DaveH. Faith is ALWAYS tested. On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:24:10 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He did not plan for them to fall.DAVEH: If that is so, then why do you think he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden, Terry? Rather than go to all the trouble of preparing a remedy for the fall, would it have not been immensely easier to simply not have put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? IOWthere must have been a reason for God to put the tree there. Seems like it would be important to understand for what the purpose the Lord placed that tree there. Why do you think, Terry?Terry Clifton wrote: This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept.God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error.=Dave Hansen wrote: He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then.DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the AE situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I think probably, John, that all humanity had to have come through Adam and Eve. This does not mean that Cain and then Abel had tohave beentheir first children (I guess), but in order for Christ to be the go'el or Kinsmen Redeemer of mankind,there has to have been a common ancestry, i.e., a common bloodline. That is the significance of Luke taking Jesus' genealogy all the way back to Adam: Christ therefore as the Second Man was qualified to represent everyone represented by the first man. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous.. Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Agreed. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous... Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
What is the evidence? On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:20:21 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jdFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous... Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . ." Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 2:14 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who are born through procreation are created in the "image" of the first Adam. They were here first already and the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. to say they were walking in death right then is pure unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them in death? On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous... Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? Why would a God of life in whom there is no darkness or shadow of turning create a dying people? AE chose death in disobedience. On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:33:36 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . ." Bill From: Judy Taylor JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who are born through procreation are created in the "image" of the first Adam. They were here first already and the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. to say they were walking in death right then is pure unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them in death? On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous... Is t
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. Why would a God of life in whom there is no darkness or shadow of turning create a dying people? He did not create a "dying people." What is the meaning of the word "mortal"? It is"subject to death, or destined to die?" We who are procreated are born mortal because of the first Adam's disobedience. He fell from something Bill. So from whence did he fall? From mortal to mortal? AE chose death by their disobedience. Adam and Eve chose disobedience, death being the consequence of their actions: "The wages of sin is death ... " Exactly - and if they were mortal already, that is, if God created them mortal then He chose it for them before they got the chance to disobey. jt On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:33:36 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . ." Bill From: Judy Taylor JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who are born through procreation are created in the "image" of the first Adam. They were here first already and the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. to say they were walking in death right then is pure unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them in death? On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, no
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Hmmm, bad water gets blamed for a lot. My neighbor's dog drank some ethylene glycol anti-freeze off my garage floor and died within 36 hours. Went into a coma. Tch tch. That will teach him to use my lawn for a pooping ground, huh? Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:30:53 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Probably something in the water.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden?
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
They had another brother called Ready[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own peoplejd Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Are you willing to BET your Life on this? They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jdThey did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
This IS the sort of thing I was looking for. YES I'd like for you to post the 'newer' material. thanks, Lance - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 09, 2005 02:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. But... As you must know, I believe God created us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS authority said...As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become..which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal progression. In order that the spirit beings in the pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows the difference between good and evil. By placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their bodies of flesh and bloodby dying, which separates the spirit from the body. In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only did AE subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also were separated from God.which we define as spiritual death. In essence, this resulted in AE experiencing two forms of hellfirst the separation from God, and second being returned to the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation forever, if it were not for God's plan of salvation. That plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for AE's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, AE's in this instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why it is through his grace that we are saved...nothing we could do on our own could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us and God is ourselves. Effectively...We can either keep the commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal progression. I hope that answers your query, Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I can post an interesting perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an LDS Forum.just let me know if that appeals to you.Lance Muir wrote: PLEASE DAVE, I would appreciate the longer explanation so as not to confuse those less
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created "like us" which is mortal and the word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary definition. They were created "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. JD said created "like us" in which case they would be a "dying people" As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. The above is a little different from what JD stated ... How about the potential to fall as Lucifer did. Angels are spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are also created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man is either being renewed or beingentrenched in even more darkness daily. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Yeah! Innocence turned to lust and caring and love turned into pride, selfishness, and shame. On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:52:03 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
So, Adam and Eve were having children while ithe garden .A possiblility. jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:41:09 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
But why would we assume tht the "cahnge" was anything other than a conscieousness of good and evil in association with the violation of law? Why does this "change" include their mortality? I see no reason for this. jjd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:52:03 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Bill speaks of 'AW'?? Hm...Freudian slip? Bill's favourite FF place? A hidden agenda? Good root beer? (as close as Bill gets to 'beer'?) We had all best ponder this encrypted message from our vaunted theologian! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 09, 2005 09:13 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I love it. Judy interprets John !!! If this is an example of your "spirit discernment," you have a long long way to go. In the account of A E, they are mortal beings just like you and I with two exceptions in terms of circumstance: they had the Tree of Life and continued access to that tree was the only stated reason for their dismissal from the garden, and , they had not yet violated the expressly stated will of God. The EFFECT of the fall presents the reader with consequences that are much more involved than we might have expected -- at least for me. "In the image of God" is not a reference to the essence of God's existence. Holy and eternal are but two considerations of God. He is omnipresent. He is all wise and has all knowledge. He is all powerful. He is a triune being. Give us a rule of some sort, a path of season, for accepting two of His qualities and not the others. The fact of the matter is this - I believe that I can come closer to a biblical consideration for saying the "image" is the need for community than you can for "holy and eternal" jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:09:18 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created "like us" which is mortal and the word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary definition. They were created "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. JD said created "like us" in which case they would be a "dying people" As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. The above is a little different from what JD stated ... How about the potential to fall as Lucifer did. Angels are spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are also created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man is either being renewed or beingentrenched in even more darkness daily. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Why? The apostle Paul is good enough for me - He used "great plainness of speech" with no hidden agendas. Nothing was done in a corner. On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:21:34 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bill speaks of 'AW'?? Hm...Freudian slip? Bill's favourite FF place? A hidden agenda? Good root beer? (as close as Bill gets to 'beer'?) We had all best ponder this encrypted message from our vaunted theologian! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Think "Tree of Life" for starters.-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 06:23:29 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE What is the evidence? On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:20:21 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jdFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
JUDY:Did you see that this was an attempt at humour? Please say that you did. You do laugh do you not? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 09, 2005 09:29 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Why? The apostle Paul is good enough for me - He used "great plainness of speech" with no hidden agendas. Nothing was done in a corner. On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:21:34 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bill speaks of 'AW'?? Hm...Freudian slip? Bill's favourite FF place? A hidden agenda? Good root beer? (as close as Bill gets to 'beer'?) We had all best ponder this encrypted message from our vaunted theologian! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:33:15 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I love it. Judy interprets John !!! If this is an example of your "spirit discernment," you have a long long way to go. Correction! Judy has no interest in interpreting John. Judy reads and understands scripture. In the account of A E, they are mortal beings just like you and I with two exceptions in terms of circumstance: they had the Tree of Life and continued access to that tree was the only stated reason for their dismissal from the garden, and , they had not yet violated the expressly stated will of God. Then why the warning that if they ate of the wrong tree they would die if they were already mortal (like us) temporal ie passing away? God said they would die, Satan said they wouldn't The EFFECT of the fall presents the reader with consequences that are much more involved than we might have expected -- at least for me. Maybe you are making it a figment of your own imagination JD. If they were like us they would have no place to fall to. "In the image of God" is not a reference to the essence of God's existence. Holy and eternal are but two considerations of God. He is omnipresent. He is all wise and has all knowledge. He is all powerful. He is a triune being. Image and likeness does not make themCreator rather than Created; but they would have his nature and character and would be spirit beingswith a flesh body just as He is a Spirit. Give us a rule of some sort, a path of season, for accepting two of His qualities and not the others. The fact of the matter is this - I believe that I can come closer to a biblical consideration for saying the "image" is the need for community than you can for "holy and eternal" jd Oh I know JD - here we go again with the "procession and the perichoresis - and the trinity all dancing with each other" Some things never change. From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes: From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life? More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction. No strawman here Bill. When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created "like us" which is mortal and the word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary definition. They were created "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. JD said created "like us" in which case they would be a "dying people" As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. The above is a little different from what JD stated ... How about the potential to fall as Lucifer did. Angels are spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are also created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man is either being renewed or beingentrenched in even more darkness daily. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss. Bill judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I have to get to the shop. But , quickly, ( you are probably already on the road to work, as well) , it seems to me that man(kind) is first created and then, Adam (as it turns out) is placed into the garden (2:7,8). I would tie 1:26-28 to verse 7 and treat Adam and Eve as a second story. Eve was created in the garden. I think the story of Adam and Eve is the account of the first of the chosen people of God (the Jews). So, I guess I would have to say that only A E had access to the Tree of Life. My conversation with Blaine is somewhat deceiving. I do believe that Adam and Eve could have been having children while in the garden - but I also believe that God madea good number of humans ... Adam and Eve being the first of the chosen. Goofy? jd -Original Message-From: Taylor wmtaylor@plains.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:47:39 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Oh and, hey John, this brings me to a second thought. You said that perhaps God had created other peoples as well as AE. Were they eating also from the tree of life in the garden at the time of Adam's banishment? They had been created mortal as well, right? They would have needed the same sustenance: is thatcorrect? And if so, why must they have been banished with him? Had they also transgressed? Bill - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . ." Bill - Original
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
My 2c worth: I have always though of Adam and Eve as created mortal, and that that perhaps the eventual plan (before the fall) was for them to partake of the Tree of Life and become immortal. What would have happened if they had partaken of the Tree of Life after sinning and while in the fallen state? Perhaps they would have eternally been in a fallen state...literally unredeemable. Most likely they were have been banished from the garden as an act of mercy to protect them from partaking of the tree of life in the fallen state. Then, through God's redemptve plan, they could still gain immortality. Imagine if we all were immortal, and lived eternally in a fallen state. I do not buy for one moment that god EVER wanted AE to sin. He created them with free will ( a necessary trait to give love any real meaning). Eve was beguiled by Satan and chose to sin. Did He know they would sin? Probably. Did he want them to, or design it so they would? No. Did God have a redemptive plan ready, should they choose to sin? Definitely. Had satan chosen not to decieve Eve, or had she chosen not to sin, would things have been different? Definitely. The lie that Satan perpetrated in the garden of Eden to deceive Eve is still alive today in some cults...and ye shall be as gods. Perry From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:11:18 -0500 But why would we assume tht the cahnge was anything other than a conscieousness of good and evil in association with the violation of law? Why does this change include their mortality? I see no reason for this. jjd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:52:03 EST Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created mortal, hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time as being desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :) Satan assured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
those who are turned off by such rhetoric.They are already "TURNED OFF" What will happen to them are you afraid we will "TURN THEM" into HELL NUMBER TWO?Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:45:44 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:being over protective through fear is one thingDAVEH: That seems to be a tactic of some Christians. For instance, the whole commonly believed scenario about hell being a literal punitive torturous form of punishment is an example that I see driving some people away from Christianity. I'm sure there will be some SPers who will point to their successes by using such methodology, but that does not necessarily offset the numbers of those who are turned off by such rhetoric.They may be turned off at that moment but who knows whether or not a seed has been planted that God will water at a later date? That was John the Baptists ministry ie "the axe will be layed to the root of the tree of those who do not repent"This is what the wisdom of the world teaches.DAVEH: Have you ever read of some of the examples where groups of people were decimated by diseases brought into their environment by outsiders? Yes and usually these groups were already compromised by sin. The American indians were pagan god worshippers and the Australian aborigines were animists leaving both wide open.God has given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that comes our wayDAVEH: I tend to agree with you on this to a point, Judy. Though I don't view it as an immune system, but rather as inoculation. We aren't born with a resistance to sin, but we achieve it as we become one with the Lord. I think it was Paul who explained the analogy of putting on the armor of God. We aren't born with that armor, but acquire it as we grow in Christ. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from.DAVEH: Then why do you think God kept AE from partaking of it after they transgressed?Because they would have lived forever in their fallen and demonized state and He will not haveany devils in heaven; but he did make for them a way of escape planned before the foundation of the world.The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic.DAVEH:: You've lost me on that one, Judy. Are you saying the tree of knowledge of good and evil is earthly, sensual, and demonic? If so, it sounds like you are implying that God planted something evil in the Garden of Eden in an effort to tempt AE. If that is what you are suggesting, do you have Biblical evidence to support your theory? I am saying He allowed it -to test their faith and they bit. It came in the form of the serpent who spoke to Eve He was full of wisdom from the other tree. In the gospels you will remember the parable of the sower who sows the good seed which is God's Word (Jesus explains) and the enemy who sows another word making tares which will be separated from the wheat in the last day. Same idea. FWIW.I had the impression that Gen 1 suggests exactly the opposite12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good..That the trees God created were good. Reading Gen 2..We are not talking about "fruit" trees here DaveH; in the garden there are two trees that have to do with different kinds of knowledge or wisdom.[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evildoes not give me the impression that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was in itself evil. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why you think such. Because Jesus says that nothing that goes into the mouth is of itself evil - it just goes in and comes out in the draught. It is what comes out of the heart that defiles the man - and these two trees had that kind of power.Judy Taylor wrote: DaveH writes: FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. Not necessarily; being over protective through fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful eye on their side.I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the ravages in the strength of his youth than allow such
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Here is the REAL intent of the LDS question on questionable surmisings about which the Bible is silent! They sit back ENJOY the FIREWORKS![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love it. Judy interprets John !!! If this is an example of your "spirit discernment," you have a long long way to go. In the account of A E, they are mortal beings just like you and I with two exceptions in terms of circumstance: they had the Tree of Life and continued access to that tree was the only stated reason for their dismissal from the garden, and , they had not yet violated the expressly stated will of God. The EFFECT of the fall presents the reader with consequences that are much more involved than we might have expected -- at least for me. "In the image of God" is not a reference to the essence of God's existence. Holy and eternal are but two considerations of God. He is omnipresent. He is all wise and has all knowledge. He is all powerful. He is a triune being. Give us a rule of some sort, a path of season, for accepting two of His qualities and not the others. The fact of the matter is this - I believe that I can come closer to a biblical consideration for saying the "image" is the need for community than you can for "holy and eternal" jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:09:18 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEOn Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes:From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life?More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction.No strawman here Bill.When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman.If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created "like us" which is mortal and the word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary definition. They were created "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. JD said created "like us" in which case they would be a "dying people"As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. The above is a little different from what JD stated ... How about the potential to fall as Lucifer did. Angels are spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are also created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man is either being renewed or beingentrenched in even more darkness daily.If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss.Bill judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Must be it ALL revolves around SEX Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine do you read the Bible? It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least. In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own peoplejd Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shoppingjudyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Interesting thought, jd. Not likely, but interesting. Maybe the other people were Neanderthals? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:10 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE I have to get to the shop. But , quickly, ( you are probably already on the road to work, as well) , it seems to me that man(kind) is first created and then, Adam (as it turns out) is placed into the garden (2:7,8). I would tie 1:26-28 to verse 7 and treat Adam and Eve as a second story. Eve was created in the garden. I think the story of Adam and Eve is the account of the first of the chosen people of God (the Jews). So, I guess I would have to say that only A E had access to the Tree of Life. My conversation with Blaine is somewhat deceiving. I do believe that Adam and Eve could have been having children while in the garden - but I also believe that God madea good number of humans ... Adam and Eve being the first of the chosen. Goofy? jd -Original Message- From: Taylor wmtaylor@plains.net To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:47:39 -0700 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Oh and, hey John, this brings me to a second thought. You said that perhaps God had created other peoples as well as AE. Were they eating also from the tree of life in the garden at the time of Adam's banishment? They had been created mortal as well, right? They would have needed the same sustenance: is thatcorrect? And if so, why must they have been banished with him? Had they also transgressed? Bill - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: 'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . . Bill - Original
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
No -- "nave"l in their day referred only to an orange. jd-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:54:06 -0800Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Did they have navels like we have?From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEDate: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden.jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: R e: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AESo Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion. If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own peoplejd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEIn a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beingsI hate to tell you this B but the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT!Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows:"And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Blainerb: Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden?In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I wasn't there Blain e. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :)BlainerbIn a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self would even be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. But they would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous.. Is that what you think the Lord really wanted?In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:The trees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judytHe that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandment s is a liar (1 John 2:4)--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Questions (and admittedly, I am more of a novice on this point of doctrine than most): 1. At what point in Luke's genealogy does the list cease to be Jewish? 2. If redemption of the world is through the Chosen People of God and Christ, for a number of reasons, was the embodiment of the Chosen - it seems to my way of thinking that this reasoning would support the idea that the People of God (Jews) were never anything other than the Chosen and that would include Adam and Eve. 3. so, I guess I would be saying that Christ's lineage includes all of the Chosen through Adam to God - and that Christ is tied to the rest of the creation (all of mankind) as the Creator.He is the common tie, not the blood line.It is in Him that Jew and Gentile, male and female vanish. 4. Biblical considerations include this thought: I believe that the "mystery" of the gospel is identified as the inclusion of all of mankind - that this was hidden from the Chosen until revealed in Christ. It seems to me that Mark 4:11 ff has Christ speaking ofthe salvation of all( in several parables) - not just the salvation of the Jew AND the blindness of the Jew to this notion with Romans 11:25 making this commentary specific and, even, irresistible reaffirmed in Ro 16:25-26 and, again in Eph 3:4-6. Such a belief finds you and I accepting the same premise - Christ dying for the world , as a representative of mankind ( as the Creator - jd) and , at the same time, fulfilling this purpose as the Israel of God [hence his blood line through Adam to God (as God) ] Your friend, John If I am wrong on this, I really need someone (esp Bill) to hang in there with me, let me make my points, and deal with my argumentation empathetically. I can handle being disagreed by friends. So -- sock it to me !! -Original Message-From: Taylor wmtaylor@plains.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:19:48 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE I think probably, John, that all humanity had to have come through Adam and Eve. This does not mean that Cain and then Abel had tohave beentheir first children (I guess), but in order for Christ to be the go'el or Kinsmen Redeemer of mankind,there has to have been a common ancestry, i.e., a common bloodline. That is the significance of Luke taking Jesus' genealogy all the way back to Adam: Christ therefore as the Second Man was qualified to represent everyone represented by the first man. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT! Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord." Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden? In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
When all of us stand before God at the great white throne judgment... we have to know where we failed. Noone will have grounds toaccuse Him of beingunloving or unjust because we will have condemned ourselves and we will know thiswithout anyone having to tell us... So the test is for us rather than for Him. judyt On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:36:28 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To test them DaveHDAVEH: ??? Do you not think God knew their faith, Judy? Why do you think God would need to test them, since he created themknowing they would transgress?Judy Taylor wrote: To test them DaveH. Faith is ALWAYS tested. On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:24:10 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He did not plan for them to fall.DAVEH: If that is so, then why do you think he placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden, Terry? Rather than go to all the trouble of preparing a remedy for the fall, would it have not been immensely easier to simply not have put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? IOWthere must have been a reason for God to put the tree there. Seems like it would be important to understand for what the purpose the Lord placed that tree there. Why do you think, Terry?Terry Clifton wrote: This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept.God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error.=Dave Hansen wrote: He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then.DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the AE situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said AE screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again. I must be missing something about your (forgive mebut let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If AE had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of AE's children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from AE, none would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that happening.zilch?!?!?! Sowhy do most Christians blame AE for the misery in the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspectivenot only was it expected, but it was planned. And...evidently you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was created.that it was planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I saidperhaps I'm missing something about the way you understand it. Judy wrote:I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us?Terry Clifton wrote: God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that monkeys and horses do not have a soul. == Dave Hansen wrote: He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference. DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I will admit to being biased by my belief that He did plan for them to fall. As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is safe to speculate that some (if not most) of AE's descendants would have transgressed. Look at AEit didn't take them too long to transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other villains of history would have remained angels? I submit to you that there would proportionally be very few who would not have transgressed. Consider another example. Adults have preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid smoking, alcohol, sex and drugs. Just denying them such, entices many it seems. Sowould you reasonably expect any but a few of AE's descendants to withstand the temptations that Eve failed to avoid? Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys, horses or whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the forbidden fruit have had IFF AE hadn't? Terry Clifton wrote: This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept. God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference. As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error. = Dave Hansen wrote: He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the AE situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said AE screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again. I must be missing something about your (forgive mebut let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If AE had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of AE's children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from AE, none would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that happening.zilch?!?!?! Sowhy do most Christians blame AE for the misery in the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspectivenot only was it expected, but it was planned. And...evidently you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was created.that it was planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I saidperhaps I'm missing something about the way you understand it. Judy wrote: I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us? Terry Clifton wrote: God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring pain and death. Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? Dave Hansen wrote: DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective, Terry.I assume you believe that God did not want AE to sin though, even though he
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
I truly wish you could see this ,Dave, because it is important to our understanding. The tree was there for a reason. God could have programmed every creature to behave exactly as He wanted them to, but He did not. He even gave angels a choice. He wants us to come to Him out of love, just as He comes to us out of love. To do that, we must make a choice. We CHOOSE to love Him. We show that love by living to please Him. We show our SELFishness by doing what we want to do. We do not need to disobey to be stronger. We need to obey, for our own good. You do not keep your wife in a bubble, but you also do not tell your wife to go out and play around with drugs or catch aids so that she can be more resistant to these things. ( I use your wife here because I do not know if you have children or other family. ) Dave Hansen wrote: God's desire was for them to remain pure and innocent, just as would be the desire of any father for his children. DAVEH: I probably shouldn't intrude on Blaine's discussion with you, Terry. But, it seems to me that God could easily have kept AE pure and innocent, had he wanted to do so. For instance, he could either have kept Satan out of the Garden of Eden, or he could have not placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil there. Orhe could simply have not commanded them not to partake. But he didn't do any of those things. IMO, God wanted AE to transgress for a reason. FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the ravages in the strength of his youth than allow such illnesses to eventually attack later in life when one is perhaps more vulnerable? I see that somewhat as an analogy to the tree knowledge of good and evil. I hope that makes a little sense, Terry. (Though I'm sure some TTers will take exception.) FTRI don't think that is the sole reason for the tree though. It is obvious that God did not expect his creations to remain pure and innocent, and he knew that they would not remain so in the situation he placed them. But it was necessary for them to go through that process for a specific reason, as I don't believe God was just wishfully hoping they would remain pure and innocent. I do appreciate you sharing your belief about it though, Terry. Terry Clifton wrote: God's desire was for them to remain pure and innocent, just as would be the desire of any father for his children. The tree was there to give them a choice. We always have a choice to make. If eating the fruit of that tree gave you the ability to know good from evil, what else would you call it? == [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/5/2005 6:15:11 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin. Fact two: God hates sin. Fact three: Getting people to sin is the top priority of Satan. It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss. Blainerb: If it is all so cut and dried, then answer this question: Why was the sinful fruit hanging on a tree called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? And, another question--why would God not want them to partake of the fruit of that tree? -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
monkeys and horses do not have a soul. DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim, Terry? What Biblical evidence supports that theory? Terry Clifton wrote: I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that monkeys and horses do not have a soul. == Dave Hansen wrote: He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference. DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I will admit to being biased by my belief that He did plan for them to fall. As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is safe to speculate that some (if not most) of AE's descendants would have transgressed. Look at AEit didn't take them too long to transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other villains of history would have remained angels? I submit to you that there would proportionally be very few who would not have transgressed. Consider another example. Adults have preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid smoking, alcohol, sex and drugs. Just denying them such, entices many it seems. Sowould you reasonably expect any but a few of AE's descendants to withstand the temptations that Eve failed to avoid? Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys, horses or whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the forbidden fruit have had IFF AE hadn't? Terry Clifton wrote: This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept. God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference. As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error. = Dave Hansen wrote: He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the AE situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said AE screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again. I must be missing something about your (forgive mebut let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If AE had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of AE's children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from AE, none would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that happening.zilch?!?!?! Sowhy do most Christians blame AE for the misery in the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspectivenot only was it expected, but it was planned. And...evidently you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was created.that it was planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I saidperhaps I'm missing something about the way you understand it. Judy wrote: I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us? Terry Clifton wrote: God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring pain and death. Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation,
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. NONSENSE That is like saying a gardner who overprotects his PRIZE flowers from weeds and pests will end up with flowers that are acutely susceptible to it! Prize Flowers are to be handled with care preferably in a safe environment like a greenhouse. Allowing access to your children to those things that would mean to do them harm is a foolish philosophyhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10336018/from/RSS/http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/graham/051127 The Next Generation of LeadershipThe most important people are the ones that history glosses over and such is the case with Home Schooling families. The presence of kids who were Homeschooled in the 1980s and '90s is beginning to be felt more and more in our cultural life. Dr. Brien Ray did a fascinating study on homeschoolers and found that 73% of homeschoolers 18-24 vote compared to 29% of all people their age. The voting percentage goes up to 95% for people above age 25 and they're three times more likely than their fellow citizens to give political contributions. 74% of homeschoolers have taken college courses, compared to only 46% of the general population. Ironically, homeschoolers who were predicted to be social misfits, are more active and involved in their community's politics than the general population.Parents who chose to make extraordinary sacrifices to ensure their children aren't led astray by the dominant culture are getting extraordinary results as 94% of homeschoolers are holding to their parents religious beliefs.The Homeschooled kids of the '90s will be the leaders of the next century because of hard work, sacrifice, and loving families. I was homeschooled, but am hardly the best or brightest of the bunch. I never thought about it much as a kid, but having been around both homeschooled and public school kids as an adult, I'm struck by the general courtesy, kindness, and advance vocabulary of homeschooled kids. They're a shining beacon of hope in this present darkness, and a reminder of God's abiding faithfulness. And the nay sayers said "O NO how are they going to learn to Socialize?" Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DaveH writes: FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. Not necessarily; being over protective through fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful eye on their side.I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the ravages in the strength of his youth than allow such illnesses to eventually attack later in life when one is perhaps more vulnerable?This is what the wisdom of the world teaches. But we are fearfully and wonderfully made and God has given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that comes our way when not compromised by sin.I see that somewhat as an analogy to the tree knowledge of good and evil. I hope that makes a little sense, Terry. (Though I'm sure some TTers will take exception.) FTRI don't think that is the sole reason for the tree though.Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Im so glad my grandchildren are being homeschooledthey are brighter, more socially adept (AND prettier) than the average child!!! J iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:38 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. NONSENSE That is like saying a gardner who overprotects his PRIZE flowers from weeds and pests will end up with flowers that are acutely susceptible to it! Prize Flowers are to be handled with care preferably in a safe environment like a greenhouse. Allowing access to your children to those things that would mean to do them harm is a foolish philosophy http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10336018/from/RSS/ http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/graham/051127 The Next Generation of Leadership The most important people are the ones that history glosses over and such is the case with Home Schooling families. The presence of kids who were Homeschooled in the 1980s and '90s is beginning to be felt more and more in our cultural life. Dr. Brien Ray did a fascinating study on homeschoolers and found that 73% of homeschoolers 18-24 vote compared to 29% of all people their age. The voting percentage goes up to 95% for people above age 25 and they're three times more likely than their fellow citizens to give political contributions. 74% of homeschoolers have taken college courses, compared to only 46% of the general population. Ironically, homeschoolers who were predicted to be social misfits, are more active and involved in their community's politics than the general population. Parents who chose to make extraordinary sacrifices to ensure their children aren't led astray by the dominant culture are getting extraordinary results as 94% of homeschoolers are holding to their parents religious beliefs. The Homeschooled kids of the '90s will be the leaders of the next century because of hard work, sacrifice, and loving families. I was homeschooled, but am hardly the best or brightest of the bunch. I never thought about it much as a kid, but having been around both homeschooled and public school kids as an adult, I'm struck by the general courtesy, kindness, and advance vocabulary of homeschooled kids. They're a shining beacon of hope in this present darkness, and a reminder of God's abiding faithfulness. And the nay sayers said O NO how are they going to learn to Socialize?
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Actually, my youngest daughter (22 years old) has told me why she has decided to NOT hoime school her children .. and itis for much of the same reason as seen in the opening line below. She told me thateach of the eight friends she had at Fresno Pacific U (who were all home schooled) hada very difficult time getting along with those in the school or "fitting in." My oldest daughter (38 years old) home schools up to junior high age for the same reason. jd -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:38:21 -0800 (PST)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. NONSENSE That is like saying a gardner who overprotects his PRIZE flowers from weeds and pests will end up with flowers that are acutely susceptible to it! Prize Flowers are to be handled with care preferably in a safe environment like a greenhouse. Allowing access to your children to those things that would mean to do them harm is a foolish philosophy http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10336018/from/RSS/ http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/graham/051127 The Next Generation of LeadershipThe most important people are the ones that history glosses over and such is the case with Home Schooling families. The presence of kids who were Homeschooled in the 1980s and '90s is beginning to be felt more and more in our cultural life. Dr. Brien Ray did a fascinating study on homeschoolers and found that 73% of homeschoolers 18-24 vote compared to 29% of all people their age. The voting percentage goes up to 95% for people above age 25 and they're three times more likely than their fellow citizens to give political contributions. 74% of homeschoolers have taken college courses, compared to only 46% of the general population. Ironically, homeschoolers who were predicted to be social misfits, are more active and involved in their community's politics than the general population.Parents who chose to make extraordinary sacrifices to ensure their children aren't led astray by the dominant culture are getting extraordinary results as 94% of homeschoolers are holding to their parents religious beliefs.The Homeschooled kids of the '90s will be the leaders of the next century because of hard work, sacrifice, and loving families. I was homeschooled, but am hardly the best or brightest of the bunch. I never thought about it much as a kid, but having been around both homeschooled and public school kids as an adult, I'm struck by the general courtesy, kindness, and advance vocabulary of homeschooled kids. They're a shining beacon of hope in this present darkness, and a reminder of God's abiding faithfulness. And the nay sayers said "O NO how are they going to learn to Socialize?" Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DaveH writes: FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. Not necessarily; being over protective through fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful eye on their side. I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the ravages in the strength of his youth than allow such illnesses to eventually attack later in life when one is perhaps more vulnerable? This is what the wisdom of the world teaches. But we are fearfully and wonderfully made and God has given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that comes our way when not compromised by sin. I see that somewhat as an analogy to the tree knowledge of good and evil. I hope that makes a little sense, Terry. (Though I'm sure some TTers will take exception.) FTRI don't think that is the sole reason for the tree though. Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4) Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous. Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28. Terry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous. Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE
Genesis 2:7 ...man became a living soul. This is only said of men. No where in the Bible will you find a reference to the soul of a horse or a monkey. Animals were not made to have eternal lives any more than trees or vines. They were created for man to use, to eat, to have dominion over. Terry === Dave Hansen wrote: monkeys and horses do not have a soul. DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim, Terry? What Biblical evidence supports that theory? Terry Clifton wrote: I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that monkeys and horses do not have a soul. == Dave Hansen wrote: He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference. DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I will admit to being biased by my belief that He did plan for them to fall. As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is safe to speculate that some (if not most) of AE's descendants would have transgressed. Look at AEit didn't take them too long to transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other villains of history would have remained angels? I submit to you that there would proportionally be very few who would not have transgressed. Consider another example. Adults have preached to kids ad nauseam to avoid smoking, alcohol, sex and drugs. Just denying them such, entices many it seems. Sowould you reasonably expect any but a few of AE's descendants to withstand the temptations that Eve failed to avoid? Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys, horses or whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the forbidden fruit have had IFF AE hadn't? Terry Clifton wrote: This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to accept. God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference. As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error. = Dave Hansen wrote: He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone? if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the AE situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in which he said AE screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire again. I must be missing something about your (forgive mebut let me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If AE had not transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of AE's children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the billions who descended from AE, none would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that happening.zilch?!?!?! Sowhy do most Christians blame AE for the misery in the world, when it was inevitable. From my perspectivenot only was it expected, but it was planned. And...evidently you believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from before the world was created.that it was planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem logical. Like I saidperhaps I'm missing something about the way you understand it. Judy wrote: I think they did nto have to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would the Lord want that for them/us? Terry Clifton wrote:
Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :) Blainerb In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous. Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
I can only hope that my darling grandchildren will never blend in with those demonic creatures that attend the Government Schools. J iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:24 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE Actually, my youngest daughter (22 years old) has told me why she has decided to NOT hoime school her children .. and itis for much of the same reason as seen in the opening line below. She told me thateach of the eight friends she had at Fresno Pacific U (who were all home schooled) hada very difficult time getting along with those in the school or fitting in. My oldest daughter (38 years old) home schools up to junior high age for the same reason. jd -Original Message- From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:38:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. NONSENSE That is like saying a gardner who overprotects his PRIZE flowers from weeds and pests will end up with flowers that are acutely susceptible to it! Prize Flowers are to be handled with care preferably in a safe environment like a greenhouse. Allowing access to your children to those things that would mean to do them harm is a foolish philosophy http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10336018/from/RSS/ http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/graham/051127 The Next Generation of Leadership The most important people are the ones that history glosses over and such is the case with Home Schooling families. The presence of kids who were Homeschooled in the 1980s and '90s is beginning to be felt more and more in our cultural life. Dr. Brien Ray did a fascinating study on homeschoolers and found that 73% of homeschoolers 18-24 vote compared to 29% of all people their age. The voting percentage goes up to 95% for people above age 25 and they're three times more likely than their fellow citizens to give political contributions. 74% of homeschoolers have taken college courses, compared to only 46% of the general population. Ironically, homeschoolers who were predicted to be social misfits, are more active and involved in their community's politics than the general population. Parents who chose to make extraordinary sacrifices to ensure their children aren't led astray by the dominant culture are getting extraordinary results as 94% of homeschoolers are holding to their parents religious beliefs. The Homeschooled kids of the '90s will be the leaders of the next century because of hard work, sacrifice, and loving families. I was homeschooled, but am hardly the best or brightest of the bunch. I never thought about it much as a kid, but having been around both homeschooled and public school kids as an adult, I'm struck by the general courtesy, kindness, and advance vocabulary of homeschooled kids. They're a shining beacon of hope in this present darkness, and a reminder of God's abiding faithfulness. And the nay sayers said O NO how are they going to learn to Socialize? Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DaveH writes: FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. Not necessarily; being over protective through fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful eye on their side. I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the ravages in the strength of his youth than allow such illnesses to eventually attack later in life when one is perhaps more vulnerable? This is what the wisdom of the world teaches. But we are fearfully and wonderfully made and God has given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that comes our way when not compromised by sin. I see that somewhat as an analogy to the tree knowledge of good and evil. I hope that makes a little sense, Terry. (Though I'm sure some TTers will take exception.) FTRI don't think that is the sole reason for the tree though. Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit and this is the tree God