Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
- Forwarded Message - From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! It is obvious Defkalion knows about the catalyst. They would not have invested hundreds of millions of dollars without knowing the identity of it. I keep hearing about this so called press release that was sent out claiming Rossi and Defkalion have split up. Does anyone know where it is located? From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! If they split up, it means there is no more e-cats made by Defkalion because only Rossi knows about the catalyzer.
[Vo]:direct link to Informavore's Sunday
excuse me, I forgot to send: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/08/informavores-sunday-no-467.html Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Anyone have any evidence? I'm really hoping if this rumor is *real*, that someone will post the so called press release. If several members of this forum have seen it, they need to post it. Otherwise, I say that several members of this forum are participating in rumor mongering. Please put a big disclaimer on it when you post it, so people will know that it has not been confirmed as being legit. From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:38 AM Subject: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! There are rumors that Rossi and Defkalion have split up. However, no evidence has been presented. If you have evidence, present it. Otherwise, this is just rumor mongering.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
On 2011-08-07 07:38, noone noone wrote: There are rumors that Rossi and Defkalion have split up. However, no evidence has been presented. If you have evidence, present it. Here's the evidence, straight from Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59867 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:52 AM Dear Marcia Pires: Thank you for your question, and here is the PRESS RELEASE : Bologna-Rome (Italy) August 4th 2011 EFA- Energia da Fonti Alternative srl, the Italian Company through which the rights for the production of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat were granted to Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies LTD, publicly announces that the License and Technology Transfer Agreement between the two companies has been recently terminated. All business relationships with Praxen , the Cyprus based company that owns the Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies S.A., have been cancelled and asof today neither Praxen nor Defkalion, nor any other Greek company whatsoever holds any rights for the production of the E-Cat or for any other exploitation of Andrea Rossi’s technology. Furthermore Andrea Rossi and EFA announce that no information, nor industrial secret, nor any technology whatsoever has been neither transferred, nor disclosed, neither to Praxen, nor to Defkalion, nor to any other Greek company whatsoever and currently Andrea Rossi and EFA are not planning to deal with any other project in Greece. Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greeceand no E-Cat has ever been brought, produced, or assembled in the territory of the Ellenic Republic: so not only the technology is still fully owned by Andrea Rossi’s company, Leonardo Corporation, but it still remains a well preserved industrial secret. Any declaration or public announcement of third parties claiming possession of rights on the E-Cat technology and/or indide knowledge of said technology, as well as any statement of third parties in conflict with the above facts shall be considered a fake and treated as misleading information. Andrea Rossi is the inventor of the “Method and Apparatus for carrying out Nickel and Hydrogen Exothermal reactions” (known to the general public as E-Cat) for which international patent demand no. WO2009/125444 is pending and Italian Patent office has already been issued on April 6th, 2011 the final patent no. 0001387256. EFA Energia da Fonti Alternative s.r.l. is incorporated in Italy. Leonardo Corporation is incorporated in New Hampshire, USA. Contact: EFA srl- Via Marsili 4- 40124 Bologna- Italy So now what about the 1 MW power plant promised for the end of October? I wonder if this will speed up or speed down Rossi's plans. Cheers, S.A.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Can we not get this Steorn holdover, whoever he really is, removed from this list ? He refuses to post under a real name. He bad-mouths everyone who does not worship Rossi and has no apparent understanding of the science involved. Has he ever contributed anything to our understanding of the situation other than silly fanboy platitudes? Send him back to Steorn where he belongs From: noone noone [mailto:thesteornpa...@yahoo.com] * Otherwise, I say that several members of this forum are participating in rumor mongering. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
This is something. Hopefully it just tells that neither Defkalion nor Rossi has real resources to make this technology commercially viable soon enough and Rossi will just make technology publicly available and protected only by Italian and soon international patent. If this is not going to happen, then bye bye E-Cat. There is only time left to end of this month for the window that E-Cat is real. —Jouni On Aug 7, 2011 4:14 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-08-07 07:38, noone noone wrote: There are rumors that Rossi and Defkalion have split up. However, no evidence has been presented. If you have evidence, present it. Here's the evidence, straight from Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59867 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:52 AM Dear Marcia Pires: Thank you for your question, and here is the PRESS RELEASE : Bologna-Rome (Italy) August 4th 2011 EFA- Energia da Fonti Alternative srl, the Italian Company through which the rights for the production of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat were granted to Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies LTD, publicly announces that the License and Technology Transfer Agreement between the two companies has been recently terminated. All business relationships with Praxen , the Cyprus based company that owns the Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies S.A., have been cancelled and asof today neither Praxen nor Defkalion, nor any other Greek company whatsoever holds any rights for the production of the E-Cat or for any other exploitation of Andrea Rossi’s technology. Furthermore Andrea Rossi and EFA announce that no information, nor industrial secret, nor any technology whatsoever has been neither transferred, nor disclosed, neither to Praxen, nor to Defkalion, nor to any other Greek company whatsoever and currently Andrea Rossi and EFA are not planning to deal with any other project in Greece. Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greeceand no E-Cat has ever been brought, produced, or assembled in the territory of the Ellenic Republic: so not only the technology is still fully owned by Andrea Rossi’s company, Leonardo Corporation, but it still remains a well preserved industrial secret. Any declaration or public announcement of third parties claiming possession of rights on the E-Cat technology and/or indide knowledge of said technology, as well as any statement of third parties in conflict with the above facts shall be considered a fake and treated as misleading information. Andrea Rossi is the inventor of the “Method and Apparatus for carrying out Nickel and Hydrogen Exothermal reactions” (known to the general public as E-Cat) for which international patent demand no. WO2009/125444 is pending and Italian Patent office has already been issued on April 6th, 2011 the final patent no. 0001387256. EFA Energia da Fonti Alternative s.r.l. is incorporated in Italy. Leonardo Corporation is incorporated in New Hampshire, USA. Contact: EFA srl- Via Marsili 4- 40124 Bologna- Italy So now what about the 1 MW power plant promised for the end of October? I wonder if this will speed up or speed down Rossi's plans. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
On 2011-08-07 15:30, Jouni Valkonen wrote: This is something. Hopefully it just tells that neither Defkalion nor Rossi has real resources to make this technology commercially viable soon enough and Rossi will just make technology publicly available and protected only by Italian and soon international patent. If this is not going to happen, then bye bye E-Cat. There is only time left to end of this month for the window that E-Cat is real. Well, according to Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59864 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:28 AM Dear Alvaro Rodriguez: Thank you for your honest comment; in any case the start up in October of a 1 MW plant eill cut the head of the bull. Warm Regards, A.R. There will be start up of a 1 MW plant in October anyway. I suspect it will be Ampenergo's. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
It seems Rossi's ways are inherently tortuous Have asked my Greek friends and now I will see what says Daniele if he knows more. I have never ruined. a 200M euro business so I envy Rossi But it is quite incredible.. . Peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.comwrote: On 2011-08-07 15:30, Jouni Valkonen wrote: This is something. Hopefully it just tells that neither Defkalion nor Rossi has real resources to make this technology commercially viable soon enough and Rossi will just make technology publicly available and protected only by Italian and soon international patent. If this is not going to happen, then bye bye E-Cat. There is only time left to end of this month for the window that E-Cat is real. Well, according to Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-**physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#**comment-59864http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59864 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:28 AM Dear Alvaro Rodriguez: Thank you for your honest comment; in any case the start up in October of a 1 MW plant eill cut the head of the bull. Warm Regards, A.R. There will be start up of a 1 MW plant in October anyway. I suspect it will be Ampenergo's. Cheers, S.A. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
The big October demo in Greece is going to be cancelled ? 2011/8/7 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com It seems Rossi's ways are inherently tortuous Have asked my Greek friends and now I will see what says Daniele if he knows more. I have never ruined. a 200M euro business so I envy Rossi But it is quite incredible.. . Peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-08-07 15:30, Jouni Valkonen wrote: This is something. Hopefully it just tells that neither Defkalion nor Rossi has real resources to make this technology commercially viable soon enough and Rossi will just make technology publicly available and protected only by Italian and soon international patent. If this is not going to happen, then bye bye E-Cat. There is only time left to end of this month for the window that E-Cat is real. Well, according to Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-**physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#** comment-59864http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59864 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:28 AM Dear Alvaro Rodriguez: Thank you for your honest comment; in any case the start up in October of a 1 MW plant eill cut the head of the bull. Warm Regards, A.R. There will be start up of a 1 MW plant in October anyway. I suspect it will be Ampenergo's. Cheers, S.A. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Will take place in the US with the collaboration of the greatest scientists of the world (Who are they?) This bizarre news is already on Daniele's 22 Passi blog with no inside information yet. Defkalion site inactive. Waiting for Prof Sremmenos's explanations too. Peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Andrea Selva andreagiuseppe.se...@gmail.com wrote: The big October demo in Greece is going to be cancelled ? 2011/8/7 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com It seems Rossi's ways are inherently tortuous Have asked my Greek friends and now I will see what says Daniele if he knows more. I have never ruined. a 200M euro business so I envy Rossi But it is quite incredible.. . Peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-08-07 15:30, Jouni Valkonen wrote: This is something. Hopefully it just tells that neither Defkalion nor Rossi has real resources to make this technology commercially viable soon enough and Rossi will just make technology publicly available and protected only by Italian and soon international patent. If this is not going to happen, then bye bye E-Cat. There is only time left to end of this month for the window that E-Cat is real. Well, according to Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-**physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#** comment-59864http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59864 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:28 AM Dear Alvaro Rodriguez: Thank you for your honest comment; in any case the start up in October of a 1 MW plant eill cut the head of the bull. Warm Regards, A.R. There will be start up of a 1 MW plant in October anyway. I suspect it will be Ampenergo's. Cheers, S.A. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
On 2011-08-07 15:58, Andrea Selva wrote: The big October demo in Greece is going to be cancelled ? He's going to demonstrate his megawatt plant in the USA: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59881 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 9:00 AM Dear Sterling: I prefer that the reasons will be cleared by a judge by a verdict. Facts, not chatters, as usual with me. Our attorneys have filed a suit. I confirm that our 1 MW plant will be put in operation in the USA, after an agreement we made last week with one of the most important entities of the USA; the tests will be made by the highest level scientists you can think of. I cannot give the names, until after the test. To the test will attend the highest level scientific journalists I know. Thank you for your kind attention, A.R. Cheers, S.A.
[Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Well since this breakup information finally comes from Rossi himself, the earlier press release was apparently not a forgery. At any rate, it would be easy to misinterpret what this E-Cat breakup means, but it clearly means that Rossi does not realize that DGT may know his all-important secret. They have said as much. It may also mean that Rossi has been had. For the benefit of those not conversant with US slang - this means that the breakup was based on an illusion, and was actually engineered by Defkalion in order to preserve funds for their own MW demonstration. After all, there is are 100,000,000 reasons why this breakup could hurt Rossi more than help him. And the converse is true for DGT. Or rather, to be accurate we should say - either Defkalion is a sham and completely dishonest- or else they have effectively reverse engineered his device; and thereafter they have concocted this breakup scheme - since AR adamantly claims that DGT have received NO devices, nor do they know the secret. Defkalion, OTOH claim to have a MW unit in testing now - probably in Cyprus. The Xanthi plant is most likely a red herring, or else it was specifically set up to obtain EEC 'ecology funds' which were not forthcoming. That is another story which is just now coming out. Apparently, there is no indication from visitors to the Xanthi site that there is anything going on in that location to indicate that production or a demonstration is planned. It was a complete diversion, apparently. Rossi may have known that there was nothing going on there and based his decision on this fact. This probably means that all of DGTs efforts, if they are really 'players' and not liars, are taking place at another site, most likely in Cyprus ... or else of course, that they are complete frauds. Rossi probably thinks that they are completely fraudulent, which could be the case, we simply do not know at this stage - but there is another way of looking at the dynamics of this situation. My preliminary hypothesis (based on too-little information) 1) Defkalion are basically clever opportunists who found Rossi at the right time and provided some initial funding. 2) They may have ties to the Russian government. 3) The reverse-engineering of E-Cat could have been done in Russia. IOW they got hold of at least one E-Cat unit (possibly by illegal means) and had it reversed engineered by a technology powerhouse, but Rossi does not know this. 4)They want to avoid any further payment to Rossi and conserve funds for their own product line 5) With their superior engineering support, they could have advanced the technology well beyond Rossi. 6) The clever part is that they set up a 'sting' to make it look like it is Rossi's call on the breakup, and that DGT will suffer in the end - when in fact, it was a well conceived deception from the start. 7) An almost perfect double scam ? This is not ruled out, since AR thinks they do not know the secret. Time will tell. Actually, as for predictions for the next few months, I am looking for TWO separate demos this fall - possibly one by Rossi in November (in the USA) - but possibly one by DGT earlier - perhaps in October, but most likely not in Xanthi. I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Jones attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
A simpler explanation DGT has stated that the E-cat is not catching energy-mice and got a better place/business to invest money? Also speculating. I have met Prof Stremmenos two times at Asti but we are not in so good relation, cannot phone him. Peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Well since this breakup information finally comes from Rossi himself, the earlier press release was apparently not a forgery. At any rate, it would be easy to misinterpret what this E-Cat breakup means, but it clearly means that Rossi does not realize that DGT may know his all-important secret. They have said as much. It may also mean that Rossi has been had. For the benefit of those not conversant with US slang - this means that the breakup was based on an illusion, and was actually engineered by Defkalion in order to preserve funds for their own MW demonstration. After all, there is are 100,000,000 reasons why this breakup could hurt Rossi more than help him. And the converse is true for DGT. Or rather, to be accurate we should say - either Defkalion is a sham and completely dishonest- or else they have effectively reverse engineered his device; and thereafter they have concocted this breakup scheme - since AR adamantly claims that DGT have received NO devices, nor do they know the secret. Defkalion, OTOH claim to have a MW unit in testing now - probably in Cyprus. The Xanthi plant is most likely a red herring, or else it was specifically set up to obtain EEC 'ecology funds' which were not forthcoming. That is another story which is just now coming out. Apparently, there is no indication from visitors to the Xanthi site that there is anything going on in that location to indicate that production or a demonstration is planned. It was a complete diversion, apparently. Rossi may have known that there was nothing going on there and based his decision on this fact. This probably means that all of DGTs efforts, if they are really 'players' and not liars, are taking place at another site, most likely in Cyprus ... or else of course, that they are complete frauds. Rossi probably thinks that they are completely fraudulent, which could be the case, we simply do not know at this stage - but there is another way of looking at the dynamics of this situation. My preliminary hypothesis (based on too-little information) 1) Defkalion are basically clever opportunists who found Rossi at the right time and provided some initial funding. 2) They may have ties to the Russian government. 3) The reverse-engineering of E-Cat could have been done in Russia. IOW they got hold of at least one E-Cat unit (possibly by illegal means) and had it reversed engineered by a technology powerhouse, but Rossi does not know this. 4)They want to avoid any further payment to Rossi and conserve funds for their own product line 5) With their superior engineering support, they could have advanced the technology well beyond Rossi. 6) The clever part is that they set up a 'sting' to make it look like it is Rossi's call on the breakup, and that DGT will suffer in the end - when in fact, it was a well conceived deception from the start. 7) An almost perfect double scam ? This is not ruled out, since AR thinks they do not know the secret. Time will tell. Actually, as for predictions for the next few months, I am looking for TWO separate demos this fall - possibly one by Rossi in November (in the USA) - but possibly one by DGT earlier - perhaps in October, but most likely not in Xanthi. I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Jones -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 9:00 AM Dear Sterling: I prefer that the reasons will be cleared by a judge by a verdict. Facts, not chatters, as usual with me. Our attorneys have filed a suit. I confirm that our 1 MW plant will be put in operation in the USA, after an agreement we made last week with one of the most important entities of the USA; the tests will be made by the highest level scientists you can think of. I cannot give the names, until after the test. To the test will attend the highest level scientific journalists I know. Amazing. No product yet and the hounds of hell have already been unleashed. What a feeding frenzy this will become. . . . one of the most important entities of the USA . . . Well, politically speaking, that must mean the AMA or the AARP! T, Baby Boomer
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
I see that Daniele Passerini has also posted the notice with no further comment. Well, the Sea of Women and following poetry could be some kind of subtle statement. T
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
What if the opposite is true? What if Defkalion had advanced the technology beyond what Rossi had been able to achieve, and they really did not need Rossi any longer. Remember, Defkalion claimed that the Greek govt were going to do performance and safety certification testing of their products the first ten days of July. What if they have products ready to ship and install, but are waiting on Rossi to get his one megawatt plant up and running? Perhaps Rossi saw how far they had advanced the technology, and got spooked. We don't know the whole story. We don't know what is true at this point. From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means Well since this breakup information finally comes from Rossi himself, the earlier press release was apparently not a forgery. At any rate, it would be easy to misinterpret what this E-Cat breakup means, but it clearly means that Rossi does not realize that DGT may know his all-important secret. They have said as much. It may also mean that Rossi has been had. For the benefit of those not conversant with US slang - this means that the breakup was based on an illusion, and was actually engineered by Defkalion in order to preserve funds for their own MW demonstration. After all, there is are 100,000,000 reasons why this breakup could hurt Rossi more than help him. And the converse is true for DGT. Or rather, to be accurate we should say - either Defkalion is a sham and completely dishonest- or else they have effectively reverse engineered his device; and thereafter they have concocted this breakup scheme - since AR adamantly claims that DGT have received NO devices, nor do they know the secret. Defkalion, OTOH claim to have a MW unit in testing now - probably in Cyprus. The Xanthi plant is most likely a red herring, or else it was specifically set up to obtain EEC 'ecology funds' which were not forthcoming. That is another story which is just now coming out. Apparently, there is no indication from visitors to the Xanthi site that there is anything going on in that location to indicate that production or a demonstration is planned. It was a complete diversion, apparently. Rossi may have known that there was nothing going on there and based his decision on this fact. This probably means that all of DGTs efforts, if they are really 'players' and not liars, are taking place at another site, most likely in Cyprus ... or else of course, that they are complete frauds. Rossi probably thinks that they are completely fraudulent, which could be the case, we simply do not know at this stage - but there is another way of looking at the dynamics of this situation. My preliminary hypothesis (based on too-little information) 1) Defkalion are basically clever opportunists who found Rossi at the right time and provided some initial funding. 2) They may have ties to the Russian government. 3) The reverse-engineering of E-Cat could have been done in Russia. IOW they got hold of at least one E-Cat unit (possibly by illegal means) and had it reversed engineered by a technology powerhouse, but Rossi does not know this. 4)They want to avoid any further payment to Rossi and conserve funds for their own product line 5) With their superior engineering support, they could have advanced the technology well beyond Rossi. 6) The clever part is that they set up a 'sting' to make it look like it is Rossi's call on the breakup, and that DGT will suffer in the end - when in fact, it was a well conceived deception from the start. 7) An almost perfect double scam ? This is not ruled out, since AR thinks they do not know the secret. Time will tell. Actually, as for predictions for the next few months, I am looking for TWO separate demos this fall - possibly one by Rossi in November (in the USA) - but possibly one by DGT earlier - perhaps in October, but most likely not in Xanthi. I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Jones
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Did you know that Cyprus was once owned by the Templars? T
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
They are lots of comments- some in English, make a search for the and you get them. Rossi has told to Passerini that the Greeks have not paid, tht's the reason of the divorce. But why have they not paid? The contract with the Bologna U. continues OK (says Rossi) Daniele has also asked Stremmenos not answer yet. Rossi emphasizes collaboration with highest level US scientist. Story a bit surrealistic. Peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I see that Daniele Passerini has also posted the notice with no further comment. Well, the Sea of Women and following poetry could be some kind of subtle statement. T -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
...err ... speaking of holy grails ? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Did you know that Cyprus was once owned by the Templars?
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
see Ecatnews.com comments re divorce peter On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Did you know that Cyprus was once owned by the Templars? T -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
UPDATE: I have been alerted that the likeliest location of Hyperion development in Cyprus is not Nicosia but Limassol, which also looks very inviting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limassol,_Cyprus ...err ... speaking of holy grails ? I hear that Nicosia is nice in the fall g Did you know that Cyprus was once owned by the Templars?
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: UPDATE: I have been alerted that the likeliest location of Hyperion development in Cyprus is not Nicosia but Limassol, which also looks very inviting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limassol,_Cyprus Well, well, well! That explains this response regarding the facilities and atmosphere at Defkalion (which could not have been Athens nor Xanthi): Defkalion GT Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:50 pm Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:56 pm Posts: 144 HQ: Excellent location, beach in 2min walking distance, some of our business or technical meetings we do there... They do not allow us yet to perform explosions of Hyperions at the beach (according to some people believes, we must have something very explosive in our hands). Maybe we will try some booms by the end of the swimming period, we will keep you posted on the results. About our people: Every one comes and (sometimes) leaves office with a smile (all the times). Labs: Same atmoshere, different locations. Our people there could not destroyed any of our labs. Incompetence ... Thank you for your question. Every one leaves the office with a smile. No doubt! T
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
At 02:06 AM 8/7/2011, noone noone wrote: - Forwarded Message - From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:05 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! It is obvious Defkalion knows about the catalyst. They would not have invested hundreds of millions of dollars without knowing the identity of it. I keep hearing about this so called press release that was sent out claiming Rossi and Defkalion have split up. Does anyone know where it is located? From: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it! If they split up, it means there is no more e-cats made by Defkalion because only Rossi knows about the catalyzer. Un-be-lievable, what people will assume in the absence of knowledge. And then they will build structures of belief on what they imagined. I'd think that Rossi would not disclose the catalyst to Defkalion, not at this point. But he might have. He might, instead, have agreed to deposit the information with a trustee, in escrow. It would be whatever Defkalion and Rossi agreed. For Rossi to keep the catalyst secret at this point was rational. (Except that he thereby might have rendedered his patent useless, that's a different issue.) We don't know the nature of the agreement between Rossi and Defkalion, nor what contingencies it contemplates. It's quite possible that Defkalion, for various reasons, might want to disentangle themselves from Rossi. And they might indeed have the catalyst, or something that works as well. Or even better. Perhaps they did, indeed, invest hundreds of millions of dollars or euros. A tiny fraction of that would fund a massive investigation of possiblities, the testing of thousands of them. For all we know, they did this. Or they didn't. In the other direction, I've seen no evidence at all that Defkalion has invested hundreds of millions of dollars, and that is so unlikely (except for the kind of research that would be independent of Rossi) that I might as well say that they have not. They have spent far, far less, and they have merely arranged, we might assume, *commitments* for large sums, based on promised delivery and conditions for payment. Defkalion is, it seems, far more noise than substance at this point. They are, indeed, spending money, but not much compared to the potential return if Rossi delivers good product. As to the press release, it appears from the testimony of a participant here that some people, possible investors, have seen it. It purports to be from the company owned or largely owned by Rossi's wife. There is no verification of this, and, as pointed out, it could be completely phoney. A rift between Rossi and Defkalion at this point would be amazing, though. And I won't speculate more than that.
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
From Defkalion web page: Company Structure Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies (Global) Ltd., is based in Cyprus; it owns the contract signed with the inventor regarding the industrial secret with right of first refusal to sell globally except the US. http://www.defkalion-energy.com/profile end It surely implies that Rossi gave up the sauce recipe. T
RE: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
From Terry Dear Sterling: I prefer that the reasons will be cleared by a judge by a verdict. Facts, not chatters, as usual with me. Our attorneys have filed a suit. I confirm that our 1 MW plant will be put in operation in the USA, after an agreement we made last week with one of the most important entities of the USA; the tests will be made by the highest level scientists you can think of. I cannot give the names, until after the test. To the test will attend the highest level scientific journalists I know. Amazing. No product yet and the hounds of hell have already been unleashed. What a feeding frenzy this will become. . . . one of the most important entities of the USA . . . Well, politically speaking, that must mean the AMA or the AARP! Admittedly, I want Rossi to succeed. Obviously, I'm an old softie. That said, Rossi's comments sure sound like chest beating to me. I suspect that at present any important entities within the USA if asked point blank, Are you collaborating with Rossi on the matter of testing his eCats? would immediately disavow any knowledge of Rossi and of any prior dealings. Rossi who? As for me, I can't tell if this implies there might exist a serious engineering problem with Rossi's eCats, or whether it is simply another symptom of there being too many alpha males trying to dominate the only troop in town perceived to be worth dominating. I wonder what Levi thinks about the latest drama. Regards, (Card carrying AARP member) Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: From Defkalion web page: Company Structure Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies (Global) Ltd., is based in Cyprus; it owns the contract signed with the inventor regarding the industrial secret with right of first refusal to sell globally except the US. http://www.defkalion-energy.com/profile end It surely implies that Rossi gave up the sauce recipe. Yup. Either Rossi is lying, or Defkalion is. It could not be more clear cut. What a damn circus. It is sad that cold fusion keeps ending up in controversy and fiascos. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
LOL (well, OK, just chuckling, really) And so Rossi's exit strategy from the Defkalion situation has materialized. It's probably not quite what anyone expected, but it's certainly gotten him off the hook for delivering anything to them. Lots of tortuous explanations of the split are possible. A very simple one, however, seems to have been rejected by most Vorts: Defkalion was really on the up and up, but the deal was pending waiting on delivery of the actual, working technology by Rossi. Since Rossi doesn't have any actual, working technology, the delivery never happened, and so the deal fell through. Tant pis. October will be interesting. On 11-08-07 09:12 AM, Akira Shirakawa wrote: On 2011-08-07 07:38, noone noone wrote: There are rumors that Rossi and Defkalion have split up. However, no evidence has been presented. If you have evidence, present it. Here's the evidence, straight from Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59867 Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 7:52 AM Dear Marcia Pires: Thank you for your question, and here is the PRESS RELEASE : Bologna-Rome (Italy) August 4th 2011 EFA- Energia da Fonti Alternative srl, the Italian Company through which the rights for the production of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat were granted to Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies LTD, publicly announces that the License and Technology Transfer Agreement between the two companies has been recently terminated. All business relationships with Praxen , the Cyprus based company that owns the Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies S.A., have been cancelled and asof today neither Praxen nor Defkalion, nor any other Greek company whatsoever holds any rights for the production of the E-Cat or for any other exploitation of Andrea Rossi’s technology. Furthermore Andrea Rossi and EFA announce that no information, nor industrial secret, nor any technology whatsoever has been neither transferred, nor disclosed, neither to Praxen, nor to Defkalion, nor to any other Greek company whatsoever and currently Andrea Rossi and EFA are not planning to deal with any other project in Greece. Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greeceand no E-Cat has ever been brought, produced, or assembled in the territory of the Ellenic Republic: so not only the technology is still fully owned by Andrea Rossi’s company, Leonardo Corporation, but it still remains a well preserved industrial secret. Any declaration or public announcement of third parties claiming possession of rights on the E-Cat technology and/or indide knowledge of said technology, as well as any statement of third parties in conflict with the above facts shall be considered a fake and treated as misleading information. Andrea Rossi is the inventor of the “Method and Apparatus for carrying out Nickel and Hydrogen Exothermal reactions” (known to the general public as E-Cat) for which international patent demand no. WO2009/125444 is pending and Italian Patent office has already been issued on April 6th, 2011 the final patent no. 0001387256. EFA Energia da Fonti Alternative s.r.l. is incorporated in Italy. Leonardo Corporation is incorporated in New Hampshire, USA. Contact: EFA srl- Via Marsili 4- 40124 Bologna- Italy So now what about the 1 MW power plant promised for the end of October? I wonder if this will speed up or speed down Rossi's plans. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Perhaps I should read all my mail before responding to the older messages. Still, I don't think I embarassed myself by what I wrote. At 09:12 AM 8/7/2011, Akira Shirakawa wrote: ... Here's the evidence, straight from Rossi: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=9#comment-59867 With some satisfaction, I suppose, I note that all those who defended Rossi's claim by supposing that Defkalion had tested the technology must now assume that either Rossi is lying or they were incorrect. I don't think Rossi is lying, though he could be. Fascinating.
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Well, well, well indeed! As the evidence adds up, it is looking more and more like this impulsive move by AR - to sever the relationship with DGT - was not such a smart move. Did he let his ego get ahead of cool-headed self-restraint? Seriously, did he not essentially cancel a contract that could have been worth millions in damages in the World Court (eventually)? That is assuming that DGT really have advanced ahead of him technologically - and can manage to beat him to a MW demonstration. Even if they have no money presently to meet a deadline which had been agreed to months ago (as reported), the fact remains that if they somehow got hold of the industrial secret which they claim to have already, and were able to advance the technology beyond that, then the company (DGT) and the lawsuit would be worth billions in a few years with damages included. The last thing you want to do as an inventor in this kind of case is to let them off the hook by unilaterally cancelling the contract. Sure the contract might not be worth anything for a few years, and even then you would have to go to court, but still Swallow your pride, man! How do you turn your back on $100,000,000 (or more) simply on ego-driven impulse? Jones -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton I have been alerted that the likeliest location of Hyperion development in Cyprus is not Nicosia but Limassol, which also looks very inviting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limassol,_Cyprus Well, well, well! That explains this response regarding the facilities and atmosphere at Defkalion (which could not have been Athens nor Xanthi): Defkalion GT Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:50 pm Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:56 pm Posts: 144 HQ: Excellent location, beach in 2min walking distance, some of our business or technical meetings we do there... They do not allow us yet to perform explosions of Hyperions at the beach (according to some people believes, we must have something very explosive in our hands). Maybe we will try some booms by the end of the swimming period, we will keep you posted on the results. About our people: Every one comes and (sometimes) leaves office with a smile (all the times). Labs: Same atmoshere, different locations. Our people there could not destroyed any of our labs. Incompetence ... Thank you for your question. Every one leaves the office with a smile. No doubt! T
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
At 10:52 AM 8/7/2011, noone noone wrote: Perhaps Rossi saw how far they had advanced the technology, and got spooked. We don't know the whole story. We don't know what is true at this point. Before there is any sign that Defkalion is making a move, Rossi announces that he's terminating the contract. Then he talks about his attorney's being active. At what? Speculation: at suing Defkalion for stealing the technology. Speculation: indeed, with a lot of money, trivial to break in to Rossi's facilities and take an E-cat, examine it thoroughly, and return it undetected. All it takes is money to hire the talent that knows very well how to do that. Could be Russia, indeed. I'd considered Rossi's strategy, relying upon industrial secret, to be hopeless from the beginning, and I said so. He has effectively invalidated his own patent by not disclosing a necessary element, the catalyst. Rossi's eccentricity may well have demolished his fortunes. Lots of people, believing him, advised him differently, but he chose to ignore all that. Time will tell.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
At 11:16 AM 8/7/2011, Peter Gluck wrote: They are lots of comments- some in English, make a search for the and you get them. Rossi has told to Passerini that the Greeks have not paid, tht's the reason of the divorce. But why have they not paid? Again and again Rossi emphasized that he didn't get paid until he delivered. But it's possible that there was a requirement that the funds be placed in escrow, so it's still possible he's telling the truth. However, what this could mean is not incapacity, but an unwillingness to tie up a huge amount of money on what was looking like fraudulent exaggeration. For less money, they could do their own research. What if Defkalion hired real experts, including experts in steam engineering, and people skilled in recognizing fraud, to review the same evidence that we have all seen and discussed? What if they developed thorough reports covering all this, definitive, so that they really had a solid understanding of the situation and the possibilities. In other words, what if they behaved like prudent investors with the resources to be thorougly prudent? Beyond that, what if they used black ops? Governments do it. They might have had, indeed, the cooperation of the Greek government. If you had the connections they apparently had, would you do this? Remember, the national security of Greece was possibly at stake. Rossi shot himself in the foot, it seems.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
2011/8/7 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net: Even if they have no money presently to meet a deadline which had been agreed to months ago (as reported), the fact remains that if they somehow got hold of the industrial secret which they claim to have already, and were able to advance the technology beyond that, then the company (DGT) and the lawsuit would be worth billions in a few years with damages included. I think that here is misunderstanding. Defkalion said on their web page that they have legal rights for industrial secrets. This certainly does not mean that they do possess such secrets and even less that they do not possess the knowledge, because they failed to pay Rossi as was agreed. Failure to make the payment is more than enough reason for Rossi to cancel the agreement and all the rights. For me the difference between Rossi's chattering and DGT's chattering is quite good evidence that Defkalion was phony company in the first place. And I somehow felt all the way that I did not trust Defkalion. That Greek head person of DGT on video just sounded too suspicious. And here I assure you that this is 100% wisdom after the event! I just hope that Rossi is coming into his senses that he releases the technology to the public immediately. It still costs for the global economy about one gigaeuro per hour while Rossi is delaying the publication of his technology. - Jouni
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
From http://ecatnews.com/ re the Defkalion forum: When live, the forum was a key source of (what should have been) quality information. From it, we were told that Defkalion has tested the eCat many times, always achieving a gain of 19 or more. As we can see below, either they were lying or the press release on AR's blog is giving incorrect information. Either way, this looks bad [] It's not necessarily true that Defkalion was lying or that Rossi's information was incorrect. Rossi was stating what he believed, we may initially assume. He believed that they were not testing, since he hadn't provided them with E-cats. Ecatnews.com notes that this is all disturbing. It sure is. Rossi used and allowed the Defkalion situation as a proof that what he was doing was legitimate. If it's true that he provided no E-cats, then he would think one of two things: they were lying, or they had developed something new, which they don't call an E-cat, they call it Hyperion. Either way, Rossi used the impressions created by Defkalion to amplify his own credibility. Just yesterday, there was a comment here that Rossi must have disclosed the catalyst to Defkalion because otherwise they would not have invested hundreds of millions of dollars, I think was written. Rossi, from his announcement, never trusted them with the catalyst. Therefore, if they did discover the catalyst, they did not obtain it from disclosure, and he's going to have a devil of a time trying to prove that they stole the process. Unless he could prove industrial espionage, and his own comment denies that the secret isn't safe. Rossi's bluster and his habits of rejecting good advice from people who not only believed him but who knew what they were talking about seem to have resulted in his falling into a huge trap, of his own making. If Defkalion's statements are true, it's over for Rossi, he massively blew it. He might recover, but it's far from likely. This was not only a possibility from the beginning, it was actually likely. Rossi was in over his head, playing a game in a field with vast fortunes at stake. And effectively playing it alone. Predictable outcome. Rossi was tempted into fraud, into exaggeration of his results and into manipulating them in various ways, to make the devices seem more productive and more reliable. If Defkalion has actually done what is reported above, they are way ahead of him. As would be expected if someone with huge resources set to work on the problem. Rossi took many years to test his claimed thousand tries. They might have done that in a month! You just throw money and people at it! Once you believe that something might be there, and if you have the resources, it would practically be foolish not to look. And that is without industrial espionage. With it just absolutely not surprising. Expect from Defkalion: a patent, disclosing the catalyst. Very soon, delay could be quite harmful to their interests.
RE: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
From Abd: With some satisfaction, I suppose, I note that all those who defended Rossi's claim by supposing that Defkalion had tested the technology must now assume that either Rossi is lying or they were incorrect. I don't think Rossi is lying, though he could be. Fascinating. Indeed fascinating. Rossi's comments suggest to me that he is doing his absolute best to give everyone the impression that he is still in sole possession of his eCat technology. In regards to what Defkalion may be in possession of, I would speculate that it very well may be Rossi who is bending the facts just a tad. Meanwhile, from Rossi's POV, he must do everything he can to give the impression that only he knows the secret sauce formula. It's one of the best ways I can think of how one would go about trying to persuade a court of law that one is still the only rightful owner of the sauce recipe. After reading the fine print, however, it may turn out not necessarily to be the case. We shall see. Off to court we go.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On 2011-08-07 16:18, Jones Beene wrote: Well since this breakup information finally comes from Rossi himself, the earlier press release was apparently not a forgery. At any rate, it would be easy to misinterpret what this E-Cat breakup means, but it clearly means that Rossi does not realize that DGT may know his all-important secret. They have said as much. It may also mean that Rossi has been had. I found this very interesting comment by Daniele Passerini on his 22passi blog in the comment section of his latest post, which could partially explain what's going on. I Google-translated the parts in Italian: * * * Source short URL: http://goo.gl/osVkR This is the text of an anonymous email (and as such I have so far declined to publish it) that dates back to early July and I had a roundabout way. I think she trusted, even if they do not know the source. From them it appears: 1) that the Defkalion is in line to the development of Ni-H technology than previously stated; 2) that proceed in the development of reactors regardless Rossi long ago. After this email, I had pre-warned ... a series of reports from disparate sources, which confirm each other, I was led to predict a dramatic outcome of the report by August Defkalion Rossi. I was also told that Rossi had to have found a new partner in the U.S., much better than greek. And today, by surprise, it's little 'bit of the announcement that we have read. Here's the email in early July of the above: Defkalion has delivered several prototype reactors to the Greek Min. of Environment and Energy. The Ministry is preparing to license the equipment for use in the EU. They have done extensive testing of the performance and also to check for nuclear safety. This is a 4-part test regime costing millions of dollars. The first and most difficult phase was successful completed a couple of weeks ago. The other 3 parts should be finished at the end of the year. They will have to be completed or the machines cannot be licensed or sold. All of the government test procedures and results will have to be made public as part of the licensing procedure, and will be published by Defkalion as soon as the Ministry gives permission. Documents describing the test regime are available in Greek. I am trying to get them translated. These tests are thorough. The Greek government is dysfunctional and in deep trouble, but the engineers and scientists in their nuclear agencies are as professional and competent as the colleagues elsewhere in the EU or the U.S. There is no chance they have done months of testing and somehow they were fooled or bamboozled into thinking the machines are inputting 450 W and outputting 20 to 30 kW. That is out of the question. Defkalion has reactors ranging from kilowatt to megawatt ranges. All have been tested. The tests being performed by Rossi, Levi and the others in Italy have nothing to do with Defkalion. The people at Defkalion know less about Rossi's tests than I do. Their equipment, and the equipment at the Greek testing agencies, is the best that money can buy, and far better than anything Rossi uses. Their reactors are also far better than his. They licensed the technology from him years ago, and improved it beyond recognition. They have dozens of experts and hundreds of millions of dollars, and a board of directors that would be suitable for any Fortune 500 company, with extensive experience in industry. At this point I would say that there is a trade war (and perhaps more) in progress: only look for some cargo choppy waves on the sea surface and submarine fleets do not see many nationalities who are opposed to the depths unseen. This is why I repeat and I never tire of repeating to those who still are not convinced that we are dealing with new technologies, new energy sources, new physical principles with applications beyond our imagination, which only makes the mistake of not put together all the pieces of the puzzle ... or is in connection with those who fly under water, but this is a borderline case! ;) Cheers, S.A
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
At 12:31 PM 8/7/2011, Terry Blanton wrote: From Defkalion web page: Company Structure Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies (Global) Ltd., is based in Cyprus; it owns the contract signed with the inventor regarding the industrial secret with right of first refusal to sell globally except the US. http://www.defkalion-energy.com/profilehttp://www.defkalion-energy.com/profile end It surely implies that Rossi gave up the sauce recipe. Nope. It implies a contract with the inventor regarding the industrial secret. It does not state that the secret was disclosed. I'd guess that the the contract provided for disclosure at some time. If the secret *was* disclosed, Rossi may have a stronger case to sue them if they market a device based on that secret. But what if they, with a crash research program, or otherwise, discovered something *better*? They would then have an albatross, their contract with Rossi. Being highly skilled business people, possibly not above some manipulation, and being able to see quite clearly who Mr. Rossi was, they pushed his buttons in the right way to induce him to cancel the contract. Like shooting fish in a barrel, or taking candy from a baby. Reading some of Rossi's boasts about what would happen if interests, he called them snakes, tried to cheat him, he was making a very old mistake. If you are the fastest gun in the west, and really!, you don't brag about it, because it will encourage challenges and sooner or later, you will slip. And it only takes one slip, and it's over. I kept wondering why Rossi was talking on his blog at all. It wasn't helping him, it was a waste of his very valuable time, if he was going to deliver. The answer would be psychological. And the more Rossi did it, the more visible were his vulnerabilities. He might as well have said, If you want me to do X, push this button. Rossi could have and should have delegated response there to someone he trusted. If he trusts anyone!
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On 11-08-07 01:32 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Rossi, from his announcement, never trusted them with the catalyst. Therefore, if they did discover the catalyst, they did not obtain it from disclosure, and he's going to have a devil of a time trying to prove that they stole the process. What makes you think there is a catalyst? All we have is Rossi's word for it. The alleged catalyst has provided a very convenient means for preventing anyone else from event attempting a real replication. As such, it's been a powerful tool for Rossi ... whether it actually exists or not.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On 11-08-07 01:08 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: At 10:52 AM 8/7/2011, noone noone wrote: Perhaps Rossi saw how far they had advanced the technology, and got spooked. We don't know the whole story. We don't know what is true at this point. Before there is any sign that Defkalion is making a move, Rossi announces that he's terminating the contract. Then he talks about his attorney's being active. At what? Among all the things which have gone by, the activity by Rossi's attorneys is by far the *least* suspicious. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the first thing which happens when a contract is broken is the terminating party files suit to show that the other party violated the contract's terms. They do this in order to get out of the contract without triggering whatever draconian penalty clauses may exist, and in the hope of recouping losses associated with the debacle. The second thing which happens is that the other party files a counter suit, alleging that the first party violated the terms of the contract themselves, and they violated them earlier and in more egregious ways than the second party did. If the contract had been terminated without a lawsuit, well, *that* would have been suspicious!
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
At 12:34 PM 8/7/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Yup. Either Rossi is lying, or Defkalion is. It could not be more clear cut. Nope. That's just more assumption masquerading as proof. It's entirely possible that Defkalion is testing Hyperions, and Rossi did not provide them. It's possible that they did what was necessary to find what works, not waiting for Rossi, working alone, with very limited funding, to deliver. Jed, it would have taken chump change compared to what was going to be due to Rossi. What a damn circus. It is sad that cold fusion keeps ending up in controversy and fiascos. It's absolutely not surprising, Jed. I warned about allowing this to be associated with the science of cold fusion. None of this met scientific protocols for trusting new discoveries. Skepticism was completely appropriate, hence my odd alliance with Joshua Cude. I'd say it's time to start averting damage. It's time for people who support cold fusion to jump on the skeptical bandwagon. It's not necessary to claim that Rossi was a fraud, though that's my conclusion. It's not necessary to fall for the pseudo-skeptical argument that Rossi's claims were impossible. They were not impossible. But they were, indeed, appearing to be stronger and more reliable than anyone else had reported, by far. And skepticism about *that* was very proper. You ridiculed the skepticism, mistaking it for pseudoskepticism. I recommend, highly, acknowledging the error. I guarantee you, it won't hurt, or, at least, it will hurt far less than trying to continue in pretense. We may still hope that Ni-H reactors will be demonstrated and will go on sale soon. But we should not treat this as something proven and already accomplished, without proof and actual accomplishment, validated and confirmed. Normal science. Real skepticism is a crucial part of it! (There are other important parts, such as open-mindedness, etc.)
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
At 12:38 PM 8/7/2011, Jones Beene wrote: How do you turn your back on $100,000,000 (or more) simply on ego-driven impulse? 1. People do this. Rossi had a grandiose perception of himself and his abilities. From what he's stated in the past, he expects to prevail against all obstacles, no matter how great. 2. The contract probably provides for cancellation procedure. Rossi may not have yet provided the required notice, so his press release means nothing. If he's provided the required notice, expect Defkalion to say, Thanks. Sorry this didn't work out for you. Good luck. As they eat his lunch. (I'm currently assuming that Defkalion has not been lying about demonstrating Hyperions. They could have been, it's not impossible. I must point out again that, so far, there is no reason to believe that any of their announcements are legally required to be true.)
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
From Abd, ... Expect from Defkalion: a patent, disclosing the catalyst. Very soon, delay could be quite harmful to their interests. And obviously from Rossi's POV, disclosure of the catalyst during what is assumed will be an interesting legal battle would be the last thing he would want revealed to the world. Once the cat is out of the bag (no pun intended), what other cards would Rossi have left to play. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
These are very interesting developments indeed... And not unexpected. As Einstein said, Without morality in out actions, there is no salvation for mankind. It's hard enough finding business people who have a high level of integrity when times are good, but given the dismal state of affairs in the world today, especially in Greece, Russia and many other countries, people are desperate, and desperate people do desperate (or devious) things. I think Jones' speculation that it was Defkalion's intention from the very beginning to play Rossi until they had what they needed from him, is the most likely scenario here. Pretty rotten and despicable behavior, but not at all a surprise... There are cultures in the world that have no problem whatsoever of lying and misleading the other party in a business deal... Their attitude is if you are too stupid or naïve or idealistic in your business dealings, that's your problem... And they will exploit you as much as you are willing to put up with. Rossi had very good reason to be secretive... -Mark
RE: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Abd said... Rossi could have and should have delegated response there to someone he trusted. If he trusts anyone! Indeed, if I were Rossi, I'd have a hard time trusting anyone... Assuming that Defkalion has 'played' Rossi, what I'd like to know is if Stremmenos is complicit in this deception... I guess his years as a politician have corrupted his integrity as a scientist. Isn't anyone immune from the corruption of politics? All the more reason for term limits... -Mark
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: What makes you think there is a catalyst? All we have is Rossi's word for it. The alleged catalyst has provided a very convenient means for preventing anyone else from event attempting a real replication. As such, it's been a powerful tool for Rossi ... whether it actually exists or not. Peter has been saying this all along. I agree that the catalyst is a red herring. I think that the geometry and cleansing of the nickel is key to the reaction. T
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Reading the announcement on Rossi's blog it seems that he wants to underline the fact that he did not pass any secret (voluntarily) to DGT. So to say that he want to go on the industrial espionage road for the legal battle. Probably he feels his shoulders backed by the US partners. mic Il giorno 07/ago/2011 20:07, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net ha scritto: These are very interesting developments indeed... And not unexpected. As Einstein said, Without morality in out actions, there is no salvation for mankind. It's hard enough finding business people who have a high level of integrity when times are good, but given the dismal state of affairs in the world today, especially in Greece, Russia and many other countries, people are desperate, and desperate people do desperate (or devious) things. I think Jones' speculation that it was Defkalion's intention from the very beginning to play Rossi until they had what they needed from him, is the most likely scenario here. Pretty rotten and despicable behavior, but not at all a surprise... There are cultures in the world that have no problem whatsoever of lying and misleading the other party in a business deal... Their attitude is if you are too stupid or naïve or idealistic in your business dealings, that's your problem... And they will exploit you as much as you are willing to put up with. Rossi had very good reason to be secretive... -Mark
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:14 PM, Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Assuming that Defkalion has 'played' Rossi, what I'd like to know is if Stremmenos is complicit in this deception... I guess his years as a politician have corrupted his integrity as a scientist. Isn't anyone immune from the corruption of politics? All the more reason for term limits... There might be no deceit. Defkalion might indeed have licensed Rossi technology and, somewhere in the development process, simply discovered a better way to skin an ecat. It happens all the time. Defkalion's technology could be separately patentable and Rossi is only mentioned as prior art. T
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
What makes you think there is a catalyst? That was my thought too... That even without a catalyst or loading of hydrogen into the nickel, a few degrees of excess heat could be gotten with a low-cost replication attempt. I tried and got no results at 20bars of hydrogen and 250C heat. I also used activated charcoal and other methods to increase the exposed nickel surface area. So.. there is at least some trick to get a reaction. On the other hand, maybe the catalyst is one of the many previously guessed at and is known by Defkalion. People, if you have the means to attempt replication, please join the fun... - Brad Lowe
[Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
Greetings Vortex-l I am not sure IF my thoughts on Rossi and DKL are even logical BUT what if a major world entity wants all of Rossi s patent rights. Would his actions then be logical...merely a hypothesis. Thoughts are welcomed. Ron Kita, Chiralex
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
On 2011-08-07 20:56, ecat builder wrote: with a low-cost replication attempt. I tried and got no results at 20bars of hydrogen and 250C heat. I also used activated charcoal and other methods to increase the exposed nickel surface area. So.. there is at least some trick to get a reaction. On the other hand, maybe the catalyst is one of the many previously guessed at and is known by Defkalion. People, if you have the means to attempt replication, please join the fun... Ecat builder, have you ever tried reading Piantelli's 2010 patent for potential tips on replication? It's quite detailed. There aren't catalysts involved, but here reactions are supposedly triggered by impulses. This very thing could be the catalyst in Rossi's case. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/PiantelliSmethodforp.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Quite impressive for a company we were told was thrown together hastily this spring. Sent from my iPhone. On Aug 7, 2011, at 13:39, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: They have dozens of experts and hundreds of millions of dollars, and a board of directors that would be suitable for any Fortune 500 company, with extensive experience in industry.
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Ecat builder, have you ever tried reading Piantelli's 2010 patent for Thanks S.A., yes, that is a nice reference. If I had more time and a real lab capable of 10^-9 bar and 500C I would try... Was hoping a little transmutation could be achieved without impulses and pre-loading. If anyone knows of replications of the Piantelli patent, let me know. - Brad
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Brain Ahern's results are strong evidence that anomalous thermal gain is possible with nano nickel. From there on, it is a struggle to increase the gain. IOW - the HUGE step is to get to rock-solid COP1. This is a done deal. From there on it's a matter of engineering. In Brian's results the trigger temperature at 20 bar would be ~350C. He is getting only 15 watts of excess - compared to Rossi's much higher gain. Ecat builder did not get high enough on the trigger temp and that will guarantee a null result. The reason probably related to the Curie temperature of nickel. Of course, Rossi says he can do it at lower temp and that would be due to the catalyst. Personally, I think there is definitely a catalyst - and I think we know what it is. It is a Mills catalyst are there are several prominent papers on it from the time period of 2002-2004. Tests are underway to confirm this. If it proves out - thanks will go to Ron Wormus (by way of Randell Mills) for the tip. Don't worry, it will be disclosed, but there is no reason to do so till there is confirmation. Look how many false leads are out there now. Jones -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa ecat builder wrote: with a low-cost replication attempt. I tried and got no results at 20bars of hydrogen and 250C heat. I also used activated charcoal and other methods to increase the exposed nickel surface area. So.. there is at least some trick to get a reaction. On the other hand, maybe the catalyst is one of the many previously guessed at and is known by Defkalion. People, if you have the means to attempt replication, please join the fun... Ecat builder, have you ever tried reading Piantelli's 2010 patent for potential tips on replication? It's quite detailed. There aren't catalysts involved, but here reactions are supposedly triggered by impulses. This very thing could be the catalyst in Rossi's case. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/PiantelliSmethodforp.pdf Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]: POLL CLOSED -- thanks
At 09:46 AM 8/5/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: results will be at: http://www.zoomerang.com/Shared/SharedResultsPasswordPage.aspx?ID=L26VBL22QQQG I closed the poll -- in part because any future replies would be heavily skewed by the Rossi/Defkalion news. The fake/real spilt wasn't quite as extreme as before -- I'll post some combined results on Monday.
RE: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means : more Rossi posts
Rossi's been making frequent posts -- one of his latest: Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 2:22 PM Dear Georgehants: Prof. Stremmenos has tested our E-Cats many times in Bologna and has made a very good work; I do not know what has been done in Greece from Deflalion with the documents made by Prof. Stremmenos; also other officers of defkalion made tests in Bologna, for this purpose. The work has been good, as well as has been good the work that Defkalion made to get authorizations, I suppose, even if it has never been my business; the problems which caused the cancellation of the contract are just financial. By the way, the report of the last test made by the Greek Scientist Christos Stremmenos has been published, the work has been very good, and my personal relationship with Prof. Stremmenos is good. We hope in future to make again a good work in Greece. When a verdict will be issued regarding the suit in course between Defkalion and us will be published all will be clear. Now I prefer not to enter in particulars, but, again, the issue is just financial, not personal, nor technological, nor scientific. Warm Regards, A.R. Andrea Rossi August 7th, 2011 at 2:31 PM Dear Luca T: I was in the States until 2 days ago, I will return there very soon; we will communicate the start location the day before the start itself. Warmest Regards, A.R. Also : Q: Also, what about licensing and regulations in the U.S? Because we all know its coming. You require a license to do just about anything other than breathe in the U.S., and I think theyll license that too soon A: Our USA Customer is taking care of this issue,
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
fasten your seat belts... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XypVcv77WBU Harry
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
Piantelli, Rossi, Defkalion, big US investor... copious hot air... never any facts... so it's all electric heaters in drag... we're all getting old since 1989, gawking at this circus parade. In mutual service, Rich Murray
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ron Kita chiralex.k...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings Vortex-l I am not sure IF my thoughts on Rossi and DKL are even logical BUT what if a major world entity wants all of Rossi s patent rights. Would his actions then be logical...merely a hypothesis. Thoughts are welcomed. EXXON!
[Vo]:Rossi was there at the press conference when Defkalion claimed they have the technology
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Yup. Either Rossi is lying, or Defkalion is. It could not be more clear cut. Nope. That's just more assumption masquerading as proof. It's entirely possible that Defkalion is testing Hyperions, and Rossi did not provide them. Defkalion held a press conference with Rossi as the guest of honor. Their presentation and their White Paper said: The technology is currently in its final stages of becoming an industrialized and commercially viable prototype. This forms the basis for a broad range of products under the commercial name Hyperion. The current range of products produce from 6 to 30 times more heat than the energy it takes to run the machine. http://www.defkalion-energy.com/White_Paper_DGT.pdf So Rossi knew they claim they are producing energy. If he did not provide them with the technology, why didn't he object to what they were saying? Now he says: Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greece and no E-Cat has ever been brought, produced, or assembled in the territory of the Ellenic Republic: so not only the technology is still fully owned by Andrea Rossi’s company, Leonardo Corporation, but it still remains a well preserved industrial secret. I do not see how this can be construed as anything but contradicting the White Paper. One side or the other is lying, or crazy. What a damn circus. It is sad that cold fusion keeps ending up in controversy and fiascos. It's absolutely not surprising, Jed. I warned about allowing this to be associated with the science of cold fusion. What is that supposed to mean? I did not allow this to be associated. It is associated! It is cold fusion, without a doubt. Or a gigantic scam I suppose. But I am not the gate keeper over what constitutes cold fusion, which is what it is, nor am I a police agency charged with preventing scams. Heck, Defkalion's White Paper claims it is not cold fusion. They want to avoid the association. But they cannot. Anyone can see it is cold fusion. None of this met scientific protocols for trusting new discoveries. Skepticism was completely appropriate, hence my odd alliance with Joshua Cude. Skepticism is always appropriate, but what you and Cude have been exhibiting is not skepticism. It is mindless nit-picking and making excuses. For example, when the temperature difference reportedly stayed stable at 5 deg C for 18 hours, you claim that is not an adequate description and you demand time-sequenced data because the source of the reaction is unknown. That makes zero sense. If you want a time sequenced graph, get yourself some graph paper, write 5 deg C on the left vertical scale, hours 1 through 18 on the horizontal scale, and then draw a flat line across it. Voila. You will then have as much information as time-sequenced data would give you. Obviously, if this is all a scam or insanity, with Levi in cahoots with the scam, then it makes no difference whether he gives us one number for the entire 18 hours and says it was stable, or whether he gives use 64,800 data points one for each second. Either one could as easily be fake. Additional detail proves nothing. I'd say it's time to start averting damage. It's time for people who support cold fusion to jump on the skeptical bandwagon. It is not my job to avoid damage to Defkalion or Rossi. I have always been skeptical of all claims -- more than most people. What I do not do is invent contrived reasons and fantasies to reject data. Barring fraud, I accept that a steady 5 deg C is an adequate description of a temperature no matter what the source of that temperature is. Whether the source is an electric heating pad or a total mystery is 100% utterly and completely irrelevant, and when you say not so that is because you are scrambling to find an excuse to distance yourself from the claim. A pseudo-technical reason. If you don't believe it because Rossi is a dodgy person, go ahead and that. Just don't pretend you have some sophisticated technical reason. It's not necessary to claim that Rossi was a fraud, though that's my conclusion. It's not necessary to fall for the pseudo-skeptical argument that Rossi's claims were impossible. They were not impossible. But they were, indeed, appearing to be stronger and more reliable than anyone else had reported, by far. And skepticism about *that* was very proper. Nonsense. They are no different from any other, just on a larger scale. Not that much larger, either. Fleischmann and Pons had dozens of runs of stable heat at ~100 W lasting up to 3 months. By the way, Terry Blanton's point that Defkalion may have invented their way around Rossi is well taken. Such things happen all the time, as he says. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On 08/07/2011 05:53 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ron Kitachiralex.k...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings Vortex-l I am not sure IF my thoughts on Rossi and DKL are even logical BUT what if a major world entity wants all of Rossi s patent rights. Would his actions then be logical...merely a hypothesis. Thoughts are welcomed. EXXON! Selling it to the best bidder, of course. That makes complete sense, and I think is consistent with previous developments and information we have about the players. Here's a probable scenario, then: Rossi in fact discovered something which dramatically improves the efficiency of Ni-H exothermically reactions. As is the case with other cold fusion techniques and experiments, it probably does not work always. It still needs further development, and that can even take a couple of years. Instead of continuing with the research, he decided to announce it, making waves as big as possible, to sell his discovery to the best bidder. Who will probably bury it, by the way. He advanced with the company, the building of plants, etc. to attract a buyer as big as possible. Now that the buyer has arrived, he's parting ways. In the future, with the technology effectively buried, we'll be left with the impression that all was just a big, although somewhat incomprehensible, scam. Which it is, in a sense. But not in the strictest sense. Now that makes sense to me. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part. And of course too, if the improvement Rossi discovered is real, there can be really unexpected developments, like some other agency rediscovering it on their own, etc. Regards, Mauro
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: Instead of continuing with the research, he decided to announce it, making waves as big as possible, to sell his discovery to the best bidder. Who will probably bury it, by the way. Unfortunately, they cannot bury it deep enough. As Steven said, the eCat is out of the bag. Ahern has already shown this. I think Rossi understood the issue here. He has a working technology; but, he does not understand why it works. He was willing to pay the UoB to study the process. He understood that, once the process is thoroughly understood, the optimum operating point (Swartz) may then be determined. If the patent does not state the OOP IP, it is open to a new patent and Rossi is rendered to prior art. T
Re: [Vo]:Rossi was there at the press conference when Defkalion claimed they have the technology
I meant to write: If you don't believe it because Rossi is a dodgy person, go ahead and SAY that. Just don't pretend you have some sophisticated technical reason. It is perfectly valid to reject a claim because the person making the claim looks like a crook. That is not a technical reason, but it is rational and justified. What Abd is doing is making a rational judgement based on personality and then imagining he is deciding based on a technical problem; i.e., if you don't know the source of heat, you can't be sure the thermometer really is steady for 18 hours. Yes, you can be sure of that. Just keep an eye on it. What Cude, Robert Park and the editors of Sci. Am. are doing is rejecting all cold fusion claims no matter how legitimate the researcher may appear to be. These people have no scientific basis for their opinions. They are irrationally opposed, the way a creationist opposes evolution. Such behavior is widespread. It is not surprising or unusual. You will not learn anything from reading what such people write because they know nothing about the subject and they have no basis for their beliefs. I am on record expressing grave reservations about Rossi's personality and his flamboyant claims. I have said this time after time. I have pointed out blatant contradictions in his claims. I have said that I believe his claims despite this. I believe the temperature difference was a steady 5 deg C for 18 hours, because I assume Levi and others are credible. I could be wrong about that, naturally. I have never denied that it *might be* a scam. That seems unlikely, albeit somewhat more likely today than it did yesterday! I also believe the claim because many cold fusion reactions have produced stable high temperatures. In some cases, you can summarize 3 months of data with a single stable temperature difference. There will be some fluctuations of course, but pretty much a flat line. Since we know that cold fusion can do this, there is no reason to think Rossi's version of cold fusion cannot. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:53:08 -0400: Hi, [snip] On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ron Kita chiralex.k...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings Vortex-l I am not sure IF my thoughts on Rossi and DKL are even logical BUT what if a major world entity wants all of Rossi s patent rights. Would his actions then be logical...merely a hypothesis. Thoughts are welcomed. EXXON! A couple of months back I informed Ford of the existence of Rossi's technology and suggested it might be useable in cars. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Rossi and Defkalion Split Up RUMORMONGERING - You got evidence, post it!
Problems... if not Major, then are minor, albeit many, however, now ever, since obviously these very little crooked black ma r k s right now, wrong now, occupy awareness, then, confusion (not just about cold fusion) is being imagined within single entire unified creative fractal hyperinfinity, so confusion imagined has a before and an after, ie, confusion is temporary -- WS: ...Our revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on, and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. In mutual service, Rich Murray
[Vo]:Re: Rossi was there at the press conference when Defkalion claimed they have the technology
I have said that I believe his claims despite this. I believe the temperature difference was a steady 5 deg C for 18 hours, because I assume Levi and others are credible With a temperature probe INSIDE the black box. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 11:37 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi was there at the press conference when Defkalion claimed they have the technology I meant to write: If you don't believe it because Rossi is a dodgy person, go ahead and SAY that. Just don't pretend you have some sophisticated technical reason. It is perfectly valid to reject a claim because the person making the claim looks like a crook. That is not a technical reason, but it is rational and justified. What Abd is doing is making a rational judgement based on personality and then imagining he is deciding based on a technical problem; i.e., if you don't know the source of heat, you can't be sure the thermometer really is steady for 18 hours. Yes, you can be sure of that. Just keep an eye on it. What Cude, Robert Park and the editors of Sci. Am. are doing is rejecting all cold fusion claims no matter how legitimate the researcher may appear to be. These people have no scientific basis for their opinions. They are irrationally opposed, the way a creationist opposes evolution. Such behavior is widespread. It is not surprising or unusual. You will not learn anything from reading what such people write because they know nothing about the subject and they have no basis for their beliefs. I am on record expressing grave reservations about Rossi's personality and his flamboyant claims. I have said this time after time. I have pointed out blatant contradictions in his claims. I have said that I believe his claims despite this. I believe the temperature difference was a steady 5 deg C for 18 hours, because I assume Levi and others are credible. I could be wrong about that, naturally. I have never denied that it might be a scam. That seems unlikely, albeit somewhat more likely today than it did yesterday! I also believe the claim because many cold fusion reactions have produced stable high temperatures. In some cases, you can summarize 3 months of data with a single stable temperature difference. There will be some fluctuations of course, but pretty much a flat line. Since we know that cold fusion can do this, there is no reason to think Rossi's version of cold fusion cannot. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
At 01:50 PM 8/7/2011, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: On 11-08-07 01:32 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Rossi, from his announcement, never trusted them with the catalyst. Therefore, if they did discover the catalyst, they did not obtain it from disclosure, and he's going to have a devil of a time trying to prove that they stole the process. What makes you think there is a catalyst? I don't. However, lots of people have worked with Ni-H, without such striking results as was claimed. If there are improved results -- that's if -- then there is probably something being done that hasn't been disclosed. All we have is Rossi's word for it. That's right. The alleged catalyst has provided a very convenient means for preventing anyone else from event attempting a real replication. As such, it's been a powerful tool for Rossi ... whether it actually exists or not. It's a completely feeble excuse. There was no open and sane reason to disallow black box tests.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi was there at the press conference when Defkalion claimed they have the technology
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: What Cude, Robert Park and the editors of Sci. Am. are doing is rejecting all cold fusion claims no matter how legitimate the researcher may appear to be. As a side note, Park continues to eschew CF in What's New. http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN11/index.html That speaks loads to me. T
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
At 01:56 PM 8/7/2011, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: On 11-08-07 01:08 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: At 10:52 AM 8/7/2011, noone noone wrote: Perhaps Rossi saw how far they had advanced the technology, and got spooked. We don't know the whole story. We don't know what is true at this point. Before there is any sign that Defkalion is making a move, Rossi announces that he's terminating the contract. Then he talks about his attorney's being active. At what? Among all the things which have gone by, the activity by Rossi's attorneys is by far the *least* suspicious. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the first thing which happens when a contract is broken is the terminating party files suit to show that the other party violated the contract's terms. They do this in order to get out of the contract without triggering whatever draconian penalty clauses may exist, and in the hope of recouping losses associated with the debacle. The second thing which happens is that the other party files a counter suit, alleging that the first party violated the terms of the contract themselves, and they violated them earlier and in more egregious ways than the second party did. If the contract had been terminated without a lawsuit, well, *that* would have been suspicious! But we don't know that the contract has actually been terminated. We don't know who violated the contract, we don't know the terms. For legal action to start immediately is, indeed, suspicious. However, sure, Rossi could be preparing for legal action. Especially if Defkalion actually acted in a way that violated the contract. However, in that case, a more normal suit would be for specific performance. Termination usually ends the matter. And then there could be a suit for wrongful termination, which would come from the other side, I'd have thought. Unless they wanted the contract terminated.
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 5:38 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: A couple of months back I informed Ford of the existence of Rossi's technology and suggested it might be useable in cars. God in the safe and Ford on the shelves. - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, Ch. 17
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means
fromWordPress no-re...@wordpress.com to rmfor...@gmail.com dateSun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:34 AM subject [New post] Rossi's Scientific Failure in Seven Steps 10:34 AM (4 hours ago) Rossi's Scientific Failure in Seven Steps Steven B. Krivit | August 7, 2011 at 17:34 | Categories: Uncategorized | URL: http://wp.me/pV5rZ-f0 Andrea Rossi is the creator of a device he calls the Energy Catalyzer, or E-Cat. Together with Sergio Focardi, professor emeritus at the University of Bologna, and Giuseppe Levi, a professor in the university’s Department of Physics, the trio claimed a low-energy nuclear reaction device that produced extraordinarily large amounts of excess heat. In fact, Rossi had promoted the idea as a soon-to-be-available commercial device. The complete list of New Energy Times reports on this topic is here. The Rossi group's primary energy claim was based on vaporization of virtually all inlet water into steam. The group had two choices to validate its claim. Option 1 was to verify that liquid water did not flow out of the device and down the drain. The group made no such measurements. The characteristics of steam output observed in the June 14, 2011, and April 28, 2011, experiments are consistent with substantial amounts of unvaporized inlet water present in the output steam. Option 2, which the group attempted, was to measure steam quality. However, it used a device that, according to the manufacturer, was not designed or suitable for the task. That device was designed to measure only humidity of air. Thus, the group had no accurate measurements of the amount or quality of steam produced and therefore no experimental evidence on which to base its extraordinary energy claim. The group ran one experiment below the boiling point of water; however, it did not make and does not intend to release a report on the results of that test. Seven Steps 1. Rossi Group's Extraordinary Claim About Energy Production The primary claim was based on virtually 100 percent vaporization of inlet water into steam. 2. Video Recordings of Steam Production The characteristics of steam output observed in the June 14, 2011, and April 28, 2011, experiments are consistent with substantial amounts of unvaporized inlet water present in the output steam. 3. Presence of Unvaporized Water in Device Output -Water can leave as liquid by overflowing through the outlet hose. -Water can leave as tiny droplets, thus lowering steam quality. 4. Measurement of Unvaporized Water in Device Output No measurements were performed to verify that unvaporized water did not flow out of the device, through the hose, and down the drain. 5. Claims of Steam Quality Measurements The Rossi group claimed to have accurately measured steam quality. The chemist it used to perform these measurements did not use a detector that was designed for or capable of measuring steam quality. 6. Device Used to Attempt Steam Quality Measurement - Question to manufacturer: What is the capability of this device to measure steam quality? - Response from manufacturer: “None. It is not suited for steam quality measurement.” 7. Conclusion Without Sufficient Experimental Facts Because the group used an unsuitable device to measure steam quality, it had no quantitative facts about the amount or quality of steam. As a result, the group could not know the amount of energy production within an order of magnitude. As with any scientific claim, the burden to provide convincing evidence rests with the claimant. In mutual service, Rich Murray
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On 08/07/2011 06:34 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Mauro Lacyma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: Instead of continuing with the research, he decided to announce it, making waves as big as possible, to sell his discovery to the best bidder. Who will probably bury it, by the way. Unfortunately, they cannot bury it deep enough. As Steven said, the eCat is out of the bag. Unfortunately for them, I suppose. Ahern has already shown this. I think Rossi understood the issue here. He has a working technology; but, he does not understand why it works. He was willing to pay the UoB to study the process. He understood that, once the process is thoroughly understood, the optimum operating point (Swartz) may then be determined. If the patent does not state the OOP IP, it is open to a new patent and Rossi is rendered to prior art. Any references for Swartz? I see. He's delaying the patenting, basically because he does not have anything really patentable. The secret catalyst is exactly that. Even for him. Regards, Mauro
Re: [Vo]:direct link to Informavore's Sunday
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 3:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: excuse me, I forgot to send: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/08/informavores-sunday-no-467.html Always something to think about. This link: Outstandingly interesting: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-08-03/; Caused me to search on Andrea Rossi with the following result: Your search - andrea rossi - did not match any documents. Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords. Fascinating! And the article on ESP had a somewhat unflattering piccy of Shermer in front of the A.R.E. facility. The article reminded me of Bill Murray in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Rza0c6hIg Allegedly, Ghostbusters' Dan Aykroyd's character, Dr. Raymond Stantz, was supposed to represent Dr. Hal Puthoff and Harold Ramis' Dr. Egon Spengler, Russell Targ during their real life investigation in the CIA's Project SCANATE. T
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: Any references for Swartz? Sure. That was a reference to discussions by Michael Swartz, who publishes: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html He sponsors the MIT Colloquiums you see mentioned here sometimes. I think he and Larry Forsley came up with the CF OOP term, or so they claim. :-) T
Re: [Vo]:A possible hypothesis for Rossi and Greece
On 08/07/2011 07:34 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Mauro Lacyma...@lacy.com.ar wrote: Any references for Swartz? Sure. That was a reference to discussions by Michael Swartz, who publishes: http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html He sponsors the MIT Colloquiums you see mentioned here sometimes. I think he and Larry Forsley came up with the CF OOP term, or so they claim. :-) :-) Nice reference. Thanks!
[Vo]:NyTeknik coverage of Rossi - Defkalion split
Good coverage. You should read this: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece It will be updated tomorrow with comments from Defkalion. Note also the comments about Krivit and steam enthalpy in the last paragraphs. - Jed
[Vo]:Temperature probe location in 18-hour test
Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: I have said that I believe his claims despite this. I believe the temperature difference was a steady 5 deg C for 18 hours, because I assume Levi and others are credible With a temperature probe INSIDE the black box. Putting the temperature probe INSIDE the black box would make the heat go away. The apparent heat would be zero. The inlet is no farther from the reaction site then the outlet probe, as you see in the photo. So, if the two temperature probes had been inside the black box, they would have registered the same temperature. The Delta T would be zero (no heat). Also, the inlet temperature would have been higher than tap water. Since the inlet registers tap water temperature, and the Delta T is greater than zero, they must both be far enough away from the reactor to measure a real temperature difference. If both probes are somewhat inside the box, closer than they should be, this will make the Delta T smaller than it really is. If the inlet was outside of the box and outlet inside it, that would cause observers to overestimate heat. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:What the Breakup Means : more Rossi posts
Alan: Thanks for keeping an eye on Rossi's blog for us. That is helpful. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik coverage of Rossi - Defkalion split
NyTeknik maintains that the liquid mass is at most 10% (steam quality at least 90%) and because of this there is no significant error in measuring the heat output using the steam.
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik coverage of Rossi - Defkalion split
It may come for a surprise for many, but there is no such thing as water boiler that produces a steam with quality much less than 95%, in close to normal pressure. Very wet steam just is not stable state, because surface tension makes sure that wetness in steam is quickly converted into liquid water droplets. —Jouni On Aug 8, 2011 3:30 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: NyTeknik maintains that the liquid mass is at most 10% (steam quality at least 90%) and because of this there is no significant error in measuring the heat output using the steam. Well, this is not NyTeknik's claim. They quote someone else. The article says: Ny Teknik turned to Professor Björn Palm, Head of the Energy Technology Division at the Royal Institute of Technology, doing research on heat transfer by evaporation. Based on the given dimensions and geometry, he gave his assessment of the situation: Any air in the tube is driven out of the flowing steam. This means that at the outlet there is pure steam, possibly with a little water droplets that come with the flow from the liquid surface. However, I cannot imagine that this would affect the 'effective' enthalpy of vaporization. From other cases with evaporation in tubes I would guess that the steam quality is at least 90%. This is in line with what I have heard from other experts. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik coverage of Rossi - Defkalion split
At 07:58 PM 8/7/2011, Daniel Rocha wrote: NyTeknik maintains that the liquid mass is at most 10% (steam quality at least 90%) and because of this there is no significant error in measuring the heat output using the steam. That's based on a steam expert, apparently, who has probably never seen, in his entire career, a boiler that is designed so that feed water spills out. So he doesn't consider the possibility. He only thinks of tiny droplets that will normally form from the boiling process. That's where 10%% comes from. But if you spill input water into the outlet opening through which substantial steam is flowing, you will get *very* wet steam. It will be atomized there, blown into smithereens by the steam flow through that small opening.
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik coverage of Rossi - Defkalion split
At 08:29 PM 8/7/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Well, this is not NyTeknik's claim. They quote someone else. The article says: [...] From other cases with evaporation in tubes I would guess that the steam quality is at least 90%. This is in line with what I have heard from other experts. That's right. But now ask those experts what will happen if the feed water spills into the outlet tube. They have never seen such a thing. Nobody would design a boiler to do that, unless they want to make *really wet steam.*
Re: [Vo]:NyTeknik coverage of Rossi - Defkalion split
At 10:09 PM 8/7/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: It may come for a surprise for many, but there is no such thing as water boiler that produces a steam with quality much less than 95%, in close to normal pressure. Very wet steam just is not stable state, because surface tension makes sure that wetness in steam is quickly converted into liquid water droplets. Uh, Jouni, the wetness in steam is liquid water droplets. What did you think it was?
Re: [Vo]:direct link to Informavore's Sunday
I have met Mike Shermer here in Cluj and have tried later to e- discuss with him re Cold Fusion/LENR with very limited success. By the way, Rossi's E-cat is a PR disaster for the field. What could I write about this subject- for SKEPTIC in order to convince people thta LENR is a viable energy source, as long as the author does not know how it works and why and prtomotes catalytic mysticism? I am reading SKEPTIC for other reasons. Peter On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 3:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: excuse me, I forgot to send: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/08/informavores-sunday-no-467.html Always something to think about. This link: Outstandingly interesting: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-08-03/; Caused me to search on Andrea Rossi with the following result: Your search - andrea rossi - did not match any documents. Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Try fewer keywords. Fascinating! And the article on ESP had a somewhat unflattering piccy of Shermer in front of the A.R.E. facility. The article reminded me of Bill Murray in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4Rza0c6hIg Allegedly, Ghostbusters' Dan Aykroyd's character, Dr. Raymond Stantz, was supposed to represent Dr. Hal Puthoff and Harold Ramis' Dr. Egon Spengler, Russell Targ during their real life investigation in the CIA's Project SCANATE. T -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
