Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Joshua Street]

On 7/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use,
particularly when in multiples.


I can't speak for AT users per se, but it sure is helpful when
browsing on my mobile device (a Sony Ericsson V630i... not a PDA, so
scrolling is that much more painful).

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[WSG] Equal Height Columns/OTL background images

[Joshua Street]

Hi all,

I've got this design that requires equal height columns *and*
background images positioned at the bottom of each column. I'm using
the One True Layout Equal Height Columns technique, but can't for the
life of me figure out how to prevent a bottom-aligned background image
from disappearing into the 30thousand pixel padding void the technique
depends upon.

The heights are fluid, the widths is fixed.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Any help appreciated!

Josh

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Re: [WSG] Opera for Nintendo Wii and CSS

[Joshua Street]

On 10/25/07, Jixor - Stephen I <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seeing as it looks like your developing for the browser without actually
> having a Wii. I believe the PAL resolution is 480p (720x480). Obviously
> also just take care not to have anything too fancy as it may be
> difficult to interact with.

NTSC is 420p/i, PAL has 576 lines of vertical resolution. Also 720
wide. It will display at 25Hz at full-frame resolution, but I doubt
very much whether most video content on the web is even approaching
25fps, much less that the Wii is capable of rendering full-frame (i.e.
not-interlaced) web video without hardware accelleration... which it
might have, but not that I've heard of. I seem to recall a friend
using his Wii to playback Youtube content, so it certainly can deal
with video in some capacity... just don't go pushing tremendous frame
rates or high-def H264 content ;-)

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Re: [WSG] Testing emails for Outlook 2007

[Joshua Street]

On 11/7/07, Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wondering if anyone has found a clever way of testing your HTML
> emails for Outlook 2007? I don't have Vista and can't see myself
> buying it just yet!

Office 2007 runs fine on XP, with the new stupid Word rendering engine
and all. And assuming you don't buy an OEM copy the license will be
valid on Vista if you ever do upgrade (and if you DO buy an OEM copy
and upgrade to Vista on the same hardware, it's still valid).

If you're regularly testing for Outlook '07, probably a worthwhile
investment over remote-hosted services. That said I've got no hard
numbers on usage stats for it... we're testing for it, but it's
possibly not significant just yet.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx is a useful resource.

Hope this helps

Josh


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Re: [WSG] Testing emails for Outlook 2007

[Joshua Street]

On 11/7/07, Mohamed Jama <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You could always open the page in word document and if everything looks
> fine there it will look fine in outlook 2007 since its using MS Word to
> render!

Problem with that is potential differences between Word HTML rendering
2003 - 2007. I haven't really looked into it but it would stand to
reason there may be differences... they stupidly thought it good
enough to be the sole renderer for the most widely used email client
on the planet, so you'd at least hope it improved...


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Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate

[Joshua Street]

http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/all-older.html

That's the official source.

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for your replies to this thread last week. I'm on a PC today
> and trying to get both versions of Firefox running, the only issue is,
> I can't find where to download version 2 of Firefox anymore! Mozilla
> have made it very hard to find previous versions
>
> Does anyone know where you can get version 2?!
>
> Cheers
>
> 2008/6/19 Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > select custom install and install it to another directory (something like
> /Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side.
> >
> > You can do this with Opera too.
> > :)
> > Paul
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] object element in front of all content

[Joshua Street]

Why not just use a transitional doctype?

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Robin Gorry  wrote:

>  Hi All,
>
>
>
> I am putting together a basic cross browser wysiwyg using the object
> element instead of an iframe to display the html, as the object element is
> standards compliant.
>
> The object is used to display another html page like so:
>
>
>
>  data="test_page/test.htm" type="text/html" >
>
>   
>
>
>
> However my problem is with IE, when I open my floating div for a dialog box
> it renders behind the object and any amount of z-index toggling or adding <
> *param* name="wmode" value="*opaque*">; (which works or flash) doesn't
> work.
>
>
>
> Does anyone have a solution to this or do I just have to work around it?
> Like so:
>
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
>  data="test_page/bluemoo.htm" type="text/html" >
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
> Although this would be a big branch for ie.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
> Robin.
>
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Re: [WSG] website fonts

[Joshua Street]

Adding to what Tim said,
It's possible that you're experiencing problems with Helvetica just because
of a typo (you had written Helvitica). Also, it does not come with Windows
Vista or Microsoft Office.

Hope this helps!

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Tim Snadden  wrote:

>
> On 22/06/2009, at 3:58 PM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:
>
>  hi.
>> just looked at my fonts.
>> need the following fonts:
>>
>> arial, helvitica, sans-serif and verdana.
>> do not have these fonts for windows vista.
>> think that was the problem, why not saying the name.
>> can you help?
>>
>
> Hi Marvin - I'm going to assume that you are running Windows. If this is
> the case then it is *highly* unlikely that you don't have at least arial
> from that list. The other thing to bear in mind is that 'sans-serif' is not
> a font but is a style or family of fonts that share a particular look (they
> don't have 'serifs' which are little flicks at the end of letter forms).
>
> I haven't seen your actual code but if your HTML is correctly pointing to a
> CSS file and your CSS is using a valid font declaration then it should work.
> If it doesn't then there may be something up with your operating system
> thinking that fonts are in a different place to where they really are or
> maybe something up with your Jaws setup.
>
> When you specify fonts with CSS the usual pattern is to list your fonts in
> the order that you prefer. Each one is a fallback position if the prior one
> doesn't exist on the system. Normally the last one in the list is
> 'sans-serif' (or 'serif' etc.). This is essentially saying that if you don't
> have *any* of the listed fonts on the system then use whatever is the
> default 'sans-serif' font.
>
> I hope that helps. Tim
>
>
>
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[WSG] Outlook 2010

[Joshua Street]

Fellow web-standards geeks,

We have a problem! Outlook 2010, according to Campaign Monitor [1], is going
to continue to use the crippled MS Word layout engine. They adopted this as
the status quo for Outlook 2007 and promptly set rich email with CSS, etc.,
back a number of years, and are showing no great sign of diverging from this
path. However, there is hope! Campaign Monitor have started a website,
http://fixoutlook.org/ , in conjunction with their "Email Standards Project"
[2] -- essentially a standards advocacy website. They need your support now
more than ever.

FixOutlook.org aims to collate the community's discontent with this decision
using Twitter to change Microsoft's policy decision on this one before it's
too late and we're stuck with yet another five-ten years of inferior email
authoring!

If you're a Twitter user, it'll take two seconds to retweet and show your
support.

Thanks!

Josh

[1]
http://www.campaignmonitor.com/blog/post/2799/microsoft-to-ignore-web-standards-in-outlook-2010/

[2] http://www.email-standards.org/

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Re: [WSG] FINAL VERSION OF MY SITE

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Paul Novitski  wrote:
> A few quick notes:
>
> 1) Phone number formats vary from place to place, but in North America at
> least the convention is to insert spacing or punctuation between the first
> '1' and the area code. I would change "1800-Joe-Fruit" to "1-800-Joe-Fruit"
> unless the Australian convention differs.

FWIW, the convention does vary and Marvin is correct in Australian usage. :)

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Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Thierry Koblentz
 wrote:
> -moz is a vendor prefix (not CSS3)

Actually, vendor prefixes are a part of both CSS 2.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords as well as the
CSS3 working draft... they're for proprietary extensions, of course,
but it's always seemed odd to me that the validator doesn't recognise
a vendor-prefix as per spec (irrespective of the specific vendor
extension) and ignore it accordingly.

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Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Thierry Koblentz
 wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Thierry Koblentz
>>  wrote:
>> > -moz is a vendor prefix (not CSS3)
>>
>> Actually, vendor prefixes are a part of both CSS 2.1
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords as well as the
>> CSS3 working draft... they're for proprietary extensions, of course,
>> but it's always seemed odd to me that the validator doesn't recognise
>> a vendor-prefix as per spec (irrespective of the specific vendor
>> extension) and ignore it accordingly.
>
> The prefix may be "part of it" to address parsing issues, but - afaik - that
> does not make these extensions CSS properties.

Indeed - yet therein lies the frustration at the validator failing to
correctly parse as per spec.

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Re: [WSG] CSS Validation Error

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 6:16 PM, David Dorward  wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2010, at 03:29, Joshua Street wrote:
>>> The prefix may be "part of it" to address parsing issues, but - afaik - that
>>> does not make these extensions CSS properties.
>>
>> Indeed - yet therein lies the frustration at the validator failing to
>> correctly parse as per spec.
>
> The validator does correctly parse as per the spec. The spec defines a way 
> for vendor prefixes to exist without conflicting with anything in CSS, no 
> more. This makes them part of the grammar, not the vocabulary, and the 
> validator checks both. The CSS 2.1 specification says "Authors should avoid 
> vendor-specific extensions".

I agree vendor-specific extensions do not constitute acceptable
vocabulary, but as the specification allows a grammatical means for
their inclusion it seems counter-productive to flag them as errors.

The specification assures authors and vendors that "An initial dash or
underscore is guaranteed never to be used in a property or keyword by
any current or future level of CSS" - and, accordingly, they are (and
will remain) grammatically permissible / safe for use. The imperative
to avoid these extensions lacks explanation and, while this list is
(by virtue of our name!) perhaps not the place for such views, seems
to stem from the desire to preserve the appearance of standardisation
rather than maximising the utility and flexibility of the standard in
question.

As a counterpoint to this, of course, using standards-compliant
techniques to achieve an outcome will more successfully preserve
interoperability into the future. However, I would assert the advice
to "avoid vendor-specific extensions" should be constrained by this,
rather than suggesting that a guaranteed future-compatible (albeit
potentially no longer functional, contingent on ongoing vendor
support) identifier should be avoided unswervingly.

So I guess my problem is with the language of the specification as
much as with the validator - but I feel there is probably enough
ambiguity in the specification around this (i.e. why introduce a
feature only to advise authors to avoid implementations applying this
feature?!) that the validator should, on the basis of grammar, accept
flexible vocabulary following this dash (-) or underscore (_) prefix.

There are good, pragmatic reasons for both approaches - but erring on
the side of flexibility here does nothing to damage the abilities of
compliant user-agents, or the fabric of the standards-based web.
Particularly in seasons where we wait for finalisation of good and
important features into usable, non-draft-form standards, the
validator's interpretation remains unhelpful.

-- 
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[WSG] PHP GET session ID's prevent validation?

[Joshua Street]

Hi all,

I've come across something of a problem on a website which uses Sessions (and PHP).  The server it is hosted on is setup to allow session ID's to be sent as GET variables (i.e. part of the URL string), if the user *apparently* doesn't have cookies enabled.

Now, for whatever reason, the server is deciding that MANY users don't have cookies enabled, even when they do, and is therefore pushing them to the GET method, as opposed to setting a cookie and leaving it alone!  This isn't a problem relevant to this list (I have other concerns, regarding security, etc. but that is best discussed elsewhere), however it does do some bad things to links on the page!

The website is http://www.platform7.info/, and it (before moving servers) validated without any problems.  What's happening is that PHP is appending "&platform7=SESSION ID GOES HERE" to all links on the webpage, when in GET session (e.g. not cookies) mode.  You'll note that & should be & in order to validate...

Has anyone else had this happen to them before?  Any suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,




Joshua Street








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p.s. This is primarily an interim fix, as in a few months I shall be disabling (at code level) support for GET sessions, mandating the use of cookies.


<>

Re: [WSG] Conflict with javascript dropdown menus and CSS

[Joshua Street]

No problems here, Mozilla 1.6/Linux i686.

What browsers have you seen the problems occur in?

Joshua Street

base10solutions

Website:
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On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 16:19, Murphey, Kay wrote:
> I have recently designed a new site using tableless layout. 
> All is good, except on the few pages where there is a table to
> hold tabular data.
> 
> The dropdown menu won't come down over the table, but rather
> goes up over the header - especially on lower resolutions or
> when the window is not fully maximised.  
> 
> The tables are contained within a floated div tag - if I
> remove the div, the javascripts work fine, however the table
> then drops down the page in an unacceptable way.
> 
> The code for the table div is:
> 
> 
> 
> #table { float: left; margin-top: 1px; margin-bottom: 1px;
> margin-right: 10px; padding: 5px; }
> 
> One of the problem pages can be viewed at
> http://www.community.nsw.gov.au/html/parenting/caring_babies.htm
> 
> Any ideas for convincing the javascript to drop down over the
> floated table div? 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Kay Murphey
> Web Team
> Dept of Community Services
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **
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RE: [WSG] Image size--where should it be?

[Joshua Street]

Well, the W3C validation page recommends using either!

Demonstrating valid CSS:


 http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/";>
  http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/images/vcss"; 
   alt="Valid CSS!" />
 


Demonstrating valid XHTML:


 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=referer";>http://www.w3.org/Icons/valid-xhtml10";
alt="Valid XHTML 1.0!" height="31" width="88" />


Personally, I'd go the CSS, but it doesn't really matter... (I don't think)

Joshua Street
base10solutions

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-Original Message-
From:   Edd Hale [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Fri 13-Aug-04 9:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 
Subject:[WSG] Image size--where should it be?

I am new to CSS and I am not sure if the image size (width and height)
should appear in the HTML or be handled by CSS. Thank you.
Edd



<>

Re: [WSG] Restricted HTML Editor?

[Joshua Street]

 then destroy any copy of this
> message.  Except where otherwise specifically stated, views expressed in
> this e-mail are those of the individual sender. The New South Wales
> Parliament does not guarantee that this communication is free of errors,
> virus, interception or interference.
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[WSG] GeoURL/Seach engine localisation

[Joshua Street]

This is something which has been bugging me for a few days, so I'm
asking here... it's not standards as such, but it is accessibility
related to a vague extent ;)

GeoURL is still not functioning (http://geourl.org), but the meta tags
which are used to specify location are as follows:




I was wondering if search engines (Google, I'm looking at you) can/do
make use of this "ICBM" data for localisation?  I know that it works on
IP blocks, and possibly other data, but why not this as well?  Or do
search engines use this information already?

And if so, why aren't more people using it to get targeted traffic?

This is primarily a 'bloging thing, of course, but I see no reason why
it shouldn't be more widely applied.

Just curious... I'm hoping this isn't too far off topic.

Joshua Street

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RE: [WSG] GeoURL/Seach engine localisation

[Joshua Street]

Yep, that's what it stands for... more of a programmers joke than
anything else, methinks.  It is a standard "of sorts" for detailing
lat/long, specifically for locating blog-sites whose authors are
geographically nearby.

I'm sure it could be used for postage rates and other things, as you
say, but people don't seem to be aware of it or bothering to use it. 
It's an interesting idea, even if existing technologies don't take
advantage of it.

And, of course, as an added bonus, it has a fun acronym ;)

Joshua Street

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On Fri, 2004-08-27 at 14:04, Barry Beattie wrote:
> 
> 
> this is going to sound even more OT but ...
> ICBM: Inter-contental Balistic Missile, yes? 
> 
> or is it a standard of sorts for detailing lat/long? (I'm thinking of
> uses for postage rates, distances, etc ...)
> 
> just a thought...
> cheers
> barry.b
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Joshua Street
> Sent: Friday, 27 August 2004 1:38 PM
> To: Web Standards Group mailing list
> Subject: [WSG] GeoURL/Seach engine localisation
> 
> This is something which has been bugging me for a few days, so I'm
> asking here... it's not standards as such, but it is accessibility
> related to a vague extent ;)
> 
> GeoURL is still not functioning (http://geourl.org), but the meta tags
> which are used to specify location are as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering if search engines (Google, I'm looking at you) can/do
> make use of this "ICBM" data for localisation?  I know that it works on
> IP blocks, and possibly other data, but why not this as well?  Or do
> search engines use this information already?
> 
> And if so, why aren't more people using it to get targeted traffic?
> 
> This is primarily a 'bloging thing, of course, but I see no reason why
> it shouldn't be more widely applied.
> 
> Just curious... I'm hoping this isn't too far off topic.
> 
> Joshua Street
> 
> base10solutions
> 
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Re: [WSG] Standards-based PHP tutorials for beginners...

[Joshua Street]

Couldn't agree more.  One other suggestion, though, is to extend that
separation a little further by generating XML with PHP, and then parsing
that XML into whatever templating engine you end up using.  This just
provides another degree of separation, and reduces the temptation to
hard-code ANY HTML into your back-end... something which I wish I'd been
aware of 6 months ago!

Having your content available in XML will also simplify the presentation
of content in other formats in the future, if you choose to do so --
thinking of syndication (RSS) amongst other things.

>From a standards perspective, this separation just reduces the chance of
making some early mistakes which will take ages to correct six months
down the track.

Joshua Street

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On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 09:55, Nick Lo wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> One thing I'd suggest if you're learning PHP is to from the very start  
> try as much as possible to avoid having PHP generate your HTML (as in  
> your example).
> 
> I started coding PHP over 4 years ago using an e-commerce system that  
> generated large amounts of the HTML and I still now have to  
> occasionally work on it. I can tell you that debugging HTML is a scary  
> task when it is being generated all over the place. It's a frequent  
> complaint that database-driven/content-managed/whatever sites produce  
> horrible HTML because of their "engines".
> 
> This is not really the right list for too much discussion on PHP itself  
> but I'd suggest you separate out your HTML into "templates" which can  
> be done using template engines as tricky (and some say overkill) as  
> Smarty or as simple as using  in your HTML. The  
> important thing being to only allow php code in your HTML that is  
> responsible for actually generating the HTML. e.g. not database  
> queries. In fact I was recently doing a quick update on the above  
> system and realised the one improvement I'd do first would be to  
> separate out the HTML as much as possible. A great place to get some  
> idea of the approaches is sitepoint.com PHP forums; search for "php  
> template" or similar.
> 
> I'll not go too far into the nitty-gritties as it could drift  
> off-topic. I do however think that the way a lot of systems are built  
> does make building valid standards compliant sites very difficult if  
> not done carefully.
> 
> Nick
> 
> > ... a bit much to ask?
> >
> > Just wondering if anyone knew of any such tutorials. Those on php.net
> > seem as if they were written by C programmers wanting to learn php. Yet
> > those on webmonkey are so old that they still use things like:
> >
> > echo "Hi there";
> >
> > Makes it very hard to help HTML newbies (who've learned standards-based
> > html from the start) learn PHP!
> >
> > The best I could find was:
> > http://www.free2code.net/tutorials/programming/php/4/
> > Introduction_to_PHP.php
> >
> > Any suggestions welcome!
> > -Michael
> 
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Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content

[Joshua Street]

On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 15:59, Lachlan Hardy wrote:
> Apparently every version of Windows Media Player from WMP7 will play 
> .mov files [1], except that they is not associated with the player by 
> default. 

According to
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q316992#30 ,
"Only QuickTime files version 2.0 or earlier can be played in Windows
Media Player. Later versions of QuickTime require the proprietary Apple
QuickTime Player."  QuickTime is now up to what, 5?  6?  There must be
at least some benefits of these newer file formats that would be lost if
the older format was used...

If you want *run-on-everything-out-of-the-box* compatibility, avoid
QuickTime... go with some generic MPEG or AVI standard.

Joshua Street

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Re: [WSG] accessible audio-visual content

[Joshua Street]

GPL isn't the only definition of an "open standard", but I'd agree --
QuickTime specs for the latest codecs aren't made freely available by
Apple!  Projects like MPlayer and Xine (at least, I think they've
developed their own, and haven't used prior work...) have reverse
engineered implementations of the codec, but I very much doubt Apple are
handing them the format on a platter and saying "Here you go, compete."

Not that Apple are competing at all on a GNU/Linux platform... but
that's a COMPLETELY irrelevant rant.

On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 20:46, Dejan Kozina wrote:
> At 23.16 12/09/04 -0700, Rick wrote:
> >Why are some folks so biased against Quicktime when it's the best?! And it's
> >an open standard! What more do you want! A free streaming QT server? It's
> >available!
> >
> >Rick
> 
> What do you mean with 'open standard'? I've never heard of this and Apple's
> website doesn't say anything like this. The only GPL thing found by Google
> is OpenQuickTime.org, which is a library for .mov file handling, but this
> doesn't make QuickTime open at all. If you want to go the open road better
> embed a MPEG in Flash, at least the specs have been published (and the
> installed base is somewhat wider). You'll have smaller files, too.
> By the way, QuickTime can be a real nuisance on Windows: every time the
> player launches it will try to write itself to the registry to be launched
> at startup time. Bugger.
> Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio
> Dolina 346 - 34018 TS - Italy
> tel./fax: +39 040228436
> cell.: +39 3487355225
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.kozina.com
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[WSG] Longdesc?

[Joshua Street]

I noticed this attribute as part of an img element in Mark Stanton's
presentation at the Sydney meeting last Thursday... he didn't make
reference to it, though, and I've been struggling to see the application
of it ever since.

Does "longdesc" really have to comprise a link to an external page, or
can it simply be an extended version of the "alt" attribute?

Regardless, what are the practical applications of this, anyway?  Can
any user agents read it?  Do screen readers use it?  Does ANYTHING use
it?  Right clicking on an image which uses longdesc, then clicking
"Properties" in Firefox reveals the URI which longdesc points to... and
the benefits of this make sense, but still... inline "display" through
fetching the longdesc URI if the image is not available would seem to
make more sense, at least to me.

It's not an urgent matter for resolution, at least, not for me, but I've
been musing over it ever since...

Joshua Street

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Re: [WSG] Longdesc?

[Joshua Street]

Ahh, I didn't even think about the possibility of using anchors!  Thanks
for the informative response. :)

Josh

On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 21:29, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> Joshua Street wrote:
> > Does "longdesc" really have to comprise a link to an external page, or
> > can it simply be an extended version of the "alt" attribute?
> 
> as per http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#h-13.2 it *has to 
> be* a URI
> 
> by the way: it doesn't need to be a link to an external page...you can 
> also have longdesc pointing at an anchor or fragment identifier on the 
> same page (e.g. longdesc="#imagedescription") or you can have one single 
> external page for all descriptions, and then link to the specific one 
> for the particular image, again with anchor or fragment identifier (e.g. 
> longdesc="alldescriptions.html#bookcover1")
> 
> 
> > Regardless, what are the practical applications of this, anyway?  Can
> > any user agents read it?  Do screen readers use it?  Does ANYTHING use
> > it?
> 
> if by "use it" you mean "expose it to the user" then in most cases the 
> answer seems to be no. can't vouch for it, as i haven't got any 
> installed here at home, but i do seem to recall that some screenreaders 
> to present the option to jump to the longdesc when they encounter it.
> 
> incidentally, i've just written an extension for firefox to offer a 
> "View Image Longdesc: ..." in the image context menu, whenever an image 
> actually has a longdesc attribute set. 
> http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/55/
> i'm hoping that this sort of thing will make it into the browser(s) as 
> standard.
> 
>  > inline "display" through
> > fetching the longdesc URI if the image is not available would seem to
> > make more sense, at least to me.
> 
> no, that's what ALT is for. imagine if the image is a book cover. the 
> ALT would say "book cover: title of book" and the document referenced by 
> the londesc would go into the details of what the cover looks like, e.g. 
> "a man and a woman, kissing in front of a nuclear explosion while debris 
> flies all around the scene" or something. now imagine your screenreader 
> is reading out the page...having the longdesc plonked right there in the 
> middle of the original document would be very disruptive to the flow of 
> the document, and in most cases unnecessary and distracting if the ALT 
> already adequately conveys what the image is for.
> 
> Patrick
> _
> reÂdux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] Testing render speed

[Joshua Street]

Logically, yes, but you'd need to be hosting on loopback, otherwise the
timestamps would most probably be out of sync (not a problem for most). 
The initial question specified "from initial request through to
completion", which means that we've got to take into account transport
time, for the leaner nature of CSS-based markup to become apparent. 
Obviously, network conditions from loopback aren't an accurate
representation of the wider Internet...

How well synchronised can computers get with time servers?  I've never
really thought about it too hard... but in this case, the margin for
error would be in milliseconds, so it matters.

On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:14, Andrew Krespanis wrote:
> ** EDIT from above: It would seem that as of August 11th they have
> altered it to include images from CSS... This is one of those times
> I'm really glad I'm wrong :o
> 
> As for home testing... Could you include some form of timestamp using
> php and then a javascvript onload function to work out the time
> difference? That's a wild guess, but it might just work.
> 
> 
> Andrew.
> 
> http://leftjustified.net/
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Re: [WSG] Footer stuff

[Joshua Street]

If you were going to use the second example, I'd recommend using
border:whatever; instead of pipe characters...

My $AU0.03

On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 11:22, Amit Karmakar wrote:
> Apologies if this has been discussed before.
> 
> What is better in terms of semantics and accessibility?
> 
> 
> stuff | more stuff
> stuff too | more stuff again
> 
> 
> or
> 
> 
> stuff | more stuff
> stuff too | more stuff again
> 
> 
> Obviously the first one uses a  to differentiate 2 lines, which
> I am sure can be done many other ways too.
> 
> The second method in my opinion has more control over the information
> as it uses s instead of , would it be right to say s need be
> used more in the content area instead of footers.
> 
> Would appreciate your feedback on this.
>  
> Regards,
> Amit Karmakar
> http://karmakars.com
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Re: [WSG] Online HTML text editor

[Joshua Street]

It's nice, and valid, but in this case "valid" doesn't mean clean.

This is what I just came up with when playing with it:
---
This is some sample text. You are using http://www.fckeditor.net/";>FCKeditor.It's a pity about the span tags being used
as liberally as font tags used to be.  It might be valid, but that
doesn't make it nice...
-
That used to be:
--
This is some sample text. You are using FCKeditor.
It's a pity about the span tags being used as liberally as font tags
used to be. It might be valid, but that doesn't make it nice...
-

and then I started clicking formatting buttons.

Yeah, it's about the user, but that doesn't make it any better... I know
that if some clients were given that much choice, they'd exercise it. 
Valid?  Yes.  Good?  Hmm...

Does anyone know how easy it is to lock FCKeditor (heh, always seems
like typing an expletive, hey?) down so going crazy with colours or
fonts isn't an option?  It's probably really simple, but I haven't
tried... thought I'd ask here to see if anyone else had experience,
before I go wasting time...

Joshua Street

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On Mon, 2004-10-11 at 20:17, Jacobus van Niekerk wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Just though I should share this nice open source HTML text editor that
> produces valid XHTML.
> 
> http://www.fckeditor.net/
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> Kind Regards
> Jacobus van Niekerk
> 
> Creative Consultant
> 
> 
> web: http://www.catics.com/  |  http://www.freelancecontractors.com
> tel: + 27 21 982 7805
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] my site works on Mac, not PC :: suggestions???

[Joshua Street]

Be nice to PC's.  I've got a PC, and all that looks fine to me.

Mind you, I'm running Linux... ;)

(Firefox 0.10.1, SuSE 9.1)

Josh

p.s. I do get a JavaScript error, though.

Error: window.attachEvent is not a function
Source File: http://sonze.com/lange/includes/scripts.js
Line: 73

On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 15:13, Shane Helm wrote:
> I was having a great week in my Mac world of coding my newest client's 
> website in CSS & XHTML.  All was well in my happy little MacLife.  The 
> site was working just fine in Mac Safari, Firefox, Netscape, & IE 
> 5.2.3.  Then I got curious as to what was going on in the PC world.  So 
> I went to a friend's PC (using IE) and what to my wondering eyes did 
> appear - the site was pretty jumbled and didn't adhere (to my plans).  
> Surprised?  No.  Upset?  Of course.  So I believe we need to forget 
> making petitions to have Microsoft update IE, how about a petition to 
> ban Microsoft from ever creating software again!  Okay I'm ranting and 
> raving.  Sorry.
> 
> If some of you have a moment, can you verify that my floats are jumbled 
> or something is awry.  I believe I've cleared my floats correctly.  I'm 
> not sure where I've gone wrong, but I must get a PC to check from now 
> on.  Must go shopping.  Oh no, will I actually own a PC.  Dreadful...  
> Just teasing you PC folks.  :)
> 
> A couple of my html pages:
> http://sonze.com/lange/index.html
> http://sonze.com/lange/bios.html
> 
> Now the CSS:
> http://sonze.com/lange/css/master.css
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Thank you,
> Shane Helm
> 
> **
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> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] Yahoo CSS'ing

[Joshua Street]

Are you behind a caching proxy or something at work?


-Original Message-
From:   Patrick Lauke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Thu 30-Sep-04 6:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 
Subject:RE: [WSG] Yahoo CSS'ing

Weird indeed. From home, I see the new table-less design. From work here, it's still 
the old one...

Patrick

> -Original Message-
> From: Tony Crockford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 30 September 2004 09:15
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Yahoo CSS'ing
> 
> 
> I'm a bit confused, if I go to http://www.yahoo.com/ I'm 
> still seeing the  
> tabled version.
> 
> have they got some clever locale sniffing going on or what?
> 
> (I'm in the UK)
> 
> -- 
> listening to: background noise
> 
> http://wiki.workalone.co.uk
> http://www.xebit.net
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<>

[WSG] Left and right: inline content...

[Joshua Street]

Hi all.  I'm trying to do something which I know is easy with tables, but of course, 
that's not my first preference.  Basically, it's a footer line with an ABN number (for 
non-Australians, a business registration number) on the left, and an unordered list on 
the right with validation links, an accessibility policy link, etc.

I want it to look like this:

 _
|ABN 72797798055  |XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
|_|

Markup currently goes:

ABN 72797798055
 
   http://validator.w3c.org/check/referer";>XHTML
   http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";>CSS
   Accessibility
   Top
 


And the CSS:

#footer {clear:both;text-align:left;}

#standardsline {float:right;display:inline;}
#standardsline li {display:inline;list-style-type:none;}

I've stripped irrelevant (presentation aside from layout) CSS from that, and the 
display:inline in #standards line is probably unnecessary -- That's just me trying to 
get it to work.

Currently, it's displaying like this:

 _
|ABN 72797798055  |
|_|XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|

which sucks.  Well, not completely, but it's not how I want it to look.

Any suggestions?

Joshua Street
base10solutions
<>

Re: [WSG] Left and right: inline content...

[Joshua Street]

Thanks Hugh, Joseph.

I'd tried wrapping the ABN in a , but that wasn't working too well
-- putting it in a paragraph worked miracles, though.  I managed to get
away without assigning widths to either the  or the  elements, so
that was good.  Yet to throw it at Internet Explorer, but we'll see...

Joshua Street

base10solutions

Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com/
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Fax: (02) 8572-6021
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On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 12:27, Joseph Lindsay wrote:
> Hi Joshua,
> 
> try wrapping the abn in .
> 
> #footer {clear: both;}
> #footer p {float:left;}
> #footer ul {float: right;}
> #footer li {display:inline;}
> 
> Joe
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:49:01 +1000, Joshua Street
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all.  I'm trying to do something which I know is easy with tables, but of 
> > course, that's not my first preference.  Basically, it's a footer line with an ABN 
> > number (for non-Australians, a business registration number) on the left, and an 
> > unordered list on the right with validation links, an accessibility policy link, 
> > etc.
> > 
> > I want it to look like this:
> > 
> >  _
> > |ABN 72797798055  |XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
> > |_|
> > 
> > Markup currently goes:
> > 
> > ABN 72797798055
> >  
> >http://validator.w3c.org/check/referer";>XHTML
> >http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/check/referer";>CSS
> >Accessibility
> >Top
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > And the CSS:
> > 
> > #footer {clear:both;text-align:left;}
> > 
> > #standardsline {float:right;display:inline;}
> > #standardsline li {display:inline;list-style-type:none;}
> > 
> > I've stripped irrelevant (presentation aside from layout) CSS from that, and the 
> > display:inline in #standards line is probably unnecessary -- That's just me trying 
> > to get it to work.
> > 
> > Currently, it's displaying like this:
> > 
> >  _____
> > |ABN 72797798055  |
> > |_|XHTML|CSS|Accessibility|Top|
> > 
> > which sucks.  Well, not completely, but it's not how I want it to look.
> > 
> > Any suggestions?
> > 
> > Joshua Street
> > base10solutions
> > 
> > 
> > 
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[WSG] Semantic indentation

[Joshua Street]

What's the recommended practice with indentation?

You can use CSS to indent text with padding and whatever else, but
that's a pain if you have a sitewide CSS file, and the text to be
indented doesn't sit in any defining container

---
Example 1:

âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

may be marked up as a single paragraph (as it corresponds to a single
stanza of a poem -- in this case, the first stanza of Louis Carroll's
"The Hunting of the Snark", just for a random example.) as follows:

âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
---

As line break tags "" are self-closing elements, I don't *think*
it is possible to style with them (e.g. to indent the relevant lines) --
and, even if it were, it would be an ugly solution (assuming I'm even
thinking along the right lines, and that it would work at all):

---
Example 2:

âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.
---

Assuming the style would apply to the following, and not preceding,
line.  This example is untested, and would most likely not work at all. 
I'm just thinking out loud.

One potential solution (albeit a hideous and bloated one) is simply to
use repeated non-breaking space characters:

---
Example 3:

âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
   As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
   By a finger entwined in his hair.
---

but that, of course, probably isn't the most desirable solution.

In terms of light markup (but of dubious semantic appropriateness), I've
seen definition lists employed to this end quite effectively:

---
Example 4:


âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,

As he landed his crew with care;


Supporting each man on the top of the tide

By a finger entwined in his hair.




This renders without any problems in visual user agents without styling
required, and is apparently valid XHTML -- but it seems dubious to me. 
It appears structurally better, at least to me (my eyes follow the
markup flow more easily than the other examples above), but that doesn't
deal with the issue of semantics.

Is it okay to have untitled definitions?  Is it okay to use definition
lists like this at all?  Or, better still, does someone have another
solution which I've missed completely?

Thanks in advance,

Joshua Street

base10solutions

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Re: [WSG] Semantic indentation

[Joshua Street]

I had thought about that one, but dismissed it for a few reasons
(primarily my own fault, although W3C guidelines play a part in this
decision).  In the HTML4 recommendation (
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 ), the semantic
meaning of blockquote and q is defined as being for quotations.  That's
okay -- for the purpose of the example I used, at least.  If I were to
reproduce the whole 8 fits of the poem, then it ceases to be a
quotation, and begins to be a work in its own right.

I'll cite my personal website as an example of styling, here:
http://www.joahua.com/blog/2004/10/23/clemenceau-amuses-me

That page demonstrates the use of a blockquote element, with styling
appropriate to the purpose (or at least, my understanding of the purpose
of the element at the time I developed the CSS file).  Imagine if I were
to attempt to apply that to the example below: I'd have a mess (some
would argue I've sacrificed legibility a little even with normal
quotations, but I maintain it looks pretty and I'm not changing it!).

Of course, that's my responsibility as developer to deal with.  It'd be
possible to place the stanza (or whole poem) in a paragraph with class
attributes (or a div with class attributes), and style things
differently.  Having said that, I'm still not entirely comfortable with
using blockquote (or even q) like that, given the content.

âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

would be marked up with every second line as a quotation, and
odd-numbered lines as part of the body of the document.  Semantically,
that makes nearly as much sense as the definition lists, so far as I can
see.

I don't want to launch into a discussion about preferred methods, if
both are plainly wrong, and whatever is chosen matters little in the
end.  That said, please say something if I'm blatantly wrong about how
these things should/shouldn't be used...

Josh

On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 10:54, Neerav wrote:
> If its a quote like your example, use 
> 
> Neerav Bhatt
> http://www.bhatt.id.au
> Web Development & IT consultancy
> 
> http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
> http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
> 
> Joshua Street wrote:
> > What's the recommended practice with indentation?
> > 
> > You can use CSS to indent text with padding and whatever else, but
> > that's a pain if you have a sitewide CSS file, and the text to be
> > indented doesn't sit in any defining container
> > 
> > ---
> > Example 1:
> > 
> > âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
> > As he landed his crew with care;
> > Supporting each man on the top of the tide
> > By a finger entwined in his hair.
> > 
> > may be marked up as a single paragraph (as it corresponds to a single
> > stanza of a poem -- in this case, the first stanza of Louis Carroll's
> > "The Hunting of the Snark", just for a random example.) as follows:
> > 
> > âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
> > As he landed his crew with care;
> > Supporting each man on the top of the tide
> > By a finger entwined in his hair.
> > ---
> > 
> > As line break tags "" are self-closing elements, I don't *think*
> > it is possible to style with them (e.g. to indent the relevant lines) --
> > and, even if it were, it would be an ugly solution (assuming I'm even
> > thinking along the right lines, and that it would work at all):
> > 
> > ---
> > Example 2:
> > 
> > âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
> > As he landed his crew with care;
> > Supporting each man on the top of the tide
> > By a finger entwined in his hair.
> > ---
> > 
> > Assuming the style would apply to the following, and not preceding,
> > line.  This example is untested, and would most likely not work at all. 
> > I'm just thinking out loud.
> > 
> > One potential solution (albeit a hideous and bloated one) is simply to
> > use repeated non-breaking space characters:
> > 
> > ---
> > Example 3:
> > 
> > âJust the place for a Snark!â the Bellman cried,
> >    As he landed his crew with care;
> > Supporting each man on the top of the tide
> >    By a finger entwined in his hair.
> > ---
> > 
> > but that, of course, probably isn't the most desirable solution.
> > 
> > In terms of light markup (but of dubious semantic appropriateness), I've
> > seen definition lists employed to this end quite effectively:
>

Re: [WSG] Semantic indentation

[Joshua Street]

Others have outlined the reasons not to use  tags, so I won't go on
about that too much, but to say that it's inappropriate to reformat
"preformatted" text IMHO.  That's just opinion, though.

There are arguments both ways with regard to the use of whitespace as a
part of "content" as opposed to as a purely presentational aspect, such
that the meaning of the poem may be influenced by the use of spacing
(there are reasons poets format things in the first place, and as web
developers there is a responsibility to preserve as much as possible of
the source medium in transition).  Whilst it's difficult to make this
accessible to non-sighted users, that doesn't mean we stop trying for
"accessibility" altogether.

The problem with the example below is that it will NOT display well in
any browser which doesn't adequately support stylesheets (or rather,
support stylesheets at all).   is an inline element, by default,
and if we change its behaviour using CSS, the poem is liable to render
as follows:

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,As he landed his crew
with care;Supporting each man on the top of the tideBy a finger entwined
in his hair.

My mail client has wrapped that -- it'd obviously extend further.

Mordechai Peller's last solution in his first email, however, would
enable the display of unstyled content to be quite acceptable in user
agents:

> 
> "Just the...
> As he...
> Supporting...
> By a
> 

I think that's the most workable solution proposed yet...

Josh

On Mon, 2004-10-25 at 08:17, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> Joshua Street wrote:
>  >
>  >> What's the recommended practice with indentation?
>  > Uh - is there any reason not to use ?
> 
> Charles Eaton wrote:
> > I'll second that with the css code of "white-space" 
> 
> Well, I wouldn't say the spaces are part of the content, but rather 
> they're a part of the presentation, based on the traditional way of 
> presenting poems of this nature on paper...so they'd belong purely in 
> the CSS and not in the markup (even if it's only a few space characters).
> 
> In the absence of a "line" element in xhtml (like the one proposed for 
> xhtml 2.0 <http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-text.html#sec_9.7.>), 
> something like this would probably be an acceptable solution
> 
> 
> 
> Just the place for a Snark!Ã the Bellman cried,
> As he landed his crew with care;
> Supporting each man on the top of the tide
> By a finger entwined in his hair.
> 
> 
> 
> ... second stanza ...
> 
> 
> 
> ... third stanza ...
> 
> 
> etc
> 
> 
> 
> with a css of
> 
> blockquote.poem span { display: block; }
> blockquote.poem span:first-child + span, blockquote.poem 
> span:first-child + span + span + span { text-indent: 2em; }
> 
> Of, if we wanted to go for CSS 3 (if it were supported anywhere), that 
> last line could be boiled down to
> 
> blockquote.poem span:nth-child(2n+2) { text-indext: 2em; }
> 
> or shorthanded to
> 
> blockquote.poem span:nth-child(even) { text-indext: 2em; }
> 
> Of course, neither the CSS 2 nor the CSS 3 method work in IE...so 
> classes on the spans  it is, I think.
> 
> Patrick H. Lauke
> _
> reÂdux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> 
> **
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> 
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> **
Joshua Street

base10solutions

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RE: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME

[Joshua Street]

You can use PHP to output header information, and also to do content 
negotiation. I don't know code for it off the top of my head, but Google 
probably would turn up something.

Regards,
Joshua Street
base10solutions

-Original Message-
From:   Richard Czeiger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Thu 11-Nov-04 11:34 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 
Subject:Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME

Aha! NOW i get it!
Thanks Patrick. I guess with people telling you to put inline scripts as
"text/JavaScript" and CSS as "text/css" I just assumed that the meta would
take care of it

No one said anything previously about the server bit...
That's clarified it for me.

BUT...

If, like most of my customers, theire sharing a server at some hosting
company, then it's unlikely that the host would do this to their servers...

Hmmm

Richard   :o

- Original Message -
From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] discussion at juicy studio: It's all in the MIME


Richard Czeiger wrote:
> According to W3C, 'application/xhtml+xml' is the MIME type to use.
> I've put it pages and seen it not only validate, but also display
correctly
> in IE5.0 and IE6.

If IE displayed the page, rather than prompt you to download/save the
file, then you're *not* really sending it as application/xhtml+xml.

Taking a stab in the dark, I'd guess that all you did was change the
"content type" meta to it. Well...that's not the way to do it. Your
*server* needs to be configured to send out proper
application/xhtml+xml, or - if you're using something like PHP
server-side - you need to send the appropriate headers. If all you did
was indeed just change the meta, your server is happily still sending
out your page as text/html, and that's why IE is displaying it.

If you have Firefox, simply go to the page in question and do "Tools >
Page Info". On the resulting window, look for "Type". You're more likely
seeing "text/html" there, indicating that it's not "application/xhtml+xml"

Oldie but goldie on the subject:
http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/03/19/dive-into-xml.html

Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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<>

Re: [WSG] Re: It's all in the MIME

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 20:28, Alan Milnes wrote:
> So does anyone have a link to an article which can tell me how to
> properly serve up application/xhtml+xml using PHP?

Jeroen Visser shared
http://www.workingwith.me.uk/articles/scripting/mimetypes/ as a link
before... that tells you how. The datestamp on the message was Thu, 11
Nov 2004 01:48:36 +0100 if you want to read the original.

Joshua Street

base10solutions

Website:
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Re: [WSG] Validators - might be helpful.

[Joshua Street]

Hang on...

That's pretty cool, but is there some way to make it spider your site
_externally_ for validity, instead?  Thinking of those of us using
database'd CMSs and the like -- clearly, spidering a directory locally
isn't going to show anything useful!  I'm completely inept when it comes
to anything Perl (remarkably tempting as the urges to learn may have
been), otherwise I'd try and help!

Just out of curiosity, how is this sending you a report? I'm fairly
inept at CODING Perl, but I think I understand most of that script... I
don't get where the output is going, though, aside from to whatever the
screen output is.  It certainly doesn't look as though it is emailing it
(is there a mail() function in Perl, as with PHP?), although who
knows... maybe it's outputting to the local user's mail box?

I know the programming aspect of this is moderately off-topic, so please
don't reply re: that on-list, but if there's a quick and easy way to
make this spider by HTTP instead, and/or send the report in an email
(assuming it's not already doing so, by some huge thing I've completely
missed!) - possibly using Cron, or whatever, I'd be really interested to
find out!

Joshua Street

base10solutions

Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060
Fax: (02) 8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

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from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to
undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as
base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by
the contents of this e-mail.

On Thu, 2004-11-18 at 14:24, Jonathan T. Sage wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> for quite a while, I have been playing with the idea of an automated
> validator on my largest web site.  Due to it's nature, it is updated
> often, and usually not by myself.  So, using a bit of perl, and
> HTML::Tidy, I came up with the following.  It assumes the web sites
> lives in /usr/local/www/data, and that you are serving everything via
> php. (I store all my content in a custom xml file, php does the
> markup).  It seems to work great, and now every morning I get into the
> office with a report of what was messed up the day before, or, often,
> nothing :)
> 
> hope maybe somebody else can get some use out of this idea as well
> 
> ~j
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> 
> use HTML::Tidy;
> 
> my $tidy = new HTML::Tidy;
> 
> $files[0] = `/usr/bin/find /usr/local/www/data/ -name "*.php"`;
> 
> foreach my $ittr_list ( @files ) {
>   foreach my $ittr_idvl ( split(/\n/, $ittr_list) ) {
>my $ittr_command = "php " . $ittr_idvl . " 2> /dev/null";
>my $ittr_output = `$ittr_command`;
> 
>$tidy->parse( $ittr_idvl, $ittr_output );
> 
>for my $message ( $tidy->messages ) {
>  print "   " . $message->as_string . "\n";
>}
>$tidy->clear_messages();
>   }
> }
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

[Joshua Street]

A few suggestions, in order of markup.

1) The JS menus are okay, if everything listed in them is accessible
some other way.

2) Your non-JavaScript link list (topnavbar) should be a list. And the
bullet images would be better as background images or
list-style-image's.

3) Instead of having an image for your header, consider having a H1 that
says "WebNet Design Studios: A Progressive Web Design and Development
Group" and use an image-replacement technique. As the page title, this
should carry greater semantic weight than it does at present, which is
why I'd lean towards a H1 rather than a semantically neutral  with
an  inside.

4) If you change that to be a H1, then (this one is open to conjecture)
I think all the other H1s on your page should become H2, etc.

5) Currently, your H1s have images inside them. Setting padding-left and
a background-image would be a better alternative here. Use id or class
to differentiate the images between headers, if this is what you need
(at the minute, it looks like that's what your design aims for).

6) You have a table that's semantically inappropriate under the Consumer
Shop heading (summary="Consumer Shop" id="table") -- these links should,
again, be an unordered list. To make them use the space more
effectively, you can float them to make their appearance emulate a
table. With fluid layouts, this has the added benefit of making
"columns" appear to appear and disappear as the layout scales -- though
this isn't a concern here. You can also set a background image for list
items instead of including the  tag at the start of each.

7) Finally, your footer should also be a list. I would use an image
replacement technique here again, possibly putting your copyright
statement in a separate list to enable correct positioning (if you need
to... it's possible not to, but might be easier that way).



AND -- this one is important -- text resizing (up) breaks immediately
because you've set the heights of #integration, #consumer, #special,
#starter, #site and #quote in pixels. Unsetting all of these doesn't
particularly break anything, though when resizing the length of the
columns relative to one another does fluctuate somewhat (I'm only
testing in Firefox, here). You can fix this by putting your #clear div
INSIDE the #wrapper div, so that #wrapper extends as far as it has to,
continuing the white background all the way down (I think... I've never
been completely on top of that whole clearing thing, so I'm not 100%
sure that'll work... the theory runs something like that, though. Play
around.)


HTH,

Josh

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

[Joshua Street]

Okay, most of the points I made still apply. 1) is out, because you've
ditched the JS menu. 2, 3, 4, 5 (less now) and 7 still apply. You've got
images where you could be using background images in a H4 for the
special offers section, and I'd lean towards doing part of your
testimonial bit differently. Perhaps:

Joe Coyle, President and add
the rule
.testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}
to your CSS, instead of
Joe Coyle, President

...because the name isn't really emphasised (which is what the strong
tag means), only styled differently, and the image has no semantic
weight (you've already said "Client testimonial" in the H2 immediately
above).

Text resizing isn't so bad, if you're prepared to accept your nav bar
breaking so quickly (it only scales one step up in Firefox here).

Only other suggestion I've got is to perhaps stick the "Plans starting
at $24.95/month" server graphic as part of a link background, instead of
just as an image... and, if you _do_ want to retain the image, change
the alt text to something more meaningful than "web servers" -- "Plans
starting at $24.95/month" would do nicely.

Regards,

Josh

On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 00:21 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Josh,
> 
> My sincere apologies!!
> 
> I failed to provide the URL to the development environment for the redesign:
> 
> http://www.webnetdesignstudios.com/index1.htm
> 
> This is my current site, and one of the reasons I've decided to implement a 
> re-design.
> 
> Sorry for the miscommunication.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Mario
> 
> 
> 
> > A few suggestions, in order of markup.
> >
> > 1) The JS menus are okay, if everything listed in them is accessible some 
> > other way.
> >
> > 2) Your non-JavaScript link list (topnavbar) should be a list. And the 
> > bullet images would be
> > better as background images or
> > list-style-image's.
> >
> > 3) Instead of having an image for your header, consider having a H1 that 
> > says "WebNet Design
> > Studios: A Progressive Web Design and Development Group" and use an 
> > image-replacement technique.
> > As the page title, this should carry greater semantic weight than it does 
> > at present, which is
> > why I'd lean towards a H1 rather than a semantically neutral  with an 
> >  inside.
> >
> > 4) If you change that to be a H1, then (this one is open to conjecture) I 
> > think all the other
> > H1s on your page should become H2, etc.
> >
> > 5) Currently, your H1s have images inside them. Setting padding-left and a 
> > background-image
> > would be a better alternative here. Use id or class to differentiate the 
> > images between headers,
> > if this is what you need (at the minute, it looks like that's what your 
> > design aims for).
> >
> > 6) You have a table that's semantically inappropriate under the Consumer 
> > Shop heading
> > (summary="Consumer Shop" id="table") -- these links should, again, be an 
> > unordered list. To make
> > them use the space more
> > effectively, you can float them to make their appearance emulate a table. 
> > With fluid layouts,
> > this has the added benefit of making
> > "columns" appear to appear and disappear as the layout scales -- though 
> > this isn't a concern
> > here. You can also set a background image for list items instead of 
> > including the  tag at
> > the start of each.
> >
> > 7) Finally, your footer should also be a list. I would use an image 
> > replacement technique here
> > again, possibly putting your copyright
> > statement in a separate list to enable correct positioning (if you need 
> > to... it's possible not
> > to, but might be easier that way).
> >
> >
> >
> > AND -- this one is important -- text resizing (up) breaks immediately 
> > because you've set the
> > heights of #integration, #consumer, #special, #starter, #site and #quote in 
> > pixels. Unsetting
> > all of these doesn't particularly break anything, though when resizing the 
> > length of the columns
> > relative to one another does fluctuate somewhat (I'm only
> > testing in Firefox, here). You can fix this by putting your #clear div 
> > INSIDE the #wrapper div,
> > so that #wrapper extends as far as it has to, continuing the white 
> > background all the way down
> > (I think... I've never been completely on top of that whole clearing thing, 
> > so I'm not 100% sure
> > that'll work... the theory runs something li

Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

[Joshua Street]

On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 12:22 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> I appreciate your input, and I concur with some of your points, and will 
> apply the changes
> accordingly. However, I think using  to emphasize the author of the 
> testimonial is
> perfectly acceptable. To create a rule and use  tag is overkill. 
> Additionally, the image is
> to provide a soft visual touch, I realize the importance of clean, 
> well-written code and content,
> but the Internet is also a visual medium.

The Internet _is_ a visual medium, but, certainly in this instance, the
visual element isn't content. (Cases where visual-only elements would be
are photo galleries and sparkline graphics, et al.) This is a field in
which absolutes are hard to find, but I personally think in this case
your visual elements don't contribute to the _content_ of your site, but
rather the presentation. This applies to both that server graphic and to
the  thing (though the latter is more debatable).

If you want to _emphasise_ the author, then  is correct. To me,
that doesn't look as though it's something you would stress if you spoke
it, so I'd use a child selector and span tag as per my suggestion. It
seems to me to be a design decision, rather than a semantic one. But
maybe not.

> I don't agree that every horizontal navbar should be in a list especially 
> since display:inline 
> isn't supported in IE5, but that's a personal preference.

I wasn't aware this was an issue:
http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/ie5b.html#display would suggest that
it's not.
http://wellstyled.com/singlelang.php?lang=en&page=css-inline-blocks.html
has some more that looks related... it looks achievable, but I haven't
got IE5 here to test.

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

[Joshua Street]

On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 12:00 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Since the testimonial is basically a quote, why not use the  element? 
> Then use the presidents name within the  element. This way it is 
> semantic, and you still get to style the presidents name any way that you 
> feel fit!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Nathan

The example everyone is getting excited about isn't actually the right
site... the first email Mario sent had an incorrect URL.

The amended version (see subject: "[WSG] HomePage Review: Corrected
URL") lists 
http://www.webnetdesignstudios.com/index1.htm as the correct address.

A quick recap of (this aspect of) the thread follows.

This page displays the testimonial in the form:

Joe Coyle, President

With the testimonial itself in the proceeding paragraph.

I suggested that use of  was inappropriate, as you don't really
emphasis the name, it's purely for the visual differentiation of the
name and title (so I understand it, anyway).

Joe Coyle, President and add
the rule
.testimonialname span {font-weight:bold}

Would be, in my thinking, a more semantic alternative (that is, a
semantically neutral alternative with no presentational markup).

Argument about overkill and pedanticism followed. ;-)

Josh Street
base10solutions
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Use of cite WAS: Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

[Joshua Street]

On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 12:39 +1000, Lea de Groot wrote:
> I would give strong consideration to:
> Joe Coyle, President 
>  .testimonialname cite {font-weight:bold}
> 
> and think about working a q element into the actual quote-paragraph.

This immediately seems to make sense, but I'm left wondering one thing.

With forms, we are encouraged to make use of the for attribute on label
elements, in order to make the relationship between elements clear. Can
a similar practise apply to cite and q? With blockquote elements we have
the cite attribute, but that is different again and can only be used for
href data.

So... is there any way to define this relationship? Or is it just
order-of-content and hoping it makes sense? What if you were to put the
cite after the quote for whatever reason (style guide convention, etc)?

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents
of this e-mail without the sender’s consent. If you have received this
e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and
then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way.

Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent
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Re: [WSG] Homepage Review: webnetdesignstudios.com

[Joshua Street]

On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 22:58 -0400, Christian Montoya wrote:
> Isn't < b > still valid? If you want to have a weightless way of
> bolding the text, but don't want to mess with a span, use < b > . 

Yes. It's in the presentation module for XHTML 1.1
( 
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_presentationmodule
 ).

> -- 
> - C Montoya
> rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
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RE: [WSG] avoid Verdana -> I cant get the whole point.

[Joshua Street]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Buddy Quaid
Sent: Tue 4/10/2005 13:32
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana -> I cant get the whole point.
 
> I think there's something fundamentally wrong when a discussion about what 
> font you should and shouldn't use is brought up in the context of web 
> standards.

Why? Discussion of that allows us to make informed design/typography decisions 
that would otherwise result in a less-than-optimal user experience for 
"minority" user groups. Actually... I agree, web standards is wrong. Best 
practices and accessibility/usability, however, fit this discussion (IMHO) 
quite nicely.

"Web standards" (as this whole quagmire is unfortunately known) aren't really 
about standards at all. Shock, horror. Go stick that in a validator. We 
occasionally lose sight of the reasons for pursuing these "standards" 
(technically "recommendations", sometimes not even that) -- namely, catering 
for a wider audience irrespective of browsing technology (IE, Lynx, PDAs, 
Google); future-proofing information through semantic markup; and (this is true 
in a professional context, at least) improving ROI for businesses websites.

If the second reason there was our only cause, you're right, discussion about 
design and typography would be irrelevant. But the first and third reasons mean 
it's something we should worry about: firstly because we want to deliver the 
best possible experience (I know this sounds like marketing crap, sorry!) for 
all platforms -- and this means using the best fonts wherever possible (or 
relevant -- it's not for Google or JAWS, etc.) --, and secondly because 
(subject to the same condition of relevance) image _does_ matter for a number 
of websites out there... and CSS("standards")-based design can help achieve 
this, because you've got more than one shot at specifying fonts to target 
different platforms... amongst other things, like handheld stylesheets, etc.



Josh

--
Joshua Street
base10solutions

http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
<>

Re: [WSG] Dublin Core metadata

[Joshua Street]

Not strictly DC, but along a similar vein... don't suppose anyone knows
if any/many search engines take ICBM meta data or geo.position meta data
into account when determining local content?

I ask because, whilst Google is generally pretty good with localised
versions (my personal site[1] is a .com but it shows up in Australian
content listings because it's hosted on a computer here), it'd be nice
not to have to host in Australia or have a .something.au address to show
up in Australian listings (yeah, I know, abuse of domain name system...
someone shoot me.)

More on topic, is this meta data actually valuable? I've got it on my
blog, just for kicks and because it's useful for GeoURL[2] if nothing
else. If this meta data is more broadly utilised then perhaps it's worth
considering using on more sites.

Any ideas?

Josh

1. http://www.joahua.com/blog/
2. http://geourl.org/near/?p=http://www.joahua.com/blog/

On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 09:15 +0100, Paul Collins wrote:
> I have recently been reading about Dublin Core meta data. I would like
> to know what the main advantages are of using it and how widely it is
> interpreted by search engines. I am having a hard time finding out the
> right information, could anyone point me in the correct direction or
> maybe give some knowledge?
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Re: [WSG] Browser Stats

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 02:58 -0400, Christian Montoya wrote:
> I think of it more as, on Mac there is a decent browser (safari). So
> there isn't much need for FF there. Whereas PC users really need FF. 

It's also worth remembering Opera have recently released their browser
for free (as in beer), so that's now a viable alternative to suggest for
places where there aren't many alternatives (i.e. Windows -- err... i.e.
as in "id est/that is", not... oh, forget it!).

Josh Street

> -- 
> - C Montoya
> rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
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Cross platform weirdness in FF WAS Re: [WSG] Chinese food and web standards

[Joshua Street]

On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 03:16 -0400, James Bennett wrote:
> Since Gecko-based browsers render (nearly) identically on all
> platforms, there's no need to worry on that count



I thought I'd take this opportunity to hijack a thread and ask about a
weird problem I've been having with Firefox on Windows vs. Firefox on
Linux. Both running 1.0.7, both with Chris Pederick's Web Dev toolbar
installed.

I haven't got access to a Mac with Firefox, but it's possible that'd
render in a similarly incongruous fashion. The site in question is at
http://www.joahua.com/rawideasmakeover/ - not mine, I redid it to
prove a point re: web standards to someone - and the rendering
inconsistency is in the height of the "Hosting services" div:


// hosting services

Competitive hosting for your site with multiple redundancies, regular
back ups and problem resolution to keep your business online.
// more


being the source. (Yeah, markup isn't pristine, but I was in a hurry.)

That div _should_ extend far enough down to make its right border
appear to be shared between the two "cells"... which it does in
Firefox/Lin without any dramas. Scale text up and down, it copes fine,
no breakages.

Back over to Windows, however, and the event services "cell" appears
to move upwards, and the right border doesn't extend far enough down
anymore.

I suspect this has something to do with fonts...
font: 1em/1.1em Arial, Verdana, sans-serif;
is what's in use.

I just discovered I can break the layout in a similar fashion by
forcing Verdana (btw, the font family I'm using is just based on the
existing site: to those who care about nice typography, it's not my
fault!)... but why would Win/Firefox use Verdana over Arial (both are
installed)?

For the record, IE/Win renders "correctly" (in the desired fashion,
that is), as does Opera/Lin and Konqueror/Lin.

Is this a bug? Any ideas?

Slightly perlexed,
Josh
--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469

Re: [WSG] faux columns for fixed AND percentage width

[Joshua Street]

On 10/13/05, Titanilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The border you see next to the left navbar is a background image. What I
> need is the same looking border between the other two columns, set at a
> percentage width to 'shrink' with the page if necessary.
> But when I try to place a background image in the content div, it simply
> won't repeat on the y axis.
>
> What  am I doing wrong?

Change your background GIF to a 2px by 7px graphic, instead of 210px
wide as at present. Then, use background-position to put it in place.
You can specify that as an em value to make it work well with fluid
layouts.

HTH,
Josh

--
Joshua Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

[WSG] Counters support?

[Joshua Street]

I discovered a page today that's all about counters and printing
things here: 
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/CSS:Getting_Started:Media#Action:_Printing_a_document

I didn't think Firefox supported counters, though... I'd read that
Opera did (but later checked that and apparently it's
partial/incorrectly implemented - see
http://nanobox.chipx86.com/browser_support_css.php#support-css2propsbasic-content
). Does anyone know if Firefox does/doesn't support this, and, if it
doesn't yet, is it on the list for Deer Park?

Not so much for production sites, but I've built pages just to
generate content before that was "printed" to PS then to PDF... and
this would be really useful for me there (e.g. for generating
numbered, printed content in a run-once context).

Regards,
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469

Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5

[Joshua Street]

Yeah, the main risk is in the OS/Browser integration thing. And, since
those versions are standalone, they're "safer" than IE6... plus your
usage patterns for it will be different.On 10/14/05, Peter Ottery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Just for my own peace of mind tho - they're only a security issue whenyou have launched the program right? so if i'm launching them (old
standalone IE5 & 5.5) once a month to *only* test pages that I'vecreated - I'm not leaving my system open to some rogue securitybreaching  action right?-- Joshua Street
http://www.joahua.com/+61 (0) 425 808 469

Re: [WSG] Styling legends and fieldsets

[Joshua Street]

On 10/19/05, Mike Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This really is a rhetorical question born of frustration...
> It would certainly help in producing accessible forms if we didn't have
> to say, "we can use legend and be properly accessible, or we can use
> heading and be able to place it where we want, but we can't use legend
> and place/style how we want. Choose one".

Yes.

--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i��n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��

Re: [WSG] specifying width of

[Joshua Street]

content

Gives you an alternate parent element which you can then set to scroll
or whatever, preventing the content from spilling out across your
layout generally. I think.

On 10/24/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Is there any way to specify a max width for content of  tags? Currently
> the content of my  tags does not automatically wrap when the parent div
> is at an end - it just keeps on running until it finds the end of the line.
> I know the idea of the  tag is to display the content as it is, but of
> course I want it to remain in the boundaries of my parent element.
>
> Any ideas?


--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469

Re: [WSG] specifying width of

[Joshua Street]

(Yep. Or, if it's code -- I only really ever use  for that -- as
per my example previously, with the same styles.)

On 10/25/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The easiest way to define this is to create a division whose overflow 
> attribute is set to auto. example:
>
> 
>   
>  whatever code you want
>   
> 
>
>
> Hope it helps.
>
>
> Pat Boens
> http://www.fastwrite.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> Is there any way to specify a max width for content of  tags? Currently
> the content of my  tags does not automatically wrap when the parent div
> is at an end - it just keeps on running until it finds the end of the line.
> I know the idea of the  tag is to display the content as it is, but of
> course I want it to remain in the boundaries of my parent element.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> **
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] specifying width of

[Joshua Street]

http://www.joahua.com/random/pretest.html

Play around with the web developer's toolbar in Firefox... I can't
figure out a way to make it work as you want it to (though it's
possible to style it so it doesn't look like preformatted text,
demonstrated in the link). If it's coming from a database, isn't it
trivial to use a regexp to replace \n with ? (Or, doing things
properly, wrapping paragraphs in paragraph tags?)

It's also possible you could use Javascript to do that kind of stuff,
but I'm afraid I'm of no help there.

Josh

On 10/25/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Other than a scroll bar (overflow) there is no solution?
>
> The reason I need to use  is that the content comes from a database that 
> doesn't use HTML 's, but normal linebreaks. So to format the text 
> correctly I need to put it in  tags, but of course I want it to still 
> fit into the rest of the content.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Street
> Sent: Monday, 24 October 2005 6:32 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] specifying width of 
>
> content
>
> Gives you an alternate parent element which you can then set to scroll or 
> whatever, preventing the content from spilling out across your layout 
> generally. I think.
>
> On 10/24/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Is there any way to specify a max width for content of  tags?
> > Currently the content of my  tags does not automatically wrap
> > when the parent div is at an end - it just keeps on running until it finds 
> > the end of the line.
> > I know the idea of the  tag is to display the content as it is,
> > but of course I want it to remain in the boundaries of my parent element.
> >
> > Any ideas?
>
>
> --
> Joshua Street
>
> http://www.joahua.com/
> +61 (0) 425 808 469
> Nnvy jq♞z
>
>
>
> **
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>


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+61 (0) 425 808 469

Re: [WSG] specifying width of

[Joshua Street]

On 10/25/05, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Normally I would do that, but in this particular case I was hoping not to
> use server-side formatting of the content. But it seems I will have to
> revert to that.
>
> I have never had any use for the  tag. Now I thought I finally had my
> chance and it turns out to be a really useless tag. DAMN! :)
>

It's not _completely_ useless. Just mostly.

Re: [WSG] specifying width of

[Joshua Street]

Yeah. I think it's kind of Gmail's fault. You'll note the mailing list signature isn't showing up on my messages, either. I'm sending this message in HTML format in the hope it stays more intact than plain text

when the WSG list processes it... there's something seriously wrong
with Gmail vs. WSG list, and I haven't had any problems sending to
other non-WSG addresses, so... shrug. I emailed list admins last week
about it but haven't heard anything.

For the record, I can read my own messages fine in Ximian Evolution,
but there's a string of funny characters at the end of the post as you
said. Paul's blank reply thing seems... very odd. I haven't seen that
at all. Anyway, if this message doesn't get through I'll stop using
Gmail for WSG and start using local postfix to reply. If it does, and
someone wants to help figure it out, please email me off list. I've got a bunch of Gmail invites here, so you can play with it first hand if you haven't already got an account.


Regards,
JoshOn 10/25/05, Rick Faaberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> On 10/24/05 10:31 PM "Paul Noone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> sent this out:> > > Am I the only one getting blank replies from Joshua?> > I think there're a bunch of funny characters in his posts as I recently> posted.> > Possibly some unicode thing-a-maroo?
> > I can't read his messages.> > **> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help> **
> >

Re: [WSG] extra eyes on an input:focus ?

[Joshua Street]

http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/11997

IE doesn't like the :focus pseudo selector.

HTH,
Josh

On 10/28/05, csslist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> anyone see why this wont work in ie? works elsewhere but not on ie
>
> input:focus,textarea:focus {
> background: #ff;
> color: #27455f;
> border: 1px solid #ff;
> }

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Re: [WSG] extra eyes on an input:focus ?

[Joshua Street]

On 10/28/05, csslist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i put the ie7 hack in and it works fine now.
>
> gotta love ie

How big is that thing? Can you split it up so you can just use the
bits you need (i.e. :pseudo-selector), or do you need to use the full
thing? I'd heard it's largish (but haven't ever used it/had to use
it).

Josh
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Re: [WSG] extra eyes on an input:focus ?

[Joshua Street]

On 10/28/05, Focas, Grant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The ie7 hack being what?
>
> grant

http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ I presume...
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Re: [WSG] extra eyes on an input:focus ?

[Joshua Street]

Heh, actually, "ie7" with "I'm feeling lucky" is enough.

On 10/28/05, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The ie7 hack being what?
>
> Good grief, come on people! Let your fingers do the walking before asking 
> questions one google search could answer you
> http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ie7+hack
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Re: [WSG] Weird displacement

[Joshua Street]

What browser? Looks normal in Firefox 1.0.7/Linux.

Side note: Why the image map for your Home/Basket/Email nav? Looks to
me as though a styled list would work well there...

On 10/28/05, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Is anybody able to shed some light on why on
> http://www.startregistration.com/domain/register/ the first
> fieldset is touching the left border of the form, but each subsequent
> fieldset is like indented and not touching the border?
>
> Then there is also the problem of the "Contact Information" fieldset having
> a margin under each row, but all the other fields sets do not. The CSS is
> the same for all forms.
>
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> PS. The page does not validate, but the issues it shows I am sure do
> attribute to the problems, i.e. ALT tags missing etc.
>
>
> Taco Fleur - CEO
> Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au
> an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …
>
> ** Web Design and Development
>
> ** SMS Solutions, including developer API
>
> ** Domain Registration, .COM for as low as AUSD$15 a year, .COM.AU for
> AUSD$50 two years!
>
> ** Seamless Merchant integration
>
> ** We endorse PayPal, accept payments online now!
>


--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
N�ŠÇ.²È¨žX¬µú+†ÛiÿünËZ�Ö«vÈ+¢êh®Òyèm¶ŸÿÁæ쵩Ýj·l‚º.¦Šàþf¢—ø.‰×¥Šw¬qùŸ¢»(™èbžÛ(žš,¶)උazX¬¶­¶)à…éi

Re: [WSG] Weird displacement

[Joshua Street]

This article is kind of outdated, but it's currently the "Editor's
Choice" piece on A List Apart (issue 206)

http://alistapart.com/articles/imagemap

That example is more complex than what yours would need, though. If
you combine your primary and secondary banner divs into one, you can
use one background image instead of two, and stick two lists inside it
(The top right links, and the bottom left links in two different
lists).

This also means if you wanted rollovers it's relatively painless to do
(using :hover pseudo selectors and "sprite" backgrounds). You'd need
to make the list items line up, yes, but you could use the same image
as for the main background and just use background-position to get it
right (so you don't have to create another five images manually).

Hope that made some kind of sense...

Josh

On 10/28/05, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Browser is Internet Exploder.
>
> Image map is because I don't really like fooling around matching the gifs 
> with the background. Plus I send an email to this list a while back asking 
> whether it was bad to have an image map, I believe the answer was no ;-)
> By all means convince me not to use it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Taco Fleur - CEO
> Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au
> an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …
>
> ** Web Design and Development
>
> ** SMS Solutions, including developer API
>
> ** Domain Registration, .COM for as low as AUSD$15 a year, .COM.AU for 
> AUSD$50 two years!
>
> ** Seamless Merchant integration
>
> ** We endorse PayPal, accept payments online now!
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Street
> > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2005 4:53 PM
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] Weird displacement
> >
> >
> > What browser? Looks normal in Firefox 1.0.7/Linux.
> >
> > Side note: Why the image map for your Home/Basket/Email nav?
> > Looks to me as though a styled list would work well there...
> >
> > On 10/28/05, Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is anybody able to shed some light on why on
> > > http://www.startregistration.com/domain/register/ the first
> > fieldset
> > > is touching the left border of the form, but each
> > subsequent fieldset
> > > is like indented and not touching the border?
> > >
> > > Then there is also the problem of the "Contact Information"
> > fieldset
> > > having a margin under each row, but all the other fields
> > sets do not.
> > > The CSS is the same for all forms.
> > >
> > > Any help is appreciated.
> > >
> > > PS. The page does not validate, but the issues it shows I
> > am sure do
> > > attribute to the problems, i.e. ALT tags missing etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > Taco Fleur - CEO
> > > Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au
> > > an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 …
> > >
> > > ** Web Design and Development
> > >
> > > ** SMS Solutions, including developer API
> > >
> > > ** Domain Registration, .COM for as low as AUSD$15 a year,
> > .COM.AU for
> > > AUSD$50 two years!
> > >
> > > ** Seamless Merchant integration
> > >
> > > ** We endorse PayPal, accept payments online now!
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Joshua Street
> >
> http://www.joahua.com/
> +61 (0) 425 808 469
> NŠÇ.²È¨žX¬µú+†ÛiÿünËZÖ«vÈ+¢êh(r)Òyèm¶ŸÿÁæìµ(c)Ýj·l‚º.¦Šàþf¢—ø.‰×¥Šw¬qùŸ¢»(™èbžÛ(žš,¶)උazX¬¶
>  ­¶)à…éi
>
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **

Re: [WSG] Adding a header to a tbody

[Joshua Street]

Is there any rule against having  more than one  in a table? 
Could you do:






etc...

Just guessing, mightn't be permissible (given you can make the 
repeat with print stylesheets, I'd guess it's highly unlikely to be
allowed...)

Josh

On 10/29/05, Ted Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All
>
>
>
> I've got a new question.
>
> I'm building a large table and would like to add some tbody elements within
> a cell that discusses product features.
>
> I thought it would be nice to break it down between accessories, batteries,
> weight, good karma, etc.
>
> It would be even better if I could add a header to these elements. However,
> I can't think of a way this morning to add a header to a tbody. I'm using a
> th on the first cell of each row and there is no need for thead in these
> subtable elements.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion?
>
> Does this make sense?
>
>
>
> Ted
>
>
>


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Re: [WSG] form hidden field ?

[Joshua Street]

Example link?

On 10/29/05, csslist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a hidden field in a css styled form and when you view the page it's
> shown as a line in firefox, any ideas?
> tia
>
> dave
>
>


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Re: [WSG] form hidden field ?

[Joshua Street]

Ahh, beautiful. This site serves a dual purpose!

To Joe Taylor's earlier remark that "I would be concerned about a bug
only showing up in Firefox, I believe that hiding something from
Firefox is not the way to go, but rather, make it right in Firefox and
then worry about the others." -- observe this site. Clearly, Firefox
is not infallible -- or, in the case that its rendering here falls
within recommendations, it is at very least illogical and
counter-intuitive. I note that Opera and Konqueror (Safari-ish) render
this page quite sensibly, properly hiding the element. Of course, we
don't need to revert to hacks to resolve this, but your (seemingly)
blind faith in Firefox's correctness is discomforting.

Dave, Firefox is rendering the border you've defined on the input
selector. Use inline CSS of border:0; or give it a class/ID (as you
have the other form elements) and add a rule to your stylesheet to
stop this from appearing.

HTH,
Josh

On 10/29/05, csslist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://65.36.226.10/contact/contact.cfm
>
> ________
> From: Joshua Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 2:11 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] form hidden field ?
>
> Example link?
>
>
> On 10/29/05, csslist wrote:
> > I have a hidden field in a css styled form and when you view the page it's
> > shown as a line in firefox, any ideas?
> > tia
> >
> > dave
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Joshua Street
>
> http://www.joahua.com/
> +61 (0) 425 808 469
> **
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>
>


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Re: [WSG] form hidden field ?

[Joshua Street]

On 10/29/05, Bert Doorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd say this is why you see the line - your hidden input will be
> given display:block, with that border.
>
> Removing display:block should fix it.

Ah, that makes more sense than mine :P Guess I was in too much of a
hurry to make a point!

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Re: [WSG] Noob question... CSS padding on tables

[Joshua Street]

Using conditional comments for IE, set

table td {
padding:0;
}

Assuming that's what you want? Or was it the other way around?

On 10/29/05, Mark B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Bit of a noob question. Working on a site using tables/html 4 (technical
> restraints). I'm finding that when I apply CSS padding to a table, in
> firefox, the padding is only applied to the table, whereas in IE, the
> padding is applied to all the cells in the table, which for a table with
> more than 1 cell gives a noteably different result.
>
> I'm sure there's an easy workaround for this, but I don't know what it is.
> Anyone care to provide some pointers?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>


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Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?

[Joshua Street]

On 10/30/05, Kenny Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So back to the original question, is there any way to serve a rule
> only to firefox (or only to non-firefox) without invalidating the css?

Heh, server-side browser sniffing? ;-)



Josh
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Re: [WSG] Firefox filter?

[Joshua Street]

On 10/30/05, Mark Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seriously, why is this flamebait. I suggested this in another thread a
> couple of days ago. Is there a problem I'm not aware of with server-side
> sniffing?

Mm, well... it's not really a problem if it's properly maintained.
But, seeing as many small sites won't be (especially with the
proliferation of CMS tools of late) maintained by a web developer with
knowledge of that sort of stuff, it presents future difficulties.
Especially in this case, where targetting "Firefox" might be adequate
for the next few months, but what if 1.5 fixes broken behaviour?

You're then serving "acceptably degraded" content to Firefox when you
don't have to. This is not, as Gunlaug said, "likely to work reliably
for very long when we're dealing with Opera, Gecko, Safari and other
good browsers" (because they are constantly being updated). He was
talking about client-side filtering, but the same principle applies:
you can't foresee what versions of x browser will have the feature
introduced in, and hence you risk

a) excluding it when support for x feature DOES become adequate, or
b) committing yourself to ongoing maintenence (possibly unpaid)

So, in summary, it's not a problem if you know what versions of a
browser you are targetting, or you're prepared to make changes in the
future.

Josh
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Re: [WSG] Which browser is most stanard compliant?

[Joshua Street]

Speaking pragmatically, does it matter? I think Firefox is pretty
good, and I personally use it (with web developer extension) to build
stylesheets (I find it really helpful to watch the elements fall into
place as I adjust styles in realtime).

That is, for me, the fastest way to get a style that adheres to
recommendations and performs okay in Opera, Safari, etc. -- and from
there it's on to IE.

Whether Firefox is "most accurate" according to recommendations, I
don't know. If anyone's got a comparison chart of certain browsers
according to spec, that'd be interesting reading, but it doesn't
ultimately change that much. When I raised an eyebrow at your "Firefox
first, others later" thing, it wasn't so much at that as at the
"Firefox is always right" attitude: we mustn't assume that. It's a
very solid browser, and it evolves quickly thanks to active
community-driven development, but if you look at Bugzilla it's most
definitely not flawless.

In terms of the "best" browser for W3C recommendation support? Leaning
towards saying Opera, just because it does some cool CSS3 stuff others
don't... but that's hardly a substantiated opinion.

Josh

On 10/30/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In response to some of the opinions generated by my "Firefox first,
> others later" way of testing my pages, it brings up the question of
> which browser is closest to rendering my code the way it SHOULD look?  I
> was under the impression that Firefox was as accurate as available today.
>
> If gecko is out of date, which is best?
>
> Joe Taylor
> http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites

[Joshua Street]

On 10/31/05, Zulema <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> also, to the list moms, should there be a link directly to the unsubscribe 
> section in the WSG email footer? it would probably need a log in form b/f 
> giving you the unsubscribe button of course.  ;)

Most lists have an [EMAIL PROTECTED] address you
can send a blank message to unsubscribe to. Maybe that would suffice
for the footer, if such a thing is possible with whatever software the
listserv is using?

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Re: [WSG] Unstyling named anchors

[Joshua Street]

On 10/31/05, Paul Noone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have a standard approach to unstyling named anchors I this case
> which will work cross-browser?

How about some Javascript? I don't really know what I'm doing with
that beast, but maybe something like document.getElementsByName("*");
and then do this.style.display="none"; ? I doubt wildcards work as
simply as that, though, if at all...

...or am I missing what you're trying to do here?

(If you're not proficient in Javascript... ignore me, I don't know
what I'm talking about, and it takes hours for me to make any script
do what I need it to do!)

Hope this isn't too far off the mark...

Josh

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[WSG] Opera list positioning oddity

[Joshua Street]

Hi all,

Just done on a site that is near-pixel perfect in (I think) everything
but Opera, which does something weird with the nav (rendering the site
unusable).

I have absolutely no idea why, though. IE was showing some quirky
behaviours but I managed to make Firefox (and Konqueror) display in
the same way by setting the nav ul (#prinav) to position:relative and
then manually working the individual li's back into position.

Opera, after whatever I did (can't remember the specifics of it now),
decided it'd be a great idea to render the nav as far down in the
viewport as possible (I've got a 1280x1024 display here, a colleague
on 1024x768 couldn't see it at all)... and stop the links from being
clickable (whilst the image-replacement was still visible).

http://spl.base10solutions.net/events.html

That's the URL, any ideas?

Thanks :)

A bamboozled Josh

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Re: [WSG] Opera list positioning oddity

[Joshua Street]

Ah, no, nevermind. Managed to solve it just after I sent this :$

http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=96966 pointed me in
the right direction... getting rid of position:fixed on #prinav li
worked (leftover from an earlier iteration).

I don't know if this bug has a name, though... just for future reference...?

Josh

On 11/1/05, Joshua Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Just done on a site that is near-pixel perfect in (I think) everything
> but Opera, which does something weird with the nav (rendering the site
> unusable).
>
> I have absolutely no idea why, though. IE was showing some quirky
> behaviours but I managed to make Firefox (and Konqueror) display in
> the same way by setting the nav ul (#prinav) to position:relative and
> then manually working the individual li's back into position.
>
> Opera, after whatever I did (can't remember the specifics of it now),
> decided it'd be a great idea to render the nav as far down in the
> viewport as possible (I've got a 1280x1024 display here, a colleague
> on 1024x768 couldn't see it at all)... and stop the links from being
> clickable (whilst the image-replacement was still visible).
>
> http://spl.base10solutions.net/events.html
>
> That's the URL, any ideas?
>
> Thanks :)
>
> A bamboozled Josh
>
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>
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Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?

[Joshua Street]

On 11/1/05, kvnmcwebn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hello all,
> Ive started designing sites for this company that specilizes in .net
> databases driven/xml feed type sites. I just give them a graphics file and
> they slice it up.  Anyway they asked me yesterday if i could do this
> particular job with web accessability in mind. But heres the thing-when they
> mark up my designs and ad the vb .net code a typical page will be running
> validation errors in the hundreds. I told them that they need to start with
> web standards and get thier pages to validate before they start on
> accessability.
> Was that sound advice?

I'd say it depends on what they're already doing. The fact they ask
this means they're aware there is an issue, so how ingrained in their
development process is consideration for accessibility? If the
"validation errors in the hundreds" are just unencoded ampersands or
odd tag that doesn't self-close (such as  or , etc.),
then who cares if their stuff validates? (Apologies to anyone offended
by such a laissez faire approach!)

Accessibility and validation are often paired, but that seems to be
more of an incidental thing (because those who care enough to follow
specs are also more likely to take an interest in best practices,
including what we term "accessibility"). Also, if you're in a design
role, was there an element of "can you make your designs USABLE" in
their request? Without falling too much into a discussion of the
division between that and "accessibility", that's a fairly valid
concern for them to voice.

I'd say you're right if their validation errors are non-trivial, but,
as John Allsopp's recent survey [
http://westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/best_practices/ ] of
practices in large Australian sites demonstrated (amongst other
things), otherwise respectable sites can fall down on little things
such as that... and claiming validation is prerequisite to
accessibility CAN (not neccessarily) be potentially unhelpful.

Josh
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Re: [WSG] injecting an extra hook with javascript

[Joshua Street]

On 11/2/05, James Gollan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You mentioned that you wanted to be able to see it when you view the
> source - is that important? Because you wont *see* the span element but
> the browser will. (I imagine you are doing this for an image replacement
> technique in which case not seeing it wouldn't be a big issue). Remember
> you need to call the function, for example
>
> 

Would

window.onload = function(){if(document.getElementById) insertSpan();}

be a better alternative? I don't know much about this but that strikes
me as potentially separating content and behaviour a little bit
more...? (Heh, even if this is to achieve content... but it's a good
thing because it means less redundant code, I guess!)

Also

var util = document.getElementById('utilities');

should be

var util = document.getElementById('utility');

according to Peter's original markup. Just thought I'd point that out.

regards,

Josh

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[WSG] RapidWeaver?

[Joshua Street]

Has anyone used this before:
http://realmacsoftware.com/rapidweaver/index.php

I stumbled across it today (was compulsively checking source of some
site and found a comment that said "produced by RapidWeaver"... and
the markup was relatively clean, so I googled it), seems... not too
bad for a WYSIWYGish app, in terms of code and whatever. Although it
looks like it's just meant to publish stuff, rather than create
styles. Still, in that role it could potentially be useful in lieu of
a standards-compliant web-based WYSIWYG editor for clients.

Obviously the platform (Mac OS X) restricts application somewhat. :-(

I'm interested to hear if anyone's encountered/had any dealings with it, though.

Kind regards,
Joshua Street

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Re: [WSG] css title styles

[Joshua Street]

I honestly don't think this is the best solution for you, especially
if you're doing academic papers. For two reasons:

1) because it's impossible to get titles to "display" in a normal
browser without JavaScript, and;
2) if someone prints out your page they don't get any citations at
all. Well, you CAN make it do that, but that either requires CSS IE
doesn't support, or more JavaScript.

IMO, the best way is to link to the footer and have a link back to an
anchor from the footer, so:

Some text I'm going to footnote1 and then keep writing for a while.

[...]


 Citation goes here. ↑


You could maybe hyperlink the entire citation, but that might cause
problems if your citation is of a website.

The obvious advantage of this is that it prints and requires no Javascript.

hth,
Josh

On 11/5/05, Sarah Peeke (XERT) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dustin
>
> Thanks for your link - impressive titles!
>
> Just wondered, is it possible to have them degrade when javascript is
> disabled, so that at least in IE WIN (for eg) the user sees the normal
> title?
>
> At present, if I disable javascript in FF (mac) I don't get any titles
> at all.
>
> Regards
> Sarah
>
> --
> XERT Communications
> email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> office: +61 2 4782 3104
> mobile: 0438 017 416
>
> <http://www.xert.com.au/>
> web development : digital imaging : dvd production
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Re: [WSG] List Headers?

[Joshua Street]

Or you could nest it, even, if that's valid. Sounds awful complex though...


header
  
   

   
  


Though I remain uncertain as to the semantic value of that, even if it is valid.

Josh

On 11/6/05, Janos Hardi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And what about the definition list? It seems to me that is a plain way
> to do that job m8.
>
> 
> header
> item1
> ...
> 
>
> dl is handy because you can use more "headers" (dt tags) in the same list etc.

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Re: [WSG] position fixed on the thead

[Joshua Street]

Haven't got time to try (last HSC exam tomorrow! woo! -- final school
exams here in NSW Australia), but maybe using the display: property to
ditch normal table-like behaviours for the thead?
http://www.w3schools.com/css/pr_class_display.asp

Then try position:fixed. No idea if this works or not, but it occured
to me that there are different display: types for tables than other
elements.

Josh

On 11/8/05, Ted Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I'm trying something out and wanted to know if anyone had any experience
> with this.  I'd like to keep the thead fixed and let the remainder of the
> rows scroll underneath it.  I will need to come up with a hack for IE6 and
> below, what other browsers do not support fixed?
> I'm also noticing the margins seem off and the page loads with the content
> already underneath the thead. How could I get the page to load with the
> table looking normal and then, voila the head stand still while the rest
> scrolls?
>
> I found a teasingly unformatted xml file from Tantek that states IE5.5:
> THEAD and TFOOT can't be fixed with 'position: fixed' in CSS on the w3.org
> site.
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/impl-pr2/evaluations/eval_mac_ie5.xml
>
>
> I looked at the table gallery and didn't find any examples.
> http://icant.co.uk/csstablegallery/
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Ted Drake
> www.tdrake.net
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

[Joshua Street]

The web is intrinsically anarchous to some extent, occasioned in no
small part by individual publishers not beholden to any particular
standard (or even aware of them) -- Geocities users have no incentive
to make their site accessed by a few friends 'standards compliant' if
that increases the amount of work they have to do (or, more
importantly, the knowledge barrier of entry that inhibits adoption).
No-one is going to legislate against this, much less dedicate
resources to enforcing such legislation. So where is the line drawn?
Are micro businesses with a business card website (i.e. one with no
content bar maybe a logo and a contact phone number) expected to
adhere to "standards" (which are, incidentally, largely not standards
at all)? Would a car raceway website be expected to be accessible by
blind users, who fall outside of their target market? What about music
websites and deaf (to whatever degree) users? Should they be expected
to provide captions for a marginal demographic outside their target?

We can get upset about how they're locking out users with PDAs and
mobile devices and hence potential customers, but that remains a
DECISION made by someone, for whatever reason. Not neccessarily an
informed and intelligent decision, but one nonetheless. Waving the
regulatory flag won't coerce these people into compliance, because
they're unlikely to be aware of what is required. One of the
interesting things about this list is that we all participate
completely contrary to our own commercial interests. Any competitive
advantage building to "web standards" may have once offered an
individual on this list is being progressively diluted!

Which is, of course, a great thing for the web.

The idea of not doing something now because it could be illegal in the
future is an interesting one, to say the least! Opium used to be
prescribed for medicinal purposes. If you happened to know that it was
bad for someone in the 19th Century, your most compelling argument
would [hopefully] not be "hey, that's going to be illegal in a few
decades time, watch out!". I think we're going to see the same thing
with tobacco in the next century. The argument shouldn't be "this
might be illegal in the future, so don't do it now" -- it makes far
more sense to say "hey, this is intrinsically bad for your health now,
and it's probably not a great idea to keep doing it".

"Health" is realised in accessibilty, interoperability, document
integrity in ten, fifteen, twenty years time, and myriad other things.
That strikes me as a far more sensible set of arguments than saying
"it's bad and someone in the distant future MIGHT do something about
it and then you'll regret it."

Josh

On 12/6/05, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
>
> > That's the point.  That's why they want to have someone build a site for
> > them that has a clue about this stuff.  The day WILL come when there is
> > a governing body over the net.  There WAS a day when housing codes DID
> > NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.
>
> Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt that any web standards savvy
> designer/developer may be able to convince clients to hire her by saying
> that in "one day there will be a governing body that will make all
> non-standards compliant sites illegal".
>
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
> [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
> http://redux.deviantart.com
> __
> Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
> http://webstandards.org/
> __
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

[Joshua Street]

Javascript is for behaviour, not content (or structure, really).
Therefore, if you want to dynamically change a year like that, it
SHOULD be enshrined in markup (which means static or server-side
processing).

On 12/7/05, Bob Schwartz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lachlan,
>
> I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time.
>
> By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the
> first place.
>
> (For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the copyright
> notices reflect the current year is a desired thing).
> With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the year
> changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and manualy
> change them.
> This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating structure
> from presentation in the "why CSS is good"  argument.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the :
>
> 
>
> 
>
> var d=new Date();
>
> yr=d.getFullYear();
>
> if (yr!=2003)
>
> document.write("&copy; "+yr);
>
>  Cedar Tree Books
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> (c) 2005 Cedar Tree Books
>
>
>
>
> No script (or entity reference) required.
>


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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Joshua Street]

Single sane reason: Well now, I suppose they're not trying to get
themselves indexed by a search engine, are they? ;-)

josh

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On 12/8/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote:
> > Trolling?
>
> Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me!
> I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate.
> I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could
> all just shake it off - they are no where near validating.
> Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of
> their other products that are an improvement).
> 51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup!
> For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no
> less, and they should pick up their act.
>
> Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere
> near compliant?
>
> Lea
> ~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;)
> --
> Lea de Groot
> Elysian Systems
> Brisbane Australia
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Re: [WSG] Need help with form

[Joshua Street]

For og efternavn*




You're using the name attribute, which isn't valid, and some of your
"for" values have the first letter capitalised, whilst the respective
input name does not. The fact you've omitted an id on some elements
probably doesn't help, either.

Validating the page might go some way to resolving the problems.

Regards,
Josh

On 12/8/05, Kim Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no.
>
> So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages.
> I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms.
> So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia
> happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php
>
> Thanks
> Kim
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Joshua Street]

Just quickly, speaking in Google's favour, I've had to use Gmail in an
emergency via SSH on a text terminal, and it remained eminently
usable. Screenreaders may not fare so well, but for the vast majority
of users, it's key strength is usability and the depth of their
products. It seems they value usability over (universal)
accessibility, which is, for many businesses, quite an acceptable
order of values.

You can either devote resources to ensuring accessibility for those
clients who may or may not be the most profitable, or you can devote
the same resources to improving usability for the widest possible
range of people... which drives the growth of their products in no
small way.

And, despite all its validation misdemeanours, Google's search engine
linearises quite well (if you don't believe me, fire up Links... which
I presume is a decent guide to the way a screen reader would approch
things).

Hah! I just discovered something that puts an interesting spin on my
previous assertion about Google not worrying about showing up in
search engines. Try this search: http://www.google.com/search?q=search

Yes indeed, Google ranks after MSN in its own search engine!

Josh

On 12/8/05, Bert Doorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G'day
>
> > Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me!
> > I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate.
>
> I never looked at it closely, but you're right - it's tagsoup,
> tables for layout and deprecated elements and attributes galore
> (font, center anyone?). No DTD either.
>
> Perhaps, like *many* businesses, they look at it and say "it
> works in all browsers, so what's all the fuss about?"  They don't
> *see* the need...
>
> Perhaps it's also a case of "(some) programmers are not html
> coders".  It seems many people who write server side scripts only
> have a vocabulary of about 10-12 HTML elements (html, title,
> meta, body, table, tr, td, center, font, img and maybe a couple
> more).
>
> Yes, I know there are exceptions...   Just thinking Google may
> fall into this category as it's obviously script driven.
>
> Regards
> --
> Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
> http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
> Fast-loading, user-friendly websites
>
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Joshua Street]

Well, if they don't know about it already, consider Gmail conspiracy
theories disproved ;-)

On 12/9/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 09/12/2005, at 12:20 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
> > But if I were you, I'd get in touch with Google and really lay into
> > them about this :-)
>
> What, when I can whinge on a mailing list?
> No, no - I'm leading open and earnest discussion, honest I am ;)
>
> OK, OK, I'll try to figure out what email address to use later today :)
>
> Lea
> --
> Lea de Groot
> Elysian Systems
> Brisbane Australia
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Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?

[Joshua Street]

Just use ALT text? Isn't that accessible enough? Or am I not
understanding what you're trying to do...

Josh

p.s. Cool flowed-frame text!

On 12/9/05, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One site that I'm currently coding (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest)
> uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages.
>
> One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of each
> page which will go into the template.  I want the links to be randomly
> selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show the relevant
> company logos in an accessible manner.  I also, however, want the user
> to be able to edit an xml file describing the attributes of the various
> sponsors and to add new ones.  Normally I would define the FIR images in
> a linked x.css file but this is not scriptable.  How does the list
> suggest the tags should be styled in this case?
>  * Inline stylesheets?
>  * Linked ".php" with content-type of text/css?
>  * style="" attribute?
>
> Any thoughts??
>
> Thanks
>
> Stephen
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Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?

[Joshua Street]

Well, the markup is a bit lighter, but  doesn't really carry any
semantic baggage, so if you just use appropriate alt text that's a
perfectly acceptable (and probably the simplest, from your
perspective) way to do things, IMHO of course.

On 12/9/05, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thx :)  Semantically, I thought it better to have like:
> http://www.xyzcorp.com"; ... class="sponsor xyzcorp">XYZCorp
> and then stylistically 'overload' this with a nice GIF.  Perhaps not? I
> don't know.
>
>
> Joshua Street wrote:
> > Just use ALT text? Isn't that accessible enough? Or am I not
> > understanding what you're trying to do...
> >
> > Josh
> >
> > p.s. Cool flowed-frame text!
> >
> > On 12/9/05, Stephen Stagg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> One site that I'm currently coding (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest)
> >> uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages.
> >>
> >> One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of each
> >> page which will go into the template.  I want the links to be randomly
> >> selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show the relevant
> >> company logos in an accessible manner.  I also, however, want the user
> >> to be able to edit an xml file describing the attributes of the various
> >> sponsors and to add new ones.  Normally I would define the FIR images in
> >> a linked x.css file but this is not scriptable.  How does the list
> >> suggest the tags should be styled in this case?
> >>  * Inline stylesheets?
> >>  * Linked ".php" with content-type of text/css?
> >>  * style="" attribute?
> >>
> >> Any thoughts??
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Stephen
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Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?

[Joshua Street]

.htaccess maybe?

On 12/9/05, Paul Noone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not so. It depends on Apache and how it's configured.
>
> You can check how PHP is set up by creating a new PHP page and just inlcude
> the following:
>
> 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Stephen Stagg
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:25 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?
>
> In fact, I chickened out and used the IMG tag solution.  however
>
>   My web host uses PHP as a CGI module, I think, therefore, that it only
> handles files with .php extension?
>
> Stephen
>
> Linda Harms wrote:
> > Stephen,
> >
> > Several options actually are available on the PHP side.
> >
> >   -- you CAN script the CSS to select the appropriate background image.
> >   -- multiple css files, use php to call the appropriate one.
> >
> >
> > I have an example available if you're interested.
> >
> > Linda
> > (breaking away from normal lurk mode)
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Stephen Stagg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "WSG" 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:12 PM
> > Subject: [WSG] Dynamic Styles - Inline? What?
> >
> >
> >
> >> One site that I'm currently coding
> >> (http://www.minimology.co.uk/everest)
> >> uses some simple PHP to manage a few dynamic elements on the pages.
> >>
> >> One of these elements (will be | is) 2 Sponsors logos at the top of
> >> each page which will go into the template.  I want the links to be
> >> randomly selected from a list and to use an FIR derivation to show
> >> the relevant company logos in an accessible manner.  I also, however,
> >> want the user to be able to edit an xml file describing the
> >> attributes of the various sponsors and to add new ones.  Normally I
> >> would define the FIR images in a linked x.css file but this is not
> >> scriptable.  How does the list suggest the tags should be styled in this
> case?
> >>  * Inline stylesheets?
> >>  * Linked ".php" with content-type of text/css?
> >>  * style="" attribute?
> >>
> >> Any thoughts??
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Stephen
> >> **
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> >>
> >>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/194 - Release Date:
> >> 12/7/2005
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [WSG] Need help with form

[Joshua Street]

Ah, my bad. I'd seen it misused/causing validation errors in the past,
so assumed that it was just not to be used at all.

Josh

On 12/11/05, Terrence Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 8 Dec 2005, at 8:17 PM, Joshua Street wrote:
> > 
> >
> > You're using the name attribute, which isn't valid
>
> the name attribute *is* valid for form controls, but not other elements
> in XHTML strict.
>
>
> kind regards
> Terrence Wood
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS foul-up in IE. Trying to implement Myers "pure css pop-up" code

[Joshua Street]

Can you possibly ditch the un-semantic pipe separators (|) and just
use border-right:1px solid #000; on the  elements? That would
probably help...

Josh

On 12/12/05, morten fjellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi list.
> I'm trying to implement Eric Myers css code for pop-up text on hover, but
> are having difficulties making it work in IE (I have been successful before
> so I don't get this). On hover all the span tags that contain a seperator in
> the form of | to the right of the link are being moved a few pixels to the
> left. This does not happen in opera or Firefox for PC. In those two browsers
> it all works nicely. Also the hover text that are supposed to appear those
> not. Can someone check out the code and enlighten me?
>
> Page: http://www.madshusskifestival.no/index2.php
> CSS: http://www.madshusskifestival.no/css/skifestival.css
>
> Regards
> Morten Fjellman
>


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Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists (was: CSS foul-up in IE)

[Joshua Street]

We're arguing about the semantics of the word semantics. New record for WSG. ;-)

On 12/12/05, Geoff Pack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Christian Montoya wrote:
> > If you heard what pipe separators sound like in a screen reader, you
> > wouldn't think they were semantic. Just because they have a long
> > history doesn't make them machine-readable.
>
> Well, I have heard what they sound like when Opera reads them out, which is 
> no biggie. And I wasn't implying that semantic = machine-readable.
>
>
> Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
> > Asterisks have a long history of being used to denote required form
> > fields...but that doesn't make them semantic either. Just
> > like the pipe
> > separators, it's a case of a *visual* convention from the
> > print world.
> > They do not have meaning on their own, but their meaning has been
> > inferred. The same inference happens when we used to use  > size="+3"> instead of a proper  or whatever to denote a heading...
>
>
> Well, if it's a convention, then it *has* meaning. The question is then 
> whether the meaning is clear enough, to a wide enough selection of the 
> audience. With HTML, we can also ask if there is a 'correct' way to mark-up 
> the meaning. But incorrect mark-up != un-semantic in the broader sense, only 
> that the semantics of the contents do not match the semantics of the mark-up.
>
> For asterixes, the meaning is the same as a footnote: "see below for 
> clarification". It's a pre-web in-page hyperlink. On a web page you can make 
> the link even more explicit by adding an href to the footer text, but it's 
> not necessary because everyone already *knows* what it means. It is just as 
> semantic as writing 'required' next to a label (Required what?). The meaning 
> is the same.
>
> As for lists, the pipe separated menu list is perfectly clear to most people. 
> What is missing is a clean way to mark it up with HTML. You could use an 
> unordered list, styled inline, but that is overkill in many cases, and not an 
> useable if you want the list to be inline when styles are missing or turned 
> off.
>
> Geoff.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ******
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Justify this

[Joshua Street]

Really? Why not?

I wouldn't have said that of justified text, but maybe my response is
an aesthetic one rather than a conscious approach to readability. Is
it something to do with not being able to find the line you were on at
the end/beginning as easily?

(And if we're going to go down this path, what of non-fixed-width
sites, justified or not?)

Not attacking, just... curious. Because I think justified text LOOKS
nicer (n.b. not neccessarily more readable... just more enjoyable to
read.)

Josh

On 12/15/05, Herrod, Lisa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Justified text really isn't a good idea in terms of usability/readability.
>
> Maybe there was a conscious effort not to support it :)
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Noone
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Sent: 15/12/05 14:49
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Justify this
>
> Hi Lachlan,
>
> Thanks for that but I was actually wanting to center align justified
> text
> for a particular purpose. Evidently my experiment is invalid.
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
> --
> Paul A Noone
> Webmaster, ASHM
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Lachlan Hunt
> Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2005 2:35 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Justify this
>
> Paul Noone wrote:
> > Hopefully a quick question, I hoope, as the W3C specs are no help on
> > this one.
>
> No, they are usually always helpful but you need to know what you're
> looking
> for.
>
> > I want to centre align text and justify it at the same time. I've
> > applied the following mark-up which, surprisingly, does the trick. But
>
> > can justify be applied as an optional extra parameter, or does this
> > just work through browser quirks?
> >
> > text-align: center justify;
>
> If that does anything at all, it's a browser bug.  That property should
> be
> ignored by a conforming browser.  Centred and justified text are
> mutually
> exclusive options and it makes little sense to combine them like that.
> However, I'm going to assume you're looking for a way to centre the box,
> but
> have the text justified within.  In which case, this should do the
> trick:
>
> p { width: 50%; margin: 0 auto; text-align: justify; }
>
> Just use an appropriate selector and width for your needs.
>
> --
> Lachlan Hunt
> http://lachy.id.au/
>
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>
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>
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Re: [WSG] Nikon's new standards website

[Joshua Street]

Shame about the layout table on the front page. It validates, though
with a pair of warnings I thought would make things fail... apparently
not (but then who actually believes the validator anyway, hey? ;-))

Josh

On 12/15/05, designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.nikonnet.com/
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Bob McClelland
>
> Cornwall (UK)
> www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Mac FF hidden div still shows scrollbars

[Joshua Street]

Maybe use opacity:0 instead? More rules to cater for different
browsers, but might work more reliably... maybe...?

On 12/23/05, Ben Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 12/22/05, Thomas Livingston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi listers,
> >
> > We have a div being hidden (visibility:hidden;) and then using
> > javascript to show hide layers (sort of a pop-up but not sorta thing).
> >
> > If we give it a height and apply overflow:scroll; (or auto) it looks
> > and works dandy, except for Mac FF (1.5). We are still seeing the
> > div's scroll bars when in it's hidden state.
> >
> > Anyone come across this before and fix it?
>
>
> I've seen other evidence that Mac browsers that call the OS for
> elements (scrollbars, buttons, etc.) have trouble with changing styles.
>
> One thing you might try is to have the javascript change the class,
> instead of changing a style attribute. This also helps because you
> just style the two states of the div however you please, and the
> javascript never needs to change.
>
> --
>
>  Ben Curtis : webwright
>  bivia : a personal web studio
>  http://www.bivia.com
>  v: (818) 507-6613
>
>
>
>
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>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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>
>



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[WSG] Dean Edwards IE7... just PNG support?

[Joshua Street]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone's had any luck with using JUST the PNG
component of Dean Edwards' IE7 JavaScript? The full thing seems like
overkill, because that's the only feature I really need.
Alternatively, how does one go about getting alpha support for CSS
background images? Not having a great deal of luck with this...

Regards,
Josh
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Re: [WSG] Dean Edwards IE7... just PNG support?

[Joshua Street]

Hmm, thanks. Should learn to RTF... website... or something :P

HOWEVER! When I do that, IE6 with XPSP2 gives me security warnings and
blocks it by default... then, it kills my typography (though
positioning and image replacement and backgrounds all stay okay)
whilst doing absolutely for PNG support (aside from breaking
background-position: on one PNG-powered background image! but that's
documented so no problems)

Anyone else got security warnings from IE when loading individual
modules of DE-IE7? Or is it just me/draconian security settings here?

Can post example if desired...

Josh

On 12/28/05, Absalom Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joshua Street wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just wondering if anyone's had any luck with using JUST the PNG
> > component of Dean Edwards' IE7 JavaScript? The full thing seems like
> > overkill, because that's the only feature I really need.
> > Alternatively, how does one go about getting alpha support for CSS
> > background images? Not having a great deal of luck with this...
> >
> > Regards,
> > Josh
>
> Josh,
>
> According to the specs for DE-IE7, you can specify a specific module:
>
> 
> 
>
> http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/usage/configure.html
>
> Pick and mix as you want. The graphics JS file should just be the PNG fix.
>
> Lawrence
>
> --
> Lawrence Meckan
>
> Absalom Media
> Mob: (04) 1047 9633
> ABN: 49 286 495 792
> http://www.absalom.biz
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Re: [WSG] Dean Edwards IE7... just PNG support?

[Joshua Street]

Just tried with Sleight (which, incidentally, I'd read about before
but forgotten existed!) and got the same security warning from
IE6/XPSP2. =( Any suggestions welcome at this point! (Except for using
GIFs/indexed transparency :P)


On 12/28/05, Joshua Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmm, thanks. Should learn to RTF... website... or something :P
>
> HOWEVER! When I do that, IE6 with XPSP2 gives me security warnings and
> blocks it by default... then, it kills my typography (though
> positioning and image replacement and backgrounds all stay okay)
> whilst doing absolutely for PNG support (aside from breaking
> background-position: on one PNG-powered background image! but that's
> documented so no problems)
>
> Anyone else got security warnings from IE when loading individual
> modules of DE-IE7? Or is it just me/draconian security settings here?
>
> Can post example if desired...
>
> Josh
>
> On 12/28/05, Absalom Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Joshua Street wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Just wondering if anyone's had any luck with using JUST the PNG
> > > component of Dean Edwards' IE7 JavaScript? The full thing seems like
> > > overkill, because that's the only feature I really need.
> > > Alternatively, how does one go about getting alpha support for CSS
> > > background images? Not having a great deal of luck with this...
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Josh
> >
> > Josh,
> >
> > According to the specs for DE-IE7, you can specify a specific module:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >
> > http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/usage/configure.html
> >
> > Pick and mix as you want. The graphics JS file should just be the PNG fix.
> >
> > Lawrence
> >
> > --
> > Lawrence Meckan
> >
> > Absalom Media
> > Mob: (04) 1047 9633
> > ABN: 49 286 495 792
> > http://www.absalom.biz
> > ******
> > The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> >  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> >  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
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>
> http://www.joahua.com/
> +61 (0) 425 808 469
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[WSG] Multiple Firefox versions

[Joshua Street]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone knows how to install multiple versions of
Firefox on one machine? I'm finding some things render rather
differently on 1.5, and it's not enough to test just on that: from the
stats I watch, Firefox visitors are pretty evenly split between 1.0.x
and 1.5 at the minute (though generally they're faster to adopt newer
versions).

Apologies for a slightly application/not-web-standards related
question... all in the name of testing ;-)

Regards,
Josh


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Re: [WSG] Multiple Firefox versions

[Joshua Street]

Ah, yes, that's what I was trying to do. If I just install both I end
up getting plugins overlapping between installs, and can't run both at
once (I think because of the way it calls new windows?)

Thanks!

Josh

On 1/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Roberto Gorjão wrote:
> > To me it was enough to install different versions in different folders.
> > They work without problems or incompatibilities.
>
> In addition to that I would strongly recommend to set up separate
> profiles for each version, as otherwise you *will* end up with
> incompatibilities and general problems (this also holds true if you want
> to set up a mixed environment of various Mozilla Suite and Netscape
> browser versions).
>
> My usual setup: create a new folder for "Browser profiles" somewhere,
> then do a fresh install of all the various browser versions. Once
> installation is complete, *do not* start the browser by clicking on the
> icon (or by having the option to load it ticked at the end of the
> installer). Instead, open a command line, cd to the installation
> directory, and start it with the profile manager option, e.g.
>
> c:\program files\mozilla firefox 1.5\firefox -profilemanager
>
> Now, set up a new profile for each browser, and make sure that it's
> saved as a new sub-directory of your "Browser profiles" folder. I
> usually tend to name them after their relevant browser version.
>
> Also, make sure to check the option in the manager to show it at
> startup, otherwise there is a risk that your latest profile is used,
> regardless of which browser you're starting.
>
> Hope this made some sense,
>
> P
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